No question this will be not be easy. Because of the likes of Martha Stewert and Enron, courts are taking breach of fiduciary responsibilities more seriously. Board of Directors are being scrutinized to a much greater degree regarding actions which enrich them or their corporate CEOs. The "Corporate Veil" is being broken and exposing these individuals to be more accountable for thier actions that personally enrich them individually. Throw in the angle of a not for profit organization that is receiving an exemption to federal income tax, this could be real interesting if it gets in the right court with the right judge.
The Consumer Protection Act is interesting in the fact that it is set up to give triple damages as a punishment for violations. It will be a tough argument to win, but certainly an interesting new angle to go after them with.
Someone asked about tapes being used in court, and the answer I got was they are.
If you have any TWI tapes, documents, Way puiblications etc that contradict what you have read in the evidentiary court hearing testimony, the Peelers could probably use it.
The rumor I have heard is that the Peeler's attorneys are going after the trustees personally and attempting to pierce the corporate veil.
TWI's attorneys are frantically trying to block this with court motions, in addition to the many they have filed to delay the case coming to trial.
The Judge is rumored to be tired of TWI's delays, and has set a trial date of July 12 at 9:00am.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on January 19, 2004 at 17:12.]
I hate to admit it, but alot of way functions happened at Mom and Dad's place and I don't remember all of them. Cept maybe my wedding reception, but I seem to recall John Stinson being one of the many weddings Mom and Dad hosted. Anybody know? Mom doesn't remember, she just cleaned the house, and let whoever take over.....
What I got out of Colombo asking about Peeler's background is that they are going to try to say that Dr Peeler is a very intellegent individual (which no doubt he is). But how could such a smart guy give money & do things that he really didn't want to do? I have even heard poeple here at GS make this statement to others about "you were a big girl/boy...you knew what you were doing".
It's all a song & dance for the judge & jury.
I'm sure that Dr Peeler's lawyers wil be prepared for that.
If, by some miracle, the Peelers prevail in this case, the ramifications for TWI and indeed, ANY religious organization, would be incredibly far-reaching. You can bet that TWI (possibly with the help of some rather strange bedfellows, if necessary) would fight the decision as far up the judicial ladder as possible.
The reason why this particular case of Consumer Fraud is less cut and dried, is because it involves a religious organization and its doctrinal tenants. I doubt that any court of law is eager to prescribe the legalities of a religion's beliefs and practices, except in cases where they are deemed to be an actual threat to life and limb, or abusive to children. No matter how distasteful, manipulative, or illogical a group's doctrines and practices, they are usually deemed to be entitled to them under the constitution, and it will commonly be assumed that persons who follow such tenants, do so voluntarily. The oneous will be on the plaintiffs to prove otherwise. A TALL order, to be sure.
At best, I believe that this case is just one more opportunity to expose the slimey underbelly of this organization, showcasing their cruelty and lies. Win or lose, court transcripts proving TWI's duplicity, slashed over the internet, will have a chilling effect on current followers (can you say, "Exodus III?), as well as TWI's prospects for those in the future. The only way this group will effectively become a non-entity, will be when there are virtually no followers left, save the smug and self-righteous defendants themselves. That prospect, in and of itself, may make the struggle worth it to the Peelers. However, I wouldn't be surprised, nor could I really blame them, if they were to settle the case instead.
From reading the Peeler's complaint, most of their grievences are not doctrinal at all, but allegations of deceptive practices that are not religious beliefs.
Reading Attorney Lawrence Levy's 2 interviews on Ex-Cultworld, his approach was never to get into the religious beliefs, but to emphasize the groups actions in regard to the laws of the land, like deceptive trade practices, cooercion etc.
Bob Snow's new book on cults defines a cult as "employing unethicaal manipulative techniques of persuasion and control designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community".
.... "must be involved in some type of criminal action, be it murder, sexual abuse, assault, kidnapping, arson, financial fraud, or some other offense." Page 6
(Bob Snow talks about a cult called The Way International Page163 and following)
The best news is that the judge is becoming inpatient with delaying tactics and evasiveness from the defendents. In the courtroom judges are God, so it is not a good idea to pi$$ them off. Sounds like the lawyers for TWI might be on a slippery slope there. However, judges are careful not to allow some of these tactics for fear that they might be overruled by an appeals court. The wheels of justice turn very slow, so batten down the hatches for a long rough ride.
Keep an eye on Martha Stewert's case. From all indications she will be employing many legal tactics to discredit her accusers. She has even hired an "ink expert" to discredit documents that are very damaging to her case. We have entered a new era in American Justice with prosecuters entering arenas (inside corporate board rooms) to uncover abuses that were formerly hidden. White collar criminals are losing there waiver of justice.
If you look at a non-profit with no investors or shareholders, who are directors accountable to. In for profit corporations, officers are accountable to directors and directors are accountable to shareholders. In TWI's case, who are directors accountable to. I would say the people they are there to serve, which would be the followers. If this is not the case, then Who's ministry is it? If I were still involved, this is question I would ask. I know the board will say we are accountable to God. Ultimately God will be the judge, but didn't they teach in TWI that this "Man's day to judge?" Man is judging cover up, deceit and conspiracy very harshly these days in America.
"The General Standards of Conduct for Officers state that an officer is entitled to rely on information and advice received from employees and outside professionals. Reliance on nonprofit authorities by officers of nonprofit organizations is expressly included. Thus, an officer is excused from liability to the organization and to any person when relying on their information or advice. A manager does not have to be perfect to act with integrity. He or she only needs to be prudent in management."
Gee, all they need now is a fall guy. ;-)
More legal information on non-profits can be found at:
I only hope that we can be given enough notice of when the actual trial happens. I would love to see the courtroom filled to overflowing daily with ex-members who would all be able to tell exactly the same stories over and over with no coaching on the part of any attornies. We all lived it, we all experienced it, we all know it is true. We were all threaten with losing our lives to the devil if we didn't come clean about every detail of our finances and give give give.
We all remember what we were taugh about Annias and Sapphira.
We all had someone tell us where to live and with whom, who to marry and what jobs not to take because they would interfere with fellowship.
There have been at least two other TWI law suits. Members of the Waydale and Greasespot communities have gotten very excited at the prospect of attending the trials each time (or at least, by the prospect of reading court transcripts). Hasn't happened yet. Hate to say it, but we might want to temper the enthusiam for this one too.
It is my understanding that John and Caryn Stinson were placed on spiritual probation around the same time as the Binkleys were told to report to HQ, in 2001. Information was also given to me that they were attending a church and were very happy with their new beginning.
Can anyone else confirm this? As I read his testimony, I noticed that he was not asked the question concerning his present affiliation.
with TWI. Also, his answers were, "I don't remember" or "I do not have the authority" or "The Peelers met with the Branch co-ordinator" etc. I don't think he did TWI any real justice in his testimony...
I can confirm that there is no fellowship held in the Chatt. area and has not been one since the Stinson's stopped them in their home.
I can't see any of the former "members" standing up for TWI in that area cause they were dumped and no contact was made to them except that if they wanted to attend fellowship they would thave to drive to Knoxville. That was a real bummer to those that had been in TWI for over 20 years but, the best damn thing that could happen to them...
I would like for them to pursue the "not required to take our classes" portion of rosa-lie's depo.
They should ask her to provide how many people are coming to fellowships who have not had a wap class? How many have been coming for over 1, 2, 5, 10 years without having had a class? How many attend on a regular basis who do not tithe? How long have they been attending? Provide names and witnesses.
I just read all of the documents from the hearing. From what I see, the attorney for the plaintiff (and even the defense attorney) are setting up the BOT as liable, legally for edicts passed down from TWI.
From where I sit...it's pretty much open and shut as long as Peeler and his attorney stay as sharp and intuitive as they have so far.
quote:"The General Standards of Conduct for Officers state that an officer is entitled to rely on information and advice received from employees and outside professionals. Reliance on nonprofit authorities by officers of nonprofit organizations is expressly included. Thus, an officer is excused from liability to the organization and to any person when relying on their information or advice. A manager does not have to be perfect to act with integrity. He or she only needs to be prudent in management."
However this does not apply to fraud, or racketeering, where he corporate officers are personaly indeed liable, both civily and criminally.
There is lots of stuff that corporated officers can get nailed on ....
The fear which was was taught to the followers of TWI, should they leave the protection of the household, makes me sick to the bone. To reinforce their fear by telling them James' death was a result of being in debt, tithing, and not being truthful about his income shows a definate pattern throughout TWI.
Instead of showing love and compassion for another believer who is mourning the death of a loved one, Stephen Roberts is more interested in belittling and trashing the memory of him in the dirt.
I believe that he and other leadership gloat over seeing the fear in people's faces.
Stephen Roberts lied about James and lied about the situation under oath. I don't know why Stephen did't want to tell the truth, but I do believe it will come back to him.
Have you ever met a person who lied so much that he/she actually believed what they were saying?
The reason for death to those who left TWI is simple...DEVIL Spirits...BUT what is the reason Stephen Roberts when death comes to those young men and ladies who have been very active within the so called walls of household protection? You and those of your like need to stop and think before you degrade one of us.
I do hope that you apologize to the families for saying and doing the ungodly acts in which you have supported and continue to support.
Be the man you claim to be...Stand up to the devilish ways of TWI and get your wife and family out...Go to the fellowships and release the prisoners...set them free for they truly want to go...They are just afraid to enter the world and face the real truth...
Oh, by the way Stephen, You do know what "open mind" means because that is what you told us not to have because we would open ourselves to devil spirits...or can't you remember that either.
I'm sure there will be many in the courtroom to refresh your memory should you forget Stephen and Rosie....
The Roberts get paid $45K/year to be full time? Do they have to pay for rent out of that, or are some of the expenses paid for by TWI? Do they still provide cars for full time employees?
TWI has over $40M in the bank and they only allow $100 for meetings? No wonder we have to meet in such run down dumps. We've had meetings outside in such uncomfortable conditions that many people don't show up.
I don't know how it is done nowadays but when I left hq in 1994 the limb coordinators were responsible to pay for their housing, food, car lease (thru a lease car program) out of their salaries themselves.
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Doze
No question this will be not be easy. Because of the likes of Martha Stewert and Enron, courts are taking breach of fiduciary responsibilities more seriously. Board of Directors are being scrutinized to a much greater degree regarding actions which enrich them or their corporate CEOs. The "Corporate Veil" is being broken and exposing these individuals to be more accountable for thier actions that personally enrich them individually. Throw in the angle of a not for profit organization that is receiving an exemption to federal income tax, this could be real interesting if it gets in the right court with the right judge.
The Consumer Protection Act is interesting in the fact that it is set up to give triple damages as a punishment for violations. It will be a tough argument to win, but certainly an interesting new angle to go after them with.
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IMF777
Someone asked about tapes being used in court, and the answer I got was they are.
If you have any TWI tapes, documents, Way puiblications etc that contradict what you have read in the evidentiary court hearing testimony, the Peelers could probably use it.
The rumor I have heard is that the Peeler's attorneys are going after the trustees personally and attempting to pierce the corporate veil.
TWI's attorneys are frantically trying to block this with court motions, in addition to the many they have filed to delay the case coming to trial.
The Judge is rumored to be tired of TWI's delays, and has set a trial date of July 12 at 9:00am.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on January 19, 2004 at 17:12.]
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Seth
I kept some tapes... Mwwwah haahahahahahah!
They are toast!
Seth
"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
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ex10
Ok, what I'm wondering is, is this the same John Stinson that got married at my parents' house in Memphis?
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ex10
I hate to admit it, but alot of way functions happened at Mom and Dad's place and I don't remember all of them. Cept maybe my wedding reception, but I seem to recall John Stinson being one of the many weddings Mom and Dad hosted. Anybody know? Mom doesn't remember, she just cleaned the house, and let whoever take over.....
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LuckyGirl
What I got out of Colombo asking about Peeler's background is that they are going to try to say that Dr Peeler is a very intellegent individual (which no doubt he is). But how could such a smart guy give money & do things that he really didn't want to do? I have even heard poeple here at GS make this statement to others about "you were a big girl/boy...you knew what you were doing".
It's all a song & dance for the judge & jury.
I'm sure that Dr Peeler's lawyers wil be prepared for that.
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Cherished Child
If, by some miracle, the Peelers prevail in this case, the ramifications for TWI and indeed, ANY religious organization, would be incredibly far-reaching. You can bet that TWI (possibly with the help of some rather strange bedfellows, if necessary) would fight the decision as far up the judicial ladder as possible.
The reason why this particular case of Consumer Fraud is less cut and dried, is because it involves a religious organization and its doctrinal tenants. I doubt that any court of law is eager to prescribe the legalities of a religion's beliefs and practices, except in cases where they are deemed to be an actual threat to life and limb, or abusive to children. No matter how distasteful, manipulative, or illogical a group's doctrines and practices, they are usually deemed to be entitled to them under the constitution, and it will commonly be assumed that persons who follow such tenants, do so voluntarily. The oneous will be on the plaintiffs to prove otherwise. A TALL order, to be sure.
At best, I believe that this case is just one more opportunity to expose the slimey underbelly of this organization, showcasing their cruelty and lies. Win or lose, court transcripts proving TWI's duplicity, slashed over the internet, will have a chilling effect on current followers (can you say, "Exodus III?), as well as TWI's prospects for those in the future. The only way this group will effectively become a non-entity, will be when there are virtually no followers left, save the smug and self-righteous defendants themselves. That prospect, in and of itself, may make the struggle worth it to the Peelers. However, I wouldn't be surprised, nor could I really blame them, if they were to settle the case instead.
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IMF777
From reading the Peeler's complaint, most of their grievences are not doctrinal at all, but allegations of deceptive practices that are not religious beliefs.
Reading Attorney Lawrence Levy's 2 interviews on Ex-Cultworld, his approach was never to get into the religious beliefs, but to emphasize the groups actions in regard to the laws of the land, like deceptive trade practices, cooercion etc.
Bob Snow's new book on cults defines a cult as "employing unethicaal manipulative techniques of persuasion and control designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community".
.... "must be involved in some type of criminal action, be it murder, sexual abuse, assault, kidnapping, arson, financial fraud, or some other offense." Page 6
(Bob Snow talks about a cult called The Way International Page163 and following)
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Doze
The best news is that the judge is becoming inpatient with delaying tactics and evasiveness from the defendents. In the courtroom judges are God, so it is not a good idea to pi$$ them off. Sounds like the lawyers for TWI might be on a slippery slope there. However, judges are careful not to allow some of these tactics for fear that they might be overruled by an appeals court. The wheels of justice turn very slow, so batten down the hatches for a long rough ride.
Keep an eye on Martha Stewert's case. From all indications she will be employing many legal tactics to discredit her accusers. She has even hired an "ink expert" to discredit documents that are very damaging to her case. We have entered a new era in American Justice with prosecuters entering arenas (inside corporate board rooms) to uncover abuses that were formerly hidden. White collar criminals are losing there waiver of justice.
If you look at a non-profit with no investors or shareholders, who are directors accountable to. In for profit corporations, officers are accountable to directors and directors are accountable to shareholders. In TWI's case, who are directors accountable to. I would say the people they are there to serve, which would be the followers. If this is not the case, then Who's ministry is it? If I were still involved, this is question I would ask. I know the board will say we are accountable to God. Ultimately God will be the judge, but didn't they teach in TWI that this "Man's day to judge?" Man is judging cover up, deceit and conspiracy very harshly these days in America.
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tony
who are the board of trustees accouantable to ?
Long Live Israel !
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Radar OReilly
Apparently, not even GOD.
Radar
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JustThinking
Who do they answer to? Hmm...good question.
From:
http://www.t-tlaw.com/np-06.htm
"The General Standards of Conduct for Officers state that an officer is entitled to rely on information and advice received from employees and outside professionals. Reliance on nonprofit authorities by officers of nonprofit organizations is expressly included. Thus, an officer is excused from liability to the organization and to any person when relying on their information or advice. A manager does not have to be perfect to act with integrity. He or she only needs to be prudent in management."
Gee, all they need now is a fall guy. ;-)
More legal information on non-profits can be found at:
http://www.t-tlaw.com/nonprofit.htm
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napkinlady
I only hope that we can be given enough notice of when the actual trial happens. I would love to see the courtroom filled to overflowing daily with ex-members who would all be able to tell exactly the same stories over and over with no coaching on the part of any attornies. We all lived it, we all experienced it, we all know it is true. We were all threaten with losing our lives to the devil if we didn't come clean about every detail of our finances and give give give.
We all remember what we were taugh about Annias and Sapphira.
We all had someone tell us where to live and with whom, who to marry and what jobs not to take because they would interfere with fellowship.
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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IMF777
Napkin Lady,
The Judge has set a trial date of July 12 at 9:00am.
Torches,staves, and hanging rope are optional.....Just kidding....
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napkinlady
I'll wait until we see if it gets postponed before I make my plane reservations, but July sounds like a lovely time to be in Tennessee!
thanks
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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Cherished Child
There have been at least two other TWI law suits. Members of the Waydale and Greasespot communities have gotten very excited at the prospect of attending the trials each time (or at least, by the prospect of reading court transcripts). Hasn't happened yet. Hate to say it, but we might want to temper the enthusiam for this one too.
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sadie
It is my understanding that John and Caryn Stinson were placed on spiritual probation around the same time as the Binkleys were told to report to HQ, in 2001. Information was also given to me that they were attending a church and were very happy with their new beginning.
Can anyone else confirm this? As I read his testimony, I noticed that he was not asked the question concerning his present affiliation.
with TWI. Also, his answers were, "I don't remember" or "I do not have the authority" or "The Peelers met with the Branch co-ordinator" etc. I don't think he did TWI any real justice in his testimony...
I can confirm that there is no fellowship held in the Chatt. area and has not been one since the Stinson's stopped them in their home.
I can't see any of the former "members" standing up for TWI in that area cause they were dumped and no contact was made to them except that if they wanted to attend fellowship they would thave to drive to Knoxville. That was a real bummer to those that had been in TWI for over 20 years but, the best damn thing that could happen to them...
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rags leroux
rooooooocy
you gotta lotta 'splainin to do
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insurgent
I would like for them to pursue the "not required to take our classes" portion of rosa-lie's depo.
They should ask her to provide how many people are coming to fellowships who have not had a wap class? How many have been coming for over 1, 2, 5, 10 years without having had a class? How many attend on a regular basis who do not tithe? How long have they been attending? Provide names and witnesses.
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Cindy!
I just read all of the documents from the hearing. From what I see, the attorney for the plaintiff (and even the defense attorney) are setting up the BOT as liable, legally for edicts passed down from TWI.
From where I sit...it's pretty much open and shut as long as Peeler and his attorney stay as sharp and intuitive as they have so far.
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Goey
Posted by JustThinking:
However this does not apply to fraud, or racketeering, where he corporate officers are personaly indeed liable, both civily and criminally.
There is lots of stuff that corporated officers can get nailed on ....
Read the Actual Statutes here ....
http://www.michie.com/
Select Tennessee and then go to title 48 ...
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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sadie
The fear which was was taught to the followers of TWI, should they leave the protection of the household, makes me sick to the bone. To reinforce their fear by telling them James' death was a result of being in debt, tithing, and not being truthful about his income shows a definate pattern throughout TWI.
Instead of showing love and compassion for another believer who is mourning the death of a loved one, Stephen Roberts is more interested in belittling and trashing the memory of him in the dirt.
I believe that he and other leadership gloat over seeing the fear in people's faces.
Stephen Roberts lied about James and lied about the situation under oath. I don't know why Stephen did't want to tell the truth, but I do believe it will come back to him.
Have you ever met a person who lied so much that he/she actually believed what they were saying?
The reason for death to those who left TWI is simple...DEVIL Spirits...BUT what is the reason Stephen Roberts when death comes to those young men and ladies who have been very active within the so called walls of household protection? You and those of your like need to stop and think before you degrade one of us.
I do hope that you apologize to the families for saying and doing the ungodly acts in which you have supported and continue to support.
Be the man you claim to be...Stand up to the devilish ways of TWI and get your wife and family out...Go to the fellowships and release the prisoners...set them free for they truly want to go...They are just afraid to enter the world and face the real truth...
Oh, by the way Stephen, You do know what "open mind" means because that is what you told us not to have because we would open ourselves to devil spirits...or can't you remember that either.
I'm sure there will be many in the courtroom to refresh your memory should you forget Stephen and Rosie....
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WaywardWayfer
The Roberts get paid $45K/year to be full time? Do they have to pay for rent out of that, or are some of the expenses paid for by TWI? Do they still provide cars for full time employees?
TWI has over $40M in the bank and they only allow $100 for meetings? No wonder we have to meet in such run down dumps. We've had meetings outside in such uncomfortable conditions that many people don't show up.
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Radar OReilly
WWW,
I don't know how it is done nowadays but when I left hq in 1994 the limb coordinators were responsible to pay for their housing, food, car lease (thru a lease car program) out of their salaries themselves.
ROR
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