You know, Tom and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder about a guy like El Presidente Ryan being a pitching coach(if that's his job title)...As a pitcher, he always struck me as a guy who looked like he was sitting in a lawn chair throwing 95 mph...Pitching looked so natural to him...I looked up his stats and it's unbelievable how few basehits he gave up and how many walks he gave up in relation to his innings pitched...A couple of years he walked more guys than the amount of hits he gave up...Of course, he also struck out a zillion batters...He was a one-of--a-kind----and you wonder how well he can communicate the nuances of pitching to pitchers who have run-of-the mill natural abilities....
To me thats a very good point, nobody can teach someone how to "sit in a lawn chair and throw 95"...Its not always the case but it seems more often than not that the more mediocre players can make the better coaches--they were the ones who had to study the nuances of the game to stretch their meagerer abilities and find an advantage.
Terry Francona was never a great ballplayer, the Sox pitching coach is John Farrell ( I couldnt tell you whatever he may have done as a player) I have heard a few interviews with him and the things that he can pickup pitch to pitch is on a whole different level than I have ever heard . . ..Although the Red Sox have some 'talent' the also understand the value of having excellent coaching.
I dont really following coaching staffs all that closely but someteams always seem to have sound pitching--The Blue Jays, The Twins, The Cardinals--I doubt its ALL just organizational philosophy and park effects --some of it has to be good coaching and development--Dave Duncan in StLou comes to min
Don't know exactly what capacity Ryan's working in...He was the type of pitcher who could get away with more bases on balls, since he was so difficult to hit and he struck out so many guys...I know the Cubbies have brought in guys like Billy Williams and Fergie Jenkins to work with young players...Billy Williams had the sweetest swing I ever saw...When they began using the centerfield camera during games in the 60's, I loved watching how Billiy's bat seemed to meet the camera dead-on---something you either had or you didn't...
One of the reasons I think the Cubs have been so successful this year is their defense...Piniella seems to push the right buttons to get his guys to hit---but he'll show more patience with a struggling hitter whose doing a great job defensively...When the Cubs acquired Jim Edmonds, he was mired in a terrible hitting slump, but he would take a few runs away from the other team by his great center field play...Piniella would just subtly tell the media "we need him to start hitting" and leave it at that...Right now, a lot of Cub fans want to crucify Kosuke Fukudome---he's really hitting terribly---but his defense keeps him in the lineup...
Another factor for the Cubs is Mark DeRosa...Six or seven hole hitter---not a lot of fanfare---but plays wherever he's told---Second base, third base, left field, right field---one of the highest batting averages with runners in scoring position...Won't make the all-star team but in my opinion, should win the baseball equivelant of the NBA's "6th man" award...Seems to know if he's up to bat whether to move the runner, drive in the run, get on base, or just go for broke...
And of course, it helps to have a little bit of good pitching..Right now, if the Cubs needed to win one more game to make the playoffs, I'd put my money on Ryan Dempster, their converted closer...
Simon, he's not the pitching coach he's El Presidente of Base-a-bol Operations... he just steps in and lends a hand (and a great deal of credibility) whenever he thinks it may help the youngsters... like the incident I cited with McCarthy, he was talking to him about leg kick and balance... one of the reasons that he looked like he could fire 95 mph fastballs from a lawn chair was his leg strength and kick (and a heck of a lot of natural ability)...
hey... it can't hurt... he did mention today on the radio, when asked if maybe he could get out there and maybe take a turn every 5 days or so, what he could throw... he said that last year in an exhibition in Japan he pitched to Bobby Valentine as a promo thing... didn't really train or anything, just warmed up and threw... they clocked him at 85! at 60 years old (then)
Today we got some really bad news (like we need any more)... Kinsler is on the DL and may have to have season ending surgery for a "sports" hernia... on the dull side (there is no bright side to losing your spark) we get to see Spider Arias make his MLB debut... so now we have 30 available from our 40 man...
oh... and don't forget mstar, Francona learned his managing/coaching skills HERE!
Simon, he's not the pitching coach he's El Presidente of Base-a-bol Operations... he just steps in and lends a hand (and a great deal of credibility) whenever he thinks it may help the youngsters... like the incident I cited with McCarthy, he was talking to him about leg kick and balance... one of the reasons that he looked like he could fire 95 mph fastballs from a lawn chair was his leg strength and kick (and a heck of a lot of natural ability)...
Yeah, that leg strength and kick came in handy when he beat the bejeezice out of Robin Ventura...
No I didnt know that Francona got his start in Texas, every once in a while he'll talk about Philly ( ...all the years I was there I thought my name was ..You Sukc!.
I know he was Tito's son--so he was walking around big league ballparks since he could walk----You pick up a few things that way.
Speaking of pitching.....and coaching........I just caught the tail end of the Brewers game, watching Sabathia move to 8-0...How long has he been in the NL? A month or so? Any outside chance he gets the NL CY if the Brewers win the div.?
The thing I was questioning watching him was that they had him throw a complete game when the Brewers were up 9-2. He had around 130 pitches. I dont know how many complete games he has with the Brewers but he leads the NL....in a month plus....
He ate through the AL last year too, then faded in the playoffs, presumably (Ithought anyway) because of his high inning total throughout the year last year. I could be wrong, but I thought that was unnecessary to push him to get the CG....Its not the 70's anymore.....I'll be watching come playoff time to see if these little things mean anything or not but his overall innings must be getting high up there
There was just a story about Sabbathia today, the old"hoss" I think they called him...There was some speculation that since the Brewers most likely won't have him around for next year, they're trying to squeeze every pitch they can out of him and get their money's worth...He might be enjoying facing lineups with 8 hitters and a pitcher...I like complete games---but I like to see them more in a 1-0 or 2-1 game...I think the starting pitcher is the most motivated guy on the team to win the particular game he starts, and if he still has some gas in the tank, I'd like to see more of them finish what they start in closer games instead of just thinking they did their job because they pitched 7 good innings...Geeze, you hardly see complete game shutouts, any more...One manager was bemoaning the fact that his pitcher was throwing a no-hitter and thus, couldn't pull him after seven innings---he had to leave him in there until he gave up a hit or the game was over...
Speaking of pitching.....and coaching........I just caught the tail end of the Brewers game, watching Sabathia move to 8-0...How long has he been in the NL? A month or so? Any outside chance he gets the NL CY if the Brewers win the div.?
The thing I was questioning watching him was that they had him throw a complete game when the Brewers were up 9-2. He had around 130 pitches. I dont know how many complete games he has with the Brewers but he leads the NL....in a month plus....
He ate through the AL last year too, then faded in the playoffs, presumably (Ithought anyway) because of his high inning total throughout the year last year. I could be wrong, but I thought that was unnecessary to push him to get the CG....Its not the 70's anymore.....I'll be watching come playoff time to see if these little things mean anything or not but his overall innings must be getting high up there
No I didnt know that Francona got his start in Texas, every once in a while he'll talk about Philly ( ...all the years I was there I thought my name was ..You Sukc!.
I know he was Tito's son--so he was walking around big league ballparks since he could walk----You pick up a few things that way.
I was only kidding... mostly... he was a bench coach for John Narron here in 2002 (they were keeping the seat warm for Buck).
Maybe there's something to the help El Presidente Ryan is giving to the lads...
From Newberg:
Brandon McCarthy is with the team and is expected to make his first big league appearance of the season on Saturday. In his last two starts for AAA Oklahoma -- following a session in Arlington with Nolan Ryan and new pitching coach Andy Hawkins -- the 25-year-old (who we shouldn't forget is younger than Doug Mathis, Brandon Boggs, and Travis Metcalf, and just a few months older than Taylor Teagarden) threw 13 scoreless innings, scattering four hits (all singles) and two walks while striking out 11 and throwing 68 percent of his pitches for strikes.
I think the starting pitcher is the most motivated guy on the team to win the particular game he starts, and if he still has some gas in the tank, I'd like to see more of them finish what they start in closer games instead of just thinking they did their job because they pitched 7 good innings...Geeze, you hardly see complete game shutouts, any more...
Simon, you're showing your age...but not as much as I do sometimes. "Back in the old days..." I could watch games such as when Tom Cheney struck out 21 batters in 16 innings for the Senators (yeah, those Senators again, !#%@*%@! that Bob Short), or further back in my Dodger days (The Sherry brothers, Johnny Podres, then in later years Don and Sandy...)
Simon, you're showing your age...but not as much as I do sometimes. "Back in the old days..." I could watch games such as when Tom Cheney struck out 21 batters in 16 innings for the Senators (yeah, those Senators again, !#%@*%@! that Bob Short), or further back in my Dodger days (The Sherry brothers, Johnny Podres, then in later years Don and Sandy...)
and Koufax lasted how long? until he was 30?
I loved those long games and complete games, but I have to wonder how long someone like Koufax would have lasted if he wasnt pitching way over 300 innings every year with an arm injury. Its not unheard of for pitchers to pitch into their 40's now (Clemens, Johnson, Maddux).
Im not fully enamored the way pitchers are used now with all sorts of specialists that fill a particular and narrow role.
I.E.-The closer who ONLY comes in in the ninth with a 3 run or less lead--I liked the old firemen (more or less the equivelent of todays closer) who came in whenever the going got hot and shut things down for the final 2-3-or 4 innings if necessary--Guys like Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage---none of this left right, left right switch pitchers 5 times nonsense--just one guy -*bang* -lights out
but it is what it is until someone figures out something else --this is the way its going to be
Yeah, and what are you, some spring chicken, Lifted?...Don't try and deny you're not getting inundated with mail containing "special offers" from the AARP...God, Washington must have had less pitching than Texas does now...Leave you're starter in there for 16 innings?...I think managers guaged how long a pitcher stayed in the game with how well they were pitching in the game...
and Koufax lasted how long? until he was 30?
I loved those long games and complete games, but I have to wonder how long someone like Koufax would have lasted if he wasnt pitching way over 300 innings every year with an arm injury. Its not unheard of for pitchers to pitch into their 40's now (Clemens, Johnson, Maddux).
Im not fully enamored the way pitchers are used now with all sorts of specialists that fill a particular and narrow role.
I.E.-The closer who ONLY comes in in the ninth with a 3 run or less lead--I liked the old firemen (more or less the equivelent of todays closer) who came in whenever the going got hot and shut things down for the final 2-3-or 4 innings if necessary--Guys like Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage---none of this left right, left right switch pitchers 5 times nonsense--just one guy -*bang* -lights out
but it is what it is until someone figures out something else --this is the way its going to be
One thing I noticed in looking up old stats is that in the days of our youth, the four man rotation was not necessarily the norm for most teams...Bob Gibson never started more than 36 games in one season---usually it was 34-35, meaning he was getting four days rest between starts, as in a five-man rotation...In 68-69 combined, for instance, he started 69 games, 56 were complete games, with a total of 618.2 innings pitched, or 2.1 innings less than averaging a full 9 innings per start...While remembering fondly the old "Spahn and Sain and two days of rain", it seemed like most of the pitchers in those days worked on five days rest, with the exception of the real top guns, like Koufax, Drysdale, Marichal, Fergie, et. al. ...Unless, of course, you where a knuckler like Wilbur Wood or Phil Niekro----then you worked on two days rest and won 20 and lost 20...
Without steroids considered in the equation, it seems like more pitchers have joined the 300 club who were products of the five-man rotation, with Steve Carlton the last guy I can think of who pitched some years in the four -man rotation...I think what I miss are the old matchups of top guns--two battling pros dueling in a 0-0 game until only one man was left standing...The other day Greg Maddux and Jamie Moyer squared off in a "matchup for the aged"...forty something year old guys battling in a 1-0 game...It was great, but neither was around after the 7th---it came down to whose relief staff was better...
Speaking of Maddux, he just got traded to the Dodgers...Now, can somebody explain to me what the phrase "trading deadline" actually means?...
In 1987 Jack Morris at the Dome v Cardinals pitched the entire 10 innings to win the World Series for the Twins--they do have it in them!! That was a game, I was
glued to the set. I think he was 40 or near to.
Burnetts' performance against the Yanks last night--13 batters! I am not sure if Giambi had his mustache or not.
Dice-K AGAIN walks em and wins??? Eckersley said he wants to throw-up when he watched Dice-K pitch.
Pete Rose--great player--lousy manager.
Maddux had to waive his no trade clause.
It is the 2nd or 3rd time Maddux has been traded in the pennant race. This is his 2nd time with LA-he wants to go out in glory.
TRADING DEADLINE? I don't think it means much?
Shame about Kinsler--does he have enough AB to win the title IF Dustin doesn't run away with it?
It's a stance that buying FA pitching is not the answer... (it's in response to a majority of stRanger fans screaming for Hicks to bring someone in... something we've been screaming for years btw)...
I can see his points and they make sense... even he points out that if the stRangers had just taken a similar stance to the Twinkies (we will not trade young pitching) we'd have one of the best rotations in MLB right now... BUT... IMO, while I agree with him I also see no problem with going after a legitimate number one to be your ace... and that's something we've never done here. Sometimes it was our fault they wouldn't sign most times it was the stRangers being used to help drive up their price... so we end up signing folks like Millwood and Chan Ho who are really number three's to assume the ace role...
Anyway... enough of my blabbering... there's a lot of stuff to chew on... I think it takes a balance of both: You have to spend money (not just on pitching) AND build and groom talent...
Im a big advocate of developing pitchers from within as the way to go and keeping that top on the priority list but still think it is necessary from time to time to sign a number 1.
The problems seems to come about when pitchers are signed as 1's but are never really more than a 3 or 4 in the first place and they are thrust into arole that they dont have the makeup for----
The Red Sox have been lucky (plus they did a lot of homework) when they shelled out big $$ and signed Pedro Martinez, then traded for Curt Schilling, then won the Daisuke Matsuzaka race, which were all worth it in the long run.
The problem seems to come when they arent really committed to go for the best and trade for a Jeff Suppan, or a 40 year old David Wells and wrongly expect miracles to happen from a maybe .500 pitcher. The Carl Pavano signing by the Yankees was abig deal a few years ago but he has pitched around 3 games in the last 4 years.
Its a gamble and a high stakes one that doesn always work...(i.e. Barry Zito)
Last winter the big talk was Santana and teh squeeze was on for the Red Sox to give up Jon Lester --They held and now Lester is the real ace (although Beckett and DiceK are technically 1 &2).
Just from a business standpoint if you are going to spend $100,000,000, it makes sense to put it in your player development system where you could develop 4, 5, 8, or 10 players in their young years instead of spending it on one "superstar" who may or may not perform imo
Its a tough balance--like being at a casino---
There is no real clear cut answer--although some things work and some things dont.
Im beginning more and more to thinks its the people behind the scenes--the scouts, the minor league coaches, the stat nerds (glad we have Bill James), the development teams that make it all really work on the Big League Fields, if for some reason a team is forced into signing big free agents ( and they all do at one pont or another) its an indicator that something needs to take place and be changed in the minor league system as they should be able to produce big league talent at a regular rate if they are running properly.
It would be much more efficient/ cost effective to do it that way.
I dunno--thats my two cents anyway, but Ive always been a do it yourself kind of guy...
Oh and
Dice-K AGAIN walks em and wins??? Eckersley said he wants to throw-up when he watched Dice-K pitch.
Hard to believe he has the record he has this year...He always seems to get the bases loaded...then work himself out of a jam.
Jerry Remy suggested last week that they should just allow teams to come up and have the bases loaded already so we can watch him pitch. It seems to be the only time he does anything right..
I know what you mean... and it seems like (in the past) we've done a great job of developing pitching and then trading it away ao they can succeed in the bigs on other teams... OUR HOPE (all stRanger fans) is that that will now be a thing of the past... if you look in that blog there's quite a few ex-stRangers in that list of the top 40 ERAs... all of them pretty much given away except for Volquez and we're happy with the outcome of that one...
That being said, and the points in his blog being taken, I still feel we need to go out and get a legitimate number one... whether it's Sebathea or Sheets... they seem to have proven themselves and the only reason their teams wouldn't resign them is dollars... IIRC Zito was a Billy Bean move... maybe he saw something there, he's always been of the 'trade them a year early rather than a year late' mode... but Zito may bounce back...
we've had some real nice reports from the farm this year on pitchers... so we'll see...
I'm still of the opinion that the reason we can't land any real number ones is because nobody wants to come here and pitch in the heat for three months straight...
... Maybe all you guys could all wave palm fronds in the stands like pharaohs slaves to keep him cool--that is if you aint gonna go for the dome....
Heat might be part of it-- I think that once you get to X amount of dollars there has to be other perks to help people make a decision...I know with Schilling they presented all the baseball stuff and the money but he has written that the thing that put the RS over the top compared to other organizations was they had done the research on the details of his life and set up other things that they knew he was concerned with--- like excellent schools for his kids, and promise of big involvement in his charity work for Lou Gehrigs disease (which he is big into) and several other niceties beyond the playing field to make his stay here for him and his family very comfortable.
Think about it--if you were offered twice what you are making now to uproot to say Cleveland or Milwaukee would you? Maybe --maybe not---but if someone was throwing rose petals at my feet and really showing some care for me outside of hw I perform for them--it might be alittle easier to be persuaded
anyway-----Im distracted..
Im watching the Rays game on ESPN--they have one of the most exciting tams in baseball, are in first place, are playing the first place LAAAAAAAngels---yet there looks to be about 10,000 people in the stands--am I missing something?
I lived in Tampa Bay for 7 years and know 5 miles away from the stadium there are beautiful beaches, boating, water sports and 10 trillion women in bikini's--but 10,000 or so for a game between 2 first place teams? cmon --that just ain't right
Isn't that what the umpires are afraid of and why they are against the initiation of instant replay?
Speaking of Maddux, he just got traded to the Dodgers...Now, can somebody explain to me what the phrase "trading deadline" actually means?...
One can't really understand the term "trading deadline" without the addition of an '*' (asterisk).
With the asterisk representing the fine print, like "trading deadline before players would have to clear waivers." But there's probably more fine print to it than just that.
Its bizarre...
BUT
I'll take the W--ugly or not--its still a W
Speaking of which, tonight Jake Peavy faced off against Dan Haren. Both Cy Young winners and potential candidates this year (if not for Webb having nearly already run away with it). Conventional wisdom = a low scoring pitchers' duel.
Final score: AZ 8, SD 6. Haren gets the win, Peavy the loss. It was not the kind of game anyone expected... but I'll take it.
I don't know all the nuances of the trade deadline, but the story I read said the Dodgers gave up a couple of minor leaguers in their organization...So, what's to keep a team from picking up a Barry Linsecome, or a Josh Hamilton, for that matter, if there's a week left in the season and the teams those guys play for are out of the playoffs?...
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
858
673
1658
1014
Popular Days
Oct 24
38
Aug 12
34
Aug 18
31
Oct 22
29
Top Posters In This Topic
hiway29 858 posts
Rocky 673 posts
mstar1 1,658 posts
Tom Strange 1,014 posts
Popular Days
Oct 24 2007
38 posts
Aug 12 2008
34 posts
Aug 18 2008
31 posts
Oct 22 2006
29 posts
Popular Posts
kimberly
I missed the LLWS. The boy had baseball practice 4-7. Playing in a USSSA tournament this coming weekend. The new season has just started. Can ya'll believe we are in September of the ML baseball s
mstar1
Dont scare me like that Bolsh--the way you posted I wasnt sure if it was a done deal--I had to go check....Im on the fence whether to go for Halliday or not---I'd love to have him but I'd hate to give
hiway29
I love those fan trades where players you don't care about, plus a 'prospect', are offered up for a major player. Yeah, the Jays will jump at that deal.
Posted Images
Tom Strange
he's usually been pretty good in long relief... maybe it's because there's no pressure, but he does stop the bleeding more often than not...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
You know, Tom and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder about a guy like El Presidente Ryan being a pitching coach(if that's his job title)...As a pitcher, he always struck me as a guy who looked like he was sitting in a lawn chair throwing 95 mph...Pitching looked so natural to him...I looked up his stats and it's unbelievable how few basehits he gave up and how many walks he gave up in relation to his innings pitched...A couple of years he walked more guys than the amount of hits he gave up...Of course, he also struck out a zillion batters...He was a one-of--a-kind----and you wonder how well he can communicate the nuances of pitching to pitchers who have run-of-the mill natural abilities....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Kill the fatted calf! He has returned!
WB Simon says!
To me thats a very good point, nobody can teach someone how to "sit in a lawn chair and throw 95"...Its not always the case but it seems more often than not that the more mediocre players can make the better coaches--they were the ones who had to study the nuances of the game to stretch their meagerer abilities and find an advantage.
Terry Francona was never a great ballplayer, the Sox pitching coach is John Farrell ( I couldnt tell you whatever he may have done as a player) I have heard a few interviews with him and the things that he can pickup pitch to pitch is on a whole different level than I have ever heard . . ..Although the Red Sox have some 'talent' the also understand the value of having excellent coaching.
I dont really following coaching staffs all that closely but someteams always seem to have sound pitching--The Blue Jays, The Twins, The Cardinals--I doubt its ALL just organizational philosophy and park effects --some of it has to be good coaching and development--Dave Duncan in StLou comes to min
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
I'm always up for a fatted calf, mstar...
Don't know exactly what capacity Ryan's working in...He was the type of pitcher who could get away with more bases on balls, since he was so difficult to hit and he struck out so many guys...I know the Cubbies have brought in guys like Billy Williams and Fergie Jenkins to work with young players...Billy Williams had the sweetest swing I ever saw...When they began using the centerfield camera during games in the 60's, I loved watching how Billiy's bat seemed to meet the camera dead-on---something you either had or you didn't...
One of the reasons I think the Cubs have been so successful this year is their defense...Piniella seems to push the right buttons to get his guys to hit---but he'll show more patience with a struggling hitter whose doing a great job defensively...When the Cubs acquired Jim Edmonds, he was mired in a terrible hitting slump, but he would take a few runs away from the other team by his great center field play...Piniella would just subtly tell the media "we need him to start hitting" and leave it at that...Right now, a lot of Cub fans want to crucify Kosuke Fukudome---he's really hitting terribly---but his defense keeps him in the lineup...
Another factor for the Cubs is Mark DeRosa...Six or seven hole hitter---not a lot of fanfare---but plays wherever he's told---Second base, third base, left field, right field---one of the highest batting averages with runners in scoring position...Won't make the all-star team but in my opinion, should win the baseball equivelant of the NBA's "6th man" award...Seems to know if he's up to bat whether to move the runner, drive in the run, get on base, or just go for broke...
And of course, it helps to have a little bit of good pitching..Right now, if the Cubs needed to win one more game to make the playoffs, I'd put my money on Ryan Dempster, their converted closer...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Simon, he's not the pitching coach he's El Presidente of Base-a-bol Operations... he just steps in and lends a hand (and a great deal of credibility) whenever he thinks it may help the youngsters... like the incident I cited with McCarthy, he was talking to him about leg kick and balance... one of the reasons that he looked like he could fire 95 mph fastballs from a lawn chair was his leg strength and kick (and a heck of a lot of natural ability)...
hey... it can't hurt... he did mention today on the radio, when asked if maybe he could get out there and maybe take a turn every 5 days or so, what he could throw... he said that last year in an exhibition in Japan he pitched to Bobby Valentine as a promo thing... didn't really train or anything, just warmed up and threw... they clocked him at 85! at 60 years old (then)
Today we got some really bad news (like we need any more)... Kinsler is on the DL and may have to have season ending surgery for a "sports" hernia... on the dull side (there is no bright side to losing your spark) we get to see Spider Arias make his MLB debut... so now we have 30 available from our 40 man...
oh... and don't forget mstar, Francona learned his managing/coaching skills HERE!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
Yeah, that leg strength and kick came in handy when he beat the bejeezice out of Robin Ventura...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Tough break on Kinsler--
No I didnt know that Francona got his start in Texas, every once in a while he'll talk about Philly ( ...all the years I was there I thought my name was ..You Sukc!.
I know he was Tito's son--so he was walking around big league ballparks since he could walk----You pick up a few things that way.
/sharpening the knife for the fat cow
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Speaking of pitching.....and coaching........I just caught the tail end of the Brewers game, watching Sabathia move to 8-0...How long has he been in the NL? A month or so? Any outside chance he gets the NL CY if the Brewers win the div.?
The thing I was questioning watching him was that they had him throw a complete game when the Brewers were up 9-2. He had around 130 pitches. I dont know how many complete games he has with the Brewers but he leads the NL....in a month plus....
He ate through the AL last year too, then faded in the playoffs, presumably (Ithought anyway) because of his high inning total throughout the year last year. I could be wrong, but I thought that was unnecessary to push him to get the CG....Its not the 70's anymore.....I'll be watching come playoff time to see if these little things mean anything or not but his overall innings must be getting high up there
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
There was just a story about Sabbathia today, the old"hoss" I think they called him...There was some speculation that since the Brewers most likely won't have him around for next year, they're trying to squeeze every pitch they can out of him and get their money's worth...He might be enjoying facing lineups with 8 hitters and a pitcher...I like complete games---but I like to see them more in a 1-0 or 2-1 game...I think the starting pitcher is the most motivated guy on the team to win the particular game he starts, and if he still has some gas in the tank, I'd like to see more of them finish what they start in closer games instead of just thinking they did their job because they pitched 7 good innings...Geeze, you hardly see complete game shutouts, any more...One manager was bemoaning the fact that his pitcher was throwing a no-hitter and thus, couldn't pull him after seven innings---he had to leave him in there until he gave up a hit or the game was over...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Two chances... and Slim's out of town...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
yeah... I know... I was lucky enough to be at that game! It was great!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
I was only kidding... mostly... he was a bench coach for John Narron here in 2002 (they were keeping the seat warm for Buck).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Maybe there's something to the help El Presidente Ryan is giving to the lads...
From Newberg:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
Simon, you're showing your age...but not as much as I do sometimes. "Back in the old days..." I could watch games such as when Tom Cheney struck out 21 batters in 16 innings for the Senators (yeah, those Senators again, !#%@*%@! that Bob Short), or further back in my Dodger days (The Sherry brothers, Johnny Podres, then in later years Don and Sandy...)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
and Koufax lasted how long? until he was 30?
I loved those long games and complete games, but I have to wonder how long someone like Koufax would have lasted if he wasnt pitching way over 300 innings every year with an arm injury. Its not unheard of for pitchers to pitch into their 40's now (Clemens, Johnson, Maddux).
Im not fully enamored the way pitchers are used now with all sorts of specialists that fill a particular and narrow role.
I.E.-The closer who ONLY comes in in the ninth with a 3 run or less lead--I liked the old firemen (more or less the equivelent of todays closer) who came in whenever the going got hot and shut things down for the final 2-3-or 4 innings if necessary--Guys like Rollie Fingers and Goose Gossage---none of this left right, left right switch pitchers 5 times nonsense--just one guy -*bang* -lights out
but it is what it is until someone figures out something else --this is the way its going to be
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
two words: programmable robots!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
Yeah, and what are you, some spring chicken, Lifted?...Don't try and deny you're not getting inundated with mail containing "special offers" from the AARP...God, Washington must have had less pitching than Texas does now...Leave you're starter in there for 16 innings?...I think managers guaged how long a pitcher stayed in the game with how well they were pitching in the game...
One thing I noticed in looking up old stats is that in the days of our youth, the four man rotation was not necessarily the norm for most teams...Bob Gibson never started more than 36 games in one season---usually it was 34-35, meaning he was getting four days rest between starts, as in a five-man rotation...In 68-69 combined, for instance, he started 69 games, 56 were complete games, with a total of 618.2 innings pitched, or 2.1 innings less than averaging a full 9 innings per start...While remembering fondly the old "Spahn and Sain and two days of rain", it seemed like most of the pitchers in those days worked on five days rest, with the exception of the real top guns, like Koufax, Drysdale, Marichal, Fergie, et. al. ...Unless, of course, you where a knuckler like Wilbur Wood or Phil Niekro----then you worked on two days rest and won 20 and lost 20...
Without steroids considered in the equation, it seems like more pitchers have joined the 300 club who were products of the five-man rotation, with Steve Carlton the last guy I can think of who pitched some years in the four -man rotation...I think what I miss are the old matchups of top guns--two battling pros dueling in a 0-0 game until only one man was left standing...The other day Greg Maddux and Jamie Moyer squared off in a "matchup for the aged"...forty something year old guys battling in a 1-0 game...It was great, but neither was around after the 7th---it came down to whose relief staff was better...
Speaking of Maddux, he just got traded to the Dodgers...Now, can somebody explain to me what the phrase "trading deadline" actually means?...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
In 1987 Jack Morris at the Dome v Cardinals pitched the entire 10 innings to win the World Series for the Twins--they do have it in them!! That was a game, I was
glued to the set. I think he was 40 or near to.
Burnetts' performance against the Yanks last night--13 batters! I am not sure if Giambi had his mustache or not.
Dice-K AGAIN walks em and wins???
Eckersley said he wants to throw-up when he watched Dice-K pitch.
Pete Rose--great player--lousy manager.
Maddux had to waive his no trade clause.
It is the 2nd or 3rd time Maddux has been traded in the pennant race. This is his 2nd time with LA-he wants to go out in glory.
TRADING DEADLINE? I don't think it means much?
Shame about Kinsler--does he have enough AB to win the title IF Dustin doesn't run away with it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Here is some interesting fodder for us to discuss until it makes our ears and fingers bleed:
Debunking the Myth of Money: A Manifesto on Pitching
It's a stance that buying FA pitching is not the answer... (it's in response to a majority of stRanger fans screaming for Hicks to bring someone in... something we've been screaming for years btw)...
I can see his points and they make sense... even he points out that if the stRangers had just taken a similar stance to the Twinkies (we will not trade young pitching) we'd have one of the best rotations in MLB right now... BUT... IMO, while I agree with him I also see no problem with going after a legitimate number one to be your ace... and that's something we've never done here. Sometimes it was our fault they wouldn't sign most times it was the stRangers being used to help drive up their price... so we end up signing folks like Millwood and Chan Ho who are really number three's to assume the ace role...
Anyway... enough of my blabbering... there's a lot of stuff to chew on... I think it takes a balance of both: You have to spend money (not just on pitching) AND build and groom talent...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Im a big advocate of developing pitchers from within as the way to go and keeping that top on the priority list but still think it is necessary from time to time to sign a number 1.
The problems seems to come about when pitchers are signed as 1's but are never really more than a 3 or 4 in the first place and they are thrust into arole that they dont have the makeup for----
The Red Sox have been lucky (plus they did a lot of homework) when they shelled out big $$ and signed Pedro Martinez, then traded for Curt Schilling, then won the Daisuke Matsuzaka race, which were all worth it in the long run.
The problem seems to come when they arent really committed to go for the best and trade for a Jeff Suppan, or a 40 year old David Wells and wrongly expect miracles to happen from a maybe .500 pitcher. The Carl Pavano signing by the Yankees was abig deal a few years ago but he has pitched around 3 games in the last 4 years.
Its a gamble and a high stakes one that doesn always work...(i.e. Barry Zito)
Last winter the big talk was Santana and teh squeeze was on for the Red Sox to give up Jon Lester --They held and now Lester is the real ace (although Beckett and DiceK are technically 1 &2).
Just from a business standpoint if you are going to spend $100,000,000, it makes sense to put it in your player development system where you could develop 4, 5, 8, or 10 players in their young years instead of spending it on one "superstar" who may or may not perform imo
Its a tough balance--like being at a casino---
There is no real clear cut answer--although some things work and some things dont.
Im beginning more and more to thinks its the people behind the scenes--the scouts, the minor league coaches, the stat nerds (glad we have Bill James), the development teams that make it all really work on the Big League Fields, if for some reason a team is forced into signing big free agents ( and they all do at one pont or another) its an indicator that something needs to take place and be changed in the minor league system as they should be able to produce big league talent at a regular rate if they are running properly.
It would be much more efficient/ cost effective to do it that way.
Oh and
Hard to believe he has the record he has this year...He always seems to get the bases loaded...then work himself out of a jam.
Jerry Remy suggested last week that they should just allow teams to come up and have the bases loaded already so we can watch him pitch. It seems to be the only time he does anything right..
Its bizarre...
BUT
I'll take the W--ugly or not--its still a W
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
I know what you mean... and it seems like (in the past) we've done a great job of developing pitching and then trading it away ao they can succeed in the bigs on other teams... OUR HOPE (all stRanger fans) is that that will now be a thing of the past... if you look in that blog there's quite a few ex-stRangers in that list of the top 40 ERAs... all of them pretty much given away except for Volquez and we're happy with the outcome of that one...
That being said, and the points in his blog being taken, I still feel we need to go out and get a legitimate number one... whether it's Sebathea or Sheets... they seem to have proven themselves and the only reason their teams wouldn't resign them is dollars... IIRC Zito was a Billy Bean move... maybe he saw something there, he's always been of the 'trade them a year early rather than a year late' mode... but Zito may bounce back...
we've had some real nice reports from the farm this year on pitchers... so we'll see...
I'm still of the opinion that the reason we can't land any real number ones is because nobody wants to come here and pitch in the heat for three months straight...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
... Maybe all you guys could all wave palm fronds in the stands like pharaohs slaves to keep him cool--that is if you aint gonna go for the dome....
Heat might be part of it-- I think that once you get to X amount of dollars there has to be other perks to help people make a decision...I know with Schilling they presented all the baseball stuff and the money but he has written that the thing that put the RS over the top compared to other organizations was they had done the research on the details of his life and set up other things that they knew he was concerned with--- like excellent schools for his kids, and promise of big involvement in his charity work for Lou Gehrigs disease (which he is big into) and several other niceties beyond the playing field to make his stay here for him and his family very comfortable.
Think about it--if you were offered twice what you are making now to uproot to say Cleveland or Milwaukee would you? Maybe --maybe not---but if someone was throwing rose petals at my feet and really showing some care for me outside of hw I perform for them--it might be alittle easier to be persuaded
anyway-----Im distracted..
Im watching the Rays game on ESPN--they have one of the most exciting tams in baseball, are in first place, are playing the first place LAAAAAAAngels---yet there looks to be about 10,000 people in the stands--am I missing something?
I lived in Tampa Bay for 7 years and know 5 miles away from the stadium there are beautiful beaches, boating, water sports and 10 trillion women in bikini's--but 10,000 or so for a game between 2 first place teams? cmon --that just ain't right
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Isn't that what the umpires are afraid of and why they are against the initiation of instant replay?
One can't really understand the term "trading deadline" without the addition of an '*' (asterisk).
With the asterisk representing the fine print, like "trading deadline before players would have to clear waivers." But there's probably more fine print to it than just that.
Speaking of which, tonight Jake Peavy faced off against Dan Haren. Both Cy Young winners and potential candidates this year (if not for Webb having nearly already run away with it). Conventional wisdom = a low scoring pitchers' duel.
Final score: AZ 8, SD 6. Haren gets the win, Peavy the loss. It was not the kind of game anyone expected... but I'll take it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
I don't know all the nuances of the trade deadline, but the story I read said the Dodgers gave up a couple of minor leaguers in their organization...So, what's to keep a team from picking up a Barry Linsecome, or a Josh Hamilton, for that matter, if there's a week left in the season and the teams those guys play for are out of the playoffs?...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.