W.O.W. Ambassadors

[oldiesman]

Doing the Word can be risky.

If the Christian had been beaten and

robbed for following those orders,

the Christian STILL wasn't to be blamed

for needed to pull a miracle from their pocket.

That's fair enough and I don't advocate blaming them or condemning them, but nor should the program be condemned.

Maybe we should access blame where it belongs, on the actual perpetrator of the crime.

[WordWolf]

And had Cowgirl acted on the revelation she received from God, not to talk with that guy, it would have been entirely to her credit, for acting upon God's warning.

But, the program told people to IGNORE anything telling them not to

speak-which means the program taught to IGNORE REVELATION.

GOD was trying to keep her away from trouble,

but FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS got her IN IT.

(DUH. )

But, does that mean the WOW program was wrong for asking her to preach the Word?

If that's the case, Mark 16:15 is wrong.

FALSE DILEMMA.

"Either she should never preach the Word, or the WOW program was correct!"

WRONG.

The situation is NOT as overly-simplistic as the program/Oldiesman makes it.

Jesus himself spoke to SOME people and occasionally not others.

You're a fan of vpw.

Have you not ever heard him preach about the man at the Temple Gate Beautiful?

The man was lain at the gate EVERY DAY.

Jesus entered that gate and didn't minister to him.

Why not?

According to your over-simplification,

the man who gave the command in Mark 16:15 was a hypocrite for failing

to uphold it himself!

HOWEVER,

even vpw found a smarter answer: no revelation to speak to him.

Therefore,

not EVERYONE should be spoken to at EVERY time and EVERY place.

HOWEVER,

the WOW program taught the opposite.

If it was more than just one or 2 pep-talks,

and it didn't just accept "anyone with money",

it would have been easy to cover the usage of revelation as determining

WHO and WHERE and WHEN.

It did NOT because the program insufficiently prepared its entrants.

She SHOULD have listened to God-which she KNEW

She was TOLD to IGNORE GOD- so eventually she did.

(The instructions of the program were going to get her beaten, robbed, whatever.)

Cowgirl was enough of a heavyweight that she and God got her out

of that problem DESPITE THE WOW PROGRAM.

Can you see it NOW?

Should the WOW program be blamed if something ungodly happened to her?

Depends.

If she was FOLLOWING ORDERS TO THE LETTER, and something ungodly

happened as a DIRECT RESULT OF THOSE ORDERS,

then YES, THOSE ORDERS-AND THE PROGRAM THEREOF-

are TO BE BLAMED.

How difficult is it to see that?

Well, if she hadn't gone out WOW, it might not have happened to her, true enough.

No, it was the DIRECT RESULT of WHERE she was sent and HOW she was

to conduct herself.

It WOULD NOT have happened had she not gone.

She would neither have been in the wrong place,

nor following dumbass instructions given by dumbasses.

On the other hand, maybe it could have happened elsewhere.

ELSEWHERE she wouldn't have been starting conversations with

unstable individuals.

She was listening for God's warnings UNTIL THE WOW PROGRAM

SAID NOT TO.

She said so.

Please PAY ATTENTION.

In that event, who do you blame?

Since it doesn't happen, there's no blame to assign.

[WordWolf]

Doing the Word can be risky.

So can being a f*ing moron,

or following the orders of a f*ing moron,

or "following orders" when the orders were unsafe.

Ask the Jonestown people how risky it was following orders,

or the "Heaven's Gate" people chasing that comet.

WordWolf said

If the Christian had been beaten and robbed for following those orders,

[of the program],

the Christian STILL wasn't to be blamed for needing to pull a miracle from

their pocket.

Oldiesman said

That's fair enough and I don't advocate blaming them or condemning them, but nor should the program be condemned.

If the orders OF the program, followed CORRECTLY,

got someone robbed or beaten,

the orders were WRONG and thus the program was WRONG.

Thus, whoever allowed LIVES to be THREATENED by this turkey

authorized a bad program, which is worthy to be condemned.

Maybe we should access blame where it belongs, on the actual perpetrator of the crime.

Well DUUUUUUUHHH.

Of course the CRIMINAL is to blame-LARGELY.

Put him in jail, duh.

But setting someone up to be a target FOR a criminal is wrong,

and any program that does that is to be blamed.

The WOW program set Cowgirl up to be robbed/beaten/whatever.

(Unintentionally set up, but ignorance and stupidity of the

consequences of their training is NOT an excuse.

They trained her to be LESS safe than she normally was.

"Grow 10 years?" They set her BACK.)

[GrouchoMarxJr]

And had Cowgirl acted on the revelation she received from God, not to talk with that guy, it would have been entirely to her credit, for acting upon God's warning.

But, does that mean the WOW program was wrong for asking her to preach the Word?

If that's the case, Mark 16:15 is wrong.

Should the WOW program be blamed if something ungodly happened to her?

Well, if she hadn't gone out WOW, it might not have happened to her, true enough.

On the other hand, maybe it could have happened elsewhere.

In that event, who do you blame?

Hold the phone right there!...

...Oldies, how the hell do you conclude that Cowgirl had received revelation from God? I totally reject your assumption and can only assume that it is your "waybrain" slipping out through your teeth again. The world is full of crazy people who believe that "Gawd speaks to them"...This concept is the basis for untold miseries heaped upon mankind. You live in a delusional world that is both dangerous and stupid. If a person hollered "Be gone in the name of Hank", loud enough, they would probably get the same results...ask Sudo about Hank.

[oldiesman]

I would suggest a BETTER PROGRAM.

( DUH. )

Looking at something in hindsight, with a critique toward improvement, is one thing, and quite honorable.

But all I seem to see from you is a view toward destruction of anything twi related.

Do you really have a heart to see a BETTER TWI?

Or have it destroyed?

[WordWolf]

Another way you might want to look at it is something like a baseball team you're fond of, winning the world series. Individual players help win the world series, and should be thanked, but it's also good that there's an organization there as part of the team that put the winning team together.

This may come as news to you,

but baseball teams in the National or American Leagues (thus eligible to win the World Series)

do NOT get players by

just accepting whoever shows up.

They accept only the top applicants in potential and TRAINING

before they even open their door to applicants.

Thus, a "draft pick" has shown skill in high school and college,

with years of training and practice, and a proven track record.

That's completely DIFFERENT from the wow program.

Once an applicant is accepted,

the applicant is then paid a huge salary,

and is put thru day after day,

week after week,

month after month,

of TRAINING.

That's completely DIFFERENT from the wow program.

So, they really do "put a team together".

The wow program recruits with methods more closely

resembling jury duty.

You are almost selected at random,

you open your mail,

and say "I have to go serve!"

[Belle]

Yep, Oldies - you do do always blame the victim and maintain that TWI has never done any wrong. Do you think we're stupid or have bad memories? Most of us have been around here long enough to see you bend over backwards protecting your precious TWIts. It's sick and one day you are going to have a very rude awakening.

If the people running the program knew that it was a dangerous neighborhood, and there's a probability that someone would get hurt, but sent them anyway, then yeah, you lay blame on the people making the decision.

"The people" running the program SHOULD HAVE KNOWN where they were sending people and if it was dangerous or not.

"The people" running the program SHOULD HAVE KNOWN they had pedophiles in their program.

"The people" running the program SHOULD HAVE KNOWN who was not stable enough to go on such an assignment.

"The people" running the program SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the shenanigans and abuse going on.

"The people" running the program SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT MORE INVOLVED, KNOWLEDGEABLE AND LESS ARROGANT.

"The people" running the program SHOULD HAVE REALLY BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELL BEING OF "THEIR PEOPLE".

Yah, they're to blame!! They were unprepared, ignorant, lazy, uncaring, unconcerned and generally irresponsible with people's lives. I just don't see how you can continue to justify TWI's actions or lack thereof.

Rico and Rosie should be calling you any day now to hire you for the "Spin Control" department.

[WordWolf]

Come, come, Oldiesman!

Was

ANYTHING

EVER

EVER

EVER

twi's fault?

We've discussed over 5 years of things in front of you.

Can you name even ONE where you believe you can point to the

situation and say

"this was terrible, and twi was entirely (or MOSTLY) to blame.

twi took action they should not-which was criminal,

or failed to act when they should-which was criminal,

and if I had known at the time, I would have blamed twi

for such evil, unconscionable actions"?

Can you name ONE?

We can name MANY.

Obviously,

in each situation, there is blame to go around,

but Oldiesman always seems to skip over passing any

to twi. They get a FREE PASS.

Did I miss a situation?

Can you name ONE?

Even ONE?

[WordWolf]

Looking at something in hindsight, with a critique toward improvement, is one thing, and quite honorable.

But all I seem to see from you is a view toward destruction of anything twi related.

Do you really have a heart to see a BETTER TWI?

Or have it destroyed?

What does that have to do with the discussion?

We're talking about the WOW program instituted and executed

by twi.

Almost everyone agrees on the following:

-twi promised great spiritual growth for all participants

-twi promised it oversaw a good program

-twi pushed the program like it was the Holy Grail 1/2 of all programs

(second only to the way corpse)

-twi exercised NO quality control over applicants

-twi skipped ensuring the applicants were experienced or trained except for taking pfal Foundational.

-twi gave a few pep talks and NO real training

-twi sent strangers out, unprepared and untrained, to areas they were foreign to.

-twi chose target spots casually, with little, if any, study of the areas they sent people to

-twi exercised NO quality control over applicants for their overseers (the corps)

-twi did NOT carefully screen their overseers before sending them out (the corps)

-twi arranged NO housing for WOWs (past a few days for arrival, possibly, in a FEW cases)

-twi arranged NO jobs for WOWs

All of that, just viewed on PAPER, is insufficient for both the PROGRAM's success

and the INDIVIDUAL's growth-which, supposedly, is at least HALF its PURPOSE.

We're not trying to repair the program.

Are YOU?

If so, please say so.

[oldiesman]

Depends on the specifics, but I start with the assailant, rapist or murderer. (And the devil. But I can't have him arrested. Let's presume I ALWAYS blame him even if I don't mention him SPECIFICALLY. I'll do the same for you.) Then I see if the victim had no choice but to be in a situation where he/she was. If so,

then whoever put them in that situation is responsible, and possibly CRIMINALLY LIABLE.

Ok. But you also seem to be forgetting that twi programs were "voluntary".

I think we must take some responsibility ourselves for *putting ourselves* in these programs, along with every other consideration.

But you know Wordwolf, if you applied the above in every situation you analyze and dissect, with appropriate blame going to ALL the various parties involved, I think your reasonings would be more objective.

I'll try one:

I volunteered to go WOW, and TWI sent me to Amarillo Tx on my first WOW year.

One day, the car I am driving gets sideswipped by a truck, on the highway. I was in the left lane passing a truck in the center lane, and obviously didn't pass the truck vigorously enough. The whole side of the car was demolished and I almost got killed.

Who's to blame?

I would first and foremost blame myself...for not avoiding the accident that I believe I could have avoided.

AND

The truck driver, for making a mistake, and sideswipping me.

But now I feel like accessing extra blame to related parties:

I was coming home from work. Maybe my job at that time gets a little blame, since I might not have gotten into the accident if I hadn't been working that day.

I was driving an Opel Manta. Maybe Opel should get a little blame for making the car that I got sideswipped in, that didn't have enough horsepower for me to pass fast enough.

I was driving on a highway in Amarillo. Maybe Amarillo, for having a highway that I could get sideswipped on. If Amarillo didn't exist, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened.

I was driving in Texas. Maybe Texas, for having a state that had a highway that I was driving on that I got sideswipped on. If Texas didn't exist, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened.

I was driving in the USA. Maybe USA, for being a country that had a highway that I was driving on that I got sideswipped on. If USA didn't exist, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened.

And so forth, all the way up to God's Universe.

And let's not forget the Devil's hand in all this...

And finally, *last but not least*, maybe TWI, since if I hadn't been involved with twi, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

Then again, maybe it would have anyway.

And so I conclude that twi had about as much culpability in that crash as the State of Texas did, which was basically, none.

Edited November 2, 2005 by oldiesman

[WordWolf]

Looking at something in hindsight, with a critique toward improvement, is one thing, and quite honorable.

But all I seem to see from you is a view toward destruction of anything twi related.

Do you really have a heart to see a BETTER TWI?

Or have it destroyed?

I have a negative view towards the WOW program because it was poorly designed,

poorly executed,

and-used as it was designed and executed-

messed up and/or ruined the lives of some Christians.

God's people deserve better than a roll of the dice,

especially when you PROMISE better.

Are we trying to redesign a better twi?

No-we're discussing the LIES that hid a grossly-inferior program

"Do you really have a heart to see a BETTER TWI?

Or have it destroyed?"

Congratulations!

It is now a new month,

and that question rates as the stupidest question I've been asked for November 2005!

It is AMAZING!

You've been posting on WayDale and the GSC since before the year 2000,

and you STILL have NO FRICKING IDEA who posts to this board nor why we post here.

My screen-name is "WordWolf."

I post at the GSC.

I am an adult male.

I have a sense of humour and remember quite a bit.

Hello.

[WordWolf]

Oldiesman in italics,

WordWolf in boldface.

Ok. But you also seem to be forgetting that twi programs were "voluntary".

I think we must take some responsibility ourselves for *putting ourselves* in these programs, along with every other consideration.

That is true-in addition to whatever blame goes to OTHERS.

You do know that OTHERS get blame as WELL, right?

But you know Wordwolf, if you applied the above in every situation you analyze and dissect, with appropriate blame going to ALL the various parties involved, I think your reasonings would be more objective.

No, you're going to demonstrate you don't know the first

thing about responsibility-both legal and moral.

But, let's see where you go with this.

I think it's healthy to show your thinking.

I'll try one:

I volunteered to go WOW, and TWI sent me to Amarillo Tx on my first WOW year.

One day, the car I am driving gets sideswipped by a truck, on the highway.

I was in the left lane passing a truck in the center lane, and obviously didn't pass the truck vigorously enough.

The whole side of the car was demolished and I almost got killed.

Who's to blame?

I would first and foremost blame myself...for not avoiding the accident that I believe I could have avoided.

Partly.

The Dept of Motor Vehicles' Drivers Manual DOES show the blind spots for trucks,

and how you need to account for them,

and how there's places the driver is physically UNABLE to see you.

AND

The truck driver, for making a mistake, and sideswipping me.

Well,

as the driver of the truck, he is responsible for seeing it is handled in a safe fashion.

Exactly WHICH of you was MORE responsible-or ENTIRELY responsible-

depends on the specifics of how each of you handled your vehicles.

The courts of the US allow for partial blame and partial responsibility.

For example, if you drove into his blind spot and he did not exercise proper

caution, you both SHARE the blame.

Or, it might have been ENTIRELY the fault of one or the other.

The car may have darted into the blind spot,

or the truck may just have bulled its way thru the highway.

I don't know enough here to know how that went.

But now I feel like accessing extra blame to related parties:

What you "feel like" has nothing to do with the truth of the events.

But show us how you obscure things.

I was coming home from work.

Irrelevant.

Maybe my job at that time gets a little blame, since I might not have gotten into the accident if I hadn't been working that day.

You are responsible for being in full control of your faculties when getting behind

the wheel. If you were tired from work, it was YOUR responsibility for making sure

you didn't drive, or you got rest before driving.

Any driving school could tell you that. Any good driving STUDENT should know that.

Your job is irrelevant.

I was driving an Opel Manta. Maybe Opel should get a little blame for making the car that I got sideswipped in, that didn't have enough horsepower for me to pass fast enough.

IF the car was unsafe-

if it had defective brakes or handling as released from the factory-

THEN Opel has blame.

That's how factory recalls get started.

IF the brakes were worn or the steering had degraded,

it is the fault of the driver/owner for failing to maintain his vehicle in a safe fashion.

So,

as stated in your example (a car in average condition),

Opel is irrelevant.

I was driving on a highway in Amarillo.

Maybe Amarillo, for having a highway that I could get sideswipped on.

If Amarillo didn't exist, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened

I was driving in Texas.

Maybe Texas, for having a state that had a highway that I was driving on that I got sideswipped on.

If Texas didn't exist, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened.

IF there was something unsafe about the conditions of the highway,

then either the city or state bears blame for that.

Since they don't -the highway was average and maintained-

the city and state are irrelevant.

I was driving in the USA.

Maybe USA, for being a country that had a highway that I was driving on that I got sideswipped on.

If USA didn't exist, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened.

Does EVERYONE see how STUPID this was,

or just me?

This was the faults of one, the other, or both drivers,

and it is possible to attempt to manufacture blame to others.

And so forth, all the way up to God's Universe.

And let's not forget the Devil's hand in all this...

Fine, serve the devil with legal papers and have him charged.

And finally, *last but not least*, maybe TWI, since if I hadn't bee

n involved with twi, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

No, that one is not twi's fault-

unless they DEMANDED you drive at that moment when you were

unsafe to drive.

(IF a coordinator said "get here now or I'm kicking you out,"

and you replied "I haven't slept for 20 hours"

and he said "I don't care-get here or you're fired from the program",

THEN they bear some responsibility.

OTHERWISE, they don't.

Then again, maybe it would have anyway.

Techically, you wouldnt have been on that highway,

but they had no effect on your ability to drive,

and that section of highway, AFAIK, is not famous as

a dangerous driving hazard.

So, they would bear no responsibility for the damage,

AS STATED.

(If you're hiding something, that would be different.)

And so I conclude that twi had about as much culpability in that crash as the State of Texas did,

which was basically, none.

Fine, we agree on something.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what we were discussing.

We HAVE shown that I can evaluate situations coldly and determine

where blame logically belongs,

and we HAVE shown that when faced with that,

you bring up irrelevant events as a smokescreen to pretend they're

related.

This has been very informative to SOME of the people here.

Edited November 2, 2005 by WordWolf

[oldiesman]

Every time someone has brought up a situation,

when it comes to you,

the organization is NEVER to be blamed.

Not true. I base my judgment on the facts of each individual situation.

But, I would say that *you* probably blame twi for everything, because any situation involving twi has twi involved in it. And just twi's involvement in it, is enough for you to blame them for being responsible. (umm, responsible for anything *BAD*, that is.) Who cares about any other details- :lol:

[oldiesman]

But, the program told people to IGNORE anything telling them not to

speak-which means the program taught to IGNORE REVELATION.

GOD was trying to keep her away from trouble,

but FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS got her IN IT.

(DUH. )

Interesting spin.

You really think that we were instructed that if God told us not to witness to someone to avoid a potential tragedy, we were to follow "the program" anyway, and disregard God?

Please, show me that one in your WOW syllabus. :lol:

[WordWolf]

Every time someone has brought up a situation,

when it comes to you,

the organization is NEVER to be blamed.

twi puts people on an unsafe vehicle in unsafe travelling conditions,

requires they travel,

and they all end up in the hospital.

Oldiesman: not twi's fault.

twi requires women to hitchhike to and from an event location.

Some women are raped on the trip.

Oldiesman: not twi's fault.

twi sends wows to unsafe cities and told to talk to every human,

and to IGNORE any urges or impulses to the contrary

(IGNORE REVELATION),

and some are robbed, assaulted and/or rape.

Oldiesman: not twi's fault.

twi sends wows to cities, with unscreened corps overseeing them.

One group of wows is MURDERED by the corps overseer.

Oldiesman: not twi's fault.

twi has people on grounds. Some of them are women who are

drugged and raped by vpw, lcm, other higher-ups.

Oldiesman: not twi's fault.

twi has people on grounds. One man, faced with lcm having

sex with his (the man's) wife, screams that he can't compete

with lcm, then goes off and blows his brains out with a

bullet from a pistol.

Was THAT twi's fault?

I know they didn't put the gun in his hand and pull the trigger,

but are they FREE OF RESPONSIBILITY there?

=====

Come, come, Oldiesman!

Was

ANYTHING

EVER

EVER

EVER

twi's fault?

We've discussed over 5 years of things in front of you.

Can you name even ONE where you believe you can point to the

situation and say

"this was terrible, and twi was entirely (or MOSTLY) to blame.

twi took action they should not-which was criminal,

or failed to act when they should-which was criminal,

and if I had known at the time, I would have blamed twi

for such evil, unconscionable actions"?

Can you name ONE?

We can name MANY.

Obviously,

in each situation, there is blame to go around,

but Oldiesman always seems to skip over passing any

to twi. They get a FREE PASS.

Did I miss a situation?

Can you name ONE? Even ONE?

You keep claiming that you "base your judgement on the facts of each individual situation."

Somehow, your "judgement", which is based on "facts",

always absolves the organization of wrong-doing.

If not, kindly cite the exception.

There are hundreds of incidents we've discussed.

Can you not find ONE where twi is majorly at fault?

Doesn't that inability tell you something?

THINK, MAN, THINK!

[WordWolf]

Interesting spin.

You really think that we were instructed that if God told us not to witness to someone to avoid a potential tragedy, we were to follow "the program" anyway, and disregard God?

Please, show me that one in your WOW syllabus. :lol:

We already discussed this in this thread.

Cowgirl mentioned it most prominently-

and you cherry-picked off her post to find what you WANTED to see-

and NOT the entire contents.

Here is what SHE said.

[oldiesman]

Yep, Oldies - you do do always blame the victim and maintain that TWI has never done any wrong.

Not true Belle.

I do not always blame the victim, and do not maintain TWI never does anything wrong.

But, I do admit that I abstain from the suspicions, backbiting, bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, evil speaking, malice, unrelenting finger-pointing condemnations, and so forth.

There is a difference. ;)

[WordWolf]

Out in 88, reading your post brought back an old memory especially in light of following leadership's orders and not heeding the voice of God.

I was 24yrs old, a Wow in Alberta and

we were told to witness to "anything that moved."

I was pretty naive and I literally took those words to heart. I began witnessing to a guy on a bus on my way home, my stop came up and I gave him by witnessing card, told him what time the fellowship would be that evening. Well that wasn't good enough for him, he followed me right off the bus to where I was living.

I had this gut feeling right from the beginning

BUT

I had been told to ignore any gut feelings or feelings of fear and that God would protect me because I was doing his will.

I got to the outer door of the apartment and tried to quickly slip in but this guy forced his way in right behind me. I'm not a big person, but this guy was a pretty fair size, we ended up in a lobby and before I knew it he had me pinned up against the wall and was making sexual moves, I yelled at him and tried to push him off but I couldn't budge him, so I yelled out "In the name of Jesus Christ, get off of me!!" It worked, immediately he got off and left but I was left pretty shook up. I went into the apartment where my wow family was and told them the incident and

their response was

"Look how God protected you, cause you spoke His word, it could of been alot worse!"

And I believed them even against my gut feeling which

I now believe was God working in me not to talk to the guy in the first place.

Just another example of listening to leadership and leaving God out of the picture.

Cowgirl

[Belle]

Not true Belle.

I do not always blame the victim, and do not maintain TWI never does anything wrong.

Then please provide two examples.

But, I do admit that I abstain from the suspicions, backbiting, bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, evil speaking, malice, unrelenting finger-pointing condemnations, and so forth.

There is a difference. ;)

There IS a difference and most people on here do the same as you claim to do.

[Outin88.]

Ok. But you also seem to be forgetting that twi programs were "voluntary".

I think we must take some responsibility ourselves for *putting ourselves* in these programs, along with every other consideration.

Yes going wow was voluntary, but TWI did little to support or prepare those that went out.

I tried to make a point that when Jesus sent out the disciples, they were disciplened, mature believers and that Jesus gave them power over demons, and to heal, and to perfomr miracles.

Churches send out missionaries with finacial and emotional support, TWI simply trough together people and in areas that were sometimes dangerous without financial support.

How many stories have we heard about wow's eating macaroni and cheese or pb&j sandwitches most of the year just to survive. How many wows ended up in a bad part of a city because the aprtments were affordable there?

How many young, immature beleivers niavely signed up because they got caught up in the hype at the rock?

I caravanned on the way to the rock some believers, one was a young believer that had just took the class a few months earlier, he was 19 or 20 and had never been away from home. I could tell he was very nervous and sure enough I heard he left the wow field within a few months.

Why wasn't there better training and screening of those that wanted to go? How many people got hurt because TWI didn't screen people's emotional spiritual and physical state?

I mentioned in another post that all those that live godly will suffer persection, whether they go wow or not, but TWI fluffed over that with there all believing equals recieving doctrine, hey just believe and you'll have an abundant life. Something bad happened, well he wasn't believing enough. Nonsense.

And of course we were taught to follow TWI's leaders decisions, since they were so spiritual. Not!

Yes we volunteered, but it was for TWI and it was in their name, and if they were truly a godly and spiritual organization they would have done a better job instead when .... happened, they blamed the individual for not believing enough, or some such nonsense.

[WordWolf]

God tells Elijah to go to the brook, what was the believing action of Elijah? go to the brook.

God told Paul not to go to Jerusalem, what is the believing action? Don't go, right?

See, it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. We simply believe God when he tells us. But to believe in our believing can get us in some trouble. "Thank you God for the car I don't have", I'm beleiving, so you have to deliver! "I'm going to go to Alabama and I'm believing you will prosper me there". It's got to happen because of my believing, right? Wrong, not if it's not God's will.

Sorry, that is an erroneous doctrine TWI taught. And a lot of people got hurt because of it.

I heard Dale Sides say they God told him not to accept an assignment, but he followed TWI's orders instead and said it almost cost him his life! Oh but it was his believing or lack there of, right? Wrong!

I wonder how many folks had the thought not to go wow or go to a certain area, but the "leaders" told them it was where they needed to go and caused hurt or even death.

Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice, leads to people getting hurt.

[oldiesman]

Can you name even ONE where you believe you can point to the

situation and say

"this was terrible, and twi was entirely (or MOSTLY) to blame.

twi took action they should not-which was criminal,

or failed to act when they should-which was criminal,

and if I had known at the time, I would have blamed twi

for such evil, unconscionable actions"?

Can you name ONE?

Here's one: Excathedra's story of VP drugging, then raping her.

No, that one is not twi's fault-

unless they DEMANDED you drive at that moment when you were

unsafe to drive.

Thanks WordWolf, glad we agree on something.

[oldiesman]

Why wasn't there better training and screening of those that wanted to go? How many people got hurt because TWI didn't screen people's emotional spiritual and physical state?

I think because TWI left it up to folks' decisions whether or not God was working in their hearts to go, despite their past.

I too was concerned about TWI allowing folks to make the decision to go out WOW from the Rock. I thought that twi should have been more careful, making folks give themselves more time to plan, to count the cost, etc. I wrote a letter to Ralph D. about it, and he informed me that statistically, less folks leave the field who have decided at the Rock than who have planned.

I will admit that TWI was very liberal and not very strict with folks wanting to go WOW. I believe, because they left it up to the honesty integrity and will of the people going, believing that God will work in their hearts to move the Word, and they'd be blessed doing that.

That worked for most, but obviously, didn't work for some others.

the bot and twi leaders made mistakes, they are human.

We all made mistakes and still make them.

[Outin88.]

the bot and twi leaders made mistakes, they are human.

We all made mistakes and still make them.

You got that right! They acted very carnally and selfishly using followers to recruit for then without much thought to their safety.

For an organization that claimed to be God's ministry and send out wows via revelation, being human and making mistakes which hurt many just doesn't cut it with me. They should have said, your on your own, we won't be supporting you finacially and were sending you places and with others by our five senses, not revelation, so good luck!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 2, 2005 by Outin88.

[WordWolf]

I think because TWI left it up to folks' decisions whether or not God was working in their hearts to go, despite their past.

That's not good enough.

The police departments across the country know that police are responsible

for people's lives.

So, they don't leave things up to folks' decisions.

They fingerprint applicants and give them psychological tests,

and background checks BEFORE training BEGINS.

WOWs and corps faced NO screening process,

which guarantees that, sooner or later, things will blow up

in everyone's faces.

I too was concerned about TWI allowing folks to make the decision to go out WOW from the Rock. I thought that twi should have been more careful, making folks give themselves more time to plan, to count the cost, etc.

I heartily agree-that's one of SEVERAL steps I'd have mandated.

I wrote a letter to Ralph D. about it, and he informed me that statistically, less folks leave the field who have decided at the Rock than who have planned.

That's an excuse. It's STILL wrong.

I will admit that TWI was very liberal and not very strict with folks wanting to go WOW. I believe, because they left it up to the honesty integrity and will of the people going, believing that God will work in their hearts to move the Word, and they'd be blessed doing that.

Which works

A) If nobody's twisting arms selling the program-"you'll grow 10 years!"

B) if everyone is completely honest about their maturity

C) people with psychological and psychatric problems are excluded

That worked for most, but obviously, didn't work for some others.

That's why screening processes EXIST.

EVERYBODY has a screening process.

It at least eliminates the worst cases.

the bot and twi leaders made mistakes, they are human.

We all made mistakes and still make them.

That's no excuse for carelessness and NOT TRYING.

Even a BAD screening process would have been of SOME use.

Here's one: Excathedra's story of VP drugging, then raping her.

I'm glad we can agree that was wrong and unconscionable and bad.

(Sometimes I wondered if we both still agreed that.)

However,

I was asking about the programs and staff and so on.

Not so much the "vpw committed a felony on me personally"

stuff, but the organizational bad things.

Can you point to even one of those?

I gave a few examples, you might choose one of those

if you're drawing a blank.