How many times is it necessary to sit through the thing to get it? I haven't been through a PFAL class in over 20 years now, but I think I still remember the major concepts and minor points. Show me a scripture, and I can probably tell you how VPW "handled" it.
I think there's a point at which sitting through the thing only yields new trivia, like how many times VP says "that's riiight" in session 3. (I have no idea!) I also think there's a point at which it becomes idolatry.
Amen Ex! Gosh it has been 19 years for me as well.... The only thing I can figure is that we were TOLD that pfal was the end all be all holy grail of christianity....and we believed it.
We were too young and naieve to have had enough life experiences to realise that there were other very legitimate christian groups...it never occured to us to doubt what we were told.
Guest spouse and I have been going round and round about something lately that reminds me of how we were with pfal....see
we have this old ratty second hand den furniture....we have had it for years....it is stained and ratty from all of the kids dirty feet spilled juice....etc.
Now granted it has served our purpose for many years...each piece has been entirely functional....but being second hand from different sources...nothing matches or fits very well in OUR den... ....and granted... when we got the pieces ....we were glad to have them.......and because we didn`t have any OTHER furniture...and though tired and second hand...they seemed adequate ....
The problem is...now spouse does not want to get rid of the garbage that he is accustomed to ....you have to throw out the old living room furniture BEFORE you have room for the newer better higher quality living room suit...Now, we can keep a few of the pieces of furniture that have withstood the ravages of time and childrens abuse that remain functional and have value...but you know...you still have to get rid of the garbage in order to enjoy better furniture.
My father has offered us a complete living room suit...that looks new....it will look lovely in the den....but guess what?
My husband won`t let me throw away the OLD furniture to make a spot for the new...(s`funny he is that wy about a half dozen vehicles sitting in the yard not running as well)
now mind you he is able to ignore the filth or the back cushion of one recliner was chewed away by the dog and the reclining handle is broken on the other....One recliner is broken and sits sideways...I can see that it is garbage... I am embarrassed to have anyone walk into my home because THEY can see that though it gets the job done.....it is garbage...but in spite of what the rest of us can all see.... it STILL has value to Mark...he worked for it he paid for it ..he hauled it home....and besides that the kids would just destroy the new furniture anyway....
So we sit on the same old drap dilapidated (though marginally) functional mis matched furniture. It is sad because there is so much better available to enjoy....Spouse will never enjoy the new quality furniture that is available for us while he insists on keeping the garbage the den....
That is how I feel about our spirituality and at times unreasonable attatchment to pfal/twi teachings and life style.
It has GOT to be good because we invested such an enormous amount....we ignore the rips and stains ...the faint aroma of cat urin that one chair exudes.....and convince ourselves that this is the only stuff worth having anyway ..thus completely ignoring the fact that there is an entire world of lovely *furniture* out there for us to enjoy with a minimal of effort...many different styles to suit ones individual tastes as well.
I intend to hold on to the few precious pieces that have retained their value and when spouses back is turned...lol haul the rest of the worn out *furniture* to the burn pile with the rest of the garbage..
Can you stand another analogy? (I guess that I am venting TOO lol)
The afore mentioned vehicles...every vehicle we have ever owned in the last ten years practically sits in our back yard..the only ones NOT here lol are the ones that broke down too far away from home to manage to drag back....
Now when *I* look at our yard....I see all of this broken down garbage that is a horrible eye sore...When spouse looks at it ...he sees value.
I cannot get rid of the garbage because...hey...the torn up yellow utility van with the shattered window and broken grill has a good engine and tranny....the dumptruck might be usefull one day (it hasn`t been for ten years now) the beat up pontiac only needs motor mounts ...it has good ac...the vw only needs tires...the broken down rv makes a great paint/tool storage area...the old boat is fixable (though has not been in the water since the weekend before my 16 yo wa born)...anyway ...you get the idea....my yard is SO full of old junk ... that spouse views as valuable...
on the reverse side of the coin...I have a bazillion dogs n horses that I have rescued through the years...I see the loving souls..enjoy the gratefull nickers...enjoy the beauty of a horse peacefull grazing....what does HE see??? The massive amount of poop generated...the flies drawn...the grass eaten down...the money sunk in the black hole of vet bills feed etc..lol
So value is relative...what I see as trash has value to mate....what I value the mate sees as expensive waste.....lol so value is all in the eye of the beholder... as long as we *see* value in twi/pfal nobody could convince us otherwise...when one enjoys better ...they can look at the junk and see it for what it is.
quote:What is it that made us (wayfers) think that PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH (as in Jesus Christ) IN EXISTENCE IN THE WORLD?
Nothing from twi. If anyone thought that, they weren't using their head ...
VPW said in his PFAL books that he learned from men of God, scattered across the continent. Obviously, truth exists outside of twi, that's where twi got it from.
Thank God twi got it right about salvation too. Had I believed the stuff from my RC background, I couldn't move onto another Christian group without eternal damnation awaiting my soul.
quote:I intend to hold on to the few precious pieces that have retained their value and when spouses back is turned...lol haul the rest of the worn out *furniture* to the burn pile with the rest of the garbage..
This sounds something like that famous phrase "Eat the fish, and spit out the bones." Only question is, what is fish, and what is bone? I guess that's the individual's decision to work out in their own life.
All twi said is they were the only ones who stood for truth, that vpw was the only one who listened to God and that PFAL was the ONLY place to get God's truth in one condensed package.
Number 1 ... Most of the *quality* pieces ...the ones worth keeping, are the antiques that have been a part of my family years before I was ever married....
Number 2 ... I don`t like fish...the bones can get stuck and choke you even when using the utmost care while eating....I`d rather eat pizza.
After thinking about it...as much as I like pizza, I wouldn`t be averse to a fresh caught little brookie gutted and scewered immediatly upon leaving the stream over a litlle campfire...mmmmMMMMmmmm
Only problem is ..after enjoying fresh caught brook trout ....all other fish especially store bought tastes old and nasty....
While most folks can consume just any old fish and be content because that is all they have had the oportunity to enjoy.......anyone who has enjoyed fresh wholesom trout tends to find the frozen processed fish in the supermarket as stale and unplatable.
What happens if you are told and you believe that the only fish to be eaten is in the walmart freezer section ...or a few days old at a fish market...or if fresh caught even a different han trout?
Well...I suppose that you would think that your fish was jeest FINE!
Excellent point. I guess we "truly made it our own" after all. :D-->
And rascal, your furniture analogy is perfect, and really makes the point.
It makes me sad that so many I know still keep God in the PFAL box. I think of the analogy of the bird who has lived in his cage so long, that even when the door is opened, he won't venture out, because his cage is so familiar and all he knows. sigh....
Yeah ex.. Think about it...Have you ever SEEN the cage of a neglected bird??? It is very sad ...It smells because of all of the poop and spoile food in the bottom ... Their food bowl LOOKS full....but consists nothing but empty seed husks... though there appears to be sustenance ....there is nothing left of nutritional value...their water bowl is fouled...they are miserable and starving....but because there was at one time food and water supplied they hopefully await for another spoiled morsal to be flung sporadically to them....the poor birds are anemic and bedraggled ... forlornly wondering why their lot is so difficult...afraid to leave because even though they WATCH the other little birds enjoying their freedome...they have been told that there are *cats* outside of their cage....meanwhile the rest of the birds are outside the open enjoying a never ending feast in the sunshine..
Psssst little birds.....It`s ok...the owner got rid of the *cat* ;-)
As a matter of fact, White Dove, I know the last class I "sat through" was in your hometown, I just can't remember when it was. I do remember that you ran the last couple of classes, didn't you? I'm thinking it was probably in 85 or so, maybe earlier that J and I ran one?
"" quote:"What is it that made us (wayfers) think that PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH (as in Jesus Christ) IN EXISTENCE IN THE WORLD?"
Nothing from twi. If anyone thought that, they weren't using their head ...
VPW said in his PFAL books that he learned from men of God, scattered across the continent. Obviously, truth exists outside of twi, that's where twi got it from.""
NOTHING from twit, OM???? cmon, you have certainly got to have one of the most selective memories I have ever seen...
THE GawdAmighty TRUTH, not known since da foist CENT-cha-reeee!!! What log were u sleepn' under during your stay in twit-ville???
You are ignoring the CONSTANT bleeeting over the years about the superiority of twit's VAST Knowledge of da Verd!!! cmon, man---you never saw that ...., really????
As a matter of fact, White Dove, I know the last class I "sat through" was in your hometown, I just can't remember when it was. I do remember that you ran the last couple of classes, didn't you? I'm thinking it was probably in 85 or so, maybe earlier that J and I ran one?
I think that would be about right 84-85 we did one at our house in 84 and I think you also did one at the Oakley house but I'm not sure been too long ago. I don't think we did any more here after that. I know I didn't run any, the last class that I was supposed to do was CFF but after the response to Craig's Corps letter they decided that I was not qualified to do that. Those may have been the last to run at least up unto 88 when we left.
It also dawns on me, ex, that perhaps your exway friend counts telling you to take the Class again as witnessing, and feels that she did her duty by saying the magic words "PFAL" to you. Does she belong to a splinter group? Do they pressure people to witness?
I'm still getting "witnessed" to by my innie ex, so yeah, I understand tedious. I guess we're only "believers" if we're the right brand of believers.
quote:You are ignoring the CONSTANT bleeeting over the years about the superiority of twit's VAST Knowledge of da Verd!!! cmon, man---you never saw that ...., really????
Alfakat, yes, I thought we were rightly dividing the word and others mostly were not; and I thought we were teaching the truth, more so than anyone else. That's vastly different than saying PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH in the world. I never believed that. Where other groups were teaching truth, I was glad. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses taught the correct teaching on hell and the dead not being alive. They taught that Jesus is God's son. I believe they are teaching truth there. Other Christian groups are teaching salvation by grace, same deal. Does twi have the ONLY truth in these categories? No.
"He'll teach me the word like it hadn't been known since the first century" doesn't mean that nobody else had truth, and if you thought that, I think you were mistaken. We still had brains to see others having truth in various teachings, you didn't see that?
If you believed that PFAL contained the ONLY TRUTH in the world, then you must have believed that everyone else was wrong on every point. Well I think that's mistaken and not representative of what twi was teaching back in those days. Other folks were teaching truth and how could Wierwille deny that? He didn't.
From the class (approx. quote): "when and where we rightly divide the Word, we have truth; when and where we wrongly divide the Word, we have error."
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skyrider
ex10,
Seems like this group of pfal waybrainers refuse to acknowledge the truth in Acts 17:11 ..
"...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
But then again...it's not all that uncommon for pfal waybrainers to disregard the scriptures for a pittance of pitiful platitudes.
-->
skyrider
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shazdancer
Dear ex10,
How many times is it necessary to sit through the thing to get it? I haven't been through a PFAL class in over 20 years now, but I think I still remember the major concepts and minor points. Show me a scripture, and I can probably tell you how VPW "handled" it.
I think there's a point at which sitting through the thing only yields new trivia, like how many times VP says "that's riiight" in session 3. (I have no idea!) I also think there's a point at which it becomes idolatry.
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
Amen Ex! Gosh it has been 19 years for me as well.... The only thing I can figure is that we were TOLD that pfal was the end all be all holy grail of christianity....and we believed it.
We were too young and naieve to have had enough life experiences to realise that there were other very legitimate christian groups...it never occured to us to doubt what we were told.
Guest spouse and I have been going round and round about something lately that reminds me of how we were with pfal....see
we have this old ratty second hand den furniture....we have had it for years....it is stained and ratty from all of the kids dirty feet spilled juice....etc.
Now granted it has served our purpose for many years...each piece has been entirely functional....but being second hand from different sources...nothing matches or fits very well in OUR den... ....and granted... when we got the pieces ....we were glad to have them.......and because we didn`t have any OTHER furniture...and though tired and second hand...they seemed adequate ....
The problem is...now spouse does not want to get rid of the garbage that he is accustomed to ....you have to throw out the old living room furniture BEFORE you have room for the newer better higher quality living room suit...Now, we can keep a few of the pieces of furniture that have withstood the ravages of time and childrens abuse that remain functional and have value...but you know...you still have to get rid of the garbage in order to enjoy better furniture.
My father has offered us a complete living room suit...that looks new....it will look lovely in the den....but guess what?
My husband won`t let me throw away the OLD furniture to make a spot for the new...(s`funny he is that wy about a half dozen vehicles sitting in the yard not running as well)
now mind you he is able to ignore the filth or the back cushion of one recliner was chewed away by the dog and the reclining handle is broken on the other....One recliner is broken and sits sideways...I can see that it is garbage... I am embarrassed to have anyone walk into my home because THEY can see that though it gets the job done.....it is garbage...but in spite of what the rest of us can all see.... it STILL has value to Mark...he worked for it he paid for it ..he hauled it home....and besides that the kids would just destroy the new furniture anyway....
So we sit on the same old drap dilapidated (though marginally) functional mis matched furniture. It is sad because there is so much better available to enjoy....Spouse will never enjoy the new quality furniture that is available for us while he insists on keeping the garbage the den....
That is how I feel about our spirituality and at times unreasonable attatchment to pfal/twi teachings and life style.
It has GOT to be good because we invested such an enormous amount....we ignore the rips and stains ...the faint aroma of cat urin that one chair exudes.....and convince ourselves that this is the only stuff worth having anyway ..thus completely ignoring the fact that there is an entire world of lovely *furniture* out there for us to enjoy with a minimal of effort...many different styles to suit ones individual tastes as well.
I intend to hold on to the few precious pieces that have retained their value and when spouses back is turned...lol haul the rest of the worn out *furniture* to the burn pile with the rest of the garbage..
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rascal
Can you stand another analogy? (I guess that I am venting TOO lol)
The afore mentioned vehicles...every vehicle we have ever owned in the last ten years practically sits in our back yard..the only ones NOT here lol are the ones that broke down too far away from home to manage to drag back....
Now when *I* look at our yard....I see all of this broken down garbage that is a horrible eye sore...When spouse looks at it ...he sees value.
I cannot get rid of the garbage because...hey...the torn up yellow utility van with the shattered window and broken grill has a good engine and tranny....the dumptruck might be usefull one day (it hasn`t been for ten years now) the beat up pontiac only needs motor mounts ...it has good ac...the vw only needs tires...the broken down rv makes a great paint/tool storage area...the old boat is fixable (though has not been in the water since the weekend before my 16 yo wa born)...anyway ...you get the idea....my yard is SO full of old junk ... that spouse views as valuable...
on the reverse side of the coin...I have a bazillion dogs n horses that I have rescued through the years...I see the loving souls..enjoy the gratefull nickers...enjoy the beauty of a horse peacefull grazing....what does HE see??? The massive amount of poop generated...the flies drawn...the grass eaten down...the money sunk in the black hole of vet bills feed etc..lol
So value is relative...what I see as trash has value to mate....what I value the mate sees as expensive waste.....lol so value is all in the eye of the beholder... as long as we *see* value in twi/pfal nobody could convince us otherwise...when one enjoys better ...they can look at the junk and see it for what it is.
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oldiesman
VPW said in his PFAL books that he learned from men of God, scattered across the continent. Obviously, truth exists outside of twi, that's where twi got it from.
Thank God twi got it right about salvation too. Had I believed the stuff from my RC background, I couldn't move onto another Christian group without eternal damnation awaiting my soul.
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oldiesman
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def59
OM
You really weren't paying attention were you?
All twi said is they were the only ones who stood for truth, that vpw was the only one who listened to God and that PFAL was the ONLY place to get God's truth in one condensed package.
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rascal
Two points oldies...
Number 1 ... Most of the *quality* pieces ...the ones worth keeping, are the antiques that have been a part of my family years before I was ever married....
Number 2 ... I don`t like fish...the bones can get stuck and choke you even when using the utmost care while eating....I`d rather eat pizza.
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WordWolf
Interesting how possibly the only unambiguous reference to
vpw learning anything on the holy spirit field in
"Receiving The Holy Spirit Today"
was one anonymous mention of a man of God who taught him
some things,
the emphasis was on vpw's search, not the other guy actually
knowing stuff,
AND IT WAS DELETED FROM ALL SUCCEEDING EDITIONS.
The rest of the book, he was pretty specific.
He used his Bible as his "handbook" and his "textbook".
Period.
Been a while since you've read the Preface, I take it.
The only mention of others in the Preface-
other than the people who taught him and were "sincere"
(translation in twispeak: "IN ERROR AND TOO STUPID TO KNOW
IT"), was those people who proofread and edited.
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rascal
After thinking about it...as much as I like pizza, I wouldn`t be averse to a fresh caught little brookie gutted and scewered immediatly upon leaving the stream over a litlle campfire...mmmmMMMMmmmm
Only problem is ..after enjoying fresh caught brook trout ....all other fish especially store bought tastes old and nasty....
While most folks can consume just any old fish and be content because that is all they have had the oportunity to enjoy.......anyone who has enjoyed fresh wholesom trout tends to find the frozen processed fish in the supermarket as stale and unplatable.
What happens if you are told and you believe that the only fish to be eaten is in the walmart freezer section ...or a few days old at a fish market...or if fresh caught even a different han trout?
Well...I suppose that you would think that your fish was jeest FINE!
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ex10
shaz,
Excellent point. I guess we "truly made it our own" after all.
:D-->
And rascal, your furniture analogy is perfect, and really makes the point.
It makes me sad that so many I know still keep God in the PFAL box. I think of the analogy of the bird who has lived in his cage so long, that even when the door is opened, he won't venture out, because his cage is so familiar and all he knows. sigh....
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Steve!
Well, we'll just let om enjoy his 3-day old carp, not bought at Walmart but at Kmart, definitely Kmart.
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oldiesman
Steve, I hate Kmart.
Aww, don't be sad, be happy. Because God even helps us folks who aren't as spiritually enlightened as yourself. ...Link to comment
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WhiteDove
Quote:What is it that made us (wayfers) think that PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH (as in Jesus Christ) IN EXISTENCE IN THE WORLD?
Ex 10
I think it definitely was the PFAL Jingle it haunts my brain.
PFAL has something just for you
It teaches you keys to unlock those doors
And how to walk right through
So if you want to have a powerful life
Thats more than Abundant too
Then P F A L is the class for you.
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rascal
Yeah ex.. Think about it...Have you ever SEEN the cage of a neglected bird??? It is very sad ...It smells because of all of the poop and spoile food in the bottom ... Their food bowl LOOKS full....but consists nothing but empty seed husks... though there appears to be sustenance ....there is nothing left of nutritional value...their water bowl is fouled...they are miserable and starving....but because there was at one time food and water supplied they hopefully await for another spoiled morsal to be flung sporadically to them....the poor birds are anemic and bedraggled ... forlornly wondering why their lot is so difficult...afraid to leave because even though they WATCH the other little birds enjoying their freedome...they have been told that there are *cats* outside of their cage....meanwhile the rest of the birds are outside the open enjoying a never ending feast in the sunshine..
Psssst little birds.....It`s ok...the owner got rid of the *cat* ;-)
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ex10
HA! White Dove
:)-->
OM,
Nice to see you're still your charming self.
;)-->
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shazdancer
Aw, Dovey, now you've done it! I'll probably be stuck with that tune in my head all day...
Shaz
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ex10
As a matter of fact, White Dove, I know the last class I "sat through" was in your hometown, I just can't remember when it was. I do remember that you ran the last couple of classes, didn't you? I'm thinking it was probably in 85 or so, maybe earlier that J and I ran one?
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oldiesman
It's been playing in my head all afternoon ...
Certain in the midst of uncertainty ... yeah yeah yeah ....
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alfakat
thus spake OM-a-thusra:
"" quote:"What is it that made us (wayfers) think that PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH (as in Jesus Christ) IN EXISTENCE IN THE WORLD?"
Nothing from twi. If anyone thought that, they weren't using their head ...
VPW said in his PFAL books that he learned from men of God, scattered across the continent. Obviously, truth exists outside of twi, that's where twi got it from.""
NOTHING from twit, OM???? cmon, you have certainly got to have one of the most selective memories I have ever seen...
THE GawdAmighty TRUTH, not known since da foist CENT-cha-reeee!!! What log were u sleepn' under during your stay in twit-ville???
You are ignoring the CONSTANT bleeeting over the years about the superiority of twit's VAST Knowledge of da Verd!!! cmon, man---you never saw that ...., really????
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WhiteDove
I think that would be about right 84-85 we did one at our house in 84 and I think you also did one at the Oakley house but I'm not sure been too long ago. I don't think we did any more here after that. I know I didn't run any, the last class that I was supposed to do was CFF but after the response to Craig's Corps letter they decided that I was not qualified to do that. Those may have been the last to run at least up unto 88 when we left.
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ex10
Thanks white dove.
:)-->
Whatever, the point is, somehow me and most of my family and many friends have somehow managed to keep our faith; being PFAL-free for decades.
Go figure...
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shazdancer
It also dawns on me, ex, that perhaps your exway friend counts telling you to take the Class again as witnessing, and feels that she did her duty by saying the magic words "PFAL" to you. Does she belong to a splinter group? Do they pressure people to witness?
I'm still getting "witnessed" to by my innie ex, so yeah, I understand tedious. I guess we're only "believers" if we're the right brand of believers.
**Sigh**
Shaz
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oldiesman
"He'll teach me the word like it hadn't been known since the first century" doesn't mean that nobody else had truth, and if you thought that, I think you were mistaken. We still had brains to see others having truth in various teachings, you didn't see that?
If you believed that PFAL contained the ONLY TRUTH in the world, then you must have believed that everyone else was wrong on every point. Well I think that's mistaken and not representative of what twi was teaching back in those days. Other folks were teaching truth and how could Wierwille deny that? He didn't.
From the class (approx. quote): "when and where we rightly divide the Word, we have truth; when and where we wrongly divide the Word, we have error."
Anyone, even non-twi folks, can and did do that.
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