Because I accept and love Jesus as the Christ

[Dot Matrix]

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"Questioning" is one thing "WHY I REJECT CHRIST" is another. (The thread that had that as its Title is what I am speaking of)

It is a declaration!

So, I am making a declaration.

I do not know how to explain what I am feeling and I am hoping that my being able to articulate it here.

In life, there has been one unshakable constant with me and that has been God. And believe me I, like you, had many reasons to stop believing. TWI being just one of those faith shaking occurrences.

But on this journey there are times when we reach a crossroads where one either continues to believe or stops and goes the other way. I believe I have reached those crossroads where I either stand up and am a Christian or I fail as a friend to Jesus Christ.

In the past, one of those occasions for me, was I went to work at a new job about 2 years ago. The woman who had been there for 10 years was a practicing witch and she told me that, “if you cross me you will be sorry. People that cross me wind up in accidents and worse. I am a powerful witch”

I told her, “I am not afraid of you. I am a Christian and my GOD is more powerful that yours. Anything you try to do to me will come to naught or happen to you instead.”

It was my first day and my senses demanded I let it go but the internal spirit demanded I stop it right here and right now.

I am at one of those crossroads again. God has done so many miracles for me this year: my hand getting healed on the lips of a prayer spoken by a man in Greece, my father’s recovery from 3 surgeries in 3 weeks has been such a gift from God that I remain thankful each day.

But when I saw the thread titled “Why I reject Christ” I was faced with another personal crossroads. It may not be your “crossroads” so my indignation may seem stupid, dramatic and uncalled for, but for me it is one of those times that if I do nothing it will affect my relationship with God. I will feel like a traitor and at the very least not a “good” friend to Jesus who has been “a friend to me”.

It is the "title" more than the following words posted that absolutely boils my blood and saddens me. But it is the "title" that exposes "true self".

It was due to that, I went back and read the posts written by Refiner. Many posts are compliments to certain posters winning their hearts and getting their endorsements...but to me there is flavor in it, a flavor which leads to "WHY I REJECT CHRIST"

To me, it seems very persuasive to people still on the fence deciding if they want to believe or want to just give it up.

Limping in here looking for one shred of God's love they have been greeted by the words "WHY I REJECT CHRIST"

Now, I know we have all sorts of different degrees of believing in God here. People who have stopped all together, some have gone back to traditional churches, some still avoid conventional churches and their only fellowship is this forum, etc.

The folks who have given up – I do not agree with them but I understand. This site has been about our trip through TWI and finding ourselves. Telling others what we now face, or what we now believe is all part of it. But now we have other cults coming in and posts a blaring “WHY I REJECT CHRIST”

I find it SO offensive I cannot even breathe. Why would a person come from another cult and post “WHY I REJECT CHRIST”. If he came here inviting us to a different church or cult we would have jumped all over him…. But the rejection of Christ thread is even supported by the few Christians I see -- after all it is not offensive it is America. This kills me.

I know many of you will say I am making too much of it. Let us embrace all x-cult members etc. And maybe that is the correct way for you to feel about it. But for me it is one of those crossroads where I am in need of making a decision. Stay and embrace things like “WHY I REJECT CHRIST” because this is America…. Or just say enough is enough. I will not sit back and support this or feign understanding.

I listen to Oakspear, Lindy and Mosh and I know they are here to find out the truths about TWI and contribute to the recovery. I am not happy that they no longer believe because it hurts me for them. It hurts me to think TWI pained them so badly that they do not even believe in God -- or no longer feel they know him personally (agnostic). But because they were TWI – they had a reason to be here and share their hearts. (I care for these people greatly dispite our different beliefs)

But if we are going to attract people from other cults and have to have “Why I reject CHRIST” as a thread...

I just cannot handle it.

IT will effect my “walk” with Jesus. It does bother me immensely. And I feel like a traitor. I cannot continue to go to God in prayer and look for answers in my life while visiting a site which has “WHY REJECT CHRIST” from a guy who isn’t even TWI.

I wish I could explain it better….

Once, while I worked at Taco Bell HQS. I had a good paying career going. One day my boss sneezed and I said, “God bless you.” He called me in his office and reamed me up and down to NEVER say that again. He said he did not believe in God and he was offended by my saying, “God bless you.” And it set us on a very bad relationship path. I just took it. The job was good and had a nice paycheck.

I always felt badly that I did not tell him, I respect your wishes but you cross the line when you begin to bash my God. But I didn’t. Ya know, the paycheck and all….

Well, that job came and went but my reaction to his outburst has bothered me for 12 years. I did not stand up for my beliefs or for a God who loved me. Even if it was just like I mentioned, “I respect your wishes but you cross the line when you begin to bash my God. So, please respect me enough to not refer to him as a nonexistent concept invented by man to learn how to live with themselves…”

Our crossroads come to us at different ways and at different times. You may not see it as such or may even think I am being anal. I only let you all know this as I am taking a break and do not know how long it will last. Because this is a crossroads for me.

What I have seen is people who did believe who constantly indulge the "Christ rejecters" become rejecters themselves. I am at the point that GS has helped me grow but now (like when it was time to leave TWI) I need to go. I am LOA. But if I involve myself with a group where "WHY I REJECT CHRIST" does not offend the majority of them -- then I am no longer in the right place.

BTW, I had written my response to Refiner and my sister called before I could explain myself better. Then, I thought the hell with it, I will just ignore this thread and deleted my post. It was on the board for about 4 to 8 minutes and caused such a raucous.

After deleting it, I just got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach like when VP was naked in the coach and instead of leaving the ministry I stayed. I hated the fact that I discovered VP was a fraud that day -- but instead of leaving -- I stayed. In a very real way, "I" began to live a fraudulant life that day.

For me, to see "Why I REJECT CHRIST" each time I logged in and say nothing about it made me a phoney. A fraud. Dirty. Willing to have Jesus heal me (my hand) but unwilling to defend him as the Christ. I can pray to him for my father's health and yet sit and stare at "WHY I REJECT CHRIST" without a peep from me -- This was an event that made me have to face I either believe and and stand for Christ or I am nothing but a "frightened to stand up for my beliefs" --FRAUD.

A fraud. I talk big when I want Jesus to help me but I am no where to be found when he needed me. I will not return his friendship with my disloyal, quiet, ignoring-of-the-offense it is to me.

So, I stay and argue or I walk away. I was trying to do the first but I could not explain the "soul crushing" that thread title did to me, so I am leaving.

Just like that day in the coach. I told VPW "NO" but I should have left... I thought, "but I will miss my friends.... If I just ignore it -- things will be okay... It will get better.... I can fix it..." So, I stayed. And a darkness entered my heart and brain and the consessions I made killed me.

GS has helped me get my footing and I am SO thankful for all of you here (the past what 5 years?) but it will not be at the expense of my true-self. I will not do that again, like I did that day on the coach. I just can't. It IS that big of a deal to me.

So, it is America and he can post and I can leave.

Today may not be your day of crossroads. This incident may seem small to you. It is okay. I am not trying to rally people to do what I do. It is a personal thing, a personal day in the battle, where if I want to have God in my life -- today is a day that "I" have to speak up.

And I have to recognize I need a break from here. I do not know if I will be back except to the prayer threads.

Thanks to so many of you for your love and support, for your prayers with me at times I needed "the family of God"

I am so sorry we were hurt in that God-awful TWI, but as I shared on ala's thread I believe God was real and we experienced two ministries. We tasted the real thing. The posion came later from VPW.

Special love to many of you I have given my e-mail. And a special thanks to Kit Sober who has been a torch of light to so many people who looked for light in the dark abyss in which they found themselves. She has been a pillar of love and faith.

May God bless all of you. I pray that God heal you and you feel his love again.

Dot

P.S. Rottie take good care of Nico. And Thank you Paw.

I was asked to return and include this, so I have.

this is what I meant by my hand miracle.

My Miracle

I became a dog groomer, after being laid off from my paralegal position, in an effort to have a vocation where I could hang a shingle and float my own boat. One day, I saw two foreign bodies, which turned out to be dog hairs that had flown into my hand with the high velocity of the dog clippers.

I was able to remove the dog hairs with tweezers and thought that would be the end of it. I remember doing an extremely filthy dog who had twigs and gum stuck in his horrific mats. Lord knows what other rubble was in there! (and there was more)

My hand blew up to the size of an oven-mitt and an abscess sprung up between my ring and middle finger. The infection left with antibiotics but returned when I finished the prescription. This went on EIGHT times. I have been to SIX Doctors and nobody diagnosed me. An alert dermatologist went in through the area of the abscess and saw a small piece of glass. She was afraid to remove it, as she was concerned about the nerves in my hand so she sent me to a specialist. After x-rays and MRI’s nothing was showing up so the specialist refused to go into my hand to remove the glass, he said it was not there. I begged him to call the dermatologist, but he said he had no reason to call.

He put my swelling hand into a cast and sent me home. He thought it would prevent me from banging it and causing more trauma. Instead, my hand continued to swell inside the cast. I called his office and they told me to go to the emergency room and have it removed, however, I could not validate if my insurance would cover the cost, so I used a dremmel and removed it myself.

The abscess returned along with red inflamed tissue around the area. I went to the pharmacist and pathetically asked her, “Will you help me?” She had me put draw out salve on the point of entry and it did draw out the glass. However, my hand continued to swell resembling a catcher’s mitt and a new abscess would appear over and over. It would go down from the anti biotics then back up a couple days after I finished the drugs.

I could not bend my fingers, I could not work for weeks and I was frightened. The inability to work caused us great financial problems, as I am a contractor with no “sick pay” therefore, we had to absorb the lack of a paychecks.

This, along with my husband’s problem almost pushed us onto the street. I just kept remembering, “I was young and now I am old but I have never seen his seed forsaken or begging bread. I went to different Doctors, the emergency room; all to no avail. They would give me antibiotics and as I finished them the infection, immobility, swelling and abscess returned. Over several (about 6-9) months -- EIGHT TIMES.

I met a fellow groomer on-line who was instrumental in my diagnoses. She posted what had happened to her, which was remarkably similar to my plight. I contacted my Doctors. I told them I thought I had a rare condition called “Barber hand” and there was still a hair stuck inside my hand. The specialist and the dermatologist phoned me to agree with my self-diagnoses, that I did have Barber hand.

However, the specialist refused to go into my hand because the hair did not show up on any tests. Even though the radiologist said a hair WOULD NOT SHOW UP, the specialist insisted it would.

So, there I was. I knew I had an additional dog hair stuck down in my hand but nobody would help me and my hand was not functioning.

I went back to the Dermatologist who again cut into my hand and went deeper this time, as the hand surgeon would not. So, the Dermatologist went in as deep as she dared but did not find a hair.

As I said the condition is called “Barber Hand” it is rare but in the medical books and I was at a loss until God intervened.

One day, I am on the computer in a forum talking about miracles, prayer and BG Leonard’s classes. I e-mailed the man and ask him to pray for me. In his response he asked for my phone number.

This total stranger calls me, on his dime, and we talk about God’s goodness for sometime. Then, he prays for me. I had only revealed to this gentleman that I had a hand infection. A HAND INFECTION.

As he prayed he said, “I see something in your hand that looks like a fish hook.” He got quiet. “But it is not a hook, it is a ummmmm a hair. It is a hair stuck in your hand. Your hand is swelling up because it is trying to flood the area and push the hair out. But the hair is bent, barbed and stuck. It is between your ring finger and middle finger and way down in the back of your hand. Lord God we ask for your healing power in the name of your wonderful son Jesus...”

A cozy tepid activity touched my hand as he prayed for the hair to dislodge and move up out of my hand.

He said, “Your hand will swell again tonight, but do not fear it will move the hair up.”

Guess where this guy was calling me from? Thessalonica Greece. This stranger called me and prayed for my hand and as he stated it swelled that evening pushing out the hair and it never swelled again. I was healed! God’s love is huge and I praise his holy name!

Edited July 12, 2004 by Dot Matrix

[houseisarockin]

Last night I mentioned my holding back when offended here, stating my thankfulness for the most part when done. But this morning after reading your heart post I have to speak more.

I can not prove with tangle touch for one to see the existence of God in my life. And that in itself would support those who feel He does not exist. Yet I know if I could prove it that also would be attributed to some other source like fate, the stars were in alignment or the like.

Stated recently by one here they lost no sleep over not trying to convince people that God is real.

TWI taught me to not fully share outside the household and at first that was such bondage for me. Here I found ones that understood that thinking so it was easier. Today I try to learn from all things, but like you have found myself feeling like a traitor inside and I still don't understand that fully. Work in process.

Attributing blame to God is probably my thinnest skin issue on GS. One other is a mighty close second but that one shall hold to myself for the time being.

If a man who puts one pants leg on at a time is capable of removing my belief in God or His goodness then the belief was not rooted to start. And I have no doubt that will offend some here. But like the one that said they lost no sleep for not trying to convince people that God is real, I shall lose none for my opinion stated either.

As for learning from Refiner, I still believe I can. But I have not let his beliefs move me from mine one iota.

Dot, I can not convey my thoughts regarding your heart, if I could be completely honest with you as to who I am and what we hold mutually it would make it easier but that is not available. I love your bravery and your conviction!!!!!

[The Girl From Oz]

-->

BTW Dottie, my mother was a God-fearing woman all her life, but it didn't stop her from dying of cancer when I was 11.

Also, I broke my arm 2 mths ago. It's healing quite well, but not due to anyone's prayers. It's taken alot of hard work and exercise to get it to where it is now. Are you suggesting that God could have healed it quicker for me?

If so, if he can heal broken bones, why did he let my mother die a painful death? Why did he leave 2 young women motherless?

[Refiner]

Ive altered the thread Title as it is so offensive to this person.

The only other thing I will say is that this is not AMERICA.

Nor is it a CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH.

It is the WORLD WIDE WEB.

[def59]

So Oz are you blaming God for your mom's death?

It's natural. Wrong, but natural.

Why are we surprised by death, everyone dies.

Why do we blame God when someone dies? And then we use that anger as justification for unbelief.

I am sorry you were in a screwed-up group just like we are, but don't let the demonic teachings of one group spoil the whole basket for you.

And Refiner, most of us who post here are in America, so we think of GS as America.

Remember, you don't know us, or our past, and you seem pre-occupied with learning error instead of truth.

Crack open an NIV sometime and see God's word from a different perspective.

Crack open a history book too and try to imagine speaking German if America hadn't saved the mother land.

[excathedra]

i have been friends with (((((dottie))))) for almost 30 years. we see things differently but i hope our love for each other remains the same.

[Bramble]

I am sorry for your turmoil, and hope your decision leads you to peace.

[excathedra]

.... love you dot

Edited July 1, 2004 by excathedra

[Oakspear]

With all due respect for free speech and all that, despite her posting this thread in the Doctrinal Forum Dot Matrix was not initiating a debate.

Although Dot and I mostly disagree on matters of faith, I respect and honor the depth and steadfastness that she has in her own beliefs.

This is not a matter for discussion, logical discourse or attempts to convince, it's Dot Matrix's heart.

Can we just let it be? We have a perfectly good thread for debate started by Refiner.

I'll miss you Dot Matrix, despite our differences.

[excathedra]

okay

[def59]

Agreed Oak

I will miss Dot, and I share her sentiments and guilt over not standing up.

God Bless You Dot.

[The Girl From Oz]

Def59,

Of course I'm not blaming God for the death of my mother. Just as I'm not praising him for the healing of my arm.

[Psalm 71 one]

Dot

I don't know if you will see this, I'm going to try a private topic to you, also. I know exactly what you mean by feeling like you were a traitor to your Savior. Me too. Some time ago I think it was Imbus, who posted in the About the Way Forum, "Who is Christ to you", and then she posted her belief about Him--in other words, her rejection of Him. I started to post then didn't, giving myself all sorts of reasons. . .(I'm not here often enough, etc) . But I've always felt badly since then that I didn't post my own heart-felt belief That Jesus is MY SAVIOR. That He paid my penalty.

Then I saw Refiner's Thread with that blatant title. I hesitated to read it, but then I finally did when it was only three pages long, and was sickened.

I shook my head at the people who Do believe in God and Jesus, that took Refiner's bait and even attempted to answer. No one will ever be able to expalin God to people who don't believe in Him. Because I agreed with them (the believers), I personally thought their points were excellent, but wasted. The very Bible they reject SAYS it is all foolishness to them. I cannot judge them (Atheist/Agnostic)for their belief--God does the calling, each individual accepts or rejects, And God will judge each individual--not my job. And throwing a life preserver to anyone who is a strong swimmer by their own power, is a waste of time.

I didn't feel I needed to post to that thread, but I did feel I ought to post my belief in Christ, maybe start a new thread--so as to show readers who come to GS that not all posters here reject Christ.

And I didn't do that. And it has bothered me since I read that partial thread. I totally understand your wanting to leave, Dot. I think about that myself, and skip several days in a row, but haven't been ready to leave completely. I have made many good friends here, and have definately had healing take place, it has certainly served a purpose. I would like to stay in touch with you-- I've loved your posts. I have an email I place in my profile, can ya add it to your list?

[dmiller]

((Dot))

Carry the banner high, and when you come to a "CROSS" road, take it! :)-->

I'm glad you aren't leaving the prayer room. Folks there have needs, and you have been VERY GIVING of your time, and prayers to them.

Thank you for continuing to do so.

There are no Atheists in the "foxholes".

God Bless You! :)-->

David

[def59]

Unfortunately, there are atheists in foxholes, dmiller. The Red Army was full of them and so is our Army infected with them. People so filled with the world's bile that human life mean's nothing anymore.

Sad as our nation turns 227, we are pulling away from the moral footings that made us great in the first place.

Many have made a point that we have lost the moral high ground in Iraq. I say we never had it the first place. We sacrificed our moral standing on the altar of convenience and choice years ago.

Thirty million severed.

Talk about a holocaust.

[WhiteDove]

Dot my friend

We have not always seen

eye to eye

But you are always

in my heart...

This one's for you my friend....

Because I Believe In You

They ask me how I feel

And if my love is real

And how I know I'll make it through.

And they, they look at me and frown,

They'd like to drive me from this town,

They don't want me around

'Cause I believe in you.

They show me to the door,

They say don't come back no more

'Cause I don't be like they'd like me to,

And I walk out on my own

A thousand miles from home

But I don't feel alone

'Cause I believe in you.

I believe in you even through the tears and the laughter,

I believe in you even though we be apart.

I believe in you even on the morning after.

Oh, when the dawn is nearing

Oh, when the night is disappearing

Oh, this feeling is still here in my heart.

Don't let me drift too far,

Keep me where you are

Where I will always be renewed.

And that which you've given me today

Is worth more than I could pay

And no matter what they say

I believe in you.

I believe in you when winter turn to summer,

I believe in you when white turn to black,

I believe in you even though I be outnumbered.

Oh, though the earth may shake me

Oh, though my friends forsake me

Oh, even that couldn't make me go back.

Don't let me change my heart,

Keep me set apart

From all the plans they do pursue.

And I, I don't mind the pain

Don't mind the driving rain

I know I will sustain

'Cause I believe in you.

B Dylan

[Oakspear]

Def, if you are implying that a member of our armed forces, who lays his life on the line, is an INFECTION because of his atheism, then I strongly disagree. If you are further implying that an atheist is "filled with human bile" simply by being atheistic, then you don't know what you are talking about.

I do understand your belief that Christianity is the moral high ground, by definition, while disagreeing with that belief.

[Rachel]

Let the wheat and the tares grow together...The tares will be burned at the Harvest of the world.

Please, dont let it hurt you. We all have the the choice to believe or not. Remember Joshua??

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Also, I set before good and evil this day, choose you whom you will serve. Unbelief is an evil heart...

Shake the dust off, and keep walkin' girl.

Rachel

[year2027]

God first

Hi Dot Matrix

You have made a statement of your feeling

You are standing tall for God and he is very blessed with your stand

But I hope you stay with us because with time some will change their views but they are hurt now and we can only give them time

Now truth of our feelings is the only help we can give them

Its up to them but change may take days, weeks, or even many many years

If it comes but all we can do is pray for them with love

I will pray for them and I will even pray for the fool you talk about at work the witch because she most need alot of help

with love Roy

Hi Houseisarockin

God bless with love Roy

Hi The Girl From Oz

My mother is dying of cancer now but I still pray for her and what helps the most knowing that if or when she dies God will get her back up again

Now my father has Parkerson and if he dies or gets better I know that I will see him at the return of Christ too

So God heal your arm He did it in the begining of time when he set up the body so it would heal itself

So you did not have the believing to have it heal overnight so it heal itself slow thanks to God's design of the human body

God bless your heart glad you are here sharing your heart

with love Roy

Hi Refiner

God bless your heart

Now yes this is America but its allso everypart of the world its planet earth

What it is the hearts of people some will like my words and some will like your words

You will feel like your in a war at times and at peace at times but that is just the flow of things here and other boards

But I am glad you are here

with love Roy

Hi Def59

God bless your heart

with love Roy

Hi Excatherdra

God bless your heart

With love Roy

Hi Bramble

God bless your heart

with love Roy

Hi Oakspear

God bless your heart

with love Roy

Hi Psalm 71 one

God bless your heart

with love Roy

Hi D Miller

God bless your heart

with love Roy

Hi White Dove

God bless your heart

with love Roy

Hi Rachel

God bless your heart

with love Roy

[The Girl From Oz]

No arm (wrist, actually) broken the way mine was, could heal overnight.

I believe there's a God but there's no way he would heal an arm overnight.

Guess those heathen Africans should start believing so they don't all die of starvation, eh?

[The Girl From Oz]

quote:

---

So you did not have the believing to have it heal overnight

---

That's a rather judgemental comment for a Christian to make, is it not?

[WordWolf]

Actually, it's more of a technical concept.

If you'd been subjected to pfal Session I or

the first 4 chapters of the Blue Book like the

rest of us, you'd know that vpw taught that the

volume of one's believing was critical to seeing

results. With big enough believing, one can see

instant miracles, with not-so-big believing, one

can see somewhat slower (but still very fast)

results.

Thus, a mega-believer could see their arm heal

within seconds to a minute, while a big

believer could see it heal overnite.

We were taught that WE were the critical element

in receiving things from God, and to relegate

God to a secondary role as a sort of

quartermaster or supply sergeant or requisitions

officer.

[def59]

Oak

Even you have to see that human life has been devalued in our nation. All those video games have warped the younger generation. That attitude will permeate into the army.

And the athiestic/humanistic philosopy can be summed up in this article:

An atheist official complains that the Bible’s view of humanity is immoral

By RICHARD N. OSTLING

AP Religion Writer

What’s up with atheism, agnosticism and humanism, movements that make a religion out of opposing religion, and often complain about media neglect?

One current theme is that the Bible’s view of humanity is self-centered and ultimately immoral. That was pursued in Free Inquiry, the magazine of the Council for Secular Humanism, by Bill Cooke, who directs its affiliate, the Center for Inquiry.

Cooke targeted the “anthropic conceit” asserted in the Bible from the creation accounts in Genesis onward. He complained that people mistakenly believe that “despite being one biped among millions on one planet among millions, the creator of this entire universe is interested in their welfare.”

Oh, a personal God, that is immoral.

He criticized sophisticated variants including the “anthropic principle” (the cosmos was fine-tuned to sustain intelligent life despite scientific proof of overwhelming odds against this) and “intelligent design” (evidence that the cosmos that exists couldn’t occur without guidance from some higher outside intelligence).

In Cooke’s belief (or unbelief) it’s like “Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy,” and high time everybody ditched such infantile ideas: “We don’t matter to the universe; there is no bearded nice guy, vital spark, first principle, cosmic law or anything else.”

More: The person-centered, biblical concept is “a sign of immaturity and arrogance” on our part. Words such as “I” no longer have any clear meaning because “there is no mind, soul or psyche.” Most important, “it isn’t true.”

Conclusion: All religions propagate “dangerous folly,” “stifling certainties” and “foolish fear-mongering.”

Atheism is not just the most accurate and coherent view, he maintained, but necessary “for moral reasons” because it fosters “cosmic modesty.”

For instance? Cooke finds religion especially alarming because its focus on the human species creates “rampant population growth.” (He must have missed those articles on plummeting birthrates crippling European economies.)

Humanists like Cooke belittle religion’s exalted view of humanity and individual humans at the same time that his movement champions “the need to respect the dignity and worth of all persons” and of each individual on the planet.

That moral absolute occurs in Humanifest Manifesto 2000, promoted in the same issue as Cooke’s essay.

Also, who counts as “human” and enjoys those rights? Not everybody, according to a third piece in the issue.

Barbara Smoker, former president of Britain’s National Secular Society, expressed frustration that people resist killing off severely defective newborns, what she calls a sort of “very late abortion.”

Her view contrasts with the Bible’s emphasis on each individual as a divine creation, for instance God’s words to Jeremiah: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.”

Smoker said most secular humanists desire legalized mercy-killing and assisted suicide for oldsters with incurable ills they find intolerable, and for the comatose (“post-persons,” another humanist calls them). She acknowledged that mercy-killing imposed upon newborn humans is different because it cannot be voluntary.

Nonetheless, it’s “immoral to preserve a baby’s life” when handicaps are such that observers think “chances of happiness are manifestly low,” she said. Death should be ordered “on behalf of” the child to be killed.

Smoker thinks that starving defective newborns to death by withholding nourishment is better than letting them live, but prefers “a quick lethal injection.”

Then again, maybe humanity, and thus humanism, are out of date altogether.

A package of articles in another issue of Free Inquiry proclaimed the rise of the “transhuman” or “posthumanist” outlook.

Austin Dacey, who directs the Center for Inquiry’s science program, wrote that secular humanism’s belief in human perfection through education inspired the new “transhumanism,” which seeks to “transcend” today’s human race through direct modification inspired by Darwinism, employing all biological and technological means.

Humanism was great “but its moment may have passed,” said Dacey.

———

On the Net:

Council for Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org

OK

So is atheism the moral high ground?

I see this and shudder and what will happen to the human race. Disposable people, transhuman

Science Fiction is coming true all right.

Trekkers, remember the Borg, as far-fetched as that seems, these humanists want to see it come to pass.

[Dot Matrix]

Someone, actually 17 people e-mailed me to respond

Edited July 10, 2004 by Dot Matrix

[Dot Matrix]

I will be deleting my posts as Refiner has posted them all over the JW site and has strangers bashing me.

God Bless all of you with whom I have shared my life. I love you.

And May Refiner find the love of God in his lifetime. And to those over there who do not know me, I wish you no harm I was living my heart at a place where I have been for 5 years.

The site was for XTWI or current TWI and friends or family. Refiner had no connection to be there and it appears his soul intention was to stir things up.

Especially as I find his thread called “I've done it Again”

Well, you did.

You stirred me from a quiet stand to a strong desire to stand up and be counted for Christ.

And while you sent messages to me that you changed the title and if only you could go back a week you would not have wanted to cause me pain—you then run to your site and call me names and laugh at my heart.

Again, I question your intentions. To me, you are like a political candidate saying what needs to be said to gain support and meaning very little of the good things.

I do question your intentions. That is not rare as Lollyp*** was questioned, a girl dating an innie was questioned and some even wondered if poor R*Y was Way KGB.

Have a nice fulfilled life visiting x-cults, you have nothing to do with, to fill the hole in your heart left by your rejection of Christ.

I will keep you in my prayers that you find his love in your life. Perhaps someday when you feel his love for you, you will post a thread called "Why I believe Jesus is the Christ"

Or at least live peacefully having joy in your heart.

http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/viewt...der=asc&start=0

Edited July 10, 2004 by Dot Matrix