Thank you George for those details. Do you remember what year that was? That poor guy, the hell he must have been through even BEFORE he was murdered....doing his damndest to live by a flawed standard.....probably believed that it was his own fault that it wasn`t working....
IIRC this happened around January or February. Not real sure now. Been almost 26 years now (!).
And just what the hey was somebody as unstable as this corps gimp was doing in charge of 7 other people?
That was the real crime. Sending off unsuspecting sheep to be subjected to the actions of a whackjob like that.
And then for the ministry to hush the whole incident up and pretend that all was sweetness and light when we got back to New Knoxville. Could it get anymore dishonest? And this was hardly the only such incident. What a morally bankrupt institution. Utterly disgusting...
And just what the hey was somebody as unstable as this corps gimp was doing in charge of 7 other people? That was the real crime. Sending off unsuspecting sheep to be subjected to the actions of a whackjob like that.
Unless the director of the WOW program or the twi bot knew of the dangerous unstablity of this person, how can they be blamed for this shooting?
It's about as lame an excuse as one might try to blame the firearms manufacturer for the misuse of firearms. But some do try...
Because twi bot promised us that we could trust them with our lives...twi bot told us that if we would just make the commitment....GOD would bless us....
We were told repeatedly that we must trust their judgement and insight...that God would work through them to put us in the best place....
We were promised that twi leaders used revelation to make these assignments.....we were promised that we would be serving God in an area of need....
Given what we know happened this obviously was not the case......that leaves us two options...A ) twi lied outragiously ....or B ) wi leaders recieved their revelation from a source OTHER than God...
ALSO....It seems to me that the organization/programs were seriously flawed if that fc was able to get as far as his interim year in the corpes without anybody becoming concerned about his mental state...and potential harm to others....
Kindda like repeatedly giving pedophiles (some even known to the bot) fellowships and childrens fellowships that placed folks under the power and authority of these predators...GEEEZE talk about a LACK of spiritual insight or discernment abilities <_<
Because they claimed that the assignments were all by revelation...
Even if they were, how could the bot guarantee that the people who volunteered would always walk in godliness?
Or, how could the bot guarantee that some wouldn't display horrible ungodliness, at various times?
Kindda like repeatedly giving pedophiles (some even known to the bot) fellowships and childrens fellowships that placed folks under the power and authority of these predators...GEEEZE talk about a LACK of spiritual insight or discernment abilities <_<
It is hardly like it.
If the bot knowingly gave known pedophiles fellowships and children's fellowships, then yes, those on the bot making that decision should be blamed.
But how does that compare with a shooting incident that the bot knows nothing about until after the fact?
It was a rediculous claim for them to have made, no doubt...........The twi leaders had no business claiming that they were working by revelation and inspiration ...requiring our implicit trust and obediance based on that authority...... the incidents of death listed are but examples of how tragically wrong they were.
They screwed up big time, but couldn`t let people find out because it was glaring proof of the errors of their every teaching and premiss.
Irst thing at end of roa when you open your envolopes the limb co-ordinator said to me"want to change families? your wow family has three cars and this family has none" Ilooked at him and said you are the man of god ,you tellme.needless to say I stayed in my original wow famiy.And yes it was a good year.
Since we're telling W.O.W. stories, I'd just like to say that I had a wonderful W.OW. year in Houston, TX. (1983-84) My family coordinator was a great guy. He was on his interim year and was deeply committed to God and His Word, had a heart of gold, and was wise beyond his years. We ran a couple of classes, won about a dozen converts, learned a lot about living and people and spiritual oddities, and generally had a good time. For me it was a year of great personal and spiritual growth. I think it was too for Jacques, who is, I believe still in TWI. I don't know if our sisters Linda and Frances enjoyed it as much as we did, but we had no major problems.
I know other people had crappy W.O.W. experiences, and some were unspeakable. I think it had a lot to do with the quality of the leadership. I had a great coordinator and he had one too. The first half of the year, all the W.O.W.'s were overseen by Bob M***bito, who seemed to be a down to earth guy interested in teaching us how to walk in love.
For me at least, the W.O.W. program lived up to its billing and I'm glad I went. There were doors opened that year that I failed to walk through, and I will always regret that. But it was still the best year of my life thus far.
Yeah well I guess that means that God just must have liked you a laleo just a little better than the folks that were unfortunate enough to be placed with the *bad* leadership....Jerry gets a good year, Georges wow buddy in ala is murdered by his leadership .....laleo gets a good year .... the wow that came to my town dies in a car wreck.....Some are fortunate enough to have God smile on them and get sent to miami ....and have a great year....others get sent to fargo and are so miserable that they have to take out their anger on the rest of the believers.....
Shoot, I had one ok year and one that was an absolute nightmare ....I suppose that God protected me one year and figured that I wasn`t worthey to be blessed the next.
I have a problem with folks saying that God was being consulted in our placements and in charge of the program......that God blessed them....when across the country others were placed in harms way by the same leadership claiming to be placing us by revelation....telling us we were going where God needed us and would bless us...that we would be doing his will....and grow ten years .......insisting that we trust them implicitly ....only to then be placed in untenable positions...it is like saying that some who volunteered weren`t worthey of Gods favor or blessings.....some were rewarded for their commitment, others were betrayed.
I understand and actually agree with you Jerry, that the type of year one had being dependent mainly on who your leaders were....but it shouldn`t have been so if God were in charge as they claimed .....EVERYBODY would have been worthey of good leadership ...EVERYBODY would have been assigned to a great location.....EVERYBODY who participated worthey great blessings and EVERYBODY worthey of God`s protection.....
Either twi leaders lied about how much imput God allowed....or God wanted to bless only some of us and didn`t give a damn about others.
Generally speaking, average, run of of the mill, peaceful God loving people don't wake up one day and murder someone.
It is a great leap of illogic to think that this is what happened.
Usually people escalate in violence. They may start out being verbally violent, yelling, cursing, calling names and then they graduate in that violence. They throw things, kick the dog, push people, then graduate that into hitting people.
Come on, we see it all the time in abusive relationships or hear about it. People warn females to get out of abusive relationships before it's too late, ie, before they get killed.
So ya, the BOT were responsible to know exactly what or who was going out on the WOW Field, especially someone who had been in the corps. They should have had his ENTIRE background there on paper from the one or two Reverend references he needed with his corps application, to his behavior right there in the corps.
Normal average day people can tell when they got a time bomb on their hands. How about people who claim to know what's best, set themselves as leaders and spiritual guides over other people? They shown have known, they should have seen the handwriting on the wall.
Then never forget their famous motto, "All Nine All the Time." Weren't they getting reception the day they assigned him a family to be in charge of??
All I know is, they blew it and they knew it and that is why when things like this happened, it was swept under the rug and never admitted to because they knew it flew in the face of what they told everyone else and would lose recruits by the hundreds.
I was young when I went out WOW. IF that had ever happened to me, VP, LCM, and everyone BOT would have had to deal with my father who would have grabbed his own shotgun and gone down to HQ demanding some answers and that right quick. They would have found out what it would have felt like to be on the receiving end of that and what it was like to be at someone else's mercy.
If my children ever joined a punk organization like TWI and anything similiar ever happened to them, or if they were drugged and raped, **** the devil, their biggest problem would be the parent (ME) coming for retribution and justice, my own justice.
Not responsible, what a calloused fluff off of responsibilty.
When you promise spiritual growth and someone ends up with a tombstone because of one your 'trained' leaders, you just better bet your responsible, in every way possible, you are responsible for the death of that young man.
When you promise spiritual growth and someone ends up with a tombstone because of one your 'trained' leaders, you just better bet your responsible, in every way possible, you are responsible for the death of that young man.
And sadly the WOW program is not the only place where people died because of TWI's tactics. But that's another talk show isn't it?
The culpability of TWI is WAY beyond only the legalities. God help them all.
I know that other organizations/businesses are held legaly liable forANY harm that their leaders/employees cause. TWI was scared of getting their arses sued off, if people found out just how culpable they were.
Our county here was just held legally liable to the tune of 500,000 plus court costs for the deaths of two children when the car their aunt was driving was swept off the road in a flood.....NO the county didn`t push the car into the rain swollen river or hold the childrens heads under water (no twi didn`t fire the gun that held the bullet) HOWEVER the county WAS aware of the tendency of this particular area for the river to sweep over the road.....(TWI had to or should have known the tendancies of thier leader in training were as well...but he probably was able to achieve the results they wanted) our county leaders solution was to place warning signes out when flooding was dangerous...(twi`s solution was to enroll troubled souls in ever more participation , assuming that God would heal/cover) ......problem was that THAT particular night the employees placed the signes too close to the flooding so that when an unsuspecting motorist came around the bend and over the bridge doing the speed limit of 55 ....it was tragically too late....our county will pay and rightfully so for the harm caused.
TWI was legally culpable for placing people in harms way countless times....just look at the lead accident.........they always managed to strong arm people into not seeking legal recourse through intimidation and manipulation.
It is a thorny issue. I suspect there was a lot of behind the scenes consultation involved in deciding who got sent where. Kind of like at political convention. The earlier you declare, the better connected your local leaders are, the more they campaingn for you, the better assignment you get.
I was indeed blessed, but looking at it from an impirical perspective, perhaps I can see why and fill in some blanks. I went W.O.W. because my fiance (now wife of almost 21 years) went first. She took the class first, then, while I was taking it, she was preparing to go WOW. She told me I couldn't marry her unless I could be her spiritual leader. She already had a one year head start and then she went WOW. I figured the only way I could catch up was to try to do the same thing at home, so I started witnessing like crazy on campus. I couldn't do the 20 hours a week or whatever it was at the time because I was a full time student, so I think I tried for 8 or 10. Can't quite remember now.
Aaanny way, I spent a lot of time witnessing on campus, got some people saved and signed up for the Class. That endeared me to the local "Twig area coordinator" (we were too small for a branch) and twig coordinators. Then, in spring of my senior year I decided to go W.O.W. myself. There was plenty of time for me to prepare and plenty of time for my local twig area coordinator, a great guy by the name of Dan M, to maybe put in a good word for me with the higher ups in New Knoxville. I say maybe because I have never asked him if he did. It's more likely that that recommendation came from the limb coordinator, who was and is also a genuinely great guy who has been a blessing to many for a long time. (GLC).
So, I got a great assignment. Maybe if I had only decided to go WOW the week before ROA, and didn't have anyone from my area who would vouch for me as an upstanding Wayfer, I would have gotten sent to Fargo and been paired with some psycho. maybe. So I don't think I had a great year because I'm special, or that God loves me more, but perhaps the human politics of the ministry worked in my favor because I was serious about outreach and had already proved that I could "undershepherd" people. What's that old saying about luck and preparation?
So then you believe that nobody in twi ever received revelation or godly inspiration?
NOBODY said that...... you manipulator of words .....what we DID say was that TWI LIED when they told us that they made wow placements by revelation.
we ALSO said that .......proof would indicate that God DIDN`T protect ALLl of us ....and it is a fallacy to say that the majority of us enjoyed the program....as laleo stated
Well, we just disagree. :lol:
Damned right we will.
Agreed Jerry, luck and preperation, our willingness to follow the program through in spite of difficulties played a huge part in the results....
Some of us got the sh!t beat out of us in SPITE of our best efforts to do all of the above...as is witnessed by the vast difference of experience in my first and second wow years....
My point is.... If God had been in charge AS we were told....all of us would have been protected AND enjoyed the program.....as it was.... results varied from the greatest year of ones life....to being the death of another....
I can excuse and forgive mistakes, I can understand and excuse human error....I do not feel that humans should be infallible......but DON`T try to tell me that God was willing to bless and protect you and laleo and others ...... and not the boy who was murdered...or the wow who witnessed to me who died....
I am really sorry for the folks that had hard WOW years. I know the people that I undershepered to go WOW had a he!! of a time on the feild. Drugs,alcohol and folk sleeping together. When I was in Louisanna, I recieved calls fron N.Mexico from one of my "kids" and it was horrible what was going on. I couldn't keep her on the feild. (Thank God for that) I think the continued family dynamic would have done more damage spitirually then just leaving.
What I realize now was I was a cult within a cult. Cult of personality. Alot of folks got involved in TWI because I loved them, supported, protected them and they thought that is what TWI was all about. What a rude awakening when they went WOW or I left the area. I was the best codependent and good at what I did.
I wanted desperately to be like JC and did my part in carrying folks. Looking back I now see that all of us were doomed for failure because the system (PFAL) did not work when s#it happens. Some recognized it sooner than others and left.
I do know this...God is God with or without a system to work in. If there where any "signs, miracles or wonders" it is because God is... and it had nothing to do with TWI or the WOW program. Why some got results and others didn't ...who knows.
Agreed Jerry, luck and preperation, our willingness to follow the program through in spite of difficulties played a huge part in the results....
Some of us got the sh!t beat out of us in SPITE of our best efforts to do all of the above...as is witnessed by the vast difference of experience in my first and second wow years....
My point is.... If God had been in charge AS we were told....all of us would have been protected AND enjoyed the program.....as it was.... results varied from the greatest year of ones life....to being the death of another....
I can excuse and forgive mistakes, I can understand and excuse human error....I do not feel that humans should be infallible......but DON`T try to tell me that God was willing to bless and protect you and laleo and others ...... and not the boy who was murdered...or the wow who witnessed to me who died....
I wouldn't dream of it. I'm sorry about the death of the WOW who witnessed to you. Now that my memory is jogged, I recall that there was a whole family of WOW's who died at the very beginning of the year I went. Bob M told us about in in our first meeting. They were travelling to their area and were hit head-on by a drunk driver and were all killed. He just said that somebody must have missed revelation. We were all shaken by the news, and I never really understood it at the time. Of course, I put it in the back of my mind and went on....I suppose those poor souls and people like them are the martyrs of The Way Ministry. Sad doesn't begin to describe such tragedies...
Jerry, thank you for your civility...... my frustration certainly isn`t with you. It is this whole mentality of others that simply because they personally had a good time....God was in charge.
Damn it....Jerry that is SO sad about those poor people....imagine the honesty the eagerness with which each of those earnest folks volunteered to give their utmost for HIS highest for ONE year of their lives....imagine their enthusiasm as they embarked on their journey....fired up expecting to be ambassadors for christ....eagerly anticipating the miracles and groath of ten years......expecting to be on the front lines of the spiritual battle....determined to strike a blow for God against the ruler of darkness......only to be met with death.
and THEN the real tradgedy .... is that then ...... those innocent wows themselves were blamed....*somebody must have missed revelation* ....geeze o pete .... that is just sick.
It could have been you or me that had been assigned to the family ...innocently riding as passengers...oblivious to the impending danger and death....
TWI was legally culpable for placing people in harms way countless times....just look at the lead accident.........they always managed to strong arm people into not seeking legal recourse through intimidation and manipulation.
I don't look at it as deliberately placing people in harm's way. But, if someone wanted to sue them if they thought they'd get financial recompense for damages, it might make sense depending on the circumstances.
This reminds me of my cooperative. I was on the Board of Directors, and was protected by insurance, in the event someone falls on ice or whatnot and sues the Corporation and me for damages.
Was it my intent that the person fall and hurt themselves? No! Same may be said of the bot. Was it their intent that folks got hurt, raped, murdered? I trow not :lol: Everything is *intent*.
But it is possible that the Corporation *can be* legally held responsible for damages depending on the individual circumstances, which is why businesses have insurance policies, and specific officers & directors insurance policies to protect themselves individually as directors.
Oh, I don't know, screened a little better. Pulled people off at the first sign of trouble. Gee, practiced some oversight :huh:
Even if they did all that at all times, their efforts still wouldn't have guaranteed safety at all times.
Edited by oldiesman
So then you believe that nobody in twi ever received revelation or godly inspiration?
NOBODY said that...... you manipulator of words .....what we DID say was that TWI LIED when they told us that they made wow placements by revelation.
Cool did suggest that revelation was bogus, yes. Go back and read what Cool posted before you accuse me of manipulation.
And how do you know they lied? Are you saying that there was never any revelation/inspiration during WOW placements? How can you possibly know all that?
But if you said they lacked the prophetic skills to know when some of these tragic events would happen, I would agree with you.
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rascal
Thank you George for those details. Do you remember what year that was? That poor guy, the hell he must have been through even BEFORE he was murdered....doing his damndest to live by a flawed standard.....probably believed that it was his own fault that it wasn`t working....
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George Aar
Rascal,
The year was '79/'80.
IIRC this happened around January or February. Not real sure now. Been almost 26 years now (!).
And just what the hey was somebody as unstable as this corps gimp was doing in charge of 7 other people?
That was the real crime. Sending off unsuspecting sheep to be subjected to the actions of a whackjob like that.
And then for the ministry to hush the whole incident up and pretend that all was sweetness and light when we got back to New Knoxville. Could it get anymore dishonest? And this was hardly the only such incident. What a morally bankrupt institution. Utterly disgusting...
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oldiesman
It's about as lame an excuse as one might try to blame the firearms manufacturer for the misuse of firearms. But some do try...
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Oakspear
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rascal
Because twi bot promised us that we could trust them with our lives...twi bot told us that if we would just make the commitment....GOD would bless us....
We were told repeatedly that we must trust their judgement and insight...that God would work through them to put us in the best place....
We were promised that twi leaders used revelation to make these assignments.....we were promised that we would be serving God in an area of need....
Given what we know happened this obviously was not the case......that leaves us two options...A ) twi lied outragiously ....or B ) wi leaders recieved their revelation from a source OTHER than God...
ALSO....It seems to me that the organization/programs were seriously flawed if that fc was able to get as far as his interim year in the corpes without anybody becoming concerned about his mental state...and potential harm to others....
Kindda like repeatedly giving pedophiles (some even known to the bot) fellowships and childrens fellowships that placed folks under the power and authority of these predators...GEEEZE talk about a LACK of spiritual insight or discernment abilities <_<
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oldiesman
Or, how could the bot guarantee that some wouldn't display horrible ungodliness, at various times?
It is hardly like it.If the bot knowingly gave known pedophiles fellowships and children's fellowships, then yes, those on the bot making that decision should be blamed.
But how does that compare with a shooting incident that the bot knows nothing about until after the fact?
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rascal
It was a rediculous claim for them to have made, no doubt...........The twi leaders had no business claiming that they were working by revelation and inspiration ...requiring our implicit trust and obediance based on that authority...... the incidents of death listed are but examples of how tragically wrong they were.
They screwed up big time, but couldn`t let people find out because it was glaring proof of the errors of their every teaching and premiss.
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WordWolf
They promised the assignments were by revelation.
Thus, the assignments were NEVER to be questioned, just accepted.
In your mind, it would have been fine for a wow to have questioned
openly whether or not his "leader" was competent,
but in the world we lived in,
this would have produced a lecture, censure and
kicking the questioner off the wow field, if they kept asking
questions.
twi CLAIMED to operate in a way that questions were allowed.
However, reality miserably failed to match up to promises there
(surprise surprise!)
======
IF the bot was operating HONESTLY,
they either would never have made such outrageous
claims- but they did ANYWAY to stifle dissent,
or they really SHOULD have done them all by
revelation-
which would have weeded ALL the bad volunteers out.
Since there was virtually no "quality control"
we know this didn't happen.
Want to join? Got your money?
Ok, here's your red armband. Make sure to
attend your preliminary meetings.
=====
The claims they made were not of a financial organization
like a bank. They chose to make lofty claims, and demanded
to be believed. They thus chose a high level of responsibility
and performance-which they never had any ability to
deliver, and kept THAT information a SECRET.
In other words,
if they could not guarantee safety on a large-scale program,
they had no business RUNNING IT.
Even the atheists know that!
Either run it at the level you can do it right,
or don't run it.
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frank123lol
Irst thing at end of roa when you open your envolopes the limb co-ordinator said to me"want to change families? your wow family has three cars and this family has none" Ilooked at him and said you are the man of god ,you tellme.needless to say I stayed in my original wow famiy.And yes it was a good year.
Revelation my butt.....
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
oldies
when is the last time you had acup of coffee?
can't you see what all these folks are saying?
revalation my foot!
they were and are a bunch of phonies.
can't you see it?
or are you a closet innie?
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Jbarrax
Well, for the record...
Since we're telling W.O.W. stories, I'd just like to say that I had a wonderful W.OW. year in Houston, TX. (1983-84) My family coordinator was a great guy. He was on his interim year and was deeply committed to God and His Word, had a heart of gold, and was wise beyond his years. We ran a couple of classes, won about a dozen converts, learned a lot about living and people and spiritual oddities, and generally had a good time. For me it was a year of great personal and spiritual growth. I think it was too for Jacques, who is, I believe still in TWI. I don't know if our sisters Linda and Frances enjoyed it as much as we did, but we had no major problems.
I know other people had crappy W.O.W. experiences, and some were unspeakable. I think it had a lot to do with the quality of the leadership. I had a great coordinator and he had one too. The first half of the year, all the W.O.W.'s were overseen by Bob M***bito, who seemed to be a down to earth guy interested in teaching us how to walk in love.
For me at least, the W.O.W. program lived up to its billing and I'm glad I went. There were doors opened that year that I failed to walk through, and I will always regret that. But it was still the best year of my life thus far.
Peace
JerryB
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rascal
Yeah well I guess that means that God just must have liked you a laleo just a little better than the folks that were unfortunate enough to be placed with the *bad* leadership....Jerry gets a good year, Georges wow buddy in ala is murdered by his leadership .....laleo gets a good year .... the wow that came to my town dies in a car wreck.....Some are fortunate enough to have God smile on them and get sent to miami ....and have a great year....others get sent to fargo and are so miserable that they have to take out their anger on the rest of the believers.....
Shoot, I had one ok year and one that was an absolute nightmare ....I suppose that God protected me one year and figured that I wasn`t worthey to be blessed the next.
I have a problem with folks saying that God was being consulted in our placements and in charge of the program......that God blessed them....when across the country others were placed in harms way by the same leadership claiming to be placing us by revelation....telling us we were going where God needed us and would bless us...that we would be doing his will....and grow ten years .......insisting that we trust them implicitly ....only to then be placed in untenable positions...it is like saying that some who volunteered weren`t worthey of Gods favor or blessings.....some were rewarded for their commitment, others were betrayed.
I understand and actually agree with you Jerry, that the type of year one had being dependent mainly on who your leaders were....but it shouldn`t have been so if God were in charge as they claimed .....EVERYBODY would have been worthey of good leadership ...EVERYBODY would have been assigned to a great location.....EVERYBODY who participated worthey great blessings and EVERYBODY worthey of God`s protection.....
Either twi leaders lied about how much imput God allowed....or God wanted to bless only some of us and didn`t give a damn about others.
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Samurai
Generally speaking, average, run of of the mill, peaceful God loving people don't wake up one day and murder someone.
It is a great leap of illogic to think that this is what happened.
Usually people escalate in violence. They may start out being verbally violent, yelling, cursing, calling names and then they graduate in that violence. They throw things, kick the dog, push people, then graduate that into hitting people.
Come on, we see it all the time in abusive relationships or hear about it. People warn females to get out of abusive relationships before it's too late, ie, before they get killed.
So ya, the BOT were responsible to know exactly what or who was going out on the WOW Field, especially someone who had been in the corps. They should have had his ENTIRE background there on paper from the one or two Reverend references he needed with his corps application, to his behavior right there in the corps.
Normal average day people can tell when they got a time bomb on their hands. How about people who claim to know what's best, set themselves as leaders and spiritual guides over other people? They shown have known, they should have seen the handwriting on the wall.
Then never forget their famous motto, "All Nine All the Time." Weren't they getting reception the day they assigned him a family to be in charge of??
All I know is, they blew it and they knew it and that is why when things like this happened, it was swept under the rug and never admitted to because they knew it flew in the face of what they told everyone else and would lose recruits by the hundreds.
I was young when I went out WOW. IF that had ever happened to me, VP, LCM, and everyone BOT would have had to deal with my father who would have grabbed his own shotgun and gone down to HQ demanding some answers and that right quick. They would have found out what it would have felt like to be on the receiving end of that and what it was like to be at someone else's mercy.
If my children ever joined a punk organization like TWI and anything similiar ever happened to them, or if they were drugged and raped, **** the devil, their biggest problem would be the parent (ME) coming for retribution and justice, my own justice.
Not responsible, what a calloused fluff off of responsibilty.
When you promise spiritual growth and someone ends up with a tombstone because of one your 'trained' leaders, you just better bet your responsible, in every way possible, you are responsible for the death of that young man.
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Shellon
And sadly the WOW program is not the only place where people died because of TWI's tactics. But that's another talk show isn't it?
The culpability of TWI is WAY beyond only the legalities. God help them all.
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oldiesman
That's like saying they claimed they were able to eliminate ungodliness. :lol: :lol:
Having coffee right now, Cool.And no I am not a closet innie!!
So then you believe that nobody in twi ever received revelation or godly inspiration?
Well, we just disagree. :lol:
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rascal
I know that other organizations/businesses are held legaly liable forANY harm that their leaders/employees cause. TWI was scared of getting their arses sued off, if people found out just how culpable they were.
Our county here was just held legally liable to the tune of 500,000 plus court costs for the deaths of two children when the car their aunt was driving was swept off the road in a flood.....NO the county didn`t push the car into the rain swollen river or hold the childrens heads under water (no twi didn`t fire the gun that held the bullet) HOWEVER the county WAS aware of the tendency of this particular area for the river to sweep over the road.....(TWI had to or should have known the tendancies of thier leader in training were as well...but he probably was able to achieve the results they wanted) our county leaders solution was to place warning signes out when flooding was dangerous...(twi`s solution was to enroll troubled souls in ever more participation , assuming that God would heal/cover) ......problem was that THAT particular night the employees placed the signes too close to the flooding so that when an unsuspecting motorist came around the bend and over the bridge doing the speed limit of 55 ....it was tragically too late....our county will pay and rightfully so for the harm caused.
TWI was legally culpable for placing people in harms way countless times....just look at the lead accident.........they always managed to strong arm people into not seeking legal recourse through intimidation and manipulation.
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Oakspear
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Jbarrax
Rascal:
It is a thorny issue. I suspect there was a lot of behind the scenes consultation involved in deciding who got sent where. Kind of like at political convention. The earlier you declare, the better connected your local leaders are, the more they campaingn for you, the better assignment you get.
I was indeed blessed, but looking at it from an impirical perspective, perhaps I can see why and fill in some blanks. I went W.O.W. because my fiance (now wife of almost 21 years) went first. She took the class first, then, while I was taking it, she was preparing to go WOW. She told me I couldn't marry her unless I could be her spiritual leader. She already had a one year head start and then she went WOW. I figured the only way I could catch up was to try to do the same thing at home, so I started witnessing like crazy on campus. I couldn't do the 20 hours a week or whatever it was at the time because I was a full time student, so I think I tried for 8 or 10. Can't quite remember now.
Aaanny way, I spent a lot of time witnessing on campus, got some people saved and signed up for the Class. That endeared me to the local "Twig area coordinator" (we were too small for a branch) and twig coordinators. Then, in spring of my senior year I decided to go W.O.W. myself. There was plenty of time for me to prepare and plenty of time for my local twig area coordinator, a great guy by the name of Dan M, to maybe put in a good word for me with the higher ups in New Knoxville. I say maybe because I have never asked him if he did. It's more likely that that recommendation came from the limb coordinator, who was and is also a genuinely great guy who has been a blessing to many for a long time. (GLC).
So, I got a great assignment. Maybe if I had only decided to go WOW the week before ROA, and didn't have anyone from my area who would vouch for me as an upstanding Wayfer, I would have gotten sent to Fargo and been paired with some psycho. maybe. So I don't think I had a great year because I'm special, or that God loves me more, but perhaps the human politics of the ministry worked in my favor because I was serious about outreach and had already proved that I could "undershepherd" people. What's that old saying about luck and preparation?
Peace
JerryB
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rascal
Oldies said:
So then you believe that nobody in twi ever received revelation or godly inspiration?
NOBODY said that...... you manipulator of words .....what we DID say was that TWI LIED when they told us that they made wow placements by revelation.
we ALSO said that .......proof would indicate that God DIDN`T protect ALLl of us ....and it is a fallacy to say that the majority of us enjoyed the program....as laleo stated
Well, we just disagree. :lol:
Damned right we will.
Agreed Jerry, luck and preperation, our willingness to follow the program through in spite of difficulties played a huge part in the results....
Some of us got the sh!t beat out of us in SPITE of our best efforts to do all of the above...as is witnessed by the vast difference of experience in my first and second wow years....
My point is.... If God had been in charge AS we were told....all of us would have been protected AND enjoyed the program.....as it was.... results varied from the greatest year of ones life....to being the death of another....
I can excuse and forgive mistakes, I can understand and excuse human error....I do not feel that humans should be infallible......but DON`T try to tell me that God was willing to bless and protect you and laleo and others ...... and not the boy who was murdered...or the wow who witnessed to me who died....
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lilbit
I am really sorry for the folks that had hard WOW years. I know the people that I undershepered to go WOW had a he!! of a time on the feild. Drugs,alcohol and folk sleeping together. When I was in Louisanna, I recieved calls fron N.Mexico from one of my "kids" and it was horrible what was going on. I couldn't keep her on the feild. (Thank God for that) I think the continued family dynamic would have done more damage spitirually then just leaving.
What I realize now was I was a cult within a cult. Cult of personality. Alot of folks got involved in TWI because I loved them, supported, protected them and they thought that is what TWI was all about. What a rude awakening when they went WOW or I left the area. I was the best codependent and good at what I did.
I wanted desperately to be like JC and did my part in carrying folks. Looking back I now see that all of us were doomed for failure because the system (PFAL) did not work when s#it happens. Some recognized it sooner than others and left.
I do know this...God is God with or without a system to work in. If there where any "signs, miracles or wonders" it is because God is... and it had nothing to do with TWI or the WOW program. Why some got results and others didn't ...who knows.
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Jbarrax
I wouldn't dream of it. I'm sorry about the death of the WOW who witnessed to you. Now that my memory is jogged, I recall that there was a whole family of WOW's who died at the very beginning of the year I went. Bob M told us about in in our first meeting. They were travelling to their area and were hit head-on by a drunk driver and were all killed. He just said that somebody must have missed revelation. We were all shaken by the news, and I never really understood it at the time. Of course, I put it in the back of my mind and went on....I suppose those poor souls and people like them are the martyrs of The Way Ministry. Sad doesn't begin to describe such tragedies...
Peace
JerryB
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rascal
Jerry, thank you for your civility...... my frustration certainly isn`t with you. It is this whole mentality of others that simply because they personally had a good time....God was in charge.
Damn it....Jerry that is SO sad about those poor people....imagine the honesty the eagerness with which each of those earnest folks volunteered to give their utmost for HIS highest for ONE year of their lives....imagine their enthusiasm as they embarked on their journey....fired up expecting to be ambassadors for christ....eagerly anticipating the miracles and groath of ten years......expecting to be on the front lines of the spiritual battle....determined to strike a blow for God against the ruler of darkness......only to be met with death.
and THEN the real tradgedy .... is that then ...... those innocent wows themselves were blamed....*somebody must have missed revelation* ....geeze o pete .... that is just sick.
It could have been you or me that had been assigned to the family ...innocently riding as passengers...oblivious to the impending danger and death....
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oldiesman
This reminds me of my cooperative. I was on the Board of Directors, and was protected by insurance, in the event someone falls on ice or whatnot and sues the Corporation and me for damages.
Was it my intent that the person fall and hurt themselves? No! Same may be said of the bot. Was it their intent that folks got hurt, raped, murdered? I trow not :lol: Everything is *intent*.
But it is possible that the Corporation *can be* legally held responsible for damages depending on the individual circumstances, which is why businesses have insurance policies, and specific officers & directors insurance policies to protect themselves individually as directors.
Even if they did all that at all times, their efforts still wouldn't have guaranteed safety at all times. Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
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oldiesman
And how do you know they lied? Are you saying that there was never any revelation/inspiration during WOW placements? How can you possibly know all that?
But if you said they lacked the prophetic skills to know when some of these tragic events would happen, I would agree with you.
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