I think of us....all of us all over the country, in our cozy little fellowships...feeling all warm and fuzzie ...singing our little songs.....meanwhile at rome city little Lindys and Georgios are having the stew beat out of them ...
I think of how we are all talking after an exciting evening of hearing vp teaching hot bible ....meanwhile... back at the bus the driver is slipping a mickey to some sweet little wow to make it a little easier for her to *minister* to the teacher......
I am thinking of the respect that we gave our bc`s lc`s, who would issue such sound spiritual advice over the phone to us for our enrichment....after we hang up the phone and attempt to enact the sage advice given concerning our family.....he turns around to visciously beat the fire outta the wife because she inadvertantly ****** him off....
I am thinking of the branch and limb meetings where we were rejoicing to hear the *word* taught...believing our children safely esconced in childrens fellowship with a known pedophile.
I am thinking of the children...littl children......their pain and tears wondering where Mom and Dad were...why they are alone in their misery forced to endure the horror of sexual assault ...while we were in the next room...in humble prayer...eagerly participating in manifestations...thrilled to be hearing from God.....
It is hard to hear folks gratefull.... thanking God for twi ...it makes one wonder if God was in twi and so worthey of folks thanks and praise....where in the HELL was God for the ones who`s lives were being destroyed while seeking answeres in twi :-(
Maybe I AM bitter.... I guess that can be one of the effects of betrayal .... guess that I am angry as well...another by product of being at the recieving end of deception.
I just cannot believe that the ministry we promoted, supported financially, supported with our prayer, with our back breaking, life engrossing efforts, witnessed to people, enrolled them in classes.....welcomed them into our homes...provided all of the resources to further their outreach.......all in service to and for God....How could it have all ended up being such a blaspheme against what God should have been all about.
We paid the tab to have these guys inflicted upon the world. I am ashamed.....they sure couldn`t have done it without us :-(
True Hamm... that is an interseting way of viewing it....if ones devistating experience is what it takes to be used to dismantle a dangerous group.....it could be viewed as necessary.
I suppose that this all ties in with wondering if God was ever there at all...(and if not, where was he?) or are we trying to sanitize our experience, believe that god was there in order to still feel like we weren`t wrong....
How can one thank God for some one or something that was so destructive to another of us?
If it was of God, and woprthey of thanks...wouldn`t everyone have benefited?
Is it possible that twi could have warped our whole understanding and perception of God, scriptures, and Christianity?
Do we still remain thankfull and paise God for twi as an introduction to him, as frought with misunderstanding and error as the form of christianity that twi presented?
Why isn`t God able to make himself known in a way that isn`t visciously destructive?
I think He was there, always at least to some extent.. working despite what stupid, evil people were perpetuating.. that's almost the history of religion, to begin with- at least in my opinion. And with God's nature, He's gonna do something good- at least until they "put" HIM "outside of da camp"..
Some of the worst gangsters had wives, families, girlfriends.. and they could exhibit a good side. I think that is what was portrayed to the majority of us.
Those who saw different were harrassed, threatened, and run off. And THEY were the ones portrayed as the bad guys..
No wonder the "outside world" often questions the value of redemption. Gads. If that's what it turns you into, who in their right mind would want it?
"Maybe I am feeling like there is no shame in being good and damned mad any more.
Maybe it is ok to mourn that which was stolen from us....the casualties incurred."
YEAH - RASCAL!!!!!!!!!!! There is no shame in being damned good and mad at those who deceived you, stole from you, hurt you and those you care about. In fact, I'd say its damned healthy.
Don't you EVER AGAIN hold any shame or guilt over caring this much!
Don't you EVER listen to those who would prefer you shut up!
Surely you can imagine what it was like being in twi and trying to get the attention of 'leer'derdhip...and I wrote to every single limb leader in this country...to put a stop to such things...
And do you know what?
It was 2 years after we left Alaska before Rich was convicted.
But I didn't shut up. I didn't back down when a twig leerder sat all night out in front of our apartment building with a gun in his lap. I didn't stop telling anybody and everybody when everybody was pointing at my pregnant belly saying, "You bear a Son of Satan!" or "You whited wall! Outside you're clean, but inside you bear death!" And although terrified the whole time, I didn't shut up when Rich 'prophesied' that if I didn't leave my husband, I'd be dead in 6 months.
The doctrines and commandments of twi and its loyalists are not to be followed at any cost!
And those who would prefer you to shut up or 'get over it' are following the doctrines and commandments of twi.
Just one more thing...
If you shut up...if any of us shut up...and these threads get buried...
What about the parent who comes along not suspecting a thing at all and thinking their child/children have 'spiritual problems' because of their nightmares and/or acting out behavior? What then if you or I or any of us shut up?
When one is going through the wretched journey or grief, s/he finally gets to the place of anger.
When that happens thing begin to make a little bit of sense or at the very least things seem to fit somewhere that can be lived with.
That anger and even often the emotional rage is not a bad thing. This is when we are thinking ALOT, processing that forgotten and coming up with many many 'oh yeah ands' of what happened.
Whether it is the loss of a person, a job, a place or a cult; it's the same basic journey and we finally get to where we can accept that what happened did and the edges get softer, the way to understanding gets less foggy.
Before any of this can happen, we've got to realize that however we have to get there is ok, so long as we get there.
No two grieving people are alike, ever, at all, no matter what a book or another says. Not even the person you walked through all the things together with will grieve as you. That'd be too boring anyway.
There is no rule book or clock on this sucker, either, unfortunately.
Any journey can be one of insight, knowledge, wisdom, understanding; no matter how painful.
When one attempts to thwart this process, either by choice or force, it gets retarded in it's growth and each time we have to start anew. It's less painful in the end to just have stayed on the course from wherever it began and see it through.
Here at Greasespot we have a wealth of information, compassion, understanding, empathy and help right in front of us. Use it.
Understand that also even with this wealth of others that 'get it' some of it has to be traveled alone. Only you know which things you must conquer solo, and again it's not the same for any two.
The point is that it gets done and the way that works for you alone.
Be angry and not ashamed or afraid of it for there is nothing to be ashamed or afraid of in one's journey through it.
We speak of crisis as if it's only a bad thing. Why can't it be a catalyst for change? For growth, for betterment of oneself?
I choose to see crisis as growth, a new season, a challenge that I'm going to meet head on dammit, no matter how I might not want to do it, and find out how I can come out the other end stronger.
We here at GS are made of very strong material that twi tried to shred.
I consider it a mark of growth that I now view my term with Der Veg as part of god's plan for my life. In that I mean He has used it to grow me and prepare me for other things.
I was involved in a home school conference recently and picked up the keynote speaker from the airport. In the course of conversation it came out that I had a background in the Cult of Motorcoach. He's had several exwayfers in his ministry. His comment was "you guys are like the canary in the mine". Meaning, we can 'smell' when things are getting manipulative, controlling & cultish before others have any idea. Hey, we've been there.
Evan, I could not have said it any better. I catch myself seeing things and "hearing" things that no one else notices at first and then all my ex-twi hackles get uppity and then I try to speak gentley regarding that which I detest and I also believe God detests.
Rascal-I think being angry is a very healthy thing and a very useful thing. Scientology believes that you supress all that, TWI believes one should just "Renew their Mind" gag- puke - gag.
Evan,I started "smelling" things at CES two years ago. I don't know how things are going there now, but there was a direction that I just didn't like and although I can't put my finger on one specific problem, there are little things that add up to a repeat of some areas of TWI.
My blood just boils when I think about the faces of those smarmey teachers, up front at the podium......piously spouting the scriptures.....us lapping it up, swooning over the new enlightenment.... meanwhile, these guys are smirking, scanning the audience...scouting out the pretty girls, making a mental checklist for the entertainment later that evening........grrrr
Do you think they ever had any honest compassion or regard for us??? Did they ever really care ....or were we simply a means to an end???
Were we ever viewed as christian brothers and sisters, or simply bodies for the count, a means to get the coffers filled, a sales force to get their product out, their programs filled...?
I should be thanking God, gratefull to the man and ministry that put these predators in the midst of the flock?
I am so tired of people thinking that we *owe* these guys something.
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ex70sHouston
The problems you had in twi are not from God. So much of what came out is not from God.
That being said "Praise God". God is worthy of all our praise.
TWI is not worthy of any praise. I don't want to be in their shoes.
Praise God for his mersy because I need it.
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rascal
I think of us....all of us all over the country, in our cozy little fellowships...feeling all warm and fuzzie ...singing our little songs.....meanwhile at rome city little Lindys and Georgios are having the stew beat out of them ...
I think of how we are all talking after an exciting evening of hearing vp teaching hot bible ....meanwhile... back at the bus the driver is slipping a mickey to some sweet little wow to make it a little easier for her to *minister* to the teacher......
I am thinking of the respect that we gave our bc`s lc`s, who would issue such sound spiritual advice over the phone to us for our enrichment....after we hang up the phone and attempt to enact the sage advice given concerning our family.....he turns around to visciously beat the fire outta the wife because she inadvertantly ****** him off....
I am thinking of the branch and limb meetings where we were rejoicing to hear the *word* taught...believing our children safely esconced in childrens fellowship with a known pedophile.
I am thinking of the children...littl children......their pain and tears wondering where Mom and Dad were...why they are alone in their misery forced to endure the horror of sexual assault ...while we were in the next room...in humble prayer...eagerly participating in manifestations...thrilled to be hearing from God.....
It is hard to hear folks gratefull.... thanking God for twi ...it makes one wonder if God was in twi and so worthey of folks thanks and praise....where in the HELL was God for the ones who`s lives were being destroyed while seeking answeres in twi :-(
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rascal
ex 70s, that is different, I have no problem thanking God v... just not for twi.
That is what I am referring to.
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ex70sHouston
Rascal I'm not thanking God for anything about twi.
I'm thanking God for his mercy and grace for me and maybe you. Did you ever witness to someone and then bring them into the fellowship.
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ex70sHouston
Rascal I now understand what you arew saying. Personaly I wouldn't mind doing a drive by on HQ.
The only reason some people are still alive is because its against the law to kill them.
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rascal
Maybe I AM bitter.... I guess that can be one of the effects of betrayal .... guess that I am angry as well...another by product of being at the recieving end of deception.
I just cannot believe that the ministry we promoted, supported financially, supported with our prayer, with our back breaking, life engrossing efforts, witnessed to people, enrolled them in classes.....welcomed them into our homes...provided all of the resources to further their outreach.......all in service to and for God....How could it have all ended up being such a blaspheme against what God should have been all about.
We paid the tab to have these guys inflicted upon the world. I am ashamed.....they sure couldn`t have done it without us :-(
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Ham
Yep. But I think in a lot of ways, it was a lot like any other scam.. except-
If the SOB's could've just lied low, not bothered or hurt anybody- the scam would be perpeptuated, bigtime, still today. But noooo...
The sad part of all of this is the hurt and destruction that is largely responsable for the "downsizing" of this second rate, two bit cult..
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rascal
Maybe I am feeling like there is no shame in being good and damned mad any more.
Maybe it is ok to mourn that which was stolen from us....the casualties incurred.
I guess for the first time maybe, I am feeling like I don`t HAVE to put a happy face .... see the upside to twi.
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rascal
True Hamm... that is an interseting way of viewing it....if ones devistating experience is what it takes to be used to dismantle a dangerous group.....it could be viewed as necessary.
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rascal
I suppose that this all ties in with wondering if God was ever there at all...(and if not, where was he?) or are we trying to sanitize our experience, believe that god was there in order to still feel like we weren`t wrong....
How can one thank God for some one or something that was so destructive to another of us?
If it was of God, and woprthey of thanks...wouldn`t everyone have benefited?
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rascal
Is it possible that twi could have warped our whole understanding and perception of God, scriptures, and Christianity?
Do we still remain thankfull and paise God for twi as an introduction to him, as frought with misunderstanding and error as the form of christianity that twi presented?
Why isn`t God able to make himself known in a way that isn`t visciously destructive?
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rascal
Will have to change the title of this thread to *Rascal Raving* ....
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Ham
I think He was there, always at least to some extent.. working despite what stupid, evil people were perpetuating.. that's almost the history of religion, to begin with- at least in my opinion. And with God's nature, He's gonna do something good- at least until they "put" HIM "outside of da camp"..
Some of the worst gangsters had wives, families, girlfriends.. and they could exhibit a good side. I think that is what was portrayed to the majority of us.
Those who saw different were harrassed, threatened, and run off. And THEY were the ones portrayed as the bad guys..
No wonder the "outside world" often questions the value of redemption. Gads. If that's what it turns you into, who in their right mind would want it?
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Ham
I thought you were supposed to "rant" first, heh heh.
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Abigail
"Maybe I am feeling like there is no shame in being good and damned mad any more.
Maybe it is ok to mourn that which was stolen from us....the casualties incurred."
YEAH - RASCAL!!!!!!!!!!! There is no shame in being damned good and mad at those who deceived you, stole from you, hurt you and those you care about. In fact, I'd say its damned healthy.
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CoolWaters
rascal,
Don't you EVER stop caring this much!
Don't you EVER AGAIN hold any shame or guilt over caring this much!
Don't you EVER listen to those who would prefer you shut up!
Surely you can imagine what it was like being in twi and trying to get the attention of 'leer'derdhip...and I wrote to every single limb leader in this country...to put a stop to such things...
And do you know what?
It was 2 years after we left Alaska before Rich was convicted.
But I didn't shut up. I didn't back down when a twig leerder sat all night out in front of our apartment building with a gun in his lap. I didn't stop telling anybody and everybody when everybody was pointing at my pregnant belly saying, "You bear a Son of Satan!" or "You whited wall! Outside you're clean, but inside you bear death!" And although terrified the whole time, I didn't shut up when Rich 'prophesied' that if I didn't leave my husband, I'd be dead in 6 months.
The doctrines and commandments of twi and its loyalists are not to be followed at any cost!
And those who would prefer you to shut up or 'get over it' are following the doctrines and commandments of twi.
Just one more thing...
If you shut up...if any of us shut up...and these threads get buried...
What about the parent who comes along not suspecting a thing at all and thinking their child/children have 'spiritual problems' because of their nightmares and/or acting out behavior? What then if you or I or any of us shut up?
You go girl!!!!!
Rock on!!!!!!
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Shellon
When one is going through the wretched journey or grief, s/he finally gets to the place of anger.
When that happens thing begin to make a little bit of sense or at the very least things seem to fit somewhere that can be lived with.
That anger and even often the emotional rage is not a bad thing. This is when we are thinking ALOT, processing that forgotten and coming up with many many 'oh yeah ands' of what happened.
Whether it is the loss of a person, a job, a place or a cult; it's the same basic journey and we finally get to where we can accept that what happened did and the edges get softer, the way to understanding gets less foggy.
Before any of this can happen, we've got to realize that however we have to get there is ok, so long as we get there.
No two grieving people are alike, ever, at all, no matter what a book or another says. Not even the person you walked through all the things together with will grieve as you. That'd be too boring anyway.
There is no rule book or clock on this sucker, either, unfortunately.
Any journey can be one of insight, knowledge, wisdom, understanding; no matter how painful.
When one attempts to thwart this process, either by choice or force, it gets retarded in it's growth and each time we have to start anew. It's less painful in the end to just have stayed on the course from wherever it began and see it through.
Here at Greasespot we have a wealth of information, compassion, understanding, empathy and help right in front of us. Use it.
Understand that also even with this wealth of others that 'get it' some of it has to be traveled alone. Only you know which things you must conquer solo, and again it's not the same for any two.
The point is that it gets done and the way that works for you alone.
Be angry and not ashamed or afraid of it for there is nothing to be ashamed or afraid of in one's journey through it.
We speak of crisis as if it's only a bad thing. Why can't it be a catalyst for change? For growth, for betterment of oneself?
I choose to see crisis as growth, a new season, a challenge that I'm going to meet head on dammit, no matter how I might not want to do it, and find out how I can come out the other end stronger.
We here at GS are made of very strong material that twi tried to shred.
They didn't succeed. We did!
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TheEvan
I consider it a mark of growth that I now view my term with Der Veg as part of god's plan for my life. In that I mean He has used it to grow me and prepare me for other things.
I was involved in a home school conference recently and picked up the keynote speaker from the airport. In the course of conversation it came out that I had a background in the Cult of Motorcoach. He's had several exwayfers in his ministry. His comment was "you guys are like the canary in the mine". Meaning, we can 'smell' when things are getting manipulative, controlling & cultish before others have any idea. Hey, we've been there.
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Shellon
Amen! This is very true and I'm very glad another recognized it.
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rascal
it`s referred to here in our household as our finely tuned *bull ****ometer*
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DaddyHoundog
Evan, I could not have said it any better. I catch myself seeing things and "hearing" things that no one else notices at first and then all my ex-twi hackles get uppity and then I try to speak gentley regarding that which I detest and I also believe God detests.
Rascal-I think being angry is a very healthy thing and a very useful thing. Scientology believes that you supress all that, TWI believes one should just "Renew their Mind" gag- puke - gag.
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wwjesuslaughat
Evan,I started "smelling" things at CES two years ago. I don't know how things are going there now, but there was a direction that I just didn't like and although I can't put my finger on one specific problem, there are little things that add up to a repeat of some areas of TWI.
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rascal
My blood just boils when I think about the faces of those smarmey teachers, up front at the podium......piously spouting the scriptures.....us lapping it up, swooning over the new enlightenment.... meanwhile, these guys are smirking, scanning the audience...scouting out the pretty girls, making a mental checklist for the entertainment later that evening........grrrr
Do you think they ever had any honest compassion or regard for us??? Did they ever really care ....or were we simply a means to an end???
Were we ever viewed as christian brothers and sisters, or simply bodies for the count, a means to get the coffers filled, a sales force to get their product out, their programs filled...?
I should be thanking God, gratefull to the man and ministry that put these predators in the midst of the flock?
I am so tired of people thinking that we *owe* these guys something.
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rascal
Snort...how`s THAT for being a venom filled, hersey speaking, ever evil thinking, perpetual victim...lol
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