Firebee, I did NOT post her name. I veiled it just enough I thought.
It's some of YOU GUYS here who blew it for me and her and are still dragging it around here. Look at the record. If Abigail hadn't kept bringing it up, it would have been buried by now, but Noooooooooo. She had to get on my case at the expense of mj.
I'm sorry mj or s. These people are out to get me and they don't care if they hurt you in the process. I really do apologize for having tried to answer you back. I should have ignored what you said, but then the'd go after me for that. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.
Abigail, I really tried to say hi to her, and peace be with her, AS she was pummeling me, without overtly giving out her name. You should be ashamed!
I want to post the magazine article that my last big post left off with so that people who weren't around in '79 or who no longer have their mags can know what I'm talking about.
I have sent Paw an e-mail asking permission, and am waiting a reply.
I noticed he allowed alfakat to do that on his WOV post, but the way you folks behave here, I don't know if the same rules apply to me as to him. There is a total double standard around here with you folks.
I think Paw will let me, but I think it's best to ask. He has not exhibited the hypocricy (sp) that some others wallow in here.
Do I smell twi?
I'm late for work. This is hard to leave. Everyone stop posting here for a while so that I can feel free to go to work, OK
I have tried to, tried to be patient as well as understanding of your positions and feelings.
Don't blame Abigail or anyone else for the length of time this "mj412 debate" has raged on. You could simply get off of the subject yourself and resume the thread as you started it.
Post away to your hearts desire.......just keep people's name and or identity out of it, if in fact you know the truth of who they are.
THAT individual at whatever time they choose may or may not reveal themselves. Until any individual "reveals" who they are, it IS NOT up to anyone else to compromise............in speculative terms or otherwise.
Earlier in this discussion, I asked Mike to address the problem of Wierwille's contradiction with regard to the term "all without distinction." To briefly summarize:
In PFAL, p. 65, Wierwille writes "all WITHOUT distinction means everyone in a certain designated class or group."
However, in Jesus Christ is Not God, p. 94, he writes, "all WITH distinction means that there are no exceptions within a certain group."
In other words "all WITHOUT distinction" and "all WITH distinction" mean exactly the same thing. I call this a contradiction, while Mike thinks it's only an apparent contradiction. Mike's reply was that the words "the fact" on p. 94 of JCNG help establish that we're dealing with a senses observation.
Mike, I challenge you to expand on this utterly meaningless distraction to make it relevant to your point. The term "the fact" is dealing with the second half of John 1:3, and by that time Wierwille is discussing "all without exception" again. It has NOTHING to do with "all with distinction," and thus has nothing to do with the substance of this contradiction.
On the basis of this ONE CONTRADICTION alone, by your standard, you must conclude that either JCNG or PFAL is NOT God-breathed. So, which is it?
You have every right to speak your mind as you see fit regarding VPW's material. I doubt anyone really minds.
My son took over my computer last night and I ended up turning the tv on only to see a PBS rerun of an old Lawrence Welk show....kinda reminded me of your VPW posts...all tired and worn out, but we all were there at one time or another in our lives.
When you said VP's writings carried the same authority as Pauls, I about fell out of my chair...but 18 years ago, I'd have agreed with you...and that embarrasses me.
Here are some suggestions for other dead hosses you can beat for a while that are equally interesting, but won't generate nearly the negative feedback...
Was Paul McCartney really dead? (we know he isn't now, but was he back then when they had him barefoot on the Abbey Road album?)
Who shot J.R.?
Was it morally right for Capt. Pike to go finish his days in a dream world on that planet with those guys with the pulsating brains?
Was Morton Downey Jr. really a nazi?
Your posts are kind of a trip down memory lane. But I think for some folks here, it might be like the taste of bourbon to a recovering alcoholic.
******************************
In a real world and just society, lazy critters eat last.
Oh, Ron,, that was a VERY LOW BLOWcomparing my dearly beloved Lawrence Welk with Herr Vierville's spewings. Gosh, the Lemon Sisters make me all gooey eyed and slack-jawed to this day with their sweet harmonies.
The GSC does have an element of taboo - its own dogma brewing, and it also has its factions, though these will never be as defined as TWI. They are there, nonetheless. All gatherings have them.
And I don't think Mike's head is much farther up his arse than any of the rest of us. Compared to some, maybe even less. His present logical obsession just happens to be the very antagonist of this site. Lucky him.
Mike, please stick around. I like reading your posts. They are inspiring. Like I may have mentioned before, I think your willingness to forgive is noble and rare. I appreciate it.
But here's another "classic" you might wanna revisit:
"Bear with me a little, and I will show that there are yet words to speak on God's behalf. I will fetch my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. For truly my words are not false; one who is perfect in knowledge is with you."
~ Elihu to the man who was down (You know the book and chapter).
...I'm still waiting.
And Mike, don't close yourself off from learning here (if you haven't already figured that out). And I don't mean in the "behold the ants" sense, but a gen-you-wine respect for the truths of the GSC. There are some giants here (whether they know it or not). Let them change your life.
quote:Remember too that Dr. Wierwille died from cancer. It was his own teaching in the Advanced Class that cancer is always a devil spirit. Yet, despite the evident sexual abuse, not one of the Board of Trustees apparently cast the devil spirits out of him, nor did he apparently believe God to rid himself of it. Who knows when he was first possessed by it? Which books hadn't he written at that time?
Since God supposedly theopneustosed the whole PFAL class to VPW, yet VPW contracted cancer (via devil spirit) well before his Last Teaching, how are we supposed to tell which words there are God-breathed, and which are devil spirit lies?
Just a quickie. Some more possibilities about cancer to bring into the mix.
1. Can a devil spirit simply START a cancer, then depart, and from that point on it's totally a natural biochemical rat race that consumes the flesh?
2. What is the difference between a devil attacking the mind and attacking a skin cell or a liver cell?
3. Can a man say to God, let me die, I'm tired. I finished the job you gave me, so wake me up when it's all over. Can God accommodate him by withdrawing protection?
4. Do you remember the difference between possession and oppression?
These 4 NEW data points have never entered the discussion here, as far as I've seen, nor any single verbal conversation I have been in or heard about in 17 years.
Maybe I'm partially wrong on this, and one or two of you have discussed one or two of these points on one or two occasions.
But, for the vast majority of you, because you choose to think evil, these possibilities have escaped your perceptions, and they never occurred to you. Let’s see how much they come up from now on. None? It’s your choice to think good or evil? Which will it be.?
I’m turning off my computer for the next several hours. Talk amongst yourselves. It’ll be interesting when I get back to see how quickly these new points are discarded. At least give them about 10 seconds each. That’ll almost be a full minute. I choose to think these through for another 17 years at least.
"These 4 NEW data points have never entered the discussion here, as far as I've seen, nor any single verbal conversation I have been in or heard about in 17 years."
Maybe its because its just NOW that you bring them up. Maybe? Huh? So if there is any blame for us not doing so, how about sharing in that blame, ya think?
"But, for the vast majority of you, because you choose to think evil, these possibilities have escaped your perceptions, ..." and further implications that we are supposedly just *chomping at the bit* to, in 'davilish' like manner of course, attack the Word and its Messenger, cause thats *really* what is at the base of all our motivations, isn't it, Mike? It has to be! I mean, it just cannot be because maybe we might have **valid** complaints about what the man taught or did; thus, according to what it says in I and II Timothy and Titus, holding VPW to the same standard to any other spokesman of God. (Not to mention the part in Deauteronomy that says that if someone says that he is a prophet of God, and prophesies anything that doesn't come to pass, then he's a fake & a fraud, and there have been plenty of places where VPW have Spake as a Man of God, and oopsie, it didn't pan out.)
Nahhh, it just cannot be that way, can it Mike, lest it might have that ugly possibility of undermining this Gospel of VPW and PFAL being THE Word of God, and more being like many other Bible classes everywhere else, except PFAL was taught by some minister who ultimatily allowed the desires of the flesh and pride to overtake his ministry.
And you are obligated to not even begin to consider that now, would you, Mike? Like you'll pi** God off if you did?
"It’ll be interesting when I get back to see how quickly these new points are discarded. At least give them about 10 seconds each. That’ll almost be a full minute. I choose to think these through for another 17 years at least."
A lie, considered for 10 seconds, or for 17 years, ... still remains a lie, Mike. Your attitude of "Look at all-l the years that *I* have spent on all of this about VPW and PFAL, so that proves me right" didn't work for someone else here who was so anal about the Illuminati, and it ain't gonna work for you either.
Face it, Wierwille and TWI had their chance at really making a difference in the world. They screwed up. Looks like back to the drawing board.
Okay, I gave Mike's four "data points" the requisite 40 seconds of consideration - approximately 39 seconds longer than they actually deserve.
Your data points are theologically ignorant and immature, biblically unsound, post hoc cya-type material for a false prophet who died of the self-same cancer he so loudly, heartlessly and pompously jeered in others. Kept his cancer quiet, too, lest it be puff of wind that brought down his entire house-of-cards theological ediface.
Are you actually questioning the Master Grifter's tactic of keeping the cancer completely under wraps rather than opening the issue up for debate and risking the credibility of ALL of his punishingly hairbrained theological sophistries? Why take such a tremendous risk when you can simply lie about your cancer? Lying worked so well for so many situations in the past, didn't it?
Served the self-important, whining, maudlin self-pitying bilge pump hose monster RIGHT to die of cancer!
it was mainly an effort to let you know it's a BIG world out there.....and there is no such thing as absolute "free reign", although you are enjoying something close to that here
you have obviously chosen GS to promote your views
i believe you would've been ridiculed beyond imagination, or completely ignored in just about any other forum on this planet
you are working the emotions of the people here because you are comfortable in the past associations
personally, i feel as if you are going through a "mid-life" crisis, and besides your profession, Way knowledge is maybe the only other thing you're good at....I'm going through similar life changes...it's cool
quote:1. Can a devil spirit simply START a cancer, then depart, and from that point on it's totally a natural biochemical rat race that consumes the flesh?
I was always unclear about the whole "cancer is a devil spirit" teaching. If I recall correctly, VP, at least early on said that cancer was a devil spirit because it had a life of it's own. Not that it was caused by a devil spirit. There is evidence biblically that devil spirits can cause sickness:
Luke 13:11 - "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up [herself]."
Frankly, I think there was a lot about devil spirits that was pure speculation on Wierwille's part. So, in answer to your question Mike...maybe!
I don't agree with the statement: 'the uncontrolled growth of a cancer cell equals independent life therefore it's a spirit'. My opinion, based on a layman's knowledege of cancer, is that cancer is just one of the many weaknesses of the corruptible seed that we are born of.
I don't think Wierwille had to have been possessed to get cancer, for it to start, or for it to kill him. But he said it. I'm not the one who thinks his words are God-breathed.
quote:2. What is the difference between a devil attacking the mind and attacking a skin cell or a liver cell?
I do not see where the bible goes into any detail on the mechanics of possession or devil spirit attacks in any form. People got possessed δαιμονιζομαι - demonized and did things that they would not ordinarily do, or suffered things they wouldn't otherwise suffer. The spirits got driven out, and they were fine. We aren't given much information on how it happens, or if they are attacking soul life, or individual brain cells, so we don't really know. Wierwille didn't know either.
quote:3. Can a man say to God, let me die, I'm tired. I finished the job you gave me, so wake me up when it's all over. Can God accommodate him by withdrawing protection?
Well, the devil is the author of death. Wierwille taught that death was always of the devil, didn't he?
Martindale qualified this in some of his teachings and actually taught that someone could "die in believing", knowing when they would die, or giving up the ghost.
If God did something like this, wouldn't he allow his man, if he was godly, to go peacefully, instead of losing his eye and having his body ravaged by cancer?
quote:4. Do you remember the difference between possession and oppression?
I believe possession was control, oppression was an attack from outside without the person being possessed. Why?
quote:These 4 NEW data points have never entered the discussion here, as far as I've seen...
They have. I wish I could find the references and archived threads.
I'm sure what you say could be true, but they seem to be in opposition to what VP taught. It was even brought up because Vic spent time early on saying how evil cancer was, even to where people who had family who were dying of cancer were made to feel badly about it, but his tune changed when he got it.
quote:...nor any single verbal conversation I have been in or heard about in 17 years.
Gee Mike, just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean someone hasn't discussed it.
quote:Maybe I'm partially wrong on this, and one or two of you have discussed one or two of these points on one or two occasions.
And maybe you're very wrong and many of us have discussed it on many occassions. Or maybe, like you, we heard all the evidence years ago and made up our minds.
quote:But, for the vast majority of you, because you choose to think evil,
It's not thinking evil when you recognize evil in someone and point it out. Was Jesus thinking evil of the Pharisees? Was Nathan thinking evil of David?
quote:these possibilities have escaped your perceptions, and they never occurred to you.
You assume much. Just because the topics of conversation do not fall in line with what you think they should be, it hasn't occurred to us?
quote:It’ll be interesting when I get back to see how quickly these new points are discarded. At least give them about 10 seconds each. That’ll almost be a full minute.
Here I is Miguelito! What do you want to talk about?
It's interesting taht you a man who proudly asserts that he will not listen to opinions contrary to the ones that he has previously come to; chastises those here who he thinks don't consider his views.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
We've talked about VPW and his views on cancer before. He said people with cancer were possessed. Not oppressed, and not "attacking a skin cell" but not the mind. Those were his views, not mine. He was wrong about so many things.
Many of those wrong things were included in a class called Power for Abundant Living. Much of that has already been covered in this thread. He believed many other wrong things that were manifested in the way he lived his life and interacted with others. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Booze to excess, adultery, rages, chauvinism. Did you ever stop to think that, while he was bragging that he did nothing but study the Word nonstop for so many years, he was neglecting his wife and children? Apparently, he didn't much believe in the Book he was teaching. I never saw an example in the Bible of God showering an abundance of revelation on the ungodly.
Then I look at how you have conducted yourself. Whining one minute, attacking posters the next. If you insult us, that's okay; but if someone else calls you WRONG, you are getting picked on, according to you. You are also disrespectful of the boundaries of one or two of the women posters here. Yup, sounds a lot like the guy you admire.
Please don't bother to e-mail me. I will not respond. I have no interest in the gospel you preach. It does not result in a life that I would want to live.
Just a quickie. Some more possibilities about cancer to bring into the mix...
Possibilities? No sir. The Word is not subject to your private interpretation. This was the Advanced Class on PFAL, the vital revelation of the operations of two-thirds of the manifestations of the spirit. Dr. Wierwille would not have lied to us on such a vital issue.
Neither was he mistaken. This was the man who healed the paralyzed arm of a man in Jubbulpore, and cast all number of spirits out of a possessed woman there as well. You can't do those sort of things and not know what you're talking about.
Doctor said cancer is always a devil spirit. He was unequivocal on the matter. Trying to discern spiritual matters via five-senses knowledge "possibilities" is a tool of the Adversary.
Where is your believing that you could be so deceived in this matter?
ya know it's bad when they can use your own creed against you
Zix, that was incredible
damn, i think i'm smart until i read some others' posts
Mike, you are obviously growing on some people here OR they see it as THEIR mission to enlighten YOU!
tables turned! :D-->
as heartbreaking as it is to many of us, The Way was a utopian boat that didn't float ....we outlived it
I'm currently trying to figure out why God wrote the screenplay in the first place!!??
after all "HE" created the whole damn thing and "has foreknowledge" ....it's starting to look like a drawn out soap opera, too much glamour and drama for me
Yo GOD! cut to the chase ....
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning....."
Genesis 1:2 should read " and they were gathered together, forever to be with the Lord"
END OF STORY
"God wanted a family" --> ....sounds like "his" problem
Don't you feel like a freakin pawn/puppet in some imaginary spiritual warfare?
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Mike
Firebee, I did NOT post her name. I veiled it just enough I thought.
It's some of YOU GUYS here who blew it for me and her and are still dragging it around here. Look at the record. If Abigail hadn't kept bringing it up, it would have been buried by now, but Noooooooooo. She had to get on my case at the expense of mj.
I'm sorry mj or s. These people are out to get me and they don't care if they hurt you in the process. I really do apologize for having tried to answer you back. I should have ignored what you said, but then the'd go after me for that. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.
Abigail, I really tried to say hi to her, and peace be with her, AS she was pummeling me, without overtly giving out her name. You should be ashamed!
I want to post the magazine article that my last big post left off with so that people who weren't around in '79 or who no longer have their mags can know what I'm talking about.
I have sent Paw an e-mail asking permission, and am waiting a reply.
I noticed he allowed alfakat to do that on his WOV post, but the way you folks behave here, I don't know if the same rules apply to me as to him. There is a total double standard around here with you folks.
I think Paw will let me, but I think it's best to ask. He has not exhibited the hypocricy (sp) that some others wallow in here.
Do I smell twi?
I'm late for work. This is hard to leave. Everyone stop posting here for a while so that I can feel free to go to work, OK
Abigail, that was a reaquest not a command.
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Raf
must....resist...posting...
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firebee
Mike
I have tried to, tried to be patient as well as understanding of your positions and feelings.
Don't blame Abigail or anyone else for the length of time this "mj412 debate" has raged on. You could simply get off of the subject yourself and resume the thread as you started it.
Post away to your hearts desire.......just keep people's name and or identity out of it, if in fact you know the truth of who they are.
THAT individual at whatever time they choose may or may not reveal themselves. Until any individual "reveals" who they are, it IS NOT up to anyone else to compromise............in speculative terms or otherwise.
Post on dude........
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Mike
I accept. I Am getting a little crabby here.
I still need to get Paw's permission though. Anyone know his phone number can ask himn for me.
Rafael, thanks for making me laugh. I needed it.
By the way I'm ringing your phone right now. It's justringing.
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Raf
Back to "The Fact."
Earlier in this discussion, I asked Mike to address the problem of Wierwille's contradiction with regard to the term "all without distinction." To briefly summarize:
In PFAL, p. 65, Wierwille writes "all WITHOUT distinction means everyone in a certain designated class or group."
However, in Jesus Christ is Not God, p. 94, he writes, "all WITH distinction means that there are no exceptions within a certain group."
In other words "all WITHOUT distinction" and "all WITH distinction" mean exactly the same thing. I call this a contradiction, while Mike thinks it's only an apparent contradiction. Mike's reply was that the words "the fact" on p. 94 of JCNG help establish that we're dealing with a senses observation.
Mike, I challenge you to expand on this utterly meaningless distraction to make it relevant to your point. The term "the fact" is dealing with the second half of John 1:3, and by that time Wierwille is discussing "all without exception" again. It has NOTHING to do with "all with distinction," and thus has nothing to do with the substance of this contradiction.
On the basis of this ONE CONTRADICTION alone, by your standard, you must conclude that either JCNG or PFAL is NOT God-breathed. So, which is it?
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Raf
double post
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Raf
Because I'm on the Internet. Call later.
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Ron G.
Mike...
You have every right to speak your mind as you see fit regarding VPW's material. I doubt anyone really minds.
My son took over my computer last night and I ended up turning the tv on only to see a PBS rerun of an old Lawrence Welk show....kinda reminded me of your VPW posts...all tired and worn out, but we all were there at one time or another in our lives.
When you said VP's writings carried the same authority as Pauls, I about fell out of my chair...but 18 years ago, I'd have agreed with you...and that embarrasses me.
Here are some suggestions for other dead hosses you can beat for a while that are equally interesting, but won't generate nearly the negative feedback...
Was Paul McCartney really dead? (we know he isn't now, but was he back then when they had him barefoot on the Abbey Road album?)
Who shot J.R.?
Was it morally right for Capt. Pike to go finish his days in a dream world on that planet with those guys with the pulsating brains?
Was Morton Downey Jr. really a nazi?
Your posts are kind of a trip down memory lane. But I think for some folks here, it might be like the taste of bourbon to a recovering alcoholic.
******************************
In a real world and just society, lazy critters eat last.
If any care to feed them.
DEO VINDICE!!
Ron G.
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Abigail
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[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 3:07.]
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Larry P2
Oh, Ron,, that was a VERY LOW BLOWcomparing my dearly beloved Lawrence Welk with Herr Vierville's spewings. Gosh, the Lemon Sisters make me all gooey eyed and slack-jawed to this day with their sweet harmonies.
Lord, are we REALLY getting to be that old?
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firebee
I'm afraid so Larry, we really are getting that old.....................
:(-->
sitting at the foot of our parent's bed, watching the B & W tv..............
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sirguessalot
I agree.
The GSC does have an element of taboo - its own dogma brewing, and it also has its factions, though these will never be as defined as TWI. They are there, nonetheless. All gatherings have them.
And I don't think Mike's head is much farther up his arse than any of the rest of us. Compared to some, maybe even less. His present logical obsession just happens to be the very antagonist of this site. Lucky him.
Mike, please stick around. I like reading your posts. They are inspiring. Like I may have mentioned before, I think your willingness to forgive is noble and rare. I appreciate it.
But here's another "classic" you might wanna revisit:
"Bear with me a little, and I will show that there are yet words to speak on God's behalf. I will fetch my knowledge from afar; I will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. For truly my words are not false; one who is perfect in knowledge is with you."
~ Elihu to the man who was down (You know the book and chapter).
...I'm still waiting.
And Mike, don't close yourself off from learning here (if you haven't already figured that out). And I don't mean in the "behold the ants" sense, but a gen-you-wine respect for the truths of the GSC. There are some giants here (whether they know it or not). Let them change your life.
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Zixar
Just thought I'd bring this back up, too.
Since God supposedly theopneustosed the whole PFAL class to VPW, yet VPW contracted cancer (via devil spirit) well before his Last Teaching, how are we supposed to tell which words there are God-breathed, and which are devil spirit lies?
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Zixar
Another thing. Remind me again how adultery is now not only acceptable, but actually required of the "Man of God"?
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Mike
Zix,
Just a quickie. Some more possibilities about cancer to bring into the mix.
1. Can a devil spirit simply START a cancer, then depart, and from that point on it's totally a natural biochemical rat race that consumes the flesh?
2. What is the difference between a devil attacking the mind and attacking a skin cell or a liver cell?
3. Can a man say to God, let me die, I'm tired. I finished the job you gave me, so wake me up when it's all over. Can God accommodate him by withdrawing protection?
4. Do you remember the difference between possession and oppression?
These 4 NEW data points have never entered the discussion here, as far as I've seen, nor any single verbal conversation I have been in or heard about in 17 years.
Maybe I'm partially wrong on this, and one or two of you have discussed one or two of these points on one or two occasions.
But, for the vast majority of you, because you choose to think evil, these possibilities have escaped your perceptions, and they never occurred to you. Let’s see how much they come up from now on. None? It’s your choice to think good or evil? Which will it be.?
I’m turning off my computer for the next several hours. Talk amongst yourselves. It’ll be interesting when I get back to see how quickly these new points are discarded. At least give them about 10 seconds each. That’ll almost be a full minute. I choose to think these through for another 17 years at least.
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GarthP2000
Mikey,
"These 4 NEW data points have never entered the discussion here, as far as I've seen, nor any single verbal conversation I have been in or heard about in 17 years."
Maybe its because its just NOW that you bring them up. Maybe? Huh? So if there is any blame for us not doing so, how about sharing in that blame, ya think?
"But, for the vast majority of you, because you choose to think evil, these possibilities have escaped your perceptions, ..." and further implications that we are supposedly just *chomping at the bit* to, in 'davilish' like manner of course, attack the Word and its Messenger, cause thats *really* what is at the base of all our motivations, isn't it, Mike? It has to be! I mean, it just cannot be because maybe we might have **valid** complaints about what the man taught or did; thus, according to what it says in I and II Timothy and Titus, holding VPW to the same standard to any other spokesman of God. (Not to mention the part in Deauteronomy that says that if someone says that he is a prophet of God, and prophesies anything that doesn't come to pass, then he's a fake & a fraud, and there have been plenty of places where VPW have Spake as a Man of God, and oopsie, it didn't pan out.)
Nahhh, it just cannot be that way, can it Mike, lest it might have that ugly possibility of undermining this Gospel of VPW and PFAL being THE Word of God, and more being like many other Bible classes everywhere else, except PFAL was taught by some minister who ultimatily allowed the desires of the flesh and pride to overtake his ministry.
And you are obligated to not even begin to consider that now, would you, Mike? Like you'll pi** God off if you did?
"It’ll be interesting when I get back to see how quickly these new points are discarded. At least give them about 10 seconds each. That’ll almost be a full minute. I choose to think these through for another 17 years at least."
A lie, considered for 10 seconds, or for 17 years, ... still remains a lie, Mike. Your attitude of "Look at all-l the years that *I* have spent on all of this about VPW and PFAL, so that proves me right" didn't work for someone else here who was so anal about the Illuminati, and it ain't gonna work for you either.
Face it, Wierwille and TWI had their chance at really making a difference in the world. They screwed up. Looks like back to the drawing board.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Larry P2
Okay, I gave Mike's four "data points" the requisite 40 seconds of consideration - approximately 39 seconds longer than they actually deserve.
Your data points are theologically ignorant and immature, biblically unsound, post hoc cya-type material for a false prophet who died of the self-same cancer he so loudly, heartlessly and pompously jeered in others. Kept his cancer quiet, too, lest it be puff of wind that brought down his entire house-of-cards theological ediface.
Are you actually questioning the Master Grifter's tactic of keeping the cancer completely under wraps rather than opening the issue up for debate and risking the credibility of ALL of his punishingly hairbrained theological sophistries? Why take such a tremendous risk when you can simply lie about your cancer? Lying worked so well for so many situations in the past, didn't it?
Served the self-important, whining, maudlin self-pitying bilge pump hose monster RIGHT to die of cancer!
And some people say there is no God!
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OCD #1
forget the "hack threat", Mike
it was mainly an effort to let you know it's a BIG world out there.....and there is no such thing as absolute "free reign", although you are enjoying something close to that here
you have obviously chosen GS to promote your views
i believe you would've been ridiculed beyond imagination, or completely ignored in just about any other forum on this planet
you are working the emotions of the people here because you are comfortable in the past associations
personally, i feel as if you are going through a "mid-life" crisis, and besides your profession, Way knowledge is maybe the only other thing you're good at....I'm going through similar life changes...it's cool
and may i finally welcome you to your "niche"
hope you feel at home
:)-->
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Oakspear
Luke 13:11 - "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up [herself]."
Frankly, I think there was a lot about devil spirits that was pure speculation on Wierwille's part. So, in answer to your question Mike...maybe!
I don't agree with the statement: 'the uncontrolled growth of a cancer cell equals independent life therefore it's a spirit'. My opinion, based on a layman's knowledege of cancer, is that cancer is just one of the many weaknesses of the corruptible seed that we are born of.
I don't think Wierwille had to have been possessed to get cancer, for it to start, or for it to kill him. But he said it. I'm not the one who thinks his words are God-breathed.
I do not see where the bible goes into any detail on the mechanics of possession or devil spirit attacks in any form. People got possessed δαιμονιζομαι - demonized and did things that they would not ordinarily do, or suffered things they wouldn't otherwise suffer. The spirits got driven out, and they were fine. We aren't given much information on how it happens, or if they are attacking soul life, or individual brain cells, so we don't really know. Wierwille didn't know either. Well, the devil is the author of death. Wierwille taught that death was always of the devil, didn't he?Martindale qualified this in some of his teachings and actually taught that someone could "die in believing", knowing when they would die, or giving up the ghost.
If God did something like this, wouldn't he allow his man, if he was godly, to go peacefully, instead of losing his eye and having his body ravaged by cancer?
I believe possession was control, oppression was an attack from outside without the person being possessed. Why? They have. I wish I could find the references and archived threads.I'm sure what you say could be true, but they seem to be in opposition to what VP taught. It was even brought up because Vic spent time early on saying how evil cancer was, even to where people who had family who were dying of cancer were made to feel badly about it, but his tune changed when he got it.
Gee Mike, just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean someone hasn't discussed it. And maybe you're very wrong and many of us have discussed it on many occassions. Or maybe, like you, we heard all the evidence years ago and made up our minds. It's not thinking evil when you recognize evil in someone and point it out. Was Jesus thinking evil of the Pharisees? Was Nathan thinking evil of David? You assume much. Just because the topics of conversation do not fall in line with what you think they should be, it hasn't occurred to us? Here I is Miguelito! What do you want to talk about?It's interesting taht you a man who proudly asserts that he will not listen to opinions contrary to the ones that he has previously come to; chastises those here who he thinks don't consider his views.
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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shazdancer
Hate to break it to you, but...
Mike,
We've talked about VPW and his views on cancer before. He said people with cancer were possessed. Not oppressed, and not "attacking a skin cell" but not the mind. Those were his views, not mine. He was wrong about so many things.
Many of those wrong things were included in a class called Power for Abundant Living. Much of that has already been covered in this thread. He believed many other wrong things that were manifested in the way he lived his life and interacted with others. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Booze to excess, adultery, rages, chauvinism. Did you ever stop to think that, while he was bragging that he did nothing but study the Word nonstop for so many years, he was neglecting his wife and children? Apparently, he didn't much believe in the Book he was teaching. I never saw an example in the Bible of God showering an abundance of revelation on the ungodly.
Then I look at how you have conducted yourself. Whining one minute, attacking posters the next. If you insult us, that's okay; but if someone else calls you WRONG, you are getting picked on, according to you. You are also disrespectful of the boundaries of one or two of the women posters here. Yup, sounds a lot like the guy you admire.
Please don't bother to e-mail me. I will not respond. I have no interest in the gospel you preach. It does not result in a life that I would want to live.
shaz
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Zixar
Possibilities? No sir. The Word is not subject to your private interpretation. This was the Advanced Class on PFAL, the vital revelation of the operations of two-thirds of the manifestations of the spirit. Dr. Wierwille would not have lied to us on such a vital issue.
Neither was he mistaken. This was the man who healed the paralyzed arm of a man in Jubbulpore, and cast all number of spirits out of a possessed woman there as well. You can't do those sort of things and not know what you're talking about.
Doctor said cancer is always a devil spirit. He was unequivocal on the matter. Trying to discern spiritual matters via five-senses knowledge "possibilities" is a tool of the Adversary.
Where is your believing that you could be so deceived in this matter?
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OCD #1
uh oh, Mike
ya know it's bad when they can use your own creed against you
Zix, that was incredible
damn, i think i'm smart until i read some others' posts
Mike, you are obviously growing on some people here OR they see it as THEIR mission to enlighten YOU!
tables turned!
:D-->
as heartbreaking as it is to many of us, The Way was a utopian boat that didn't float ....we outlived it
I'm currently trying to figure out why God wrote the screenplay in the first place!!??
after all "HE" created the whole damn thing and "has foreknowledge" ....it's starting to look like a drawn out soap opera, too much glamour and drama for me
Yo GOD! cut to the chase ....
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning....."
Genesis 1:2 should read " and they were gathered together, forever to be with the Lord"
END OF STORY
"God wanted a family"
--> ....sounds like "his" problem
Don't you feel like a freakin pawn/puppet in some imaginary spiritual warfare?
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sirguessalot
OCD,
Shhhh. I'm trying to get into character.
I think my scene is coming up.
What's my line?
What's my motivation?
Where's my (bleep)ing agent?
I can't work under these (bleep)damn conditions!
snarf!
(end of derail)
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OCD #1
Holy ....! lmao
YOU are one of the reasons I love this joint!
what a mind!
"rolling in 5-4-3-2-1 ..ACTION!"
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