Well I suppose then that TWI leaders should have then stated ...* SOME of you wonderfull volunteers will be placed by revelation from God into families and areas that will make it the single greatest year of spiritual growth of their lives....
The REST of you however are sh-t outta luck and will not have such an enjoyable experience.........
I know..I KNOW...they should have placed a disclaimer on our envelopes ... *the leader in charge of your placement...may or may NOT have been walking with God at the time of this decision....wow experiences may vary to the direct degree that your personal leaders decide to walk in the spirit....
There is a 40 % Probability of emotional trauma, 23 % chance of you actual will be caused physical harm, 20 % of you will suffer food privation .... 16 % of you will be physically assaulted .... some 7 % will be endure violent rape...while a few unfortuante 3% of you will be faced with an untimely death while involved in this program * ......this would have been a more honest aproach....no?
I am not asked biblically NOR does God request or require me to cut any slack or excuse people who steal kill and destroy from the flock in GOD`S name....Jesus didn`t cut any slack to the pharacees or money changers either.
I really hate the way that this new board lumps all of my seperate posts into one .... it really confuses things when seperate posts and thoughts are jumbled together<_<
Great post and insight lilbit.... I rest of the group was as pure of motive as we were...only to then be deeply harmed when removed from our protective care....
I agree any GOOD recieved on the wow field or during participation in twi programs was because of God`s goodness in SPITE of the organization and doctrine practiced :(
I agree any GOOD recieved on the wow field or during participation in twi programs was because of God`s goodness in SPITE of the organization and doctrine practiced
Which is a clear double-standard.
You blame twi and the bot for the ungodliness that happened.
Yet offer no thanks or congrats to twi and the bot for the godliness that happened.
Ya know, it seems to me that a major point is being missed here.
Death was against TWI's agenda. Death was against everything TWI told us could be ours if we just believed, obeyed and all that hoopla.
If TWI didn't believe that they had personal culpability (sp) in the deaths of all the individuals, either WOW or Corps or LEAD then the deaths of each individual would have been handled differently.
The bottom line IS not and never WAS could accidents be avoided or simple human error.
The overall line was that the individual NEVER mattered to TWI.
TWI mattered to TWI and that was all the counted; the personal agenda of TWI.
For an organization that claimed they celebrated and revered the word, the word, the word, they sure ignored those verses where Jesus said that the riches of the world was not comparable to ONE soul; COUNT IT, ONE ONE ONE Soul.
For a "biblical" ministry that touted the teaching that Jesus would have died solely for you cause he loved you that much, that the person was worth all that and more...
Well, they negated this words when the people of TWI put their hearts, minds, and actual lives out on the line and their lives were snuffed out. Their lights were permanently dimmed in this world.
And what did they get for it??
A nice sweeping under the rug if they could do it; if you weren't high profile enough.
AND if you were high profile enough, then it was YOUR fault you died; you were out of fellowship, you missed revelation, you weren't going out by two-sies oozies...
These people lost their lives in the line of service in TWI. What was doen for them???
Were you allowed to cry for them, as the New Testament Saints cried for the loss of theirs? Were you allowed to celebrate their lives and tell of their exploits and bemoan the loss of their lives? Were they held up for respect and admiration, after 'having laid it all on the line?'
No.
Many, if not all of them became anathema.
Because it didn't fit TWI's agenda of health, wealth and prosperity. The individual, God's people, God's children, were not good enough, and although worth MORE than all the riches of the world, were not good enough to be treated with the proper respect and dignity GIVEN to good people everywhere.
These people were sacrificed to the cross of TWI, oh no wait, TWI doesn't do crosses, they were sacrificed on the altar, oh wait, no altars..
Hey, TWI likes mantles...
They were sacrificed on the Mantle of the Man of God and erased into obscurity forever.
It's not human error, it's not being falliable or infalliable, it is the nature of the beast of the organization was (and still is) is that the individual is of little to no consequence as long as the mother machine gets what it needs to keep running.
All these kids who died in the line of fire should have been memoralized and not demonized or blamed.
But TWI couldn't do that NOR could it admit that it made mistakes in dealing with the very people's lives who whole heartedly trusted TWI and gave their lives over.
And there's no excuse for what happened to them and the way their memories were treated afterwards.
Damned right Samurai ... those poor people mysteriously just dropped off the radar. Most never learned of their friends fate.
It could have been any one of us who whole heartedly trusted our lives to these people in the hopes of the spiritual growth and understanding, the prosperity promised if we would but carefully follow their instructions :(
Our trust was betrayed...it cost some more than others.
The Wow program was nothing more then a recruiting tool where TWI used us to recruit for them. I honestly was blessed to witness the word to people and sign them up for the class, but we payed our own way with no finacial support from TWI, we followed their program believing that the promise of 10 years spiritual growth and have an abundant life.
TWI did deceive us into thinking it was by revelation where we went and with whom we'd be living with.
When I was getting ready to go wow, I had saved $1000 and it was sugessted by my "leadership" that I only take $400 or go to Alaska or Hawaii. I decided I wanted to go to Alaska. When I went in the tent to sign up at the rock, I sat with D@n@ A. When I said I'd like to go to Alaska, he immediately brought his brother S.A. the limb coordinator of AK at the time. He asked me a few questions, one was what type of work I did. I said I had worked with Mainframe computers, so he said Juneau would be a good place for me as that was the State capitol and would have those type of comupters.
Guess where I was sent? Yup, Juneau. Did I find work with computers there? No. There was no work to be found in that field. I mostly worked in a pizza parlor. I'm not upset over this, but I don't see any revelation in it. I didn't have bad year either, in fact it was pretty good, but not without incedents.
One of my wow sisters who had been in TWI for several years and in the college div. was emotionally unstable imo, she had a "hair-trigger" temper and would "fly off the handle" at the least littlest things. She would slam doors, throw things and stomp around the house screaming at the rest of us for insginificant things mostly due to her imagination. It was very difficult living with her.
One day she bought a gun, we all raised an eyebrow to that but she was allowed to keep it, why I don't know. A few weeks later, in another emotional rage, she was threatening to kill herself with it, but the gun jammed so she threw it at the wall in a fit of rage, where it stuck in the pannelling. Amazing knowone was hurt or killed.
Well the limb leader said to send her home, when we called her parents to come and get her, we described her behavior to her Dad, he said something like, "oh she's always been like that". Another believer in town who had been in the college div with her said she was like that in there as well!
Where was the revelation in putting this woman with us? Or even sending her out wow to begin with? Where was the screening for this woman's emotional state? TWI put her and us in a dangerous situation imo.
Ya know, it seems to me that a major point is being missed here.
Death was against TWI's agenda. Death was against everything TWI told us could be ours if we just believed, obeyed and all that hoopla.
If TWI didn't believe that they had personal culpability (sp) in the deaths of all the individuals, either WOW or Corps or LEAD then the deaths of each individual would have been handled differently.
The bottom line IS not and never WAS could accidents be avoided or simple human error.
The overall line was that the individual NEVER mattered to TWI.
TWI mattered to TWI and that was all the counted; the personal agenda of TWI.
For an organization that claimed they celebrated and revered the word, the word, the word, they sure ignored those verses where Jesus said that the riches of the world was not comparable to ONE soul; COUNT IT, ONE ONE ONE Soul.
For a "biblical" ministry that touted the teaching that Jesus would have died solely for you cause he loved you that much, that the person was worth all that and more...
Well, they negated this words when the people of TWI put their hearts, minds, and actual lives out on the line and their lives were snuffed out. Their lights were permanently dimmed in this world.
And what did they get for it??
A nice sweeping under the rug if they could do it; if you weren't high profile enough.
AND if you were high profile enough, then it was YOUR fault you died; you were out of fellowship, you missed revelation, you weren't going out by two-sies oozies...
These people lost their lives in the line of service in TWI. What was doen for them???
Were you allowed to cry for them, as the New Testament Saints cried for the loss of theirs? Were you allowed to celebrate their lives and tell of their exploits and bemoan the loss of their lives? Were they held up for respect and admiration, after 'having laid it all on the line?'
No.
Many, if not all of them became anathema.
Because it didn't fit TWI's agenda of health, wealth and prosperity. The individual, God's people, God's children, were not good enough, and although worth MORE than all the riches of the world, were not good enough to be treated with the proper respect and dignity GIVEN to good people everywhere.
These people were sacrificed to the cross of TWI, oh no wait, TWI doesn't do crosses, they were sacrificed on the altar, oh wait, no altars..
Hey, TWI likes mantles...
They were sacrificed on the Mantle of the Man of God and erased into obscurity forever.
It's not human error, it's not being falliable or infalliable, it is the nature of the beast of the organization was (and still is) is that the individual is of little to no consequence as long as the mother machine gets what it needs to keep running.
All these kids who died in the line of fire should have been memoralized and not demonized or blamed.
But TWI couldn't do that NOR could it admit that it made mistakes in dealing with the very people's lives who whole heartedly trusted TWI and gave their lives over.
And there's no excuse for what happened to them and the way their memories were treated afterwards.
Samuri brings up some good points.
I was told the wow program was patterned somewhat by when Jesus sent out disciples, but Jesus gave them power and authority to heal and over devils etc. And these were discipled followers of Jesus, they were mature believers.
Luke 9:1,2 (NIV)
"1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick."
I'm also aware that those who live godly in Christ will be persecuted.
II Timothy 3 10-12 (NIV)
"10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."
Unfortunatley TWI taught us that "all believing equals receiving" and that we would have power for abundant living to live in prosperity and good health. So we naively thought we could do anything with our believeing. These doctrines are wrong imo, we can believe God when God tells us, but beleiving in our beleiving is erroneous. We can't believe for curtains to turn red just because we say so, imo.
We can believe God when He gives us revelation and instructions, like Elijah did.
I Kings 17:2-5 (NIV)
"2 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah: 3 "Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there."
5 So he did what the LORD had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook."
God tells Elijah to go to the brook, what was the believing action of Elijah? go to the brook.
God told Paul not to go to Jerusalem, what is the believing action? Don't go, right?
See, it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. We simply believe God when he tells us. But to believe in our believing can get us in some trouble. "Thank you God for the car I don't have", I'm beleiving, so you have to deliver! "I'm going to go to Alabama and I'm believing you will prosper me there". It's got to happen because of my believing, right? Wrong, not if it's not God's will.
Sorry, that is an erroneous doctrine TWI taught. And a lot of people got hurt because of it.
I heard Dale Sides say they God told him not to accept an assignment, but he followed TWI's orders instead and said it almost cost him his life! Oh but it was his believing or lack there of, right? Wrong!
I wonder how many folks had the thought not to go wow or go to a certain area, but the "leaders" told them it was where they needed to go and caused hurt or even death.
Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice, leads to people getting hurt.
Unfortunatley TWI taught us that "all believing equals receiving" and that we would have power for abundant living to live in prosperity and good health. So we naively thought we could do anything with our believeing. These doctrines are wrong imo, we can believe God when God tells us, but beleiving in our beleiving is erroneous. We can't believe for curtains to turn red just because we say so, imo.
See, it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. We simply believe God when he tells us. But to believe in our believing can get us in some trouble. "Thank you God for the car I don't have", I'm beleiving, so you have to deliver! "I'm going to go to Alabama and I'm believing you will prosper me there". It's got to happen because of my believing, right? Wrong, not if it's not God's will.
Sorry, that is an erroneous doctrine TWI taught. And a lot of people got hurt because of it.
I heard Dale Sides say they God told him not to accept an assignment, but he followed TWI's orders instead and said it almost cost him his life! Oh but it was his believing or lack there of, right? Wrong!
I wonder how many folks had the thought not to go wow or go to a certain area, but the "leaders" told them it was where they needed to go and caused hurt or even death.
Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice, leads to people getting hurt.
Out in 88, reading your post brought back an old memory especially in light of following leadership's orders and not heeding the voice of God.
I was 24yrs old, a Wow in Alberta and we were told to witness to "anything that moved." I was pretty naive and I literally took those words to heart. I began witnessing to a guy on a bus on my way home, my stop came up and I gave him by witnessing card, told him what time the fellowship would be that evening. Well that wasn't good enough for him, he followed me right off the bus to where I was living. I had this gut feeling right from the beginning BUT I had been told to ignore any gut feelings or feelings of fear and that God would protect me because I was doing his will.
I got to the outer door of the apartment and tried to quickly slip in but this guy forced his way in right behind me. I'm not a big person, but this guy was a pretty fair size, we ended up in a lobby and before I knew it he had me pinned up against the wall and was making sexual moves, I yelled at him and tried to push him off but I couldn't budge him, so I yelled out "In the name of Jesus Christ, get off of me!!" It worked, immediately he got off and left but I was left pretty shook up. I went into the apartment where my wow family was and told them the incident and their response was "Look how God protected you, cause you spoke His word, it could of been alot worse!" And I believed them even against my gut feeling which I now believe was God working in me not to talk to the guy in the first place.
Just another example of listening to leadership and leaving God out of the picture.
It looks like you just missed the revelation...not to worry though God is still in business. ;)
I tend to agree with the WOWs. You were blessed for speaking/doing the Word and it could have been worse.
You're out there preaching the gospel to everything that moves (Mark 16:15)...
Then God warns you not to speak to this guy over there.. but, unfortunately, you missed it.
You speak to him anyway, he follows and harasses you, and, in a display of confident power and believing, you boldly say "In the name of Jesus Christ get off me"!
Immediately the guy backs off, astonished at the power of God you were exposing him to!
It looks like you just missed the revelation...not to worry though God is still in business. ;)
I tend to agree with the WOWs. You were blessed for speaking/doing the Word and it could have been worse.
You're out there preaching the gospel to everything that moves (Mark 16:15)...
Then God warns you not to speak to this guy over there.. but, unfortunately, you missed it.
You speak to him anyway, he follows and harasses you, and, in a display of confident power and believing, you boldly say "In the name of Jesus Christ get off me"!
Immediately the guy backs off, astonished at the power of God you were exposing him to!
Sounds like a victorious story to me. :lol:
And if he'd managed to assault and rape her,
it's because of her 'lack of believing.'
Finish the sentence.
Sounds like a f*ing stupid perspective that could have gotten her killed to me.
Sounds like a perspective with blinders to reality to me.
Sounds like how people WERE killed and raped in the field.
Sounds like I'm gonna get another snow job on how the
program's failures are not the fault of the program's implementors.
Yeah Cowgirl it was all YOUR fault don`tcha know?.....further more....as oldiesman has pointed out numerous times......according to twi doctrine......EVERYBODY who was beaten OR lost their lives ...OR were raped OR unfortunate enough to be murdered...while following leaderships *suggestions* it was entirely their fault as well....the little children who were molested by their tc`s gosh darn it, I guess they missed the revelation as well.
Shoot ... personally, I believe that we all missed the very biggest revelation from God of all I am afraid.....and that was..* to Stay the he ll away from twi and the false doctrines being used to enslave* in the FIRST place....
The Way providing some kind of medical insurance for their WOWs would have been nice.
For that matter, paying us some kind of weekly or monthly stipend would have freed us up considerably to concentrate on our divine mission - such would not have been unreasonable, and they had the resources to do so had the two sides to their brains functioned correctly.
Shortly after I arrived in Charlotte NC, I developed a ball-busting hernia which I had little choice but to live with for the remainder of the year, despite all the healing prayers to no avail. And when I did find a part time job (after literally starving for two weeks), it was one one where I had to get up at 3 Am each morning to walk to work 2 miles to get there (with a wooden leg no less - and yes - sometimes in the snow -lol). How much energy did I have by the afternoon, when I got out of work? Not a helluva alot.
Oh yeah, I got through the year, thanks only to God. But what did I accomplish in terms of actual "outreach"? Not much, amidst trying to survive like everyone else.
Had the Way actually provided at least some minimum of financial support to the WOWs whom they merely slapped together and "shipped out", I think the experiences and the results would have been far more impressive. Had this organisation made the "commitment" ( a commitment EQUAL to the weight of that which was required of us)of providing some kind of financial support to their representatives, perhaps they would become conscience enough to have attempted a far better job pre-screening folks to weed out the psychos, to better insure the success of their investment.
Other ministries and churches support the work of their missionaries.
They provide their missionaries with some kind of stipend, as to free them up to pursue their missionary work. But the Way, for the most part, did not.
The WOW program was a fine idea, but it was poorly thought through and implemented.
Yeah Cowgirl it was all YOUR fault don`tcha know?.....further more....as oldiesman has pointed out numerous times......according to twi doctrine......EVERYBODY who was beaten OR lost their lives ...OR were raped OR unfortunate enough to be murdered...while following leaderships *suggestions* it was entirely their fault as well....the little children who were molested by their tc`s gosh darn it, I guess they missed the revelation as well. ...
I pointed that out numerous times?
You are misrepresenting my position, and putting words in my mouth. Nothing new.
I prefer to look at the facts in each situation, then judge accordingly.
But *you* seem to ALWAYS place the blame on twi, or the bot, or other representatives of twi, or anything twi related; the facts of a situation be damned.
And when someone got some help thru a WOW, the program also should get some credit for that success as well, for having been developed to have the Christian there to help another.
Another way you might want to look at it is something like a baseball team you're fond of, winning the world series. Individual players help win the world series, and should be thanked, but it's also good that there's an organization there as part of the team that put the winning team together.
Yeah Cowgirl it was all YOUR fault don`tcha know?.....further more....as oldiesman has pointed out numerous times......according to twi doctrine......EVERYBODY who was beaten OR lost their lives ...OR were raped OR unfortunate enough to be murdered...while following leaderships *suggestions* it was entirely their fault as well....the little children who were molested by their tc`s gosh darn it, I guess they missed the revelation as well.
Shoot ... personally, I believe that we all missed the very biggest revelation from God of all I am afraid.....and that was..* to Stay the he ll away from twi and the false doctrines being used to enslave* in the FIRST place....
How very foolish we were.....
I pointed that out numerous times?
You are misrepresenting my position, and putting words in my mouth. Nothing new.
I prefer to look at the facts in each situation, then judge accordingly.
But *you* seem to ALWAYS place the blame on twi, or the bot, or other representatives of twi, or anything twi related; the facts of a situation be damned.
Every time someone has brought up a situation,
when it comes to you,
the organization is NEVER to be blamed.
twi puts people on an unsafe vehicle in unsafe travelling conditions,
requires they travel,
and they all end up in the hospital.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi requires women to hitchhike to and from an event location.
Some women are raped on the trip.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi sends wows to unsafe cities and told to talk to every human,
and to IGNORE any urges or impulses to the contrary
(IGNORE REVELATION),
and some are robbed, assaulted and/or rape.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi sends wows to cities, with unscreened corps overseeing them.
One group of wows is MURDERED by the corps overseer.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi has people on grounds. Some of them are women who are
drugged and raped by vpw, lcm, other higher-ups.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi has people on grounds. One man, faced with lcm having
sex with his (the man's) wife, screams that he can't compete
with lcm, then goes off and blows his brains out with a
bullet from a pistol.
Was THAT twi's fault?
I know they didn't put the gun in his hand and pull the trigger,
but are they FREE OF RESPONSIBILITY there?
=====
Come, come, Oldiesman!
Was
ANYTHING
EVER
EVER
EVER
twi's fault?
We've discussed over 5 years of things in front of you.
Can you name even ONE where you believe you can point to the
situation and say
"this was terrible, and twi was entirely (or MOSTLY) to blame.
twi took action they should not-which was criminal,
or failed to act when they should-which was criminal,
and if I had known at the time, I would have blamed twi
for such evil, unconscionable actions"?
Can you name ONE?
We can name MANY.
Obviously,
in each situation, there is blame to go around,
but Oldiesman always seems to skip over passing any
If the people running the program knew that it was a dangerous neighborhood, and there's a probability that someone would get hurt, but sent them anyway, then yeah, you lay blame on the people making the decision.
No, the organization's lassitude is almost
criminal. They placed the Christian where
they were likely to be robbed,
and gave them instructions to maximize
that chance.
How did the organization know the Christian would likely be robbed?
The Wow program was nothing more then a recruiting tool where TWI used us to recruit for them. I honestly was blessed to witness the word to people and sign them up for the class, but we payed our own way with no finacial support from TWI, we followed their program believing that the promise of 10 years spiritual growth and have an abundant life.
TWI did deceive us into thinking it was by revelation where we went and with whom we'd be living with.
When I was getting ready to go wow, I had saved $1000 and it was sugessted by my "leadership" that I only take $400 or go to Alaska or Hawaii. I decided I wanted to go to Alaska. When I went in the tent to sign up at the rock, I sat with D@n@ A. When I said I'd like to go to Alaska, he immediately brought his brother S.A. the limb coordinator of AK at the time. He asked me a few questions, one was what type of work I did. I said I had worked with Mainframe computers, so he said Juneau would be a good place for me as that was the State capitol and would have those type of comupters.
Guess where I was sent? Yup, Juneau. Did I find work with computers there? No. There was no work to be found in that field. I mostly worked in a pizza parlor. I'm not upset over this, but I don't see any revelation in it. I didn't have bad year either, in fact it was pretty good, but not without incedents.
One of my wow sisters who had been in TWI for several years and in the college div. was emotionally unstable imo, she had a "hair-trigger" temper and would "fly off the handle" at the least littlest things. She would slam doors, throw things and stomp around the house screaming at the rest of us for insginificant things mostly due to her imagination. It was very difficult living with her.
One day she bought a gun, we all raised an eyebrow to that but she was allowed to keep it, why I don't know. A few weeks later, in another emotional rage, she was threatening to kill herself with it, but the gun jammed so she threw it at the wall in a fit of rage, where it stuck in the pannelling. Amazing knowone was hurt or killed.
Well the limb leader said to send her home, when we called her parents to come and get her, we described her behavior to her Dad, he said something like, "oh she's always been like that". Another believer in town who had been in the college div with her said she was like that in there as well!
Where was the revelation in putting this woman with us? Or even sending her out wow to begin with? Where was the screening for this woman's emotional state? TWI put her and us in a dangerous situation imo.
And had Cowgirl acted on the revelation she received from God, not to talk with that guy, it would have been entirely to her credit, for acting upon God's warning.
But, does that mean the WOW program was wrong for asking her to preach the Word?
If that's the case, Mark 16:15 is wrong.
Should the WOW program be blamed if something ungodly happened to her?
Well, if she hadn't gone out WOW, it might not have happened to her, true enough.
On the other hand, maybe it could have happened elsewhere.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
23
38
24
9
Popular Days
Nov 2
39
Nov 1
24
Nov 3
15
Oct 18
14
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 23 posts
oldiesman 38 posts
WordWolf 24 posts
Oakspear 9 posts
Popular Days
Nov 2 2005
39 posts
Nov 1 2005
24 posts
Nov 3 2005
15 posts
Oct 18 2005
14 posts
hiway29
Ok I'll say it. The revelation was bogus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well I suppose then that TWI leaders should have then stated ...* SOME of you wonderfull volunteers will be placed by revelation from God into families and areas that will make it the single greatest year of spiritual growth of their lives....
The REST of you however are sh-t outta luck and will not have such an enjoyable experience.........
I know..I KNOW...they should have placed a disclaimer on our envelopes ... *the leader in charge of your placement...may or may NOT have been walking with God at the time of this decision....wow experiences may vary to the direct degree that your personal leaders decide to walk in the spirit....
There is a 40 % Probability of emotional trauma, 23 % chance of you actual will be caused physical harm, 20 % of you will suffer food privation .... 16 % of you will be physically assaulted .... some 7 % will be endure violent rape...while a few unfortuante 3% of you will be faced with an untimely death while involved in this program * ......this would have been a more honest aproach....no?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not asked biblically NOR does God request or require me to cut any slack or excuse people who steal kill and destroy from the flock in GOD`S name....Jesus didn`t cut any slack to the pharacees or money changers either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really hate the way that this new board lumps all of my seperate posts into one .... it really confuses things when seperate posts and thoughts are jumbled together<_<
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Great post and insight lilbit.... I rest of the group was as pure of motive as we were...only to then be deeply harmed when removed from our protective care....
I agree any GOOD recieved on the wow field or during participation in twi programs was because of God`s goodness in SPITE of the organization and doctrine practiced :(
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Which is a clear double-standard.
You blame twi and the bot for the ungodliness that happened.
Yet offer no thanks or congrats to twi and the bot for the godliness that happened.
Plain and simple hypocrisy.
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Samurai
Ya know, it seems to me that a major point is being missed here.
Death was against TWI's agenda. Death was against everything TWI told us could be ours if we just believed, obeyed and all that hoopla.
If TWI didn't believe that they had personal culpability (sp) in the deaths of all the individuals, either WOW or Corps or LEAD then the deaths of each individual would have been handled differently.
The bottom line IS not and never WAS could accidents be avoided or simple human error.
The overall line was that the individual NEVER mattered to TWI.
TWI mattered to TWI and that was all the counted; the personal agenda of TWI.
For an organization that claimed they celebrated and revered the word, the word, the word, they sure ignored those verses where Jesus said that the riches of the world was not comparable to ONE soul; COUNT IT, ONE ONE ONE Soul.
For a "biblical" ministry that touted the teaching that Jesus would have died solely for you cause he loved you that much, that the person was worth all that and more...
Well, they negated this words when the people of TWI put their hearts, minds, and actual lives out on the line and their lives were snuffed out. Their lights were permanently dimmed in this world.
And what did they get for it??
A nice sweeping under the rug if they could do it; if you weren't high profile enough.
AND if you were high profile enough, then it was YOUR fault you died; you were out of fellowship, you missed revelation, you weren't going out by two-sies oozies...
These people lost their lives in the line of service in TWI. What was doen for them???
Were you allowed to cry for them, as the New Testament Saints cried for the loss of theirs? Were you allowed to celebrate their lives and tell of their exploits and bemoan the loss of their lives? Were they held up for respect and admiration, after 'having laid it all on the line?'
No.
Many, if not all of them became anathema.
Because it didn't fit TWI's agenda of health, wealth and prosperity. The individual, God's people, God's children, were not good enough, and although worth MORE than all the riches of the world, were not good enough to be treated with the proper respect and dignity GIVEN to good people everywhere.
These people were sacrificed to the cross of TWI, oh no wait, TWI doesn't do crosses, they were sacrificed on the altar, oh wait, no altars..
Hey, TWI likes mantles...
They were sacrificed on the Mantle of the Man of God and erased into obscurity forever.
It's not human error, it's not being falliable or infalliable, it is the nature of the beast of the organization was (and still is) is that the individual is of little to no consequence as long as the mother machine gets what it needs to keep running.
All these kids who died in the line of fire should have been memoralized and not demonized or blamed.
But TWI couldn't do that NOR could it admit that it made mistakes in dealing with the very people's lives who whole heartedly trusted TWI and gave their lives over.
And there's no excuse for what happened to them and the way their memories were treated afterwards.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Damned right Samurai ... those poor people mysteriously just dropped off the radar. Most never learned of their friends fate.
It could have been any one of us who whole heartedly trusted our lives to these people in the hopes of the spiritual growth and understanding, the prosperity promised if we would but carefully follow their instructions :(
Our trust was betrayed...it cost some more than others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Outin88.
The Wow program was nothing more then a recruiting tool where TWI used us to recruit for them. I honestly was blessed to witness the word to people and sign them up for the class, but we payed our own way with no finacial support from TWI, we followed their program believing that the promise of 10 years spiritual growth and have an abundant life.
TWI did deceive us into thinking it was by revelation where we went and with whom we'd be living with.
When I was getting ready to go wow, I had saved $1000 and it was sugessted by my "leadership" that I only take $400 or go to Alaska or Hawaii. I decided I wanted to go to Alaska. When I went in the tent to sign up at the rock, I sat with D@n@ A. When I said I'd like to go to Alaska, he immediately brought his brother S.A. the limb coordinator of AK at the time. He asked me a few questions, one was what type of work I did. I said I had worked with Mainframe computers, so he said Juneau would be a good place for me as that was the State capitol and would have those type of comupters.
Guess where I was sent? Yup, Juneau. Did I find work with computers there? No. There was no work to be found in that field. I mostly worked in a pizza parlor. I'm not upset over this, but I don't see any revelation in it. I didn't have bad year either, in fact it was pretty good, but not without incedents.
One of my wow sisters who had been in TWI for several years and in the college div. was emotionally unstable imo, she had a "hair-trigger" temper and would "fly off the handle" at the least littlest things. She would slam doors, throw things and stomp around the house screaming at the rest of us for insginificant things mostly due to her imagination. It was very difficult living with her.
One day she bought a gun, we all raised an eyebrow to that but she was allowed to keep it, why I don't know. A few weeks later, in another emotional rage, she was threatening to kill herself with it, but the gun jammed so she threw it at the wall in a fit of rage, where it stuck in the pannelling. Amazing knowone was hurt or killed.
Well the limb leader said to send her home, when we called her parents to come and get her, we described her behavior to her Dad, he said something like, "oh she's always been like that". Another believer in town who had been in the college div with her said she was like that in there as well!
Where was the revelation in putting this woman with us? Or even sending her out wow to begin with? Where was the screening for this woman's emotional state? TWI put her and us in a dangerous situation imo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Outin88.
Samuri brings up some good points.
I was told the wow program was patterned somewhat by when Jesus sent out disciples, but Jesus gave them power and authority to heal and over devils etc. And these were discipled followers of Jesus, they were mature believers.
Luke 9:1,2 (NIV)
"1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick."
I'm also aware that those who live godly in Christ will be persecuted.
II Timothy 3 10-12 (NIV)
"10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."
Unfortunatley TWI taught us that "all believing equals receiving" and that we would have power for abundant living to live in prosperity and good health. So we naively thought we could do anything with our believeing. These doctrines are wrong imo, we can believe God when God tells us, but beleiving in our beleiving is erroneous. We can't believe for curtains to turn red just because we say so, imo.
We can believe God when He gives us revelation and instructions, like Elijah did.
I Kings 17:2-5 (NIV)
"2 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah: 3 "Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there."
5 So he did what the LORD had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook."
God tells Elijah to go to the brook, what was the believing action of Elijah? go to the brook.
God told Paul not to go to Jerusalem, what is the believing action? Don't go, right?
See, it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. We simply believe God when he tells us. But to believe in our believing can get us in some trouble. "Thank you God for the car I don't have", I'm beleiving, so you have to deliver! "I'm going to go to Alabama and I'm believing you will prosper me there". It's got to happen because of my believing, right? Wrong, not if it's not God's will.
Sorry, that is an erroneous doctrine TWI taught. And a lot of people got hurt because of it.
I heard Dale Sides say they God told him not to accept an assignment, but he followed TWI's orders instead and said it almost cost him his life! Oh but it was his believing or lack there of, right? Wrong!
I wonder how many folks had the thought not to go wow or go to a certain area, but the "leaders" told them it was where they needed to go and caused hurt or even death.
Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice, leads to people getting hurt.
Edited by Outin88.Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cowgirl
Out in 88, reading your post brought back an old memory especially in light of following leadership's orders and not heeding the voice of God.
I was 24yrs old, a Wow in Alberta and we were told to witness to "anything that moved." I was pretty naive and I literally took those words to heart. I began witnessing to a guy on a bus on my way home, my stop came up and I gave him by witnessing card, told him what time the fellowship would be that evening. Well that wasn't good enough for him, he followed me right off the bus to where I was living. I had this gut feeling right from the beginning BUT I had been told to ignore any gut feelings or feelings of fear and that God would protect me because I was doing his will.
I got to the outer door of the apartment and tried to quickly slip in but this guy forced his way in right behind me. I'm not a big person, but this guy was a pretty fair size, we ended up in a lobby and before I knew it he had me pinned up against the wall and was making sexual moves, I yelled at him and tried to push him off but I couldn't budge him, so I yelled out "In the name of Jesus Christ, get off of me!!" It worked, immediately he got off and left but I was left pretty shook up. I went into the apartment where my wow family was and told them the incident and their response was "Look how God protected you, cause you spoke His word, it could of been alot worse!" And I believed them even against my gut feeling which I now believe was God working in me not to talk to the guy in the first place.
Just another example of listening to leadership and leaving God out of the picture.
Cowgirl
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
It looks like you just missed the revelation...not to worry though God is still in business. ;)
I tend to agree with the WOWs. You were blessed for speaking/doing the Word and it could have been worse.
You're out there preaching the gospel to everything that moves (Mark 16:15)...
Then God warns you not to speak to this guy over there.. but, unfortunately, you missed it.
You speak to him anyway, he follows and harasses you, and, in a display of confident power and believing, you boldly say "In the name of Jesus Christ get off me"!
Immediately the guy backs off, astonished at the power of God you were exposing him to!
Sounds like a victorious story to me. :lol:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
And if he'd managed to assault and rape her,
it's because of her 'lack of believing.'
Finish the sentence.
Sounds like a f*ing stupid perspective that could have gotten her killed to me.
Sounds like a perspective with blinders to reality to me.
Sounds like how people WERE killed and raped in the field.
Sounds like I'm gonna get another snow job on how the
program's failures are not the fault of the program's implementors.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Yeah Cowgirl it was all YOUR fault don`tcha know?.....further more....as oldiesman has pointed out numerous times......according to twi doctrine......EVERYBODY who was beaten OR lost their lives ...OR were raped OR unfortunate enough to be murdered...while following leaderships *suggestions* it was entirely their fault as well....the little children who were molested by their tc`s gosh darn it, I guess they missed the revelation as well.
Shoot ... personally, I believe that we all missed the very biggest revelation from God of all I am afraid.....and that was..* to Stay the he ll away from twi and the false doctrines being used to enslave* in the FIRST place....
How very foolish we were.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
The Way providing some kind of medical insurance for their WOWs would have been nice.
For that matter, paying us some kind of weekly or monthly stipend would have freed us up considerably to concentrate on our divine mission - such would not have been unreasonable, and they had the resources to do so had the two sides to their brains functioned correctly.
Shortly after I arrived in Charlotte NC, I developed a ball-busting hernia which I had little choice but to live with for the remainder of the year, despite all the healing prayers to no avail. And when I did find a part time job (after literally starving for two weeks), it was one one where I had to get up at 3 Am each morning to walk to work 2 miles to get there (with a wooden leg no less - and yes - sometimes in the snow -lol). How much energy did I have by the afternoon, when I got out of work? Not a helluva alot.
Oh yeah, I got through the year, thanks only to God. But what did I accomplish in terms of actual "outreach"? Not much, amidst trying to survive like everyone else.
Had the Way actually provided at least some minimum of financial support to the WOWs whom they merely slapped together and "shipped out", I think the experiences and the results would have been far more impressive. Had this organisation made the "commitment" ( a commitment EQUAL to the weight of that which was required of us)of providing some kind of financial support to their representatives, perhaps they would become conscience enough to have attempted a far better job pre-screening folks to weed out the psychos, to better insure the success of their investment.
Other ministries and churches support the work of their missionaries.
They provide their missionaries with some kind of stipend, as to free them up to pursue their missionary work. But the Way, for the most part, did not.
The WOW program was a fine idea, but it was poorly thought through and implemented.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
But what's your take on when assaults, rapes and murders happen outside of twi?
Who do you blame then?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
WRONG.
Let's say someone is "at the end of their rope".
He drives to the edge of the Willis Avenue Bridge.
He walks halfway across the bridge, and steps over the
railing, prepared to jump and kill himself.
A Christian goes on a drive across the Willis Avenue Bridge.
He sees someone ready to jump.
He gets out and speaks to the jumper.
Eventually, he convinces the jumper to NOT jump,
and step back.
They go to a diner and speak for several hours.
The jumper hears much of God's Word and
decides to attend church with the Christian,
and eventually becomes a committed Christian.
Does the "jumper" say
"I am thankful for the Bridge and Tunnel Authority.
If not for them, there would have been no bridge
and I would not have gotten saved.
God bless his holy Bridge and Tunnel Authority!"
No, he does NOT.
The BTA was NOT of God, nor was it of the devil.
It was INCIDENTAL to the story.
The CHRISTIAN and his relationship to GOD
mattered.
Now, let's say there WAS no Christian there
and the man jumped.
You can blame the man for jumping.
You can blame the devil for driving him to do it.
You can't blame the Christians who DIDN'T go,
and you can't blame the Bridge and Tunnel
Authority for his death.
("Well, if there was no bridge, he couldn't have
jumped!")
======
If an organization just happens to put Christians
in places, that's incidental.
(He might be in town for a convention,
or his job may have relocated.)
========
So, when the wow program used completely
secular methods to place wows,
and dressed it in a holy veneer,
sometimes Christians ended up in the place
to bless others.
That's no different than a job relocation
putting them there.
They get no credit for using a holy veneer.
A SECULAR group moved some people around.
So, who gets credit?
GOD does, and the CHRISTIAN does.
============
Ok, the other side.
A Christian is sent by his job to work
in a virtual slum,
and he's robbed and sent to the hospital.
Is the company to blame?
YES.
(Them and the robbers, DUH, don't cloud the issue.)
The company failed to assess the situation properly,
and sent the employee into a dangerous place.
A Christian goes wow and is sent to a dangerous
neighborhood,
with strict instructions to open conversations with
EVERYONE they come across, ALWAYS.
If you tried that in MY neighborhood,
you'd EVENTUALLY talk to a violent criminal,
and the results would not be pleasant.
Whose fault would that be?
The wow is following his instructions correctly.
The fault is the PROGRAM.
They sent the person to an unsafe place
with unsafe instructions.
====
Last scenario.
A Christian is sent to my neighborhood and told to
open conversations with EVERYONE ALWAYS.
Eventually, they speak with an unhinged,
dangerous person, who attempts to rob them.
That Christian stands on their authority in Christ,
and the attacker leaves.
Does the organization get credit for a
"victorious" incident?
No, the organization's lassitude is almost
criminal. They placed the Christian where
they were likely to be robbed,
and gave them instructions to maximize
that chance.
The Christian transcended their instructions
and the CHRISTIAN and GOD get the
credit.
If the Christian had been beaten and
robbed for following those orders,
the Christian STILL wasn't to be blamed
for needed to pull a miracle from their pocket.
If an organization arranges things so that
the Christian's ONLY hope of avoiding
injury is to pull miracles,
the organization is at fault-
unless the organization has prepared by
ensuring the Christian can pull miracles
all the time, and is prepared to do so
here, expecting danger.
THAT
is why it is not a double-standard.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
You are misrepresenting my position, and putting words in my mouth. Nothing new.
I prefer to look at the facts in each situation, then judge accordingly.
But *you* seem to ALWAYS place the blame on twi, or the bot, or other representatives of twi, or anything twi related; the facts of a situation be damned.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
False Dilemma.
The only possible alternative to
a program where people were send places on a coin-toss
with insufficient training
and stupid instructions
and no financial backup
and no infrastructure on the field
was NO PROGRAM AT ALL.
Did I say that?
Who's misrepresenting WHO?
(Don't answer-we can read for ourselves.)
I would suggest a BETTER PROGRAM.
( DUH. )
Depends on the specifics, but I start with the assailant, rapist or murderer.
(And the devil. But I can't have him arrested. Let's presume I ALWAYS blame him even
if I don't mention him SPECIFICALLY.
I'll do the same for you.)
Then I see if the victim had no choice but to be in a situation where he/she was.
If so,
then whoever put them in that situation is responsible,
and possibly CRIMINALLY LIABLE.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Another way you might want to look at it is something like a baseball team you're fond of, winning the world series. Individual players help win the world series, and should be thanked, but it's also good that there's an organization there as part of the team that put the winning team together.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Every time someone has brought up a situation,
when it comes to you,
the organization is NEVER to be blamed.
twi puts people on an unsafe vehicle in unsafe travelling conditions,
requires they travel,
and they all end up in the hospital.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi requires women to hitchhike to and from an event location.
Some women are raped on the trip.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi sends wows to unsafe cities and told to talk to every human,
and to IGNORE any urges or impulses to the contrary
(IGNORE REVELATION),
and some are robbed, assaulted and/or rape.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi sends wows to cities, with unscreened corps overseeing them.
One group of wows is MURDERED by the corps overseer.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi has people on grounds. Some of them are women who are
drugged and raped by vpw, lcm, other higher-ups.
Oldiesman: not twi's fault.
twi has people on grounds. One man, faced with lcm having
sex with his (the man's) wife, screams that he can't compete
with lcm, then goes off and blows his brains out with a
bullet from a pistol.
Was THAT twi's fault?
I know they didn't put the gun in his hand and pull the trigger,
but are they FREE OF RESPONSIBILITY there?
=====
Come, come, Oldiesman!
Was
ANYTHING
EVER
EVER
EVER
twi's fault?
We've discussed over 5 years of things in front of you.
Can you name even ONE where you believe you can point to the
situation and say
"this was terrible, and twi was entirely (or MOSTLY) to blame.
twi took action they should not-which was criminal,
or failed to act when they should-which was criminal,
and if I had known at the time, I would have blamed twi
for such evil, unconscionable actions"?
Can you name ONE?
We can name MANY.
Obviously,
in each situation, there is blame to go around,
but Oldiesman always seems to skip over passing any
to twi. They get a FREE PASS.
Did I miss a situation?
Can you name ONE? Even ONE?
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
But, does that mean the WOW program was wrong for asking her to preach the Word?
If that's the case, Mark 16:15 is wrong.
Should the WOW program be blamed if something ungodly happened to her?
Well, if she hadn't gone out WOW, it might not have happened to her, true enough.
On the other hand, maybe it could have happened elsewhere.
In that event, who do you blame?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Even in an abstract example,
you can't help try to absolve the organization from wrongdoing.
They're sending people to a location for one year,
where they must find housing and jobs,
survive the year,
and speak about the Bible to people.
Is the organization so CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT that they don't
know EVERYTHING about the locations they are sending the
Christians to?
They could send them anywhere in the lower 48 fairly easily.
The decisions on WHERE to send them and WHO to send
should be made with exceeding care.
Instead,
whoever walked in with their money were sent,
and whoever walked in with their money was in charge of them,
and they were organized based on who had cars,
and they were sent to different locations on whims
or the toss of a coin.
What part of that, if you had KNOWN that was how it was done,
would have been ACCEPTABLE?
Sending emotionally-unstable people out wow?
Sending emotionally-unstable people in CHARGE of wows?
Dumping the wows wherever?
Claiming it was all by revelation when it was none of the kind?
Or,
would this have been UNACCEPTABLE had you known?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.