Yeppers! We learned self-righteous indignation and we definitely learned (by example no less) to NEVER admit you're wrong and never to back down in an argument unless you are arguing with leader.....
So how do we openly discuss this without it breaking down into twi-like sanctimony and bullying?
CW, this is what i was trying to address and stimulate and demonstrate on this thread here.
"dreaming up" ways to shift the dynamic of our discourse into a much wider open space
applying more playfulness and patience to our tongues (and thereby, to each other's hearts)
and so perhaps we can invent and discover together, ever more nourishing and effective and loving "recipes" and "little ditties" of methods and disciplines for heart to heart communion as a "church"
going from that ole pyramid style of spiritual communication
to a round table of equals
our manner of living live communication can be more like that of a salon, or a temple, or a refuge, or a think tank
we ourselves literally become a "safer" place for inquiring together as equals...about things such as: what the heck just happened to me? to us?
sharing secret recipes and notes and tips
like "breaking bread"
we do not, cannot learn much about this in any language of fundamental doctrinal MLM
(though we learn many other things there)
because it requires a certain deeper level of being able to "disrobe our souls" in front of each other
and wanting to learn (believing we can learn) to simply better allow ways of this graciousness to "happen"
i think the way we so often put work before play in our deeper discourses has taken the flavor out of the whole process
but if the majority does not recognize or support such dialogue as valid or valuable or sane, the seed of the idea falls by the wayside
simplicity innocently overlooked...like a piece of gold in a fish's mouth
So how do we openly discuss this without it breaking down into twi-like sanctimony and bullying?
I think we could achieve this in discussing almost anything by trying to understand each other and taking the time to learn why other people communicate differently or believe differently than we do, instead of being defensive and getting pi$$ed off and nasty when someone disagrees with us.
Isn't that part of what love is about? Humility and selflessness. None of us achieves that all the time, but wouldn't it be a nice thing to shoot for, rather than shooting at each other with word-bulltets?
Back to your original question, CW...yes, there were plenty of examples in twi of how to fight dirty. I've also seen similar examples in the places where I've worked, the places where I've attended school, the neighborhoods where I've lived.
I think it's man's lowest nature to try to be the one on top, the one in charge. Isn't that what got humankind in trouble in the first place, when ya think about it--that desire to be right and smart and respected as some wise one.
Of course, the leaders of twi claimed to walk in love. Sometimes some of them did, sometimes they didn't. Many of them grew more and more "in love" with being right than being loving. Instead of humbling themselves in service, they were humiliating those they were supposed to be serving.
That "fighting dirty" influence is still evident in GS discussions. I think there really is a war going on in our heads. You can call it "old man" vs. "new man" or "the worst in humankind" vs. "the best in humankind" or whatever you want, but I believe that struggle is real.
Whether we win the struggle or not (love wins--thanks for that simple truth in your signature, Oeno, in case you drop into this thread) depends on whether we want to stop and consider that maybe "I" shouldn't be the most important word in our vocabularies.
I think some of the nastiness comes from that "false sense of likemindedness," but I think a lot of it comes from plain old ego, fueled by the fires of anonymity afforded by the Internet.
I might be full of hooey, but that's how I see it.
...Sure, the underlying problems with twi had a LOT to do with ego...they always paid lipservice to "serving others" but in reality, it was just the opposite. A good example of that was the infamous "footwashers" fellowship, that consisted of the uppity ups...belonging to that "fellowship" became a very prestigious thing indeed...funny when you think about it.
...but that was the learned behavior...if you suddenly found yourself promoted to branch leader, people would be scurrying for favor with you, kissing your foot and waiting on you hand and foot...and that was just a branch leader...but the tendency was to create a micro version of what the top leaders were setting out as the example...and the cop out explanation for it was that you were showing "respect" for God, by showing "respect" for the "holy appointed one", perched upon his lofty position in the cult tree. If you accused one of them of being on an ego trip, you were sharply rebuked and quickly put in your place...and they actually BELIEVED they were right...they actually felt that they SHOULD be treated as some kind of "spiritual royalty".
When everything washed out in the late 80's, there was a rude awakening for a lot of people. It was a time of confrontation...and of finally telling them...No, I'm through kissing your foot. Of course, the powerful emotion of having to be right came into play...and as many witnessed, LCM, in his own disturbed mind, felt that he was right and everybody else was wrong...thus the loyalty oath.
In the final analysis, the egotistical mentality of twi leadership was destined to be that way...why? Because the founder excused Christ from his "ministry" and took his place as the mog...the rest was predictable.
...So, to go back to the original point of this thread...Did they teach us to fight dirty? You betcha.
By placing the "leader" up on a pedastel, you have, in effect, lowered yourself. You are at a definite disadvantage, because they are the leader and you're not...God was on their side...and they (twi "leaders"), learned to take advantage of this...they exploited people's weaknesses, bullied them, intimidated them, and worse...
Twi's "leadership training" program was a breeding ground for this mentality...
Great thread, great things! I'd love to participate in another shot at the chat thing. Any plans for another 'session'?
You wrote: "but if the majority does not recognize or support such dialogue as valid or valuable or sane, the seed of the idea falls by the wayside"
Yes, yes, yes!!!! This is what I see happens quite frequently when somebody 'misbehaves'. The rest of what you say, "simplicity innocently overlooked...like a piece of gold in a fish's mouth" is the cost...and it's a cost that we all paid too frequently in twi.
So, I'd love to see a thread dedicated to unlearning that 'top dog' mentality. A thread that would probably get down and dirty before it got uplifted and cleaned. A thread where participants can point out the things that trigger way brain/way responses...and would agree to not be right, but be willing to work it out.
And I'd like to see it out in this here "About The Way" forum because even if we didn't actually learn the 'top dog' mentality in twi, we learned how to hone it to a razor's edge in twi...and then wield as the sword of something against one another.
Which is one of the deepest pains left over from twi, imo.
::shrug:: Maybe I'm just crazy and need a couch visit? ::shrug:: ;)-->
*************************
Linda,
Yes!
And I agree...it's base human nature...feeding the id and the ego...not even considering the possibility of stepping into the super-ego for a moment. (OK...so Freud I'm not...and Freud wasn't God...but I'm going somewhere with this...I think...maybe I'll figure out where later on...? ;)--> )
But there's something else at play here, too, imo.
I figured it out after watching Belle's thread deteriorate, and then reading Catcup's words about her marriage: twi taught us that if we all didn't think alike, talk alike, believe alike, act alike, function alike, then the 'odd man out' is not only possessed, seed boy, or worse, but is to be mocked, ridiculed, defamed and called names. And if all else fails, nothing less than out-and-out banishment will suffice to shut up the 'problem child'.
From both observation and experience, three things happen when at a juncture of 'unlike-mindedness': 1)A gaggle of drummers develops, 2)A lineup of lemmings willing to row to the beat of the drummers develops, and 3)There is always someone who has to 'walk the plank' if a different beat develops. (I'm trying to metaphorically use a Viking ship set-up...pardon me if I screw it up...especially since I'm mixing soooooo many metaphors in this post that someone is going to regurgitate and then have to set me straight. :o--> ;)--> )
Anyway, as I've said already, this mentality was honed to a razor's edge in twi...and, from both observation and experience, it is one of the most pervasive of way-brained mentalities simply because it is also human nature.
But...I may be 'full of hooey', too. ;)-->
********************
Groucho,
What you said...
"In the final analysis, the egotistical mentality of twi leadership was destined to be that way...why? Because the founder excused Christ from his "ministry" and took his place as the mog...the rest was predictable."
Oh yeah!
I have found that, regardless of one's religious beliefs, if one does not recognize one's own inadequacy, one will never be able to overcome one's own inadequacy...and will simply rise to the highest level of that inadequacy.
Or something like that... ;)-->
*************************
So, does anyone think we could pull off a thread such as I have described above?
Or maybe the question should be...
Does anyone think Pawtucket and the moderators could survive such a thread as I've described above?
(Now before anyone responds...give me a chance to read this after posted...to see if I want to change anything... ;)--> )
OK...I'm comfortable with my post now. Thanks! :D-->
I have seen a tendency in ex-Way people to maintain that indignant attitude towards other Christians, even though they have rejected every other habit they learned in TWI. It's like they don't even realize that they are continuing to look down their noses at people who believe differently. Particularly regarding issues such as the Trinity or homosexuality or life after death. These three absolutes which were programmed into us by TWI ... continue to keep us separate from other groups, due to our own arrogance, and effectively isolate many ex-wayfers from participation with decent Bible believing people. Maybe this learned indignation is one of the last holds that TWI has on us. It is toxic. How can we shake it off? -X
I think it's human nature to not back down if you think you're right and feel strongly enough about an issue. Whether you're talking to your kids, siblings, parents, peers, etc. But what fueled it was we have the ministry of reconciliation and we can talk to strangers about religion, which is a no no for many people.
So those people we talk to are going to be more likely to feel violated by our witness, which will lead to confrontation and dispute. But truth is always on the offense so you can't just accept that the person is not interested and excuse yourself, you gotta keep disputing, right, because you're standing on the word or something.
It's because twi taught us a false form of 'likemindedness'.
I think you're right.
We had "endeavor to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace" not only drummed into our heads, but distorted to the point that even if we thought someone was wrong, if they were leadership, we were NOT to confront them for the sake of "keeping the bond of peace."
Not to mention the fact that I sat through teachings and counseling where I was taught that even if a leader IS wrong, you are obligated to follow them and GOD will make it right.
After finally leaving this cult, and finding they have a right to an opinion and a voice, and not only a voice, but a right to stand up for what they truly believe is right, and against what they truly believe is wrong (whether their opinion is correct or not in any given situation) folks begin to exercise those rights and assert themselves whenever they can.
I think that part is good. I think it is natural. And I think it is necessary. It is a caged bird finally free, beginning to discover and exercise its wings.
But like anything in life, it is difficult to find a balance-- in this case, between exercising your own rights and abilities, and recognizing the other person's right to do the same-- among other issues.
Also, TWI interrupted the natural socialization process for many young adults, who came to TWI just when they were beginning to learn how to deal with adult situations, and socially interact with and as adults in an adult world. TWI perverted that process, and unfortunately left many people socially crippled and unable to understand how how to interact in the real world. This can negatively affect them in their jobs and in their family, marital, and social relationships.
Not to mention having to deal with the effects of suffering various types of abuse at the hands of sociopathic dominating authority figures.
Combine all that with finally discovering your voice and right to an opinion, and you can see what can happen.
It is a lot for anyone to have to deal with and there is an endless combination of factors that can easily turn what should be normal conversations into volatile confrontations.
I would agree with missing the socialization process.
I have a hard time functioning as a real adult in the job market. After so many years of taking bad treatment...I put up with it at work too. And I have difficulty figuring out how to deal with it or address the issues.
(Of course it doesnt help that co-workers frequently yell at each other either! -->)
I would say that even extends to my marriage. To keep the peace, I bite my tongue. Then I reach explosion point.
I agree that one of the components of waybrain is the arrogance of being right concerning biblical doctrine...even after we have denounced twi and moved on with our lives.
This attitude has to be dragged out into the light of day, to be resolved. For years I thought that I was over it, until I was invited to a church (I went reluctantly)...I sat there with an attitude of "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about"...after church, I went home and thought about my attitude...I knew I was wrong for feeling that way, but a lot of the doctrine was imbedded in my mind...what to do?
For me, I decided that it was time to consider those doctrinal issues that twi had pounded into my brain cells...I decided to question every damn thing they ever taught me...it was an internal process that took time. It was more attitude than it was actual doctrine...once I got passed the attitude problem, the doctrines seemed to unravel on their own. To this day, I don't think that twi was wrong about EVERYTHING they taught...but for me, if there is some biblical doctrine that twi was correct about...then I consider that the exception.
For me, it's ok NOT TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...I am more peaceful with myself when I simply shrug and say..."I have no idea", when another Christian asks my opinion about some specific doctrine. There was a time in my life when I felt the need to "step up" and "explain" things to people...I no longer feel this way.
...and the socialization process becomes more natural and easy to deal with, once the twi thinking is laid aside.
Catcup, I never thought about the socialization process. You're so right!
I've always had self-esteem issues, but never to the detrimental level that TWI and my ex brought me down to. I think I must have lived like a cornered animal for so many years that I began attacking and fighting everyone on every front.
I would argue and yell at my co-workers like craig yelled at us. I would be impatient with them like they were with us. Then I switched jobs and didn't want to act like that anymore, but I didn't know what "normal" was, so I ended up keeping my mouth shut and trying to keep people from knowing anything about me and TWI. It was extremely awkward and I felt like everyone thought I was "weird". I did get into some heated debates with a few people, but nothing like the former job.
After getting out, getting divorced and starting a new job at a new company, I feel as if I've grown past that for the most part, which means I behave and get along with co-workers like I did BEFORE TWI's influences came into my life. No one here believes me when I tell them what a biatch I was. They think I'm kidding.
I still have a lot further to go, but I'm so much further along than I ever thought I would be with less than one year of freedom. Discussions like this one really help so much!
And, Groucho, you're absolutely right about not having to have all the answers. One of my favorite answers now is, "I don't know." and, if necessary, "I don't really care to know." or "I really think it doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things." :D-->
TWI taught us how to fight dirty...even 'to the death' (in a figurative sense...I think...).
I agree. They taught us to fight, and dirty at that:
With our family. Sixteen easy lessons to learn how to smile, nod, and think they are full of ...., all at the same time. And never accept no for an answer. "You wanna take this class?" "No." "Well, maybe you just don't know all the benefits like I do..."
With our acquaintences and co-workers. NEVER (at least from a practical sense) accept NO for an answer. "You wanna take this class?" "No."
"Well, maybe you just don't know all the benefits like I do..."
With our spouses. Continuously look for any form of "devilishness" and report it immediately. Can't have anything "unclean" in the camp, you know..
Probably the worst, they taught us to fight dirty with OURSELVES. Just renew the mind, ignore the bad manners, hold questions about idiotic doctrine in abeyance, until TWI experts can "get back to you about it". Sit and take it because "the bible tells me so". Forget that that little voice telling you all is not well may just not be the devil himself.
Oh yes...that justified, self-righteous, set apart indignation! -->
Several weeks ago I began attending a Vineyard church...again...after several attempts to get past my own way brain...
Shortly thereafter, a little woman's study/friendship group started. We opted to do a workbook thing called 'Experiencing God'. (I know...I know...a class! But we're not handling it like a class...and I am well aware of the possible pitfalls of following the author 'to the T'. http://www.str.org/free/solid_ground/SG9901.htm will take you to a critique of the book. You'll have to register to read it...but it's a great overall site worth having in your Favorites...imo.)
Anyway, this effort is helping me remove the twi blinders from my understanding of the bible.
The bible is a completely different book than twi presented! And, according to the bible, who we are 'in Christ' is totally different what twi beat into our heads.
I'm soooooooooooo thankful to be able read the bible, fellowship with other Christians, enjoy life, and actually be a Christian without having to be a 'sogwap' or 'mog' or whatever twi would have had us to be!
*******************************
johniam,
Oh yeah...it was our 'gawdly' ministry, doncha know!
My daughter didn't think there was much God about it...and neither did most of the other twi children we knew. :(-->
***********************
Catcup,
There's sooooooooo much in your post that I want to address its individual points. Would you mind?
***********************
smurfette!
You just scratched the surface of yet even another area in which we were crippled because of twi. I cannot even hardly think about it all at one time!
***********************
Groucho,
I got to the point that I just chucked it all out...the bible, Christianity, what I thought was 'god' and 'jesus'...all of it and started over from scratch.
I'm nowhere near undoing my way brain in this area, but I am approaching it all from a searching place instead of a knowing place...and there's a HUGE difference.
Being a Christian requires something different from all of us, whether we're in leadership or not, than it requires of the rest of the world. You are not allowed to be arrogant if you're a Christian. It is not allowed. It is against the rules. You don't have the freedom to be caustic or abrasive. You don't have the freedom to be a complainer. That is not allowed. You don't have the freedom to be self-centered and self-consumed. That is not allowed. When you indulge in those things because of a misappropriated sense of the grace of God, you are bringing discredit upon the very name that you profess to honor.
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Shellon
Yes indeed, CW, even to the death.
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Catcup
Darn!
And I thought we was gonna get spicy!
You're quite welcome, CW.
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Belle
Yeppers! We learned self-righteous indignation and we definitely learned (by example no less) to NEVER admit you're wrong and never to back down in an argument unless you are arguing with leader.....
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Allan
Self righteous indignation, no backing down when wrong, name calling, mes' thinks some of the posters at GSC don't do too bad themselves !!
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CoolWaters
{{{{{Shellon}}}}}
I am so very sorry.
*********************
Oh boy oh boy oh boy have I ever been guilty of this as charged!!!!
So how do we openly discuss this without it breaking down into twi-like sanctimony and bullying?
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sirguessalot
CW, this is what i was trying to address and stimulate and demonstrate on this thread here.
"dreaming up" ways to shift the dynamic of our discourse into a much wider open space
applying more playfulness and patience to our tongues (and thereby, to each other's hearts)
and so perhaps we can invent and discover together, ever more nourishing and effective and loving "recipes" and "little ditties" of methods and disciplines for heart to heart communion as a "church"
going from that ole pyramid style of spiritual communication
to a round table of equals
our manner of living live communication can be more like that of a salon, or a temple, or a refuge, or a think tank
we ourselves literally become a "safer" place for inquiring together as equals...about things such as: what the heck just happened to me? to us?
sharing secret recipes and notes and tips
like "breaking bread"
we do not, cannot learn much about this in any language of fundamental doctrinal MLM
(though we learn many other things there)
because it requires a certain deeper level of being able to "disrobe our souls" in front of each other
and wanting to learn (believing we can learn) to simply better allow ways of this graciousness to "happen"
i think the way we so often put work before play in our deeper discourses has taken the flavor out of the whole process
but if the majority does not recognize or support such dialogue as valid or valuable or sane, the seed of the idea falls by the wayside
simplicity innocently overlooked...like a piece of gold in a fish's mouth
imo
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Linda Z
I think we could achieve this in discussing almost anything by trying to understand each other and taking the time to learn why other people communicate differently or believe differently than we do, instead of being defensive and getting pi$$ed off and nasty when someone disagrees with us.
Isn't that part of what love is about? Humility and selflessness. None of us achieves that all the time, but wouldn't it be a nice thing to shoot for, rather than shooting at each other with word-bulltets?
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Oh sure Linda...You're just trying to pick a fight!
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GrouchoMarxJr
just kiddin'
-->
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Linda Z
Back to your original question, CW...yes, there were plenty of examples in twi of how to fight dirty. I've also seen similar examples in the places where I've worked, the places where I've attended school, the neighborhoods where I've lived.
I think it's man's lowest nature to try to be the one on top, the one in charge. Isn't that what got humankind in trouble in the first place, when ya think about it--that desire to be right and smart and respected as some wise one.
Of course, the leaders of twi claimed to walk in love. Sometimes some of them did, sometimes they didn't. Many of them grew more and more "in love" with being right than being loving. Instead of humbling themselves in service, they were humiliating those they were supposed to be serving.
That "fighting dirty" influence is still evident in GS discussions. I think there really is a war going on in our heads. You can call it "old man" vs. "new man" or "the worst in humankind" vs. "the best in humankind" or whatever you want, but I believe that struggle is real.
Whether we win the struggle or not (love wins--thanks for that simple truth in your signature, Oeno, in case you drop into this thread) depends on whether we want to stop and consider that maybe "I" shouldn't be the most important word in our vocabularies.
I think some of the nastiness comes from that "false sense of likemindedness," but I think a lot of it comes from plain old ego, fueled by the fires of anonymity afforded by the Internet.
I might be full of hooey, but that's how I see it.
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Linda Z
Groucho:
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Sure, the underlying problems with twi had a LOT to do with ego...they always paid lipservice to "serving others" but in reality, it was just the opposite. A good example of that was the infamous "footwashers" fellowship, that consisted of the uppity ups...belonging to that "fellowship" became a very prestigious thing indeed...funny when you think about it.
...but that was the learned behavior...if you suddenly found yourself promoted to branch leader, people would be scurrying for favor with you, kissing your foot and waiting on you hand and foot...and that was just a branch leader...but the tendency was to create a micro version of what the top leaders were setting out as the example...and the cop out explanation for it was that you were showing "respect" for God, by showing "respect" for the "holy appointed one", perched upon his lofty position in the cult tree. If you accused one of them of being on an ego trip, you were sharply rebuked and quickly put in your place...and they actually BELIEVED they were right...they actually felt that they SHOULD be treated as some kind of "spiritual royalty".
When everything washed out in the late 80's, there was a rude awakening for a lot of people. It was a time of confrontation...and of finally telling them...No, I'm through kissing your foot. Of course, the powerful emotion of having to be right came into play...and as many witnessed, LCM, in his own disturbed mind, felt that he was right and everybody else was wrong...thus the loyalty oath.
In the final analysis, the egotistical mentality of twi leadership was destined to be that way...why? Because the founder excused Christ from his "ministry" and took his place as the mog...the rest was predictable.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...So, to go back to the original point of this thread...Did they teach us to fight dirty? You betcha.
By placing the "leader" up on a pedastel, you have, in effect, lowered yourself. You are at a definite disadvantage, because they are the leader and you're not...God was on their side...and they (twi "leaders"), learned to take advantage of this...they exploited people's weaknesses, bullied them, intimidated them, and worse...
Twi's "leadership training" program was a breeding ground for this mentality...
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CoolWaters
+odd!
Great thread, great things! I'd love to participate in another shot at the chat thing. Any plans for another 'session'?
You wrote: "but if the majority does not recognize or support such dialogue as valid or valuable or sane, the seed of the idea falls by the wayside"
Yes, yes, yes!!!! This is what I see happens quite frequently when somebody 'misbehaves'. The rest of what you say, "simplicity innocently overlooked...like a piece of gold in a fish's mouth" is the cost...and it's a cost that we all paid too frequently in twi.
So, I'd love to see a thread dedicated to unlearning that 'top dog' mentality. A thread that would probably get down and dirty before it got uplifted and cleaned. A thread where participants can point out the things that trigger way brain/way responses...and would agree to not be right, but be willing to work it out.
And I'd like to see it out in this here "About The Way" forum because even if we didn't actually learn the 'top dog' mentality in twi, we learned how to hone it to a razor's edge in twi...and then wield as the sword of something against one another.
Which is one of the deepest pains left over from twi, imo.
::shrug:: Maybe I'm just crazy and need a couch visit? ::shrug::
;)-->
*************************
Linda,
Yes!
And I agree...it's base human nature...feeding the id and the ego...not even considering the possibility of stepping into the super-ego for a moment. (OK...so Freud I'm not...and Freud wasn't God...but I'm going somewhere with this...I think...maybe I'll figure out where later on...?
;)--> )
But there's something else at play here, too, imo.
I figured it out after watching Belle's thread deteriorate, and then reading Catcup's words about her marriage: twi taught us that if we all didn't think alike, talk alike, believe alike, act alike, function alike, then the 'odd man out' is not only possessed, seed boy, or worse, but is to be mocked, ridiculed, defamed and called names. And if all else fails, nothing less than out-and-out banishment will suffice to shut up the 'problem child'.
From both observation and experience, three things happen when at a juncture of 'unlike-mindedness': 1)A gaggle of drummers develops, 2)A lineup of lemmings willing to row to the beat of the drummers develops, and 3)There is always someone who has to 'walk the plank' if a different beat develops. (I'm trying to metaphorically use a Viking ship set-up...pardon me if I screw it up...especially since I'm mixing soooooo many metaphors in this post that someone is going to regurgitate and then have to set me straight.
:o--> 
;)--> )
Anyway, as I've said already, this mentality was honed to a razor's edge in twi...and, from both observation and experience, it is one of the most pervasive of way-brained mentalities simply because it is also human nature.
But...I may be 'full of hooey', too.
;)-->
********************
Groucho,
What you said...
"In the final analysis, the egotistical mentality of twi leadership was destined to be that way...why? Because the founder excused Christ from his "ministry" and took his place as the mog...the rest was predictable."
Oh yeah!
I have found that, regardless of one's religious beliefs, if one does not recognize one's own inadequacy, one will never be able to overcome one's own inadequacy...and will simply rise to the highest level of that inadequacy.
Or something like that...
;)-->
*************************
So, does anyone think we could pull off a thread such as I have described above?
Or maybe the question should be...
Does anyone think Pawtucket and the moderators could survive such a thread as I've described above?
(Now before anyone responds...give me a chance to read this after posted...to see if I want to change anything...
;)--> )
OK...I'm comfortable with my post now. Thanks!
:D-->
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Xena
I have seen a tendency in ex-Way people to maintain that indignant attitude towards other Christians, even though they have rejected every other habit they learned in TWI. It's like they don't even realize that they are continuing to look down their noses at people who believe differently. Particularly regarding issues such as the Trinity or homosexuality or life after death. These three absolutes which were programmed into us by TWI ... continue to keep us separate from other groups, due to our own arrogance, and effectively isolate many ex-wayfers from participation with decent Bible believing people. Maybe this learned indignation is one of the last holds that TWI has on us. It is toxic. How can we shake it off? -X
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johniam
I think it's human nature to not back down if you think you're right and feel strongly enough about an issue. Whether you're talking to your kids, siblings, parents, peers, etc. But what fueled it was we have the ministry of reconciliation and we can talk to strangers about religion, which is a no no for many people.
So those people we talk to are going to be more likely to feel violated by our witness, which will lead to confrontation and dispute. But truth is always on the offense so you can't just accept that the person is not interested and excuse yourself, you gotta keep disputing, right, because you're standing on the word or something.
A lot of us got pulled into that whirlwind.
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Catcup
I think you're right.
We had "endeavor to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace" not only drummed into our heads, but distorted to the point that even if we thought someone was wrong, if they were leadership, we were NOT to confront them for the sake of "keeping the bond of peace."
Not to mention the fact that I sat through teachings and counseling where I was taught that even if a leader IS wrong, you are obligated to follow them and GOD will make it right.
After finally leaving this cult, and finding they have a right to an opinion and a voice, and not only a voice, but a right to stand up for what they truly believe is right, and against what they truly believe is wrong (whether their opinion is correct or not in any given situation) folks begin to exercise those rights and assert themselves whenever they can.
I think that part is good. I think it is natural. And I think it is necessary. It is a caged bird finally free, beginning to discover and exercise its wings.
But like anything in life, it is difficult to find a balance-- in this case, between exercising your own rights and abilities, and recognizing the other person's right to do the same-- among other issues.
Also, TWI interrupted the natural socialization process for many young adults, who came to TWI just when they were beginning to learn how to deal with adult situations, and socially interact with and as adults in an adult world. TWI perverted that process, and unfortunately left many people socially crippled and unable to understand how how to interact in the real world. This can negatively affect them in their jobs and in their family, marital, and social relationships.
Not to mention having to deal with the effects of suffering various types of abuse at the hands of sociopathic dominating authority figures.
Combine all that with finally discovering your voice and right to an opinion, and you can see what can happen.
It is a lot for anyone to have to deal with and there is an endless combination of factors that can easily turn what should be normal conversations into volatile confrontations.
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smurfette
Catcup,
I would agree with missing the socialization process.
I have a hard time functioning as a real adult in the job market. After so many years of taking bad treatment...I put up with it at work too. And I have difficulty figuring out how to deal with it or address the issues.
(Of course it doesnt help that co-workers frequently yell at each other either!
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I would say that even extends to my marriage. To keep the peace, I bite my tongue. Then I reach explosion point.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I agree that one of the components of waybrain is the arrogance of being right concerning biblical doctrine...even after we have denounced twi and moved on with our lives.
This attitude has to be dragged out into the light of day, to be resolved. For years I thought that I was over it, until I was invited to a church (I went reluctantly)...I sat there with an attitude of "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about"...after church, I went home and thought about my attitude...I knew I was wrong for feeling that way, but a lot of the doctrine was imbedded in my mind...what to do?
For me, I decided that it was time to consider those doctrinal issues that twi had pounded into my brain cells...I decided to question every damn thing they ever taught me...it was an internal process that took time. It was more attitude than it was actual doctrine...once I got passed the attitude problem, the doctrines seemed to unravel on their own. To this day, I don't think that twi was wrong about EVERYTHING they taught...but for me, if there is some biblical doctrine that twi was correct about...then I consider that the exception.
For me, it's ok NOT TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS...I am more peaceful with myself when I simply shrug and say..."I have no idea", when another Christian asks my opinion about some specific doctrine. There was a time in my life when I felt the need to "step up" and "explain" things to people...I no longer feel this way.
...and the socialization process becomes more natural and easy to deal with, once the twi thinking is laid aside.
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Belle
Catcup, I never thought about the socialization process. You're so right!
I've always had self-esteem issues, but never to the detrimental level that TWI and my ex brought me down to. I think I must have lived like a cornered animal for so many years that I began attacking and fighting everyone on every front.
I would argue and yell at my co-workers like craig yelled at us. I would be impatient with them like they were with us. Then I switched jobs and didn't want to act like that anymore, but I didn't know what "normal" was, so I ended up keeping my mouth shut and trying to keep people from knowing anything about me and TWI. It was extremely awkward and I felt like everyone thought I was "weird". I did get into some heated debates with a few people, but nothing like the former job.
After getting out, getting divorced and starting a new job at a new company, I feel as if I've grown past that for the most part, which means I behave and get along with co-workers like I did BEFORE TWI's influences came into my life. No one here believes me when I tell them what a biatch I was. They think I'm kidding.
I still have a lot further to go, but I'm so much further along than I ever thought I would be with less than one year of freedom. Discussions like this one really help so much!
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Belle
And, Groucho, you're absolutely right about not having to have all the answers. One of my favorite answers now is, "I don't know." and, if necessary, "I don't really care to know." or "I really think it doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things."
:D-->
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Ham
I agree. They taught us to fight, and dirty at that:
With our family. Sixteen easy lessons to learn how to smile, nod, and think they are full of ...., all at the same time. And never accept no for an answer. "You wanna take this class?" "No." "Well, maybe you just don't know all the benefits like I do..."
With our acquaintences and co-workers. NEVER (at least from a practical sense) accept NO for an answer. "You wanna take this class?" "No."
"Well, maybe you just don't know all the benefits like I do..."
With our spouses. Continuously look for any form of "devilishness" and report it immediately. Can't have anything "unclean" in the camp, you know..
Probably the worst, they taught us to fight dirty with OURSELVES. Just renew the mind, ignore the bad manners, hold questions about idiotic doctrine in abeyance, until TWI experts can "get back to you about it". Sit and take it because "the bible tells me so". Forget that that little voice telling you all is not well may just not be the devil himself.
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CoolWaters
Oh yes...that justified, self-righteous, set apart indignation!
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Several weeks ago I began attending a Vineyard church...again...after several attempts to get past my own way brain...
Shortly thereafter, a little woman's study/friendship group started. We opted to do a workbook thing called 'Experiencing God'. (I know...I know...a class!
But we're not handling it like a class...and I am well aware of the possible pitfalls of following the author 'to the T'. http://www.str.org/free/solid_ground/SG9901.htm will take you to a critique of the book. You'll have to register to read it...but it's a great overall site worth having in your Favorites...imo.)
Anyway, this effort is helping me remove the twi blinders from my understanding of the bible.
The bible is a completely different book than twi presented! And, according to the bible, who we are 'in Christ' is totally different what twi beat into our heads.
I'm soooooooooooo thankful to be able read the bible, fellowship with other Christians, enjoy life, and actually be a Christian without having to be a 'sogwap' or 'mog' or whatever twi would have had us to be!
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johniam,
Oh yeah...it was our 'gawdly' ministry, doncha know!
My daughter didn't think there was much God about it...and neither did most of the other twi children we knew.
:(-->
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Catcup,
There's sooooooooo much in your post that I want to address its individual points. Would you mind?
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smurfette!
You just scratched the surface of yet even another area in which we were crippled because of twi.
I cannot even hardly think about it all at one time!
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Groucho,
I got to the point that I just chucked it all out...the bible, Christianity, what I thought was 'god' and 'jesus'...all of it and started over from scratch.
I'm nowhere near undoing my way brain in this area, but I am approaching it all from a searching place instead of a knowing place...and there's a HUGE difference.
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CoolWaters
Hmmmm! Reading through some other articles from the Stand To Reason site, I came across the article, The Most Pathetic Question
Here is a quote from that article:
Hmmmm!
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