Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!

[OCD #1]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike:

There’s lots of data to get to.

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You use the word "data" more than Captain Pickard -->

why call it "data" if it is "truth"?

sometimes we spend time trying to convince others, when it is really ourselves we are trying to convince

Good Luck, Mike

and Happy New Year, peeps!

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Vertical Limit]

I forgot to add that of course I think you can follow anything you want!!!

But be warned that you do so at a great risk to yourself and those around you if you choose to embrace vpw's work.

[Mike]

Mark S, you asked on the previous page if Dr ever taught unscripturally. Page 83 of the PFAL book says "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."

The implication is that SOME writings ARE God-breathed. However SOME are not.

So some of his writing are authored by him via his senses understanding, and he, being human, HAD to have some things unscriptural in those. Consequently in speaking he had to be wrong even more.

So which of his teachings are God-breathed and which are not? GOOD QUESTION. It deserves a good investigation and lots of pondering. I've been working this for 5 years. May I suggest that you investigate this question with the same or greater vigor as you looked into the horror stories?

[This message was edited by Mike on January 01, 2003 at 10:17.]

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Mike]

Vertical L.

we don't have those scriptures to go to. Only the tattered remnants. See my post titled "Feelings" for more data. I believe Jesus Christ made it available for Dr to receive these revelations. Don't you think he knows there are flaws in all the texts?

OCD#1

I say data because it's some truth and some facts. They're different.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 01, 2003 at 22:04.]

Edited January 2, 2003 by Guest

[Mike]

Vertical L

look at the "fruit" of Jesus' ministry 2000 years ago. For 1500 years it was the Roman Catholic church only. Or maybe that wasn't his fault, but theirs?

You may have worked those books, BUT you didn't MASTER them like we were told to do in 1979, 81, 84, and 1985. That's how many times I found Dr telling us these things on tape. You dabbled, now you blame him for your falling short in receiving. I did this too, so I know how easy it is. It is possible to change and try again if the proper motivation is offered. That's my goal here.

I see a greater risk in placing my bet on a churchianity tradition that has failed for 2000 years to produce even ONE Christian who can do ALL the things Jesus Christ did and greater, plus invent a 3-headed god, plus many other horrors. I feel VERY safe. I chose this route very carefully and was totally aware of the risk.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 01, 2003 at 10:19.]

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[WordWolf]

A) If you meant to say we should examine what

vpw taught & wrote, & see what was in line with

Scripture & what wasn't, well, then, that's

something almost ALL of us agree on.

In fact, many of us have been doing that for

MORE than 5 years, which makes you a latecomer

to the party. :)--> (You cited 5 years.)

B) You said we don't really have Scriptures,

"only the tattered remnants."

That's not what I learned in pfal. With the

exception of a tiny handful of verses

deliberately forged to promote a doctrine, it's

been fundamentally unchanged. The main

problems, as pfal said, were in man's not

READING the Bible, and not UNDERSTANDING what

the Bible says. Virtually all notes I make on

an English version are directly from the

Greek-the Stephens Text or the Nestle Text.

Supposedly, that's what the translators worked

from when they made the versions. I'm just

proofreading their work from the Greek texts.

Inasmuch as I virtually never need to exit the

Greek texts (on the New Testament) & wonder

where something came from, it seems obvious to

me that the GREEK is nearly 100%. So long as

the GREEK is translated correctly, so long as

the Bible is actually read, and so long as

one is reading with comprehension, there should

be few problems with understanding Scripture.

"Tattered remnants"? I think NOT.

------------------------------------------

C) You offered 2 possibilities:

1) the Christian tradition-'churchianity'

2) "Mastering" vpw's books.

I choose 3) Attempting to "Master" the Bible,

irregardless of what vpw or anyone else

said about it. If their teaching holds up,

great, if not, I trash it.

None of us was suggesting the denominational

structures offered the answers vpw was also

lacking. Suggesting we did was intellectually

dishonest, & possibly quite revealing.

[Mike]

WordWolf

The 5 years I cited was since I decided to totally believe Dr's claims to have God-breathed written revelation.

The 27 years prior to that I checked out VPW teaching against the existing scriptures.

As for tattered remnants, it's mostly in the areas that most threaten the devil that things get heavily tampered with. Things like the power, the mystery, Christ’s return, agape love over phileo, things like that. And it's more than just the earliest copies being botched. Many other things cause the scriptures to be "tattered" like language changes, culture changes etc. These other things obscure the meaning of what has survived.

The early copies were done by a reprobate church that had rejected Paul and the mystery. They were also under heavy persecution. They had no spiritual supervision, and they were inserting things like trintitarian formulas at a VERY early date. Because of the scarcity of evidence, we are only aware of some of these miscopies and forgeries that go back only so far. Even earlier copies have escaped modern detection as flawed, but there are indirect ways of seeing some, like profane literature that quotes even earlier texts, ones that are long gone. Then there are other forgeries that are totally obscured by time and chaos.

Have you ever wondered when the critical Greek texts were written? When was the ink still wet on the Stevens text?

Many to most grads are SHOCKED when they learn the dates of the critical Greek texts. Do you know when Stevens lived, or the other producers of critical texts? You can look it up in the introduction to your interlinear.

Do you know WHY the critical Greek texts were produced? Look it up: it's due to the GREAT variance in the ancient fragments. That's all we have from the ancient texts: fragments. What's worse is these fragments vary greatly one from another.

The earliest critical Greek text, the Stevens, had its ink still wet in 1550!

The purpose for the production of the critical texts was to fix, repair the variance problems, the tattered remnants of the ancient scriptures. And this was done in MODERN TIMES by scholars, almost all of which were trinitatarians. What’s worse is some were rank unbelievers. What’s STILL worse is some were of the wrong seed. And ladies, some were male chauvinist pigs. It was in style then, especially in the upper crust which these academics were.

Sure God had His infiltrators, but what percentage really worked with Him and for him?

So who do you trust? Trust these unknown scholars, some of whom could be FAR worse than even the most exaggerated horror stories we’ve heard of, even of Craig? Or trust Dr and PFAL? There’s a lot to think about.

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Hi Mike:

Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit. You know you could have come to that conclusion without having to consult the PFAL book. Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles.

Mike, in past years I studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously. You should see my bible. There are a few sections of scripture in my old bible that are filled with notes like you probably have never seen before. In studying and writing these notes I found that much of the technical biblical work of VP Wierwille actually came from E.W. Bullinger.

Today, however, I try to be more well rounded in my outside study sources. I try to learn from a number of teachers rather than just a few. I think that this is biblically safer and brings me a more well rounded biblical knowledge. However, there is something to be said for Victor Wierwille's suggestion from the PFAL class that we get rid of our outside biblical reading material at times and just go to the scriptures and let them speak for themselves. Of course, if we were to really follow this we would have to include Victor Wierwille's works in this as well. Maybe you should literally follow what VPW said and put away your PFAL books for a while and just study the bible. You know he also said this in the class regarding commentaries and VPW's material would have to be considered a form of commentary as well.

You know I have done some study already in dissecting VPW's material as to what is truth and what is error. However, over the last number of years I have mainly done my own independent studies. You see I am somewhat of a Christian writer also and I have endeavered to do some godly writing that is inspired by the holy spirit as well. However, if you want the opinion of someone that has spent a lot of time working the PFAL material to determine some of what is true and not true you should get Rafael's opinion. Also a Christian man by the name of Barrax (I think that is how his name is spelled) has also done a great deal of study of the PFAL class material.

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Lifted Up]

Rafael wrote...

"It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day."

What weather reports? I have been staying out of this for some reasons, but I can't help being curious about that statement.

Just from a weather reporting point of view, a snow shower such as that in question would be unlikely to show up (or proof that it didn't happen) in any old weather reports, unless the point in question is precisely at an observing and reporting point for weather data. General conditions...the high and low temperature for that given day and whether or not there was precipitation...at even a very a nearby point...just will not tell you either way.

I experienced a very brief and local but intense snow shower one day back in 1979 when I was running near HQ. One minute it was not snowing, the next minute the snow was almost blinding, and fell hard enough to whiten the ground; five minutes later it was gone. Just a couple miles away, it evidently did not snow at all. I have actually seen that kind of thing a number of times; most noteably in the mountains of central PA, but here it was happening in fairly flat country.

The same idea of extreme local weather variations happens in warm weather. I sometimes have a fun time explaining to insurance people, or their clients, that I cannot tell them for sure that there was or was not a storm causing damaging winds at their precise location, because we had no reports either way at the particular time and date they are interested in. (It is easy to be out in the boonies around where I live and work). Sometimes of course I can tell them for sure there was nothing around...of course these calls are not for weather from sixty years ago, either.

Of course, if there were evidence that the temperature was close to, say eighty degrees at the time in question, then the occurrence of a snow shower at that time might be deemed implausible...just like the creation of a dry area across the red Sea by a strong east wind.

[Vertical Limit]

What makes you think I didn't master those books. I didn't question your statement on that fact.

You don't know what you think you know.

[Vertical Limit]

Let's look at your fruit;

Arrogant

Closeminded

Everyone is wrong but me

I have done this

I have done that

Talk bad about churches

Treat everyone like second class people

Tell everyone that you cannot understand scripture because of the translations and lack of originals

My class is the only answer

Yep pfal and the books-you are doing great.

You would make vp proud.

God thinks it sucks

[Abigail]

I saw the post regarding Howard Allen and the pool game. I asked Kaisersushiverbalkint84 about it because he has spent about 10 years playing in pool halls.

More than likely, given the time this story supposedly took place, the big gambling game was straight pool (14.1 to the purists). The game involves shooting all the balls until the cue ball and an object ball are left on the table. The object is to make the last ball from the previous rack and continue shooting, which is how you get 15 balls.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[Mike]

Lifted Up

Thank you SOOOO much for saving me of that weather task. I knew all the things that you witnesses were possible, but how could I have stated it as briefly as you? BRAVO

Shame on some of you GreaseSpoters for not having thought of this yourselves! Now you know why I distanced myself from YOUR snow job.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 01, 2003 at 10:48.]

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Mike]

Lifted Up

Thank you SOOOO much for posting that data on how the weather can work. I could never have typed it out so briefly. I knew that transients like that can happen, but I never witnessed them first hand. Weather can have fluctuations like the ocean can have rogue waves.

So, why didn't some of you GreaseSpotters ever think of this? Are you ashamed?

This is the second time I posted this. It got deleted. Also twice this morning, when I went into edit some PUNCTUATION in previous posts, I got, instead of an acceptance, something else.

It said my edit was being reviewed by the administration for "one or more trigger words." IT WAS PUNCTUATION I had submitted.

AM I BEING CENSORED? I tried to sene an e-mail to cyberlarson but it came back unopened.

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Vertical Limit]

I don't think you are being censored. Certain things trigger a review automatically that are insignificant. I have the same things happen on some chat boards. Certain combinations of words and numbers even.

Speak on

[Mike]

NOW the deleted post is back. Maybe THAT was a glitch. Maybe they put it back..

My original post accidently ommitted the letters "Spott" when I meant to type "GreaseSpoters" . Maybe my editing temporarily deleted it.

However the "trigger words" message came up twice earlier as mentioned. I'm new here, please excuse my technical errors. It really gave me a feeling I was being monitored. If that's the case it would be proper to be so informed. If I'm just being paranoid it's only because everyone is out to get me. (joke)

[Mike]

Thanks Vert. Does anyone have a Valium?

[Hope R.]

Mike - sometimes letters in a word can trigger a post to go into the moderation queue. I've had my posts go into the queue, and couldn't figure out what word or words I'd used to trigger it. Then I saw that sometimes words within a word could make that occur.

I'm sure that a moderator has looked at your posts and approved them. I know they are busy people and appreciate the work they do to keep GS as problem free as possible.

Hope R. color>size>face>

P.S. No valium - but I've got some Prozac - perhaps that would help!

Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Oakspear]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike:

...Page 83 of the PFAL book says "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."

The implication is that SOME writings ARE God-breathed. However SOME are not.

So which of his teachings are God-breathed and which are not? GOOD QUESTION.

---

Once again, we have circular reasoning here, some of Wierwille's writings are God-breathed, because Wiewrwille implied as such!

"So which of his teachings are God-breathed and which are not?"

How about examining each one for accuracy like you would anyone else? What you have been doing, Mike, is claiming that "because VP said it, it's true", using his own words about himself and his writings as proof of authentticity of those same writings.

Oakspear

...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...

[firebee]

Hope

If you got any extra, send a few this way

[cyasurfin]

To all YOU wonderful (ex?)who think that Mike is so far off base. WHY DON'T YOU TRY MASTERING THE PFAL SERIES . DO YOU GUYS REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE "FIVE SENSES" UNDERSTANDING AND THE "SPIRITUAL" UNDERSTANDING, PFAL HAS BOTH. SAME WORDS, DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING. ONLY BY MASTERING IT WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE. THE CHALLENGE IS YOURS- GOD BLESS

[Danny]

cy Why don't you put your name up here so we can see how strong your are in the word. By my reasoning i can see you really understand. And you really think God will Bless me because you said it. What's your chaper and vers on that one?

[firebee]

Didya really have to yell that loud, Cy

You said and I quote:

"DO YOU GUYS REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE "FIVE SENSES" UNDERSTANDING AND THE "SPIRITUAL" UNDERSTANDING, PFAL HAS BOTH. SAME WORDS, DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING. ONLY BY MASTERING IT WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE. THE CHALLENGE IS YOURS- GOD BLESS"

After cleaning my sore ears from the yelling, if I master PFAL in all of its God-breathed glory, does that get me one step closer to heaven? If it does then I will climb on that Glory train.

If it doesn't get me any closer, may I yell back "GO TO HELL YOU HERETIC.....GOD BLESS"

There is no challenge

Edited January 1, 2003 by Guest

[Abigail]

Cya,

Why don't I master PFAL? How about for starters because I simply have no interest in "mastering it". PFAL is not God, nor The Word of God. VPW is not Jesus Christ, the son of God, nor in my not so humble opinion, a representative of God.

If God wants to teach me something, He is perfectly capable of doing so. I don't need you to tell me what to do, neither does God.

"UNDERSTANDING AND THE "SPIRITUAL" UNDERSTANDING, PFAL HAS BOTH. SAME WORDS, DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING. ONLY BY MASTERING IT WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE."

Oh goody, as if there weren't enough religions and denominations within religions, now we can have different denominations of TWI arguing over the interpretation of VPW's works too. Just what the world needs.

So here's my question for you.........

Why don't you focus a little more on your own life instead of telling us what to do?

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[cyasurfin]

I'm glad that I was not expecting a positive response. You folks are a tough crowd!. Bye the way, Abagail- My own life is wonderful: great family, fellowship ,great job. good surf and a God whose Word I understand. Love Ya' all