SHort in absolute terms? Or merely in comparison with Atlas Shrugged & The Fountainhead? I'm tempted, so long as I don't totally fall off in total Rand-ism again...
quote:Or merely in comparison with Atlas Shrugged & The Fountainhead? I'm tempted, so long as I don't totally fall off in total Rand-ism again...
My first reaction exactly. She's a wordy and engaging author that can tie you up for weeks. I don't particularly sign off on her idealogy, but I will credit her with some excellent writing.
Former Wayfers might enjoy reading "Judgement Day" by Nathaniel Branden. He was a major player in the inner circle of Ayn Rand's, uh, er, cul.., organization. (He was also her lover for a time).
Anyway, the parallels to WayWorld will be evident to anyone. An eyeopener for me when I first left TWI, and a good read besides...
quote:To be free, a man must be free of his brothers. That is freedom. This and nothing else.
But the question is, is that the way God wants or desires us to live? Being free from our brothers? Being free from everything else, except our own egos to relish and worship?
quote:You think religion is for suckers and easy marks and moddly cuddlers, eh. You think Jesus Christ was some kind of sissy?!!? Well, let me tell you, Jesus wouldn't be afraid to walk into this joint or any other joint to preach the Gospel. Jesus had guts
OM -- your reaction to Rand's quote proves you don't get it.... I think maybe you need to read a little more on the subject. You may not understand freedom as you think she is expounding it...
There is a John Galt Blvd. up in Omaha. The studios of a major FM radio station are located there; occassionally one of the morning guys will go off on a "Who Is John Galt?" rant.
I haven't yet gotten to the point in the book where John Galt appears, but I did skip ahead and saw that he does :D-->
...and Oldiesman, you don't get the quote, if I may be so bold. Giving to one's "brothers" is slavery when it is under compulsion. Rand's characters can be giving, but resist when it is forced upon them.
There is a John Galt Blvd. up in Omaha. The studios of a major FM radio station are located there; occassionally one of the morning guys will go off on a "Who Is John Galt?" rant.
Is that a supportive, or denigrating "rant"?? --> John Galt can polarize people just like Mike! :D-->
I read Atlas Shrugged many years ago, and enjoyed it. It did take a while to wade through it though. Especially John Galt's radio broadcast in the latter part of the book. Seems like that went on forever! -->
WB -- I'll be "on the hunt" for Anthem. Thanks. And Geo -- I'll be looking for Judgement Day also. They both sound good.
quote:...and Oldiesman, you don't get the quote, if I may be so bold. Giving to one's "brothers" is slavery when it is under compulsion. Rand's characters can be giving, but resist when it is forced upon them.
Oakspear,
In God's Kingdom, he expects us to give, doesn't he? I don't see where we are true free agents, doing what our own egos feel like doing, and that way being acceptable with God. I think Rands views, and Libertarianism in general, desirable as they may be, are not compatible with true Christianity, for Christians are compelled to do good and obey God's Laws, not to feed to the dictates of their own egos. And in the Third Heaven and Earth, will things be any different? You think you'll be free? Free to do what you will? You remember the word slavery is not a bad word in the bible, for good reason.
Oldies, Rand was an unapologetic atheist. Her points generally cannot be argued within the context of Christianity, or metaphysics of any kind. But let me make my point using your book:
quote:Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudging, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Where did you get such a twisted view of the message of Christ? Aren't we called to act from love as God acted from love when he gave His Son? Where do you find that God compels us to act from any other place. Sure, He asks us to submit to His Will but even that is to be done from love not from a sense of duty as a slave for a master. Didn't Paul express this clearly in I Corinthians 13 "if I...have not charity, I am nothing."?
TWI was able to manipulate us because we allowed them to define what our duties were. If you accept the idea that God made us to be "duty-bots" then it is no wonder why you look back on your days in TWI-1 so glowingly.
I think this topic is an interesting discussion and worth exploring. I do see some of the differences between what Rand is saying, and what Christianity/twi/other religions are espousing. The fact that Rand is an atheist fits right in with it. Hey, I'm not knocking it. I like Libertarian stuff, and as a political system, I think it's the best. All I'm saying is, the idea that we are our own gods, and we are totally free to follow our own egos, so to speak, just doesn't seem to fit with the bible and Christianity.
What about the third heavens and earth? have you thought about it at all? what's it going to be like as far as you having free will? in other words, if the Lord asks you to jump, will you be able to politely decline and go to McDonalds for a Big Mac?
quote:I don't see where we are true free agents, doing what our own egos feel like doing, and that way being acceptable with God.
Yes, Oldies, to answer your question, I DO believe we are truly free agents. Adam AND Jesus proved that. They just made different choices.
As Oenophile said, when we CHOOSE to follow what we believe God wants us to do out of love, that is what He asks us to do because what we do outside of love = nothing.
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TheEvan
SHort in absolute terms? Or merely in comparison with Atlas Shrugged & The Fountainhead? I'm tempted, so long as I don't totally fall off in total Rand-ism again...
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Jim
My first reaction exactly. She's a wordy and engaging author that can tie you up for weeks. I don't particularly sign off on her idealogy, but I will credit her with some excellent writing.
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George Aar
I've made this pitch before, but what the hay,
Former Wayfers might enjoy reading "Judgement Day" by Nathaniel Branden. He was a major player in the inner circle of Ayn Rand's, uh, er, cul.., organization. (He was also her lover for a time).
Anyway, the parallels to WayWorld will be evident to anyone. An eyeopener for me when I first left TWI, and a good read besides...
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Oakspear
Anthem is short by anyone's standards. The copy I had was 50% taken up by notes and revisions.
Despite the investment of time, I've enjoyed The Fountainhead and We the Living and am currently slogging through Atlas Shrugged
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Jim
While we're on the subject of "books that make you wish you'd never joined a cult", I also nominate Elmer Gantry by Sinclair Lewis.
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waterbuffalo
Thanks, George and Jim. I'll check those out.
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oldiesman
Rand writes:
But the question is, is that the way God wants or desires us to live? Being free from our brothers? Being free from everything else, except our own egos to relish and worship?
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Radar OReilly
I second the nomination for Elmer Gantry.
ROR
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oldiesman
I like Burt Lancaster.
:)-->
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oldiesman
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satori001
Oldiesman is an Elmer Gantry fan. No irony there.
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alfakat
OM -- your reaction to Rand's quote proves you don't get it.... I think maybe you need to read a little more on the subject. You may not understand freedom as you think she is expounding it...
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waterbuffalo
I second that.
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Sudo
Oakspear,
I loved Atlas Shrugged. But you didn't get to actually MEET John Galt until halfway through the dang book!
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Oakspear
There is a John Galt Blvd. up in Omaha. The studios of a major FM radio station are located there; occassionally one of the morning guys will go off on a "Who Is John Galt?" rant.
I haven't yet gotten to the point in the book where John Galt appears, but I did skip ahead and saw that he does
:D-->
...and Oldiesman, you don't get the quote, if I may be so bold. Giving to one's "brothers" is slavery when it is under compulsion. Rand's characters can be giving, but resist when it is forced upon them.
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dmiller
Is that a supportive, or denigrating "rant"??
--> John Galt can polarize people just like Mike! 
:D-->
I read Atlas Shrugged many years ago, and enjoyed it. It did take a while to wade through it though. Especially John Galt's radio broadcast in the latter part of the book. Seems like that went on forever!
-->
WB -- I'll be "on the hunt" for Anthem. Thanks. And Geo -- I'll be looking for Judgement Day also. They both sound good.
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Peruser
I enjoyed 'Atlas Shrugged,' read it just a few (~5) years ago. Also read 'Anthem,' but much longer ago - high school. "We" liked that book, too.
I admit skipping over several pages of of 'Atlas Shrugged,' I just didn't have the patience to read every word of those "streams of conciousness."
'The Fountainhead' is one of Rand's I haven't read yet, but plan to, once I finish the LeCarre' and Clancy books that I'm currently reading.
----------
Per
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oldiesman
Oakspear,
In God's Kingdom, he expects us to give, doesn't he? I don't see where we are true free agents, doing what our own egos feel like doing, and that way being acceptable with God. I think Rands views, and Libertarianism in general, desirable as they may be, are not compatible with true Christianity, for Christians are compelled to do good and obey God's Laws, not to feed to the dictates of their own egos. And in the Third Heaven and Earth, will things be any different? You think you'll be free? Free to do what you will? You remember the word slavery is not a bad word in the bible, for good reason.
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Oakspear
Oldies, Rand was an unapologetic atheist. Her points generally cannot be argued within the context of Christianity, or metaphysics of any kind. But let me make my point using your book:
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oenophile
OM,
Where did you get such a twisted view of the message of Christ? Aren't we called to act from love as God acted from love when he gave His Son? Where do you find that God compels us to act from any other place. Sure, He asks us to submit to His Will but even that is to be done from love not from a sense of duty as a slave for a master. Didn't Paul express this clearly in I Corinthians 13 "if I...have not charity, I am nothing."?
TWI was able to manipulate us because we allowed them to define what our duties were. If you accept the idea that God made us to be "duty-bots" then it is no wonder why you look back on your days in TWI-1 so glowingly.
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oldiesman
Oenophile,
I think this topic is an interesting discussion and worth exploring. I do see some of the differences between what Rand is saying, and what Christianity/twi/other religions are espousing. The fact that Rand is an atheist fits right in with it. Hey, I'm not knocking it. I like Libertarian stuff, and as a political system, I think it's the best. All I'm saying is, the idea that we are our own gods, and we are totally free to follow our own egos, so to speak, just doesn't seem to fit with the bible and Christianity.
What about the third heavens and earth? have you thought about it at all? what's it going to be like as far as you having free will? in other words, if the Lord asks you to jump, will you be able to politely decline and go to McDonalds for a Big Mac?
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waterbuffalo
Oldies said:
Yes, Oldies, to answer your question, I DO believe we are truly free agents. Adam AND Jesus proved that. They just made different choices.
As Oenophile said, when we CHOOSE to follow what we believe God wants us to do out of love, that is what He asks us to do because what we do outside of love = nothing.
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