Revelation???

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I'm posting this on the "About The Way" forum even though it overlaps somewhat into a "Not About The Way" conversation...mainly because most of us were taught about "revelation" from twi.

I have a question...

...How come none of these hot shot preachers (Including twi leaders) on TV and elsewhere never get the "revelation" when it could really do some good? Such as the disaster of 9/11...or hurricane Katrina? Thousands of lives lost and the only "revelation" that Benny Hinn ever gets is that there's some guy in the audience that is supposed to donate $1000 to his ministry.

These guys are constantly spouting off how "the Lord told me today blah blah blah..." but when 9/11 happened they were as surprised as everybody else!

Could it be that they are so full of .... that they're eyes are brown???

[oldiesman]

As I remember correctly, according to twi teaching, we "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" and if a cookie is there it is "available".

But what you ask transcends even twi.

Why no forwarnings about these events?

I do not think anyone has the complete answer yet.

[Ham]

The reason they DON'T get this kind of revelation, in my opinion, is because they DON'T HAVE "revelation" to begin with..

I've seen the most stupid, mundane stuff passed off as "revelation"..

"Somebody in the audience, somebody in the audience out there in TV land.. I see you have a broken leg.."

No friggin kidding.. probably a couple hundred for that matter.. lets be a little more "specific"!

Still.. some poor sucker- probably more than one- is out there jumping up and down, shouting "hallelujah" ..

Until he lands on the broken leg..

I think they can't see the greater- and the fact that they can't "see" the lesser only confirms it..

[rascal]

Why no forwarnings about these events?

I do not think anyone has the complete answer yet.

Oh I don`t know, I think Groucho`s surmise of them being completely full of sh1t has merrit :P

I mean look at how well vp`s revelation about who should take charge of the ministry turned out :lol: ......my my wasn`t THAT an outstanding example of Godly revelation????

beta? full time corpes? word over the world? roflmao

All outstanding examples of that in depth spiritual perception and awareness that twi nurtured in it`s leaders....

I know that *I* am impressed ;)

[oldiesman]

... I mean look at how well vp`s revelation about who should take charge of the ministry turned out :lol: ......my my wasn`t THAT an outstanding example of Godly revelation???? ...

Well, had it been someone else other than LCM in charge and the same happened, you'd probably say the same thing.

VP selecting LCM didn't guarantee that LCM (or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't blow it badly.

No man can guarantee the actions of another.

And besides, everyone makes mistakes.

Try to look at the big picture here. This question transcends twi. Why NOBODY gets warned about these fatal events ...

Bible says they will happen, and that's about all we humans have right now ...

[dmiller]

As I remember correctly, according to twi teaching, we "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" and if a cookie is there it is "available".

Well, had it been someone else other than LCM in charge and the same happened, you'd probably say the same thing.

VP selecting LCM didn't guarantee that LCM (or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't blow it badly.

No man can guarantee the actions of another.

And besides, everyone makes mistakes.

Guess that when docvic reached for the cookie jar, it was empty, eh?

[bliss]

If God is still God, than He will ALWAYS make a way to escape.

I think God does "warn" people from escaping a potential tragedy.

Remember Samuel? He "heard" the Lord's voice mistaking it for Eli's at first.

He hadn't recognized God's voice to him yet.

I think God talks to us when we are listening (peaceful, calm,)in that still small voice.

John 10:27

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

John 8:47 "He that is of God heareth God's instructions......"

I know a few people who were "supposed to be" at the World Trade Center that fateful day.

For some reason (God's voice) they didn't go.

Now, I feel that many were God's children that perished that day, but how many of them were "listening".

I know, easier said than done.

But it has to be available, then why believe in God at all?

If I am his child, I have to believe He will be there for me.

I ask myself that daily. There are many days that I too could be full of ear wax, and walking where the Lord does NOT want me to go...

That could have been any of us, so I just pray and trust HIM to lead my steps, and ever watchful that I am listening.

As for the preachers, well, they would have to be "prophets", and most probably aren't . Fruit . Look at the fruit.

Unless they can save the EVERYBODY in the situation (and most wouldn' t believe them in the first place), then why bother.

I thought that God works in us, first.

Just my two sense..........my opinion.

[Ham]

Yeah.. if the cookie jar is empty, I guess all that's left is to grab at straws..

I still think God works in us though.. but in my opinion.. I think its far more subtle than the "all nine all the time" kind of stuff we were taught.. and many times more "earth shaking" than that.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Mr. Hammeroni

[oldiesman]

Guess that when docvic reached for the cookie jar, it was empty, eh?

Not necessarily.

There may have been a cookie there.

LCM may well have been God's choice.

But God choosing someone doesn't necessarily mean that person will walk worthy of the vocation.

Edited October 4, 2005 by oldiesman

[dmiller]

Bliss -- good points. And sadly it is those who purport to speak to God (or have God speak to them), who are most lacking . :(

Yea --- fruit. You either have it, or you don't.

[Belle]

Anyone I know worth their salt doesn't use telling people they got revelation from God to promote themselves, they just act on whatever "revelation" they receive.

And, true, Bliss, God is supposed to work in us first, but think about how bad TWI got and how if you said God told you something, but leadership disagreed with it, they would tell you God told THEM the opposite or they'd just flat out tell you to do what they wanted you to do. Then they further took control by telling you that even if it was "bad" direction that God would cover because you were "obeying leadership" like you're supposed to do according to Hebrews and Romans.

[bliss]

That is why you obey God rather than men!!

I will then take full responsibility if I blow it. Never allowing condemnation or guilt or "pressure" from anyone. Had enough of that, thanks.

I did reconsider my comments on Prophets though.......weren't they used to warn people of "their sin, and to turn to God"?

I don't think they are used to say "don't go on the airplane today".

Let's face it, tragedy happens all day, every day to people. If God is no respector of persons,

then it wouldn't be fair if he "warned people" (as a group) to not go to the WTC, but didn't "warn" you of the Semi truck that was going to run you over.

I mean even Joseph didn't warn people of the famine. He interpreted a dream, got the top dog job, and prepared for the tragedy. The famine WAS COMING, only Joseph took head to eventually save the children of Isreal from dying out.

bliss

[Ham]

Belle, even thinking about that old stuff is getting me dizzy.. :D

[templelady]

"it rains on ythe Just and the unjust alike"

Same with any natural phenomenon.

GOd may very well have given specific revelation to individuls

I remember seeing that there was one weather analyst who was warning for a week before the storm hit EXACTLY what was going to happen and he was ignored

So GOD did give warning through a weather analyst (and who better to speak about weather.)

I support spritual revelation belive in it--BUt we don't live in a vacuum.

If you've been dicussing for generations about what would happen when the "Big ONE" hit NO. and you see the 'big one' headed your way and don't spring into action -can't lay that on GOD. He did warn by giving the men who needed the knowledge about the levee system the ability to find the facts and figures and act on them. The fact that said Men chose to ignore said facts isn't God's fault,

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Not necessarily.

There may have been a cookie there.

LCM may well have been God's choice.

But God choosing someone doesn't necessarily mean that person will walk worthy of the vocation.

Oh, I get it now...God, in His infinite wisdom, with foreknowledge...decided to choose a LOSER!

This guy is gonna go off the deep end, sexually abuse women and run the whole thing into the ground!...I choose him!

Makes sense to me. B)

[TheInvisibleDan]

I have a question...

...How come none of these hot shot preachers (Including twi leaders) on TV and elsewhere never get the "revelation" when it could really do some good?

Such much sought "revelation" may indeed be "just a thought away", -of course, from getting any at all...

:blink:

Edited October 5, 2005 by TheInvisibleDan

[TheInvisibleDan]

Oh, I get it now...God, in His infinite wisdom, with foreknowledge...decided to choose a LOSER!

This guy is gonna go off the deep end, sexually abuse women and run the whole thing into the ground!...I choose him!

Makes sense to me. B)

But doesn't this reflect also one of the more profound enigmas of Christianity?

Its scriptures proudly proclaim it the religion

of lowlifes and losers

and scumbags and perverts

of murderers and sluts

and liars and fools

of dimwits, morons and dingbats.

(Hey, as Ted would croon - That's "God's Way People")

Didn't God choose these to confound the Wise, the Scribe?

No one would choose this human garbage in a million years -

but the Supreme God did.

The healthy have no need of the physician.

Jesus didn't come for the pious, the righteous -

He preferred the aforementioned "sinners",

the filthy rejects, the weasles, and offscouring of the world.

The folks He picked for disciples were a thick-headed, dark-hearted, dumb-foot lot.

One disciple denied Him, another even betrayed Him.

Even while He was on earth, and long after His "Resurrection" the disciples

were (still) bickering in rivalry amongst themselves and their respective movements.

Why the hell did Jesus pick such a bunch of losers?

Yet they did spread His message, despite themselves, and despite their perversions made to His Gospel, often made for their own glory and profit.

Think about it - the epistles that comprise a hefty portion of the NT

are attributed to one who took particular pleasure

in persecuting this new cult and (some say) murdering its members,

prior to falling off his horse and bumping his head on a rock on that fateful, gravelly road

to Damascus (according to the "Acts" legend).

It's one of the enigmas of Christianity, Groucho.

Danny

Edited October 5, 2005 by TheInvisibleDan

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Yeah....and we all love enigmas...

...maybe that's why it's so much fun watching rats, frantically run through a maze, trying to find that elusive cheese. :blink:

[oldiesman]

Oh, I get it now...God, in His infinite wisdom, with foreknowledge...decided to choose a LOSER!

This guy is gonna go off the deep end, sexually abuse women and run the whole thing into the ground!...I choose him!

Makes sense to me. B)

Yep. It's possible.

To mention a biblical example, Samuel got revelation to anoint Saul as king, even tho later Saul crapped out badly. God knew this by foreknowledge, yet STILL told Samuel to anoint him. Why? Because at the time, Saul was the best man for the job. Even tho Saul did great evil, there would have been EVEN GREATER evil had anyone else been anointed.

And so IF Craig was appointed by revelation....ditto.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

[Outin88.]

Yep. It's possible.

To mention a biblical example, Samuel got revelation to anoint Saul as king, even tho later Saul crapped out badly. God knew this by foreknowledge, yet STILL told Samuel to anoint him. Why? Because at the time, Saul was the best man for the job. Even tho Saul did great evil, there would have been EVEN GREATER evil had anyone else been anointed.

And so IF Craig was appointed by revelation....ditto.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility.

You have a point Oldies.

Personally, I question whether Wierwille ever got revelation from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Though it's possible. I think he may have chosen Martindale because he was college educated, had coordinated the Way Corps, had ability to speak publicly, and because he was a brown nose.

On the one hand, I'm gald Martindale was his choice, had he picked someone stronger, who wasn't an adulterer, we might all still be involved with that cult. But on the other hand, I'm sad so many got hurt because of Martindale and his reign of terror.

So yes, it's possible God gave Wierwille revelation to select Martindale, but I highly doubt it.

[GarthP2000]

But doesn't this reflect also one of the more profound enigmas of Christianity? ....

(etc., etc., ... portraying the examples of said ((cough)) 'enigma') ...

It's one of the enigmas of Christianity, Groucho.

Hhmmmmm, and yet this belief system, with all of its enigmas (that supposedly portray God's wisdom of 'confounding the wise with the foolish', so to speak), is one where, if someone does not accept said enigma'd belief system, they wind up in the flames of hell. Never mind whatever reasonable and valid complaints about the aforementioned enigmas might be made by the unbelievers when they don't join.

"Join my group of flawed, controlling, browbeat---err, uhm, 'emigmatic' church ... or burn, infidel!"

Yah! :blink: I can see THAT on a (ahem) 'green card'. Indeed I can.

:unsure:

Edited October 5, 2005 by GarthP2000

[oldiesman]

Personally, I question whether Wierwille ever got revelation from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Though it's possible.

I personally believe he did.

Not because I believe he was anything special or anything like that at all. To the contrary, he highly blew it in many ways. Just that twi was once a great place to be and many folks needed it at the time. The sweet fellowships; joy and peace with God; comfort in knowing God is alive and loves you always; an ever abiding assurance that the bible makes sense and has authority and reliability; knowing that you know you are God's son, sealed with holy spirit; etc. etc.

These happenings are the fruit of a godly connection.

They are the manifestation of God being at work in and with people.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

well i think if old vic recieve revy

which i doubt

when he reached into daddies cookie jar he sure got a stale one when he picked martinpuke

Edited October 5, 2005 by coolchef1248 @adelphia.net

[TheInvisibleDan]

Hhmmmmm, and yet this belief system, with all of its enigmas (that supposedly portray God's wisdom of 'confounding the wise with the foolish', so to speak), is one where, if someone does not accept said enigma'd belief system, they wind up in the flames of hell. Never mind whatever reasonable and valid complaints about the aforementioned enigmas might be made by the unbelievers when they don't join.

"Join my group of flawed, controlling, browbeat---err, uhm, 'emigmatic' church ... or burn, infidel!"

Yah! :blink: I can see THAT on a (ahem) 'green card'. Indeed I can.

:unsure:

(lol) Nah, you screwed up bigger than that, Garth. If you confessed "Jesus is Lord" even once in your life,

your soul is assured a spot on Jesus' loser train.

Which means, you'll be debating "fiscal conservatives" (cough, cough) for all eternity.

Ain't God great?

:)

Edited October 5, 2005 by TheInvisibleDan

[templelady]

WIthout getting into a discussion as to whether VPW actually received revelation

I submit that it is possible to receive revelation and

A- Ignore it

B- accept only bits and pieces of it

C- add to and change it to YOUR satisfaction

D- a combination of all or some of the above