The steps to grief that vickles posted are very true. One thing to keep in mind,though is that they do not always stay in order or come in clear steps.
Some steps linger through other steps, some steps come out of order for some people.
Whatever way these steps happen to an individual is right for that individual, and if they are getting counseling...noone should ever say that they should be "over" that part by now.
Some people may take little time whereas others may take years to process.
I might add that if you don't go through this process and/or allow yourself to then you are going to take years if ever to heal from your grief.
As grief doesn't have to be that a loved one passed away. It could be a divorce or even a child that moved away and divorced themself from you. There are a lot of reasons why a person is grieving.
I would tend to agree. Most of the personal material had already been deleted from the individual posts, anyway. I think a lot of valuable learning may have been lost. :(-->
George
Valuable learning? The only thing missing from the thread now is the gossip.
No Mod.......you are not correct in your interpretation.
I am not out to cause trouble here.....just to point out a flaw in reasoning and motivation. One of the parties spilling their guts does not equal gossip. Your personal reaction....THAT is gossip.
Radar
Another lesson to be learned here....if your intention is to minimize attention to a thread, and protect the parties involved...DON'T REMOVE THE THREAD and pretend like nothing happened. If you must, do some editing and then be prepared to take the flak. You remove a thread for any reason, for any length of time, all that is accomplished is to OBVIATE the entire issue.
Go back about 25 pages to the DIVORCE thread started by x70sHouston. That situation was handled with more grace and concern for the individuals involved.
NOW...that said, I don't have a horse in this race...just observations about the careless way this was handled.
I wasn't trying to hide anything. I pulled the thread, and explained why in a new thread. It takes time to go through a thread and weed out offending posts, let alone sentences or words. I was using a meat cleaver and not a scalpel because I didn't have time to go through each post and I wanted to get the thread back up so yall could keep it going, without drawing too much attention to anybodies personal situation.
It's always a judgement call and in my judgement, too many personal details were being dragged in.
I think that many women wait untill they are in their 50s and the children are grown .... feeling that they will have then dispatched their responsibilities......
Sometimes, one realises that they have spent an entire lifetime doing what everyone else wanted.....from having to follow their parents rules as children and teens and then entering marriage, with the spouse insisting on final say in most matters for many years....even the choices we finally DO start making have to be weighed according to impacton the family....
When my children are grown and I am in my mid fifties, freedome to be on my own will be quite enticing.
Nobody to gripe and complain....nobody to squash ambitions, critisize my efforts....I can eat what I want, when I want,
Shoot, maybe it takes 50 years for us to grow in confidence (ie get smart enough) to realise that we are capable, that our dreams are important, that our opinions have merit, and that we live in a country where we have the privledge to live and enjoy life as we see fit.
We are no longer bound by social constraints to remain in a marriage where we are unhappy....
Several posts have been deleted that refer to a specific situation involving GS posters.
If your post contained other information that did not pertain to this situation, or if an innocent post was accidently axed, we apologize.
Please do not use the GS public forums to air your private matters.
I think you need to clarify what you mean. GS has always been a forum where the members could discuss personal issues. If you mean potentially embarassing, sexual issues of a personal nature, I suggest you move the thread to an adults only section instead of moderating.
Whether or not a member discloses personal details on the forums should be left up to the member. Where it is placed should be up to the moderator.
Yes at GS personal issues can be discussed anonymously. As soon as names are known, the responsibility shifts. Do you use your last name here? I do not know. If you do, and if your wife used her name too and came here to post "potentially embarrassing, sexual issues of a personal nature" would you want that thread on the Open Forum?
If BOTH of the people want to discuss their sex lives here at GS, fine. But I want to hear from BOTH. Then they can say whatever they want and whoever wants to at GS can give their advice and opinions. But if ONE of them wants any privacy, the moderators will try to make sure they have it. Their names are known. Their situation is known. If they BOTH want it discussed openly here, use the Contact Us feature, or a PM to let me know.
rascal, I understand what your saying. I think a lot of women do wait until the kids are grown. But the thing is why do women wait so long and stay miserable? In my opinion if its that awful then its making the kids miserable too.
Now, I'm not advocating divorce, in fact I'm more for marriage. But if its that bad then its probably abusive and the pattern goes on and on for generation after generation.
I'm wondering if maybe a lot of it is that when the kids are growing up the whole purpose is about the kids and when the kids are gone they have nothing in common.
I have two kids. My daughter moved out not too long ago. One weekend my son spent with a friend of his.
It was really strange. I looked at my significant other and it was like ok now what do we do? We haven't been together for ten or fifteen years but if we had maybe we wouldn't have been able to work through it.
Well Vickles, It may not necessarily be a case of *misery*, or of abuse.
It may simply be a lifetime of making choices of what is best for all family members involved.....be that staying together or divorce.
I just know that many chose to wait untill the children are grown.....believing that once this responsibility is fulfilled, that after decades, of putting aside ones dreams and ambitions, that at 50 maybe it is time to focus on ones own desire and personal development.
Sometimes we have spouses that are supportive and take care of us and our needs, that allow and encourage us to grow and explore our interests....sometimes our spouses are oblivious to our suffering, I know some that even activly opposing efforts of their wives to grow.
Maybe after we have spent our entire lives taking care of everyone else, at 50 we decide maybe it is *our* turn.
Many of my friends have gone back to college, or started new hobbies, I am persuing my lifelong goal of studying martial arts, and training horses. Some of my friends are starting businesses.....Many of us are fortunate to have indulgent understanding spouses that encourage and support us, I tend to think that those are the marriages that will make it..... while others of us are stuck with selfish fellows who still believe it should be our sole function to serve them and keep them happy.
I am just trying to give answeres as I see em from my personal experience and those of my friends and family in their 40`s and 50s ....
It sounds good to me. After being responsible to a family for years and years it would be kind of nice to think of me every once in a while. So I understand that perspective of it.
But I think the important thing is to take care of ourselves during the time we are taking care of our families. I'm in a support group for parents and the one thing that is really stressed is how important it is to do something for ourselves. Otherwise we might not have anything to give.
everyone seems to think I need to be married to be happy.
but if a couple has been through nearly a life time together and have been in the least sharing of raising the children , money health etc. I do think it is kind of selfish to just change your mind and end what was promised to be a life time thing. Because you want something different or the kids are grown.
I do not know really cause I am single.. marriage is an odd thing to me but why get married if when it all seems to get "old" it isnt worth a darn anymore? just be good friends ro something.
if they have been miserable in a marriage for a very ong time I doubt a divorce will fix anything in their life.
to focus on the kids is ok, but life doesnt end just because you have children nor should the marriage so when they grow up it is an adjustment but just a adjustment to the commintment to be together for life, it isnt about the kids a marriage is it? shouldnt be.
that isnt a marriage in my opinion it is a day
care center with room mates.
about the cuts I get it. if it was about you your ex or soon to be ex was talking you may not want to read all the details and learn. ya know?
I know the changes I've made in my life the past few years were not made with the idea of what would my spouse think? What would he want me to do? They were personal changes.
9whta would hubby think/do) in TWI days, and I still think like that much of the time, mostly about day to day matters.
I consider my thought life, beliefs, interests, all mine. I feel I can get involved in hobbies etc--with in reason, of course. I can't(nor do I want to) spend tons of time and money that the family needs.
'My way or the Highway' wouldn't get me to comply, now. And we had so much of that attitude in TWI, hubby is sick to death of it too.
if a person loves ya wouldnt they want you to grow and find the changes you think ya ned in life?
it would seem to me a person who lovesme would encourage me to do what makes me happy in life.
BUT
if I was married happy even and my spouse needed to move to some place like an empty vocano to study it or something and I would have to live in a hut and never see my family and friends again . that is just selfish and when divorce can happen.
or if they wanted some new freaky sex thing that I didnt want to do come on how far does someone go to keep a marriage happy?
MJ I think you hit on something that I didn't think about. If a person is unhappy in their marriage and they wait until the kids are gone its most likely not the marriage but within themselves that are not happy.
We always tend to look at the grass is always greener on the other side. But when we get to that side sometimes we find that the grass is not greener and may be a little brown.
Agreed Vickles, we are in a new era where there is no shame to divorce.
We are no longer required to stay in a bad marriage and just keep a *stiff upper lip*.
But on the other hand, I feel that it behooves me to try to provide the most wholesom environment for my children to grow up in....and saying that, I feel that is not my right to remove them from the daily presence of their loving father, simply because I would relish my freedom....thus the reason that I think so many wait untill the children are grown before indulging in their own interests and preferences.
You are correct, many spouses DO take care of their spouses and encourage their persuits....but I know others who view any attempt at a hobby or job or activity outside of the home as something that is simply a distraction from their responsibilities....and they deeply resent it.
For goodness sake, I knew a lady in her late 40s that wasn`t allowed by her husband to have a damned dog....40 damned years old and she couldn`t have a friggin dog, or anything else ....I watched her wait on her husband and 18 yr old daughter hand and foot....they expected it, believed it was their due....I was so damned glad when she finally left.
Course the spouse and daughter trashed her mercillessly as a vow breaking sinning heathen.
They were the staunchest of Christians...it blew their minds when one day she finally decided that she just wouldn`t be *bossed* any more.
Its weird. I think the reason I brought up this thread was because I have so many different opinions about this subject and haven't found any one answer. Maybe there isn't.
I had noticed that this is getting big in our country. I wonder if its the same in other countries.
if a person is being shamed as in rascal's example, it doesnt begin when they are fifty , it is a abusive marriage and probably has gotten worse over the years.
dependency issues are common in our culture, it has little to do with turning fifty , it has more to do with the ability to love our self without the fear of making another angry or losing a relationship if a child is raised in a home where love is abusive and has learned these traits as attractive in another they will marry the same and believe it is love. (the only love they learned) some people will rescue others till they die, some will be victims till they die, these ideals are mental helath issues. not getting older and wanting a divorce.
seeking help from childhood abuse then finding out your spouse has the same to offer and you bought it as true love takes time to learn, often a life time.
Unless work is done to heal from past childhood abuse and shame, leaving one relationship does not fix the problem because often the next relationship has the same issues with a different face .
A healthy person understands they can not rescue another, a healthy person allows others to make their own choices in life, a healthy person is not dependent on another for their happiness in life.
dysfunctional families do not teach healthy love they teach dysfunction , just because a person has turned into an adult does not give them a magic wand to fix the wounds from past shame and hurt so they seek the only thing they know as love and family. more dysfuction.
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Cindy!
The steps to grief that vickles posted are very true. One thing to keep in mind,though is that they do not always stay in order or come in clear steps.
Some steps linger through other steps, some steps come out of order for some people.
Whatever way these steps happen to an individual is right for that individual, and if they are getting counseling...noone should ever say that they should be "over" that part by now.
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vickles
I agree, Cindy.
Some people may take little time whereas others may take years to process.
I might add that if you don't go through this process and/or allow yourself to then you are going to take years if ever to heal from your grief.
As grief doesn't have to be that a loved one passed away. It could be a divorce or even a child that moved away and divorced themself from you. There are a lot of reasons why a person is grieving.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
wow achild moving away and divorcing himself from you
that is where i am now and i handled 2 divorces and the loss of my best friend {my Dad} better than i handle this
yes alot of it was my fault
but not all
lova ya jma
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Mod Kirk
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Mod Kirk
Valuable learning? The only thing missing from the thread now is the gossip.
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Radar OReilly
No Mod.......you are not correct in your interpretation.
I am not out to cause trouble here.....just to point out a flaw in reasoning and motivation. One of the parties spilling their guts does not equal gossip. Your personal reaction....THAT is gossip.
Radar
Another lesson to be learned here....if your intention is to minimize attention to a thread, and protect the parties involved...DON'T REMOVE THE THREAD and pretend like nothing happened. If you must, do some editing and then be prepared to take the flak. You remove a thread for any reason, for any length of time, all that is accomplished is to OBVIATE the entire issue.
Go back about 25 pages to the DIVORCE thread started by x70sHouston. That situation was handled with more grace and concern for the individuals involved.
NOW...that said, I don't have a horse in this race...just observations about the careless way this was handled.
ror
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Mod Kirk
I wasn't trying to hide anything. I pulled the thread, and explained why in a new thread. It takes time to go through a thread and weed out offending posts, let alone sentences or words. I was using a meat cleaver and not a scalpel because I didn't have time to go through each post and I wanted to get the thread back up so yall could keep it going, without drawing too much attention to anybodies personal situation.
It's always a judgement call and in my judgement, too many personal details were being dragged in.
We can agree to disagree.
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rascal
I think that many women wait untill they are in their 50s and the children are grown .... feeling that they will have then dispatched their responsibilities......
Sometimes, one realises that they have spent an entire lifetime doing what everyone else wanted.....from having to follow their parents rules as children and teens and then entering marriage, with the spouse insisting on final say in most matters for many years....even the choices we finally DO start making have to be weighed according to impacton the family....
When my children are grown and I am in my mid fifties, freedome to be on my own will be quite enticing.
Nobody to gripe and complain....nobody to squash ambitions, critisize my efforts....I can eat what I want, when I want,
Shoot, maybe it takes 50 years for us to grow in confidence (ie get smart enough) to realise that we are capable, that our dreams are important, that our opinions have merit, and that we live in a country where we have the privledge to live and enjoy life as we see fit.
We are no longer bound by social constraints to remain in a marriage where we are unhappy....
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Jim
I think you need to clarify what you mean. GS has always been a forum where the members could discuss personal issues. If you mean potentially embarassing, sexual issues of a personal nature, I suggest you move the thread to an adults only section instead of moderating.
Whether or not a member discloses personal details on the forums should be left up to the member. Where it is placed should be up to the moderator.
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Mod Kirk
Jim,
Yes at GS personal issues can be discussed anonymously. As soon as names are known, the responsibility shifts. Do you use your last name here? I do not know. If you do, and if your wife used her name too and came here to post "potentially embarrassing, sexual issues of a personal nature" would you want that thread on the Open Forum?
If BOTH of the people want to discuss their sex lives here at GS, fine. But I want to hear from BOTH. Then they can say whatever they want and whoever wants to at GS can give their advice and opinions. But if ONE of them wants any privacy, the moderators will try to make sure they have it. Their names are known. Their situation is known. If they BOTH want it discussed openly here, use the Contact Us feature, or a PM to let me know.
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vickles
Moddishwater, what your talking about personal sexual issues was already taken out by the person who posted it.
I'm not here to complain but I do agree with the others.
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vickles
rascal, I understand what your saying. I think a lot of women do wait until the kids are grown. But the thing is why do women wait so long and stay miserable? In my opinion if its that awful then its making the kids miserable too.
Now, I'm not advocating divorce, in fact I'm more for marriage. But if its that bad then its probably abusive and the pattern goes on and on for generation after generation.
I'm wondering if maybe a lot of it is that when the kids are growing up the whole purpose is about the kids and when the kids are gone they have nothing in common.
I have two kids. My daughter moved out not too long ago. One weekend my son spent with a friend of his.
It was really strange. I looked at my significant other and it was like ok now what do we do? We haven't been together for ten or fifteen years but if we had maybe we wouldn't have been able to work through it.
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Mod Kirk
Well, Vickles, if you are ever the subject of one of these threads, I'll know not to edit it then.
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rascal
Well Vickles, It may not necessarily be a case of *misery*, or of abuse.
It may simply be a lifetime of making choices of what is best for all family members involved.....be that staying together or divorce.
I just know that many chose to wait untill the children are grown.....believing that once this responsibility is fulfilled, that after decades, of putting aside ones dreams and ambitions, that at 50 maybe it is time to focus on ones own desire and personal development.
Sometimes we have spouses that are supportive and take care of us and our needs, that allow and encourage us to grow and explore our interests....sometimes our spouses are oblivious to our suffering, I know some that even activly opposing efforts of their wives to grow.
Maybe after we have spent our entire lives taking care of everyone else, at 50 we decide maybe it is *our* turn.
Many of my friends have gone back to college, or started new hobbies, I am persuing my lifelong goal of studying martial arts, and training horses. Some of my friends are starting businesses.....Many of us are fortunate to have indulgent understanding spouses that encourage and support us, I tend to think that those are the marriages that will make it..... while others of us are stuck with selfish fellows who still believe it should be our sole function to serve them and keep them happy.
I am just trying to give answeres as I see em from my personal experience and those of my friends and family in their 40`s and 50s ....
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vickles
It sounds good to me. After being responsible to a family for years and years it would be kind of nice to think of me every once in a while. So I understand that perspective of it.
But I think the important thing is to take care of ourselves during the time we are taking care of our families. I'm in a support group for parents and the one thing that is really stressed is how important it is to do something for ourselves. Otherwise we might not have anything to give.
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vickles
I don't think I could survive a relationship with a man that would be smothering me and wouldn't want me to grow and change.
I agree with what your saying.
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mj412
I am glad Im single.
everyone seems to think I need to be married to be happy.
but if a couple has been through nearly a life time together and have been in the least sharing of raising the children , money health etc. I do think it is kind of selfish to just change your mind and end what was promised to be a life time thing. Because you want something different or the kids are grown.
I do not know really cause I am single.. marriage is an odd thing to me but why get married if when it all seems to get "old" it isnt worth a darn anymore? just be good friends ro something.
if they have been miserable in a marriage for a very ong time I doubt a divorce will fix anything in their life.
to focus on the kids is ok, but life doesnt end just because you have children nor should the marriage so when they grow up it is an adjustment but just a adjustment to the commintment to be together for life, it isnt about the kids a marriage is it? shouldnt be.
that isnt a marriage in my opinion it is a day
care center with room mates.
about the cuts I get it. if it was about you your ex or soon to be ex was talking you may not want to read all the details and learn. ya know?
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Bramble
I know the changes I've made in my life the past few years were not made with the idea of what would my spouse think? What would he want me to do? They were personal changes.
9whta would hubby think/do) in TWI days, and I still think like that much of the time, mostly about day to day matters.
I consider my thought life, beliefs, interests, all mine. I feel I can get involved in hobbies etc--with in reason, of course. I can't(nor do I want to) spend tons of time and money that the family needs.
'My way or the Highway' wouldn't get me to comply, now. And we had so much of that attitude in TWI, hubby is sick to death of it too.
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mj412
if a person loves ya wouldnt they want you to grow and find the changes you think ya ned in life?
it would seem to me a person who lovesme would encourage me to do what makes me happy in life.
BUT
if I was married happy even and my spouse needed to move to some place like an empty vocano to study it or something and I would have to live in a hut and never see my family and friends again . that is just selfish and when divorce can happen.
or if they wanted some new freaky sex thing that I didnt want to do come on how far does someone go to keep a marriage happy?
obviously I wouldnt know.
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vickles
MJ I think you hit on something that I didn't think about. If a person is unhappy in their marriage and they wait until the kids are gone its most likely not the marriage but within themselves that are not happy.
We always tend to look at the grass is always greener on the other side. But when we get to that side sometimes we find that the grass is not greener and may be a little brown.
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rascal
Agreed Vickles, we are in a new era where there is no shame to divorce.
We are no longer required to stay in a bad marriage and just keep a *stiff upper lip*.
But on the other hand, I feel that it behooves me to try to provide the most wholesom environment for my children to grow up in....and saying that, I feel that is not my right to remove them from the daily presence of their loving father, simply because I would relish my freedom....thus the reason that I think so many wait untill the children are grown before indulging in their own interests and preferences.
You are correct, many spouses DO take care of their spouses and encourage their persuits....but I know others who view any attempt at a hobby or job or activity outside of the home as something that is simply a distraction from their responsibilities....and they deeply resent it.
For goodness sake, I knew a lady in her late 40s that wasn`t allowed by her husband to have a damned dog....40 damned years old and she couldn`t have a friggin dog, or anything else ....I watched her wait on her husband and 18 yr old daughter hand and foot....they expected it, believed it was their due....I was so damned glad when she finally left.
Course the spouse and daughter trashed her mercillessly as a vow breaking sinning heathen.
They were the staunchest of Christians...it blew their minds when one day she finally decided that she just wouldn`t be *bossed* any more.
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vickles
wow that is sad. It is good that women now can have more rights than they used to.
It almost sounds like the twi mentality of how a marriage should work with the husband as the boss and the wife were to serve.
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vickles
Its weird. I think the reason I brought up this thread was because I have so many different opinions about this subject and haven't found any one answer. Maybe there isn't.
I had noticed that this is getting big in our country. I wonder if its the same in other countries.
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mj412
if a person is being shamed as in rascal's example, it doesnt begin when they are fifty , it is a abusive marriage and probably has gotten worse over the years.
dependency issues are common in our culture, it has little to do with turning fifty , it has more to do with the ability to love our self without the fear of making another angry or losing a relationship if a child is raised in a home where love is abusive and has learned these traits as attractive in another they will marry the same and believe it is love. (the only love they learned) some people will rescue others till they die, some will be victims till they die, these ideals are mental helath issues. not getting older and wanting a divorce.
seeking help from childhood abuse then finding out your spouse has the same to offer and you bought it as true love takes time to learn, often a life time.
Unless work is done to heal from past childhood abuse and shame, leaving one relationship does not fix the problem because often the next relationship has the same issues with a different face .
A healthy person understands they can not rescue another, a healthy person allows others to make their own choices in life, a healthy person is not dependent on another for their happiness in life.
dysfunctional families do not teach healthy love they teach dysfunction , just because a person has turned into an adult does not give them a magic wand to fix the wounds from past shame and hurt so they seek the only thing they know as love and family. more dysfuction.
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