Complete waste of time, money, heart and everything I wasted on that terrible outfit. Anything worthwhile that can be gleaned from it can be learned much more easily and less painfully and in less time just by living life and applying common sense. Any good is absolutely completely overshadowed by the vile thought and behavior control and abuse.
If you want to wreck your life, try heroin. It's cheaper, less destructive and easier to kick. Plus, you will find it easier to explain to others when they ask you what you wasted your youth on.
Burn HQ to the ground and turn it back into a farm if anything will still grow in that corrupted dirt. That's the nicest thing I can say about the organization, and don't get me started on its sick, perverted, lying, diseased founder or his successors.
And I'm in a good mood right now so I'm holding back.
Thats kind of a loaded question isnt it Daryl? If I jump in the barrel of that one I know that you'll pull the trigger and give me a ride. Its not like we can get the "top ten awesome truths" of every christian org, put them in a bag, dump them off at a new church and have the perfect place either is it? Thats because its about what people do more than what they say they are going to do. I think that if we just did the simple things God was asking us to do everyday,
we would never have to worry about wether we had enough "awesome truth."
My answer to your question is therefore this, I see some living epistles doing "positively awesome things", around the GS. I think thats the awesome truth. If there are 100 different awesome roads that people used to know Christ, that would be awesomely ok with me.
There is not one thing, not one, that I learned in TWI that I couldn't have learned somewhere else, "awesome" or not.
That's not to say that there was not some things that I learned and applied. There were, just that TWI's claim to be the only place teaching the whole truth was not true.
The TWI and offshoot cool aid drinkers still do not get it that the cool aid might even have good attributes and taste oh so yummy, but the arsenic in the cool aid is what kills and hurts people...
I'm not sure why Lynn still insists on holding to the twi myth of "teaches the word as it hasn't been known since the first century" crap. John, if you're reading this, do you still believe in the "snow on the gas pumps" story too? Everything wierwille taught can be found in the writings of the men that wierwille stole from. Ever read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"? It is almost EXACTLY like reading the pfal book...only difference was that Bullinger wrote it decades before wierwille did. All Veepee did was take, what he considered to be the best theology, from a half dozen or so Christian writers...put it together in a homogenous way and then stamp his own name on it, taking bows as the MOG. Whole sections of RTHST were lifted, word for word from "what's his name's" book. (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody can name him pretty quick).
Even if you say that wierwille putting together these different portions of theology from different writers, was God leading him to these things and teaching him to put it all together as he did...Why did wierwille take credit for someone elses work? It was dishonest and egotistical...Is that the heart that God selected to reveal this great truth too? To be our "teacher" and screw our women? wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill and JAL is not doing his own organization any favors by clinging to that old rotted vine.
I would suggest, that if there are certain portions of twi doctrine that you still believe are true...then give credit to the men who ORIGINALLY committed it to book form. Present it as an evolution of theological discoveries by numerous Christian writers, and then maybe people would find it more digestable...rather than continuing the "myth of the man", who was, actually no more than a grifter with delusions of grandeur...
Each of your replies to the question has been interesting.
I sincerely want to see what truth or presumed truth any person carried with them out of their experience with TWI.
I am not trying to get proof that there were ZERO truths or benefits, but I do think that the statements like JAL's "awesome truths, not known for centuries" need to be compared against definable results from those involved.
It has always seemed to me like "moving the word" really boiled down to getting new people into the organization who would eventually consider it their "spiritual" responsibility to get more people into the organization, and it continues on and on.
"Moving the word" seemed to equal just more people having some "truths to talk about",
but very little practical changes in their lives EXCEPT for TWI-brain accomplishments like obeying the leader and following their rules, and of course, "moving the word".
It is like circular reasoning, it doesn't compute.
While at the same time our personal resources and responses to deal with real life, real family and friends were not brought into play.
Anyway, thanks for all of your comments, and those yet to come.
"My question is: What specific doctrines or practices did you learn in your “way years” that are: Really usable in your “life”"
"And, that are not available (fitting the “not known for centuries” criterion) in other places where people teach, study, share the Bible, even in other times and places?"
Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?
The only problem that I see with 'the law of believing' is that if 'leaders' become Nazis, they will try to use your 'believing' against you. I think that was in error, not the 'law' but twisting it into a method of manipulating others and belittling them.
'Speaking in Tongues' still works for me and for mine. I fail to see how it is any less important if 5 other ministries do it, or if 100 do.
'Keys to research' by all means they came from Bullinger, so what? We owe a lot to Paul, we owe a lot to Martin Luther. Does that somehow subtract from anything, that we got protestant-ism from Luther? No, there have been many many believers who have made progresses for us. If they found something that works and helps to bring them closer to G-d, closer to His son Jesus, then wonderful. To my knowledge Every Christian ministry has borrowed bits and pieces from previous ministries, that is how it works.
The ability to study a topic, exhaustively from the Author of the Bible's point of view. I have debated the idea of 'word-studies' with men of other denominations. They truly don’t hold the Bible in the same level of integrity that I do. Saying, "it was written by men", "it has errors", and “only the developed doctrines issued from enlightened men's debate can be held as sacred".
I can go to sea with the agreement that I will study a specific topic, and my wife will also do the same. After months at sea, when I return, What I will have written in summing my study will be 90% the same as my wife's independent study. It will almost always contradict the 'Christian community standard' of wisdom.
Bullinger/VPW/TWI methods of doing a 'word-study' works. It does re-define entirely different definitions of commonly used words Biblical words and phrases.
Bonnie and I often find that we have been developing our own 'language', from this all.
Did/does TWI have problems? Sure. Do most clergy hire prostitutes like the Baptists did when I was a member there? Not that I have seen. Did/does TWI sponsor terrorist rebellions and smuggle guns into South America like the Methodists did when I was a member there? Not that I have seen or heard. Did/does TWI make little altar boys squeal? Not that I have seen or heard.
TWI is not the only denomination that has issues. But the basic doctrines have been such that we like most of them.
the truth I hve known in my life did not come from twi or CEs or John Lynn or any man woman or idiot.
the truth I have known came to my life by the utter grace of God almighty and His only begotten Son who redeemed my life with a Spirit that Has and always will stand as the only way or truth for every creature. It is Jesus christ who reigns as King of King and gives us all truth, not this silly little boy ....ing show of who knows more big words and twisted verses to fit your own ego trips of saving the world from evil .
The responses received thus far are not what you were hoping for?
A: Darrell
My hope in starting this post is to begin the process here at Greasespot of QUANTIFYING and QUALIFYING what anyone considers to be fruitful lessons successfully learned via TWI/ex TWI offshoots that carry "the good" from TWI and not the bad.
Much of the discussion here that I look at revolves around differing opinions of former twi'ers on how much "fish" and how much "bones" that person has to deal with.
In my personal story, over the years, as I studied I gradually moved away from twi doctrines as well as twi's approach to studying the bible.
I do not claim that my experience, or my conclusions are any better or worse, or more valid, than any one elses.
I do not think that there is only one path for ex-way people to take.
In all sincerity, it has been so long since I conversed with people familiar with twi vocab, and my memory is such that I might not remember things from last week let alone 25 years ago.
I maybe using more of the twi-side of my brain than I amaware of. ?? Who knows?
In addition to my story, I wanted, and am getting more specific posts where people are listing few positive "truths" than posts of specific things that benefit them now.
Would you like to comment on the lessons you learned in TWI that you feel are still benefiting you?
To Galen:
Q: Galen:
Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?
A: I never said they were invalid.
John Lynn said that there are awesome truths not known for centuries.
He, as well as most of the others who perceive they have enough fish after spitting out the bones, have stated that these truths were not known for centuries outside of TWI.
If it is true that there are truths not known for centuries as well as other places in the present culture, then they would be AWESOME.
I am just attempting to start a legit dialogue over what lessons learned in twi that fit the criteria as described by the most well known and highly placed officers of TWI, John Lynn.
You made some good points, I think there was some good stuff as you said.
I remember a time when the concept of only reading the word I found quite refreshing. The truth is, I still find that concept refreshing.
At the time I bumped into TWI, I was reading the paraphrase version, which as we all know is just the bible paraphrased. Certainly by emphasizing the translated word was a issue that was well needed. Twi did this.
"And, that are not available (fitting the “not known for centuries” criterion) in other places where people teach, study, share the Bible, even in other times and places?"
Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?
VPW sometimes referred to a vision that “if I study and teach the Word, it will be revealed to me as it has not been revealed since the first few centuries”.
It never occurred to me, that he meant that brand new doctrines would be revealed to him that had been forgotten for centuries. I understood him as saying that while there are thousands of doctrines already floating around out there; those ‘revealed’ to him would be the closest to that early church that had seen great rise and healing power in use.
I had not heard it said that his doctrines were to be totally brand new and otherwise un-known among mankind since 200AD until I heard it here on GS. Which was why so many were freaking out that many of VPW’s doctrines came from other previous theologians.
I have no problems with the idea of TWI doctrines coming from previous denominations or theologians; so long as they can be worked out in prayerful study of the Bible using detailed analysis of the individual words used, as well as the context and everything said by the Author previously.
Obviously TWI became an organization focused on the ‘bottom-line’ and with the ability to abuse it’s followers. But that was not what we were focused on doing within the Twigs.
“John Lynn said that there are awesome truths not known for centuries.”
Well Speaking in Tongues had largely disappeared from the Earth. Though now it is much more common.
If you dig through every written study from every theologian, you would most likely be able to ‘find’ most of the things JAL has seen. But buried away in a seminary library, and not brought out and practiced; is pretty much the same thing as being ‘not known’. Certainly ‘not known’ by the common street Christian.
“He, as well as most of the others who perceive they have enough fish after spitting out the bones, have stated that these truths were not known for centuries outside of TWI. If it is true that there are truths not known for centuries as well as other places in the present culture, then they would be AWESOME. I am just attempting to start a legit dialogue over what lessons learned in twi that fit the criteria as described by the most well known and highly placed officers of TWI, John Lynn.”
I don’t think that he was ever a corporate ‘officer’ of TWI, was he on the Board at some point?
Five crucified: was not ‘known’, though I have seen catholic churches with marble carved relief’s depicting the scene with five crucified. Just South of Rome, in little villages that were converted to Christianity during the Roman Empire. The churches are still there, does that make it a part of the common Christian experience? No. It is something that has been forgotten by the popular main-stream movement. [The church that comes most readily to mind, I toured with my family, was not truly that old, maybe 8th century or so.]
"You made some good points, I think there was some good stuff as you said."
uh, thank you.
"I remember a time when the concept of only reading the word I found quite refreshing. The truth is, I still find that concept refreshing."
So you would be interested in a TWI-1 style fellowship, good. One done, many others to go.
:-)
"At the time I bumped into TWI, I was reading the paraphrase version, which as we all know is just the bible paraphrased. Certainly by emphasizing the translated word was a issue that was well needed. Twi did this."
I am glad that there was something that you did find and have been able to hold on to, through all the turmoil and evil that later developed.
I suppose it would take 2 pages of a letter to indicate my feelings.
I always thought that TWI could have served a good purpose with the mainstream Christian church.
To do so they would have had to drop the Trinity issue, drop the 1st century church thing and indicate that sincerity is the leaven that makes the Lord vibrant in others life.
I remember years ago when I was involved in doctrinal disputes with Pentacostal types. My attitude was so ferocius that it made everything that I said questionable in there eyes. Knowledge without love isnt the good word of God either, all it creates is strife.
Anyways, there certainly was good stuff that TWI taught. I never disputed that. Neither have I once called TWI a cult and why? Because I think it does diservice to the people who simply wanted to know more about the Lord.
I expereinced a similar breakup of a small church group that was Pentacostal years ago. From that group I have a 2 year Bible diploma that has no value. The group no longer exists.
There are a some other Biblical interpetation principals that I have picked up that I never heard at TWI at all. One is the concept of "typeology" where the book of Hebrews discribes Old Testament furniture and sacrifices as shawdows or types of the heavenly. I have found this interesting as well. Invisible Dan, has pointed out some historical perspectives that are real cool.
I think that the Kool Aid concept from some other authors is mean spirited. But when I see some talk about the abuses, I certainly understand where they are coming from. For me Galen, it took me several years to get over the Pentacostal church breakup. I only seemed to get real healthy after my attitude towards those people changed and I was loving.
With respect to Lynn and CES and The Way, I think its approbriate for people to point out the things that they thought hurt them. The flip side is that it should be done also in love for there own sake also. If you think I was overly harsh I apologize. I am new to GS, and prior I was chatting on the ESPN sports boards. The mud slinging in there is ferocious. Personally I dont want to get in any more doctrinal disputes, I think they end up poorly most of the time.
"I remember years ago when I was involved in doctrinal disputes with Pentacostal types. My attitude was so ferocius that it made everything that I said questionable in there eyes. Knowledge without love isnt the good word of God either, all it creates is strife."
True.
". . . Neither have I once called TWI a cult and why? Because I think it does diservice to the people who simply wanted to know more about the Lord."
Sounds about right to me.
"I expereinced a similar breakup of a small church group that was Pentacostal years ago. From that group I have a 2 year Bible diploma that has no value. The group no longer exists."
I have to wonder sometimes [since over the years many 'good' ministrys do start-up, then later dissolve] if 'Pikes Peak Theological Seminary' wasn't like that.
In my opinion that does not lessen the value of the time, energy and focus that you spent in study, nor would it lessen those things for anyone else, including VPW.
"There are a some other Biblical interpetation principals that I have picked up that I never heard at TWI at all. One is the concept of "typeology" . . . "
Yes, good methods of 'seeing' a greater meaning.
"I think that the Kool Aid concept from some other authors is mean spirited."
I agree.
"With respect to Lynn and CES and The Way, I think its approbriate for people to point out the things that they thought hurt them. The flip side is that it should be done also in love for there own sake also."
I agree.
"If you think I was overly harsh I apologize"
Not at all, I too apologize if I was overly mean. I did not intend to sound that way. Sorry. I try to put smiley faces to show that I am goofying and mean no insult. I must forget sometimes. Bless you.
"Personally I dont want to get in any more doctrinal disputes, I think they end up poorly most of the time."
True.
I had only meant that since you want a simple loving Bible study group that can help each other and yet guard one another; that is what many of us had during TWI-1. That is what I would desire again today as well. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to join together once again; sing praises to the Lord, pray, and then take turns sharing what each of us has learned from the Bible recently.
Galen, I find that very interesting about you and your wife discovering very similar things in your separate studies. And the churches you mention with five crosses are fascinating.
I have done a lot of research into the KJV period's definitions for lots of words related to Master, Lord, apprentice, servant, etc.
As well as the mystery plays of old.
I see indications from that research that there may indeed have been a much more robust understanding of Spiritual things that can be found in the words and works of that time, yet the theology that prompted them may have been lost to us.
The way used to offer a class during their summer school (in addition to the advanced class) called "The Taberncale".
I never took the class but from the description of the class I know it was about Hebrews and the types in the Old Testament.
After I stopped fellowshipping with the twi I discovered several well-known authors (to Christians outside the way) with gobs of fantastic examples of types in the O.T.
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Darrell Bailey
oops.
My underlines did not carry.
Please excuse. So sorry.
DB
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Jason P
Nothing.
Zero.
Zip.
Nada.
Complete waste of time, money, heart and everything I wasted on that terrible outfit. Anything worthwhile that can be gleaned from it can be learned much more easily and less painfully and in less time just by living life and applying common sense. Any good is absolutely completely overshadowed by the vile thought and behavior control and abuse.
If you want to wreck your life, try heroin. It's cheaper, less destructive and easier to kick. Plus, you will find it easier to explain to others when they ask you what you wasted your youth on.
Burn HQ to the ground and turn it back into a farm if anything will still grow in that corrupted dirt. That's the nicest thing I can say about the organization, and don't get me started on its sick, perverted, lying, diseased founder or his successors.
And I'm in a good mood right now so I'm holding back.
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sky4it
Daryl:
Thats kind of a loaded question isnt it Daryl? If I jump in the barrel of that one I know that you'll pull the trigger and give me a ride. Its not like we can get the "top ten awesome truths" of every christian org, put them in a bag, dump them off at a new church and have the perfect place either is it? Thats because its about what people do more than what they say they are going to do. I think that if we just did the simple things God was asking us to do everyday,
we would never have to worry about wether we had enough "awesome truth."
My answer to your question is therefore this, I see some living epistles doing "positively awesome things", around the GS. I think thats the awesome truth. If there are 100 different awesome roads that people used to know Christ, that would be awesomely ok with me.
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Oakspear
There is not one thing, not one, that I learned in TWI that I couldn't have learned somewhere else, "awesome" or not.
That's not to say that there was not some things that I learned and applied. There were, just that TWI's claim to be the only place teaching the whole truth was not true.
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pjroberge
The TWI and offshoot cool aid drinkers still do not get it that the cool aid might even have good attributes and taste oh so yummy, but the arsenic in the cool aid is what kills and hurts people...
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nonameplease
Let's see:
I do remember one truth - lcm was having sex outside his marriage.
It was a gross understatement, but it WAS true.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'm not sure why Lynn still insists on holding to the twi myth of "teaches the word as it hasn't been known since the first century" crap. John, if you're reading this, do you still believe in the "snow on the gas pumps" story too? Everything wierwille taught can be found in the writings of the men that wierwille stole from. Ever read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"? It is almost EXACTLY like reading the pfal book...only difference was that Bullinger wrote it decades before wierwille did. All Veepee did was take, what he considered to be the best theology, from a half dozen or so Christian writers...put it together in a homogenous way and then stamp his own name on it, taking bows as the MOG. Whole sections of RTHST were lifted, word for word from "what's his name's" book. (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody can name him pretty quick).
Even if you say that wierwille putting together these different portions of theology from different writers, was God leading him to these things and teaching him to put it all together as he did...Why did wierwille take credit for someone elses work? It was dishonest and egotistical...Is that the heart that God selected to reveal this great truth too? To be our "teacher" and screw our women? wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill and JAL is not doing his own organization any favors by clinging to that old rotted vine.
I would suggest, that if there are certain portions of twi doctrine that you still believe are true...then give credit to the men who ORIGINALLY committed it to book form. Present it as an evolution of theological discoveries by numerous Christian writers, and then maybe people would find it more digestable...rather than continuing the "myth of the man", who was, actually no more than a grifter with delusions of grandeur...
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sky4it
uncle hairy:
I never knew that stuff when i walked from "The Way" that you said.
I simply knew that my sincerity was good for something. But thanks for the info.
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Darrell Bailey
Each of your replies to the question has been interesting.
I sincerely want to see what truth or presumed truth any person carried with them out of their experience with TWI.
I am not trying to get proof that there were ZERO truths or benefits, but I do think that the statements like JAL's "awesome truths, not known for centuries" need to be compared against definable results from those involved.
It has always seemed to me like "moving the word" really boiled down to getting new people into the organization who would eventually consider it their "spiritual" responsibility to get more people into the organization, and it continues on and on.
"Moving the word" seemed to equal just more people having some "truths to talk about",
but very little practical changes in their lives EXCEPT for TWI-brain accomplishments like obeying the leader and following their rules, and of course, "moving the word".
It is like circular reasoning, it doesn't compute.
While at the same time our personal resources and responses to deal with real life, real family and friends were not brought into play.
Anyway, thanks for all of your comments, and those yet to come.
God Bless,
Darrell
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Shellon
Darrell, I dunno, I'm not getting it. The responses received thus far are not what you were hoping for?
I'd love to attempt an answer, myself, but don't clearly understand which truths, or lack thereof, you are speaking of.
Clarify please?
:)-->
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rascal
Exactly Darell, Our spirituality was ALWAYS measured by
A) how many people we brought to twig/class etc....
B) by which classes/programs we had completed....
C) how meek we were to bu tt chewings
D) the alacrity with which we obeyed leaderships *suggestions*
E) How much money we had to contribute.
The greatest truth carried away from twi? Damn, I hate to say this...sigh ... my Mom and friends were right :-( (it WAS a cult)
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Galen
Darrell Bailey:
"My question is: What specific doctrines or practices did you learn in your “way years” that are: Really usable in your “life”"
"And, that are not available (fitting the “not known for centuries” criterion) in other places where people teach, study, share the Bible, even in other times and places?"
Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?
The only problem that I see with 'the law of believing' is that if 'leaders' become Nazis, they will try to use your 'believing' against you. I think that was in error, not the 'law' but twisting it into a method of manipulating others and belittling them.
'Speaking in Tongues' still works for me and for mine. I fail to see how it is any less important if 5 other ministries do it, or if 100 do.
'Keys to research' by all means they came from Bullinger, so what? We owe a lot to Paul, we owe a lot to Martin Luther. Does that somehow subtract from anything, that we got protestant-ism from Luther? No, there have been many many believers who have made progresses for us. If they found something that works and helps to bring them closer to G-d, closer to His son Jesus, then wonderful. To my knowledge Every Christian ministry has borrowed bits and pieces from previous ministries, that is how it works.
The ability to study a topic, exhaustively from the Author of the Bible's point of view. I have debated the idea of 'word-studies' with men of other denominations. They truly don’t hold the Bible in the same level of integrity that I do. Saying, "it was written by men", "it has errors", and “only the developed doctrines issued from enlightened men's debate can be held as sacred".
I can go to sea with the agreement that I will study a specific topic, and my wife will also do the same. After months at sea, when I return, What I will have written in summing my study will be 90% the same as my wife's independent study. It will almost always contradict the 'Christian community standard' of wisdom.
Bullinger/VPW/TWI methods of doing a 'word-study' works. It does re-define entirely different definitions of commonly used words Biblical words and phrases.
Bonnie and I often find that we have been developing our own 'language', from this all.
Did/does TWI have problems? Sure. Do most clergy hire prostitutes like the Baptists did when I was a member there? Not that I have seen. Did/does TWI sponsor terrorist rebellions and smuggle guns into South America like the Methodists did when I was a member there? Not that I have seen or heard. Did/does TWI make little altar boys squeal? Not that I have seen or heard.
TWI is not the only denomination that has issues. But the basic doctrines have been such that we like most of them.
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mj412
the truth I hve known in my life did not come from twi or CEs or John Lynn or any man woman or idiot.
the truth I have known came to my life by the utter grace of God almighty and His only begotten Son who redeemed my life with a Spirit that Has and always will stand as the only way or truth for every creature. It is Jesus christ who reigns as King of King and gives us all truth, not this silly little boy ....ing show of who knows more big words and twisted verses to fit your own ego trips of saving the world from evil .
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Darrell Bailey
To Shellon:
Q: Shellon:
The responses received thus far are not what you were hoping for?
A: Darrell
My hope in starting this post is to begin the process here at Greasespot of QUANTIFYING and QUALIFYING what anyone considers to be fruitful lessons successfully learned via TWI/ex TWI offshoots that carry "the good" from TWI and not the bad.
Much of the discussion here that I look at revolves around differing opinions of former twi'ers on how much "fish" and how much "bones" that person has to deal with.
In my personal story, over the years, as I studied I gradually moved away from twi doctrines as well as twi's approach to studying the bible.
I do not claim that my experience, or my conclusions are any better or worse, or more valid, than any one elses.
I do not think that there is only one path for ex-way people to take.
In all sincerity, it has been so long since I conversed with people familiar with twi vocab, and my memory is such that I might not remember things from last week let alone 25 years ago.
I maybe using more of the twi-side of my brain than I amaware of. ?? Who knows?
In addition to my story, I wanted, and am getting more specific posts where people are listing few positive "truths" than posts of specific things that benefit them now.
Would you like to comment on the lessons you learned in TWI that you feel are still benefiting you?
To Galen:
Q: Galen:
Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?
A: I never said they were invalid.
John Lynn said that there are awesome truths not known for centuries.
He, as well as most of the others who perceive they have enough fish after spitting out the bones, have stated that these truths were not known for centuries outside of TWI.
If it is true that there are truths not known for centuries as well as other places in the present culture, then they would be AWESOME.
I am just attempting to start a legit dialogue over what lessons learned in twi that fit the criteria as described by the most well known and highly placed officers of TWI, John Lynn.
Darrell
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Shellon
I will follow along and see if I get it from the responses. Thanks for trying to explain further to me.
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Jim
Here's some AwesomeTruths from TWI that I've learned.
1. Money invested in real estate has a better rate of return than money invested in TWI.
2. Time invested in a college degree has a better rate of return than time invested in TWI.
3. Most, if not all, religious leaders have clay feet.
4. Saying "sincerity is no guarantee of truth" is no guarantee of truth.
5. Millet for breakfast sucks.
6. Ohio is too hot and humid in the summer.
7. Ohio is too cold and windy in the winter.
8. Cornfields are best used to grow corn.
9. "Bless Patrol" is an oxymoron.
10. My job on earth is not to "spread the Word".
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sky4it
Galen:
You made some good points, I think there was some good stuff as you said.
I remember a time when the concept of only reading the word I found quite refreshing. The truth is, I still find that concept refreshing.
At the time I bumped into TWI, I was reading the paraphrase version, which as we all know is just the bible paraphrased. Certainly by emphasizing the translated word was a issue that was well needed. Twi did this.
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Galen
Darrell Bailey:
"And, that are not available (fitting the “not known for centuries” criterion) in other places where people teach, study, share the Bible, even in other times and places?"
Why would they become in-valid if they can be found in some other ministry?
VPW sometimes referred to a vision that “if I study and teach the Word, it will be revealed to me as it has not been revealed since the first few centuries”.
It never occurred to me, that he meant that brand new doctrines would be revealed to him that had been forgotten for centuries. I understood him as saying that while there are thousands of doctrines already floating around out there; those ‘revealed’ to him would be the closest to that early church that had seen great rise and healing power in use.
I had not heard it said that his doctrines were to be totally brand new and otherwise un-known among mankind since 200AD until I heard it here on GS. Which was why so many were freaking out that many of VPW’s doctrines came from other previous theologians.
I have no problems with the idea of TWI doctrines coming from previous denominations or theologians; so long as they can be worked out in prayerful study of the Bible using detailed analysis of the individual words used, as well as the context and everything said by the Author previously.
Obviously TWI became an organization focused on the ‘bottom-line’ and with the ability to abuse it’s followers. But that was not what we were focused on doing within the Twigs.
“John Lynn said that there are awesome truths not known for centuries.”
Well Speaking in Tongues had largely disappeared from the Earth. Though now it is much more common.
If you dig through every written study from every theologian, you would most likely be able to ‘find’ most of the things JAL has seen. But buried away in a seminary library, and not brought out and practiced; is pretty much the same thing as being ‘not known’. Certainly ‘not known’ by the common street Christian.
“He, as well as most of the others who perceive they have enough fish after spitting out the bones, have stated that these truths were not known for centuries outside of TWI. If it is true that there are truths not known for centuries as well as other places in the present culture, then they would be AWESOME. I am just attempting to start a legit dialogue over what lessons learned in twi that fit the criteria as described by the most well known and highly placed officers of TWI, John Lynn.”
I don’t think that he was ever a corporate ‘officer’ of TWI, was he on the Board at some point?
Five crucified: was not ‘known’, though I have seen catholic churches with marble carved relief’s depicting the scene with five crucified. Just South of Rome, in little villages that were converted to Christianity during the Roman Empire. The churches are still there, does that make it a part of the common Christian experience? No. It is something that has been forgotten by the popular main-stream movement. [The church that comes most readily to mind, I toured with my family, was not truly that old, maybe 8th century or so.]
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Galen
sky4it:
"You made some good points, I think there was some good stuff as you said."
uh, thank you.
"I remember a time when the concept of only reading the word I found quite refreshing. The truth is, I still find that concept refreshing."
So you would be interested in a TWI-1 style fellowship, good. One done, many others to go.
:-)
"At the time I bumped into TWI, I was reading the paraphrase version, which as we all know is just the bible paraphrased. Certainly by emphasizing the translated word was a issue that was well needed. Twi did this."
I am glad that there was something that you did find and have been able to hold on to, through all the turmoil and evil that later developed.
Bless you.
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sky4it
Galen:
I suppose it would take 2 pages of a letter to indicate my feelings.
I always thought that TWI could have served a good purpose with the mainstream Christian church.
To do so they would have had to drop the Trinity issue, drop the 1st century church thing and indicate that sincerity is the leaven that makes the Lord vibrant in others life.
I remember years ago when I was involved in doctrinal disputes with Pentacostal types. My attitude was so ferocius that it made everything that I said questionable in there eyes. Knowledge without love isnt the good word of God either, all it creates is strife.
Anyways, there certainly was good stuff that TWI taught. I never disputed that. Neither have I once called TWI a cult and why? Because I think it does diservice to the people who simply wanted to know more about the Lord.
I expereinced a similar breakup of a small church group that was Pentacostal years ago. From that group I have a 2 year Bible diploma that has no value. The group no longer exists.
There are a some other Biblical interpetation principals that I have picked up that I never heard at TWI at all. One is the concept of "typeology" where the book of Hebrews discribes Old Testament furniture and sacrifices as shawdows or types of the heavenly. I have found this interesting as well. Invisible Dan, has pointed out some historical perspectives that are real cool.
I think that the Kool Aid concept from some other authors is mean spirited. But when I see some talk about the abuses, I certainly understand where they are coming from. For me Galen, it took me several years to get over the Pentacostal church breakup. I only seemed to get real healthy after my attitude towards those people changed and I was loving.
With respect to Lynn and CES and The Way, I think its approbriate for people to point out the things that they thought hurt them. The flip side is that it should be done also in love for there own sake also. If you think I was overly harsh I apologize. I am new to GS, and prior I was chatting on the ESPN sports boards. The mud slinging in there is ferocious. Personally I dont want to get in any more doctrinal disputes, I think they end up poorly most of the time.
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Galen
sky4it:
"I remember years ago when I was involved in doctrinal disputes with Pentacostal types. My attitude was so ferocius that it made everything that I said questionable in there eyes. Knowledge without love isnt the good word of God either, all it creates is strife."
True.
". . . Neither have I once called TWI a cult and why? Because I think it does diservice to the people who simply wanted to know more about the Lord."
Sounds about right to me.
"I expereinced a similar breakup of a small church group that was Pentacostal years ago. From that group I have a 2 year Bible diploma that has no value. The group no longer exists."
I have to wonder sometimes [since over the years many 'good' ministrys do start-up, then later dissolve] if 'Pikes Peak Theological Seminary' wasn't like that.
In my opinion that does not lessen the value of the time, energy and focus that you spent in study, nor would it lessen those things for anyone else, including VPW.
"There are a some other Biblical interpetation principals that I have picked up that I never heard at TWI at all. One is the concept of "typeology" . . . "
Yes, good methods of 'seeing' a greater meaning.
"I think that the Kool Aid concept from some other authors is mean spirited."
I agree.
"With respect to Lynn and CES and The Way, I think its approbriate for people to point out the things that they thought hurt them. The flip side is that it should be done also in love for there own sake also."
I agree.
"If you think I was overly harsh I apologize"
Not at all, I too apologize if I was overly mean. I did not intend to sound that way. Sorry. I try to put smiley faces to show that I am goofying and mean no insult. I must forget sometimes. Bless you.
"Personally I dont want to get in any more doctrinal disputes, I think they end up poorly most of the time."
True.
I had only meant that since you want a simple loving Bible study group that can help each other and yet guard one another; that is what many of us had during TWI-1. That is what I would desire again today as well. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to join together once again; sing praises to the Lord, pray, and then take turns sharing what each of us has learned from the Bible recently.
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sky4it
Galen:
Thanks for the reply.
The way my life is today, the best church for me would probably be the "Living by the seat of your pants church."
Personally right now I am enjoying the people here at GS.
We should ask Paw to change the term doctrine to bible stuff for a heading. I think the term doctrine has everyone frightened for obvious reasons.
Anyways nice to have a cordial talk with you Galen, I will see you on the flip side.
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Darrell Bailey
Thanks to all who have posted.
I appreciate hearing from everyone.
Galen, I find that very interesting about you and your wife discovering very similar things in your separate studies. And the churches you mention with five crosses are fascinating.
I have done a lot of research into the KJV period's definitions for lots of words related to Master, Lord, apprentice, servant, etc.
As well as the mystery plays of old.
I see indications from that research that there may indeed have been a much more robust understanding of Spiritual things that can be found in the words and works of that time, yet the theology that prompted them may have been lost to us.
Once again, God Bless You all.
Darrell
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Darrell Bailey
P.S. Sky4it,
The way used to offer a class during their summer school (in addition to the advanced class) called "The Taberncale".
I never took the class but from the description of the class I know it was about Hebrews and the types in the Old Testament.
After I stopped fellowshipping with the twi I discovered several well-known authors (to Christians outside the way) with gobs of fantastic examples of types in the O.T.
One is called "Portraits of Christ in Genesis".
Darrell
saw
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