quote:twi never taught abuse was ok or molestation was ok.
True I never heard 'molestaion taught' although I'm sure if we took apart the Christian Sex (oops..Family) and Sex class we could find some...lol...BUT they did teach abuse. I had never even heard of the old 'wooden spoon' usage until I was in TWI. They did teach to hit your child with it. Absolutely.
I have spoken one-on-one with JAL. He acknowledged that what twi "taught" was far different that twi practiced.
I have spoken one-on-one with 3 other folks who were limb leaders I had to deal with while in twi. Each of them acknowledged that there was a "public" face of twi...and a "private" face of twi...and that private face was all too often scandalous to say the least.
I have spoken one-on-one with our dear Mike. Even he acknowledges that there was a huge difference between "official" twi positions and "behind-the-scenes" twi positions.
The majority of extwi people I have come in contact with on the 'net agree that what twi put out in public was often far different from what twi practiced with the "initiated".
Anybody can go to twi's current website and see what would appear to be a stereotypical aging church group.
Hell, even MSNBC was taken in by twi's schtick...and would have never known they had been hoodwinked unless folks from GSC had given them the 411.
Those people who refuse to acknowledge that twi as an organization knew about and winked at "behind-the-scenes" activities that either bordered on the criminal or were actually criminal, these people who refuse to hear the truth...
They are either current twi participants in deep denial or...
the thing with the spoon , well I consider the times about that as well. Suffice to say times have changed. The day he was brought up as a child it was much more accepted to discipline a child in ways that today would seem illegal. agencys were not in force and the laws have changed alot.
I was slapped by my fourth grade teacher for dropping my pencil during a test and she used to pull the boys by their ears to the floor till they listened.
she was a teacher in the public school system. well respected by many.
it all depends also how and when you used this spoon thing in a sense you can look at it like they tried to instruct parents on how to teach their children without being brutal... like the earlier thread said to get their attention etc.
the bible does ok discipline and chstisment.. not that beating a child was ok and I honestly never somone beat a child with a spoon not to say they didnt people are jerks and most go with what they learned as a child when they become parents. spanking is not abuse even today nor is disciplining your child . beating a child is different. if a person felt strongly that they could not use a spoon and could manage other ways to help a child grow up Im sure it was not like now you slap your kid with the spoon because God said to!!! or eles. maybe get your children under control that I understand and if you just can not then they should not be in that environment at that point.. again a parents choice.
Ex yes it is true of most who use others can be pillars of the community and it often disgused a great many of those who want to hurt another. we have had three childrens doctors arrested in my city convicted in the past two years!! now that is terrible a person who a parent takes their baby to get well from ends up being molested! it is a nasty world!
the bible does ok discipline and chstisment...not that beating a child was ok
The bible says to beat a child. You use the bible as a baseball bat against people...but then turn around and make exceptions.
quote:we have had three childrens doctors arrested in my city convicted in the past two years!! now that is terrible a person who a parent takes their baby to get well from ends up being molested! it is a nasty world!
Do the parents of your community know that you think they are stupid and have lazy parenting techniques?
If they don't, someone oughta let them in on the secret.
I think twi heard the stories and problems from people constantly and without end . What was done about it?
Well that is what the forum greasespot is about.
The fact that individuals would look to twi leaders for their guidance and life style and direction and then be shocked at what they got for answers is of no surprise to me. haha
The fact that individuals would look to twi leaders for their guidance and life style and direction and then be shocked at what they got for answers is of no surprise to me. haha
blind leading the blind for the most part.
How does what you say here fit with what you say in your paragraph I quoted above...about the pediatricians in your community?
it does say beat a child doesnt it ?I forgot. it also says a great deal about not discouraging your child and to love them and to put off anger... again anyone can take any bible verses and use them anyway they like .
do not accuse me of your problems ms. cool waters , the fact is I did witness an extraordinary amount of parents compromise their children in the way because twi came first in their life before anything including the safety and protection of their families..
at their own hands not another and we are talking about people trusting people in twi and impressing others with who ya know big deal in the way and you still do it lol haha who cares who you talked to? I sure do not doesnt impress me a bit!
exactly what Im saying what twi taught and what people DID in real life was a far expanse of difference to be sure. I agree completely! Your looking to blame again I say it was those directly compromising to blame not neccesarily what TWI taught as truth!
it does say beat a child doesnt it ?I forgot. it also says a great deal about not discouraging your child and to love them and to put off anger... again anyone can take any bible verses and use them anyway they like .
Which is why the way you beat people over the head with bible verses is very telling.
quote:do not accuse me of your problems ms. cool waters,
One at me...four back at yourself.
quote: the fact is I did witness an extraordinary amount of parents compromise their children in the way because twi came first in their life before anything including the safety and protection of their families...at their own hands not another
What did you do about it? Did you contact the authorities? Did you try to stop it? Did you do anything, lift one single sanctimonious finger to protect the children?
quote:and we are talking about people trusting people in twi
Yep.
quote:and impressing others with who ya know big deal in the way and you still do it
No, mj, we are not talking about that. You are talking about that...you brought that thought pattern into the conversation as a way to browbeat parents.
quote:exactly what Im saying what twi taught and what people DID in real life was a far expanse of difference to be sure. I agree completely! Your looking to blame again I say it was those directly compromising to blame not neccesarily what TWI taught as truth!
i believe all our experiences were very very different
i "sort of" see myself as a child (back then) because i was emotionally and mentally screwed up at 18-19 and even after that. having been "taught" (but not really) you know incest and all.... played a part in my screwy mind.... long story
i did not have my own children in the way ministry
as i grew older and finally (thank you god) had a child, i teach him about EVERYTHING
--
let's give each other some slack. or at least realize we were all different people in the cult
I think that many of us were vulnerable and naieve ex, ....many of us had horrible childhoods, many with no one to educate or guide us....thus providing easy pickings for the predators.
What really sucks is that they took folks that had been already been kicked in the teeth by life....gave us hope built that trust and then betrayed and violated us yet again....
that is right Ex many sick where drawn into twi, they gave people hope and for some the family they never had in childhood.
Jesus never turned the ill away He healed them.. wise as serpents gentle as doves we are still talking humans I truly think some put others on pedestals so high they forgot that fact hence the absent Christ ideal .
One of the biggest errors was it got too large to manage personal issues more common and serious while people began to compete for positions just as the disciples did when Jesus walked the earth.
example the above posts from your dear friend.
Im not in a war cool waters you reveal yourself plainly and clearly. lol
god didnt allow anything bad to happen people sinned and consequences are a part of sin. I thank God for the Bible I do know it helps stop sin a great deal in ones life hence less truama and pain... and it only gets better in the kingdom.
"in a sense you can look at it like they tried to instruct parents on how to teach their children without being brutal... like the earlier thread said to get their attention etc. "
Telling parents its ok to leave bruises on a 2 year old child isn't brutal? This is teaching parents how to use the spoon correctly?
You are one very twisted individual, MJ.
"The fact that individuals would look to twi leaders for their guidance and life style and direction and then be shocked at what they got for answers is of no surprise to me. haha "
I'll bet it isn't. You're like a broken record on this one MJ. Projecting your own garbage all over everyone else in an attempt to make yourself feel better, regardless of who you trash and hurt in the process. CW was correct, you protest too much and in the process reveal your own weaknesses. You think you are teaching anyone here something? You think you are helping them? guiding them? counseling them? HA!
Look inside your own self and fix what is broken, then you will be truly able to help those around you. Until then, what spews forth out of your keyboard is nothing more than a reflection of your own self loathing. I could feel very sorry for you under different circumstances, but I have little pity for those who are so dishonest with their own self.
Why did anyone need anyone eles approval for leaving bruises etc? hmm? it sounds like they said what you wanted to hear to me . If you wanted to leave your husband why didnt you? you needed their approval? come on plenty got divorced in twi for much less .
it was your problem abby and you sought answers you wanted to hear and got them that was also common in the way to many problems with to many intense deep mental and family problems knocking on the door of the leaders!!!
the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road you cant do much to help people when they want you to fix their life in gerneral . God is the solution in life. prayer would have been nice tho.
What I am curious about is not so much of people in TWI abusing their own children, but whether or not TWI leadership would have been aware of it going on and never addressed it.
Alternatively, there could be cases of TWI leadership abusing children but I never heard about it.
I have seen parents get too crazy with "the rod of correction" (aka the wooden spoon) but not doing things that put their kids in the hospital or raping them. Are there any situations where this definitely happened?
These questions have been answered repeatedly.
Even some of those who would prefer to point fingers and do the "nanny nanny boo boo, I'm better than you who" dance have admitted that child abuse not only happened in twi, but leadership ignored it.
Why did anyone need anyone eles approval for leaving bruises etc? hmm? it sounds like they said what you wanted to hear to me . If you wanted to leave your husband why didnt you? you needed their approval? come on plenty got divorced in twi for much less .
it was your problem abby and you sought answers you wanted to hear and got them that was also common in the way to many problems with to many intense deep mental and family problems knocking on the door of the leaders!!!
the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road you cant do much to help people when they want you to fix their life in gerneral . God is the solution in life. prayer would have been nice tho.
mj, since this is just one example of many of the way you treat people now that you're out of twi, there's no doubt in my mind that you were one of the biggest culprits of perpetrating an atmosphere that harbored and protected abusers while you were in twi.
And although I rarerly, if ever, bring this up...
Since you're so much smarter and grown up and responsible than me or Abi or rascal...
Would you please spell correctly, use correct grammar and punctuation, and make full sentences? It would show me that your smarts are genuine. (Yes, I am that shallow...with folks like you...'cause being deep in a wading pool is useless.)
and yes we all know your bold face accusations of great abuse with no proof other than what you think . lol no surprise there haha should I join the club of those who do not make you happy and you can now tell tall tales about? ok. no skin off my teeth .
"it was your problem abby and you sought answers you wanted to hear "
your ignorance is showing again, MJ. That doesn't even make sense. If I had received the answers I wanted to hear I would probably still be with TWI.
"the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road"
No, their focus was on making money, they are a corporation and that is what corporations do. They actually prefer the almost dead cats though, the ones who still have money to give.
They aren't much interested in those people whose lives don't need fixing - big witness key, taught over and over by TWI, find the victim's area of need and help them get their need met. Suck em in, bleed em dry, toss them out.
Cept they didn't bleed me dry or toss me out, I left on my own. If my memory serves me correctly, you can't say that can you? You were kicked out, right? Or was that the offshoot that kicked you out? Who was the dead cat, MJ? Who did they bleed dry? They actually fought to keep me in. I took out a restraining order to insure they and my ex left me alone.
I'm sorry to be so cruel to you MJ. I generally try to be much kinder to people, but sometimes what goes around comes around.
Denial can be an a life saver when people are in a bad way. But denial taken too far or held on to for too long is very very unhealthy not only for the individual in denial but for those around the individual as well.
and yes we all know your bold face accusations of great abuse with no proof other than what you think . lol no surprise there haha should I join the club of those who do not make you happy and you can now tell tall tales about? ok. no skin off my teeth .
mj...duh..you admitted it...I didn't hold a gun to your head and make you type the admission...I just quoted you.
please forgive me, i haven't read the past maybe one-and-a-half pages or whatever
i'm suffering some sort of burnout
maybe tomorrow
love,
ex
i wanted to tell you a story about my brothers and a priest and my little brothers' different perspectives / reactions but i realize it's too much for me
And here is perhaps the most important part. You cannot condemn others nearly as much as you condemn yourself. Forgiveness is key. God looks on the heart and forgives. When you don't forgive yourself you are rejecting what God has given you.
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Catcup
I, too am new to this particular thread. I spent several hours this morning looking through it. While I was never a part of any "initiation" ceremony (tongue in cheek or otherwise) that Evan describ
waywayout(of The Way)
True I never heard 'molestaion taught' although I'm sure if we took apart the Christian Sex (oops..Family) and Sex class we could find some...lol...BUT they did teach abuse. I had never even heard of the old 'wooden spoon' usage until I was in TWI. They did teach to hit your child with it. Absolutely.
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CoolWaters
I have spoken one-on-one with JAL. He acknowledged that what twi "taught" was far different that twi practiced.
I have spoken one-on-one with 3 other folks who were limb leaders I had to deal with while in twi. Each of them acknowledged that there was a "public" face of twi...and a "private" face of twi...and that private face was all too often scandalous to say the least.
I have spoken one-on-one with our dear Mike. Even he acknowledges that there was a huge difference between "official" twi positions and "behind-the-scenes" twi positions.
The majority of extwi people I have come in contact with on the 'net agree that what twi put out in public was often far different from what twi practiced with the "initiated".
Anybody can go to twi's current website and see what would appear to be a stereotypical aging church group.
Hell, even MSNBC was taken in by twi's schtick...and would have never known they had been hoodwinked unless folks from GSC had given them the 411.
Those people who refuse to acknowledge that twi as an organization knew about and winked at "behind-the-scenes" activities that either bordered on the criminal or were actually criminal, these people who refuse to hear the truth...
They are either current twi participants in deep denial or...
They refuse to admit to their own dirty hands...
Or both.
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mj412
the thing with the spoon , well I consider the times about that as well. Suffice to say times have changed. The day he was brought up as a child it was much more accepted to discipline a child in ways that today would seem illegal. agencys were not in force and the laws have changed alot.
I was slapped by my fourth grade teacher for dropping my pencil during a test and she used to pull the boys by their ears to the floor till they listened.
she was a teacher in the public school system. well respected by many.
it all depends also how and when you used this spoon thing in a sense you can look at it like they tried to instruct parents on how to teach their children without being brutal... like the earlier thread said to get their attention etc.
the bible does ok discipline and chstisment.. not that beating a child was ok and I honestly never somone beat a child with a spoon not to say they didnt people are jerks and most go with what they learned as a child when they become parents. spanking is not abuse even today nor is disciplining your child . beating a child is different. if a person felt strongly that they could not use a spoon and could manage other ways to help a child grow up Im sure it was not like now you slap your kid with the spoon because God said to!!! or eles. maybe get your children under control that I understand and if you just can not then they should not be in that environment at that point.. again a parents choice.
Ex yes it is true of most who use others can be pillars of the community and it often disgused a great many of those who want to hurt another. we have had three childrens doctors arrested in my city convicted in the past two years!! now that is terrible a person who a parent takes their baby to get well from ends up being molested! it is a nasty world!
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CoolWaters
The bible says to beat a child. You use the bible as a baseball bat against people...but then turn around and make exceptions.
Do the parents of your community know that you think they are stupid and have lazy parenting techniques?
If they don't, someone oughta let them in on the secret.
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mj412
I think twi heard the stories and problems from people constantly and without end . What was done about it?
Well that is what the forum greasespot is about.
The fact that individuals would look to twi leaders for their guidance and life style and direction and then be shocked at what they got for answers is of no surprise to me. haha
blind leading the blind for the most part.
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CoolWaters
How does what you say here fit with what you say in your paragraph I quoted above...about the pediatricians in your community?
It doesn't.
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mj412
it does say beat a child doesnt it ?I forgot. it also says a great deal about not discouraging your child and to love them and to put off anger... again anyone can take any bible verses and use them anyway they like .
do not accuse me of your problems ms. cool waters , the fact is I did witness an extraordinary amount of parents compromise their children in the way because twi came first in their life before anything including the safety and protection of their families..
at their own hands not another and we are talking about people trusting people in twi and impressing others with who ya know big deal in the way and you still do it lol haha who cares who you talked to? I sure do not doesnt impress me a bit!
exactly what Im saying what twi taught and what people DID in real life was a far expanse of difference to be sure. I agree completely! Your looking to blame again I say it was those directly compromising to blame not neccesarily what TWI taught as truth!
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CoolWaters
Which is why the way you beat people over the head with bible verses is very telling.
One at me...four back at yourself.
What did you do about it? Did you contact the authorities? Did you try to stop it? Did you do anything, lift one single sanctimonious finger to protect the children?
Yep.
No, mj, we are not talking about that. You are talking about that...you brought that thought pattern into the conversation as a way to browbeat parents.
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excathedra
i believe all our experiences were very very different
i "sort of" see myself as a child (back then) because i was emotionally and mentally screwed up at 18-19 and even after that. having been "taught" (but not really) you know incest and all.... played a part in my screwy mind.... long story
i did not have my own children in the way ministry
as i grew older and finally (thank you god) had a child, i teach him about EVERYTHING
--
let's give each other some slack. or at least realize we were all different people in the cult
BLAME ???????
jesus f'in christ i don't know where to begin
(((((((((((((((hugs to all)))))))))))))))
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rascal
I think that many of us were vulnerable and naieve ex, ....many of us had horrible childhoods, many with no one to educate or guide us....thus providing easy pickings for the predators.
What really sucks is that they took folks that had been already been kicked in the teeth by life....gave us hope built that trust and then betrayed and violated us yet again....
Ya wonder how a just God could let it happen.
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mj412
that is right Ex many sick where drawn into twi, they gave people hope and for some the family they never had in childhood.
Jesus never turned the ill away He healed them.. wise as serpents gentle as doves we are still talking humans I truly think some put others on pedestals so high they forgot that fact hence the absent Christ ideal .
One of the biggest errors was it got too large to manage personal issues more common and serious while people began to compete for positions just as the disciples did when Jesus walked the earth.
example the above posts from your dear friend.
Im not in a war cool waters you reveal yourself plainly and clearly. lol
god didnt allow anything bad to happen people sinned and consequences are a part of sin. I thank God for the Bible I do know it helps stop sin a great deal in ones life hence less truama and pain... and it only gets better in the kingdom.
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Abigail
"in a sense you can look at it like they tried to instruct parents on how to teach their children without being brutal... like the earlier thread said to get their attention etc. "
Telling parents its ok to leave bruises on a 2 year old child isn't brutal? This is teaching parents how to use the spoon correctly?
You are one very twisted individual, MJ.
"The fact that individuals would look to twi leaders for their guidance and life style and direction and then be shocked at what they got for answers is of no surprise to me. haha "
I'll bet it isn't. You're like a broken record on this one MJ. Projecting your own garbage all over everyone else in an attempt to make yourself feel better, regardless of who you trash and hurt in the process. CW was correct, you protest too much and in the process reveal your own weaknesses. You think you are teaching anyone here something? You think you are helping them? guiding them? counseling them? HA!
Look inside your own self and fix what is broken, then you will be truly able to help those around you. Until then, what spews forth out of your keyboard is nothing more than a reflection of your own self loathing. I could feel very sorry for you under different circumstances, but I have little pity for those who are so dishonest with their own self.
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mj412
Why did anyone need anyone eles approval for leaving bruises etc? hmm? it sounds like they said what you wanted to hear to me . If you wanted to leave your husband why didnt you? you needed their approval? come on plenty got divorced in twi for much less .
it was your problem abby and you sought answers you wanted to hear and got them that was also common in the way to many problems with to many intense deep mental and family problems knocking on the door of the leaders!!!
the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road you cant do much to help people when they want you to fix their life in gerneral . God is the solution in life. prayer would have been nice tho.
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CoolWaters
The original questions that opened this thread:
These questions have been answered repeatedly.
Even some of those who would prefer to point fingers and do the "nanny nanny boo boo, I'm better than you who" dance have admitted that child abuse not only happened in twi, but leadership ignored it.
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CoolWaters
mj, since this is just one example of many of the way you treat people now that you're out of twi, there's no doubt in my mind that you were one of the biggest culprits of perpetrating an atmosphere that harbored and protected abusers while you were in twi.
And although I rarerly, if ever, bring this up...
Since you're so much smarter and grown up and responsible than me or Abi or rascal...
Would you please spell correctly, use correct grammar and punctuation, and make full sentences? It would show me that your smarts are genuine. (Yes, I am that shallow...with folks like you...'cause being deep in a wading pool is useless.)
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mj412
I like ignore bettter than condone and harbored sex offenders much better! ignore is fine. we all ignored much in twi. haha I know I did .
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CoolWaters
Thank you!
Now that you've admitted it to yourself, can you see your culpability?
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mj412
to answer your question cool water , no.
and yes we all know your bold face accusations of great abuse with no proof other than what you think . lol no surprise there haha should I join the club of those who do not make you happy and you can now tell tall tales about? ok. no skin off my teeth .
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Abigail
Oh, I must have hit a sore spot, hmmmmm?
"it was your problem abby and you sought answers you wanted to hear "
your ignorance is showing again, MJ. That doesn't even make sense. If I had received the answers I wanted to hear I would probably still be with TWI.
"the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road"
No, their focus was on making money, they are a corporation and that is what corporations do. They actually prefer the almost dead cats though, the ones who still have money to give.
They aren't much interested in those people whose lives don't need fixing - big witness key, taught over and over by TWI, find the victim's area of need and help them get their need met. Suck em in, bleed em dry, toss them out.
Cept they didn't bleed me dry or toss me out, I left on my own. If my memory serves me correctly, you can't say that can you? You were kicked out, right? Or was that the offshoot that kicked you out? Who was the dead cat, MJ? Who did they bleed dry? They actually fought to keep me in. I took out a restraining order to insure they and my ex left me alone.
I'm sorry to be so cruel to you MJ. I generally try to be much kinder to people, but sometimes what goes around comes around.
Denial can be an a life saver when people are in a bad way. But denial taken too far or held on to for too long is very very unhealthy not only for the individual in denial but for those around the individual as well.
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CoolWaters
mj...duh..you admitted it...I didn't hold a gun to your head and make you type the admission...I just quoted you.
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excathedra
please forgive me, i haven't read the past maybe one-and-a-half pages or whatever
i'm suffering some sort of burnout
maybe tomorrow
love,
ex
i wanted to tell you a story about my brothers and a priest and my little brothers' different perspectives / reactions but i realize it's too much for me
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rascal
(((ex))) I am sorry.
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Abigail
And here is perhaps the most important part. You cannot condemn others nearly as much as you condemn yourself. Forgiveness is key. God looks on the heart and forgives. When you don't forgive yourself you are rejecting what God has given you.
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CoolWaters
Yes, Abi. Thank you for reminding me.
GSC would not be worth a darn to me if forgiveness...being forgiven and forgiving others...and healing up were not the payoff for participation.
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