Mr. Hammeroni, it occurs to me that most of these women actually wanted to have the abortions to stay in the corps, or didn't really want to be mothers, or didn't look on these abortions as an evil thing.
That is a false assumption oldies....I wouldn`t have fled the first time if it had been what I wanted...
I talked with a lady last night who fled her first appointment as well...when she was taken back, it had been arranged to knock her out with drugs for the procedure.
What you say may have been true for some....but nearly everyone I have talked to was forced by twi to choose between the fetus and God.
The fact that myself and at least 4 others that I personally know of were forced to chose between God and our fetus..... that twi paid for two of these *procedures* that I personally know of.... is way to damn many.
It was a lie....God did not require the death of the babies.
This is about the force twi used to assure compliance...
Oldies you seem to want to obscure this point by once again misrepresenting the experiences of the many posters have related here in a variety of different situations....and instead making it a *rascal is just pouting and needs to suck it up thread*....
There is ample evidence here that the twisting of scriptures and invoking the name of God were sop to ensure our implicit obedience.
I was to help my BC take a twenty something girl to get an abortion, because she got pregnant with her fiance's baby.
They both attended fellowship, 1 was Adv grad I believe.
Our leadership said " they were not ready to have a baby, no way are they mature enough and not married yet." Mind you they were in their early 20's.(not 15)
Anyway, we went into clinic after clinic to see who would NOT talk to her about "other" alternatives other than abortion. Even the evil planned parenthood wasn't about to just rip it out of her tummy!!!
My BC would storm out of each clinic as soon as they said, "well are you sure, how bout adoption? You need some more counseling.."
The girl was so confused, my BC was mean and livid with the clinics and telling them "I am her minister and she needs an abortion, and don't even mention anything else!!"
I bet that confused the hell out of them...
So no, she had no gun to her head, but shesure felt that way from leadership don't ya think?
The girl was so upset and stressed she ended up with a miscarriage. :(-->
I am livid to this day.
Of course the miscarriage was a "see, God knew all along that this was wrong, blah blah....".
I had an abortion. NOt becase of TWI but when I was in college.
I got drunk, and I woke up the next morning in a friends bed. He looked at me and I looked at him and we both just cringed. When we found out that I was pregnant--we decided that Abortion was the best idea.
For purely selfish reasons I might add
(although I in NO WAY assume or think that the abortions others underwent were for selfish reasons I merely am stating my bit of history here.)
I know in my heart of hearts it was a boy
In my mind I call him DAvid
he would have been 33 this past month (August)
I ache inside for the loss of him
I know that he waits with Heavenly FAther for me to arrive
I know that there will be a reunion
Still even though I know this to be true, the loss still dwells inside
I dunno. In any other context.. a spiritual COUNSELOR who claimed to be a servant of Almighty God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and using their authority over you to DEMAND of you to go to doctor "doom"..
at least, they'd be consider NUTSO. Or just another counterfiet.
Can't go beyond what you're taught.. the old slickster was right about that one. But look at who was teaching, and leading us- ptooie.
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CM
...
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oldiesman
CM, it's ok to use words as a form of communication.
:D-->
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CM
Yeah....a little ****ing different when the barrel of the gun is right square between your eyes and the trigger is pulled huh!
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oldiesman
CM, I don't know what you're talking about, but if you finally get to your point, it may be interesting.
Please proceed.
:)-->
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CM
you're a liar
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CM
or should i say you are lieing or just plain dense
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CM
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CM
was it right oldies?
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oldiesman
I'm sleepy.
When CM gets to the point, please give me a hollar.
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rascal
That is a false assumption oldies....I wouldn`t have fled the first time if it had been what I wanted...
I talked with a lady last night who fled her first appointment as well...when she was taken back, it had been arranged to knock her out with drugs for the procedure.
What you say may have been true for some....but nearly everyone I have talked to was forced by twi to choose between the fetus and God.
The fact that myself and at least 4 others that I personally know of were forced to chose between God and our fetus..... that twi paid for two of these *procedures* that I personally know of.... is way to damn many.
It was a lie....God did not require the death of the babies.
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rascal
This is about the force twi used to assure compliance...
Oldies you seem to want to obscure this point by once again misrepresenting the experiences of the many posters have related here in a variety of different situations....and instead making it a *rascal is just pouting and needs to suck it up thread*....
There is ample evidence here that the twisting of scriptures and invoking the name of God were sop to ensure our implicit obedience.
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bliss
No gun, but try this on for size....
I was to help my BC take a twenty something girl to get an abortion, because she got pregnant with her fiance's baby.
They both attended fellowship, 1 was Adv grad I believe.
Our leadership said " they were not ready to have a baby, no way are they mature enough and not married yet." Mind you they were in their early 20's.(not 15)
Anyway, we went into clinic after clinic to see who would NOT talk to her about "other" alternatives other than abortion. Even the evil planned parenthood wasn't about to just rip it out of her tummy!!!
My BC would storm out of each clinic as soon as they said, "well are you sure, how bout adoption? You need some more counseling.."
The girl was so confused, my BC was mean and livid with the clinics and telling them "I am her minister and she needs an abortion, and don't even mention anything else!!"
I bet that confused the hell out of them...
So no, she had no gun to her head, but shesure felt that way from leadership don't ya think?
The girl was so upset and stressed she ended up with a miscarriage.
:(-->
I am livid to this day.
Of course the miscarriage was a "see, God knew all along that this was wrong, blah blah....".
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Ham
With "ministers" like that, we don't even NEED a devil, do we..
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templelady
I had an abortion. NOt becase of TWI but when I was in college.
I got drunk, and I woke up the next morning in a friends bed. He looked at me and I looked at him and we both just cringed. When we found out that I was pregnant--we decided that Abortion was the best idea.
For purely selfish reasons I might add
(although I in NO WAY assume or think that the abortions others underwent were for selfish reasons I merely am stating my bit of history here.)
I know in my heart of hearts it was a boy
In my mind I call him DAvid
he would have been 33 this past month (August)
I ache inside for the loss of him
I know that he waits with Heavenly FAther for me to arrive
I know that there will be a reunion
Still even though I know this to be true, the loss still dwells inside
OM your cavalier dismissal of these women's pain
ill becomes you
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oldiesman
I never dismissed their pain.
But, their pain is really irrelevant to the argument of whether they had a choice to make decisions or not, which is what this topic covers.
Please read what I wrote in the context it was written.
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Ham
Its bad enough of an experience at its BEST..
That a spiritual "counsellor" would badger you to no end to have it done, goes beyond despicable.
COUNSELLORS. "Oh but no, we were just fellow believers.."
Don't think that defense would pan out very much.. the people barking the orders were TRAINED.
I can almost hear the damn "doctor", "Won't hurt a bit. A few minutes, and it all will be over.."
Tell these ladies that.. even twenty years later.
And for a "minister of the lord jesus christ" to DEMAND such to be done, well, I don't have harsh enough words for this.
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rascal
the context of what you wrote was that the women
A) REALLY wanted the abortion
B) It was a noble thing to do in light of our commitment to God
C) TWI was doing us a favor
All of which has nothing to do with being pressured to chose between God or our baby.
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rascal
(((mo)) I am sorry, I understand...
I never thought of my child being there when I get there....how do you apologise for a thing like that?
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oldiesman
What you did would be like me surmising that you worship fetuses, but that wouldn't be fair and might be a misrepresentation of your position.
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Ham
I dunno. In any other context.. a spiritual COUNSELOR who claimed to be a servant of Almighty God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and using their authority over you to DEMAND of you to go to doctor "doom"..
at least, they'd be consider NUTSO. Or just another counterfiet.
Can't go beyond what you're taught.. the old slickster was right about that one. But look at who was teaching, and leading us- ptooie.
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oldiesman
I've done enough arguing for one day.
Have a nice weekend folks.
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rascal
Thanks (((Mr.Hamm))) you *get* it.
It wasn`t about abortion right or wrong or what we wanted or what God needed.
It was about a minister/councelor commanding that it be so.
To disobey was unthinkable........ing off God was a whole lot scarier prospect than a loaded gun pointed at our heads.
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CM
Open Eyes
In the beginning my eyes were closed
No light got in to change my views
I'd heard every word people had to say
But I never listened and was doomed to stay
Happiness is what I thought I had
But deep down I knew the truth is this
I was lost in a world where I had settled
Settled for what I had, but had nothing at all
I wondered if I would ever find true joy again
Life outside my dark world, I had forgotten
I had forgotten what happiness was
What I had thought to be a form of happiness
My blurred version of the truth was far from
I was stuck in-between the past and the future
Looking back on what I've done, but
Could not get away to save my life
Seeing no hope in sight I had begun to give up
I would give in to what I loved and feared the most
I thought I wanted the love I thought I had
But this loved I feared more than a gun to my head
I had almost convinced myself that I wanted it
The truth I could not see, life was over for me
As I walked towards the cliff where I would end it all
Just then my blurred truth began to become clear
The brightest light I had ever seen lit up all around me
My eyes opened and I saw the world as everyone else did
This fate I had thought was mine
I had the power to change it, and choose my own path
I step away from this edge where my life could have ended
I now walk away into this new light I have found
Searching and hoping for what is true happiness
And I feel I will find it here
I venture in with eyes wide open
Never to have them closed again
By shaw, age 18
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Shellon
You don't Rascal, you don't have to. You and so many others did what you had/have to do.
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