I'm not digging out all my 1989 correspondence for you.
Well I can't say I blame you for not wanting to dig out your Way Memorabilia, as I too am too lazy to dig mine out as well. :lol:
But if you ever get ambitious, I'd love to read about what specific issues VF confronted LCM about at this point in time, if any.
So far, all I know about is vagueness and suspicion, no real specifics with any juice.
BTW, you also may be forgetting something. In March of 1989, VF was in Chris Geer's camp for at last a year. He was following Geer. So I don't really know what biblical issues he could have helped Craig with since he thought Craig was off the wall worshipping other gods and would not change, since Geer thought the same thing. Vince was likeminded with Geer.
But I still would be happy to read what specific issues VF confronted Craig about.
he fired everyone who refused to give blind loyalty,
AND
savaged their reputations in every state.
He accused them of not serving God, period.
At that point, I'm sure a lot of accusations and ill will were flying back and forth, on both sides.
I certainly got ill will from Vince. So did the bot.
I remember a NY meeting sometime after June of 1989 (around June of 89 I sent Vince a 3-page letter federal express, asking him to stand with Craig, which he never responded to). This meeting was after then when Vince was already fired, but was leading a so-called "Way International" meeting. So I just had to make an appearance. :lol:
He was using Way Int'l songbooks, had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo, yet he already had been fired! So right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself. The substance of his teaching was how off Craig and the Bot were and how he had been mistreated. At the end of the teaching was when I spoke with Vince, asked him why he never responded to my letter, and why he wasn't standing with Craig. It was at that point he told me that I was carnal, my family was carnal, Craig and the BOT were worshpping other gods, and so forth, with no specifics.
When I asked him for specifics, real specifics, he actually said something like this:
"If I told you what really was going on, I'd be sinning"
:lol: :lol:
Gee. That really helped, didn't it?
Anyway, he seemed teed off at me too, and walked away from me, no goodbyes or anything.
Just walked away, giving me the cold shoulder treatment.
I partially agree. He was ultimately responsible, yes. But as time went on, from 1989 thru and approaching 1994 and beyond, I heard he gave more and more credence and listened more and more to Rosalie and Donna, who became his counsellors. I heard he basically shelved Don & Howard. "In the know" folks have attested to this fact, and I believe that fact greatly and negatively affected ministry decisions, which were becoming more and more harmful and legalistic as the years went by.
According to Oldiesman,
people in NY never left as a result of making up their
own minds.
Most certainly made up their minds to leave without hearing all sides, did they not?
Did most even bother to hear from the Bot, call them up and address their concerns directly with them? Nah.
It's just like what Craig wrote. At that point, folks were judging them guilty, even before the bot had a chance to prove anything.
Most certainly made up their minds to leave without hearing all sides, did they not?
Did most even bother to hear from the Bot, call them up and address their concerns directly with them? Nah.
It's just like what Craig wrote. At that point, folks were judging them guilty, even before the bot had a chance to prove anything.
I went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions.
Raf went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions.
OTHERS did so, as well. I saw them there.
YOU didn't.
OTHERS didn't.
That's no crime,
but don't you think it's a little silly for you to generalize that most people
DIDN'T know anything you didn't?
I never said MOST people knew what I knew or DIDN'T know what
I knew.
I DID know that a lot of people across the country had inside
information because I heard from them.
(See, phones and regular mail worked just fine before the
internet.)
I heard all they said, and I STILL went to check things out
for myself. (They were all correct.)
I was in NY, and I still firmly believe that had VF not followed Geer but instead allowed himself to stand with Craig to move the Word at that time, folks in NY would have stayed, on a massive scale.
VF was a man above reproach. Those who knew him, loved and respect him. Had he decided to stay, and, shall I say "win another one for the Gipper", folks would have been happy to stay.
I certainly got ill will from Vince. So did the bot.
At the end of the teaching was when I spoke with Vince, asked him why he never responded to my letter, and why he wasn't standing with Craig. It was at that point he told me that I was carnal, my family was carnal, Craig and the BOT were worshpping other gods, and so forth, with no specifics.
When I asked him for specifics, real specifics, he actually said something like this:
"If I told you what really was going on, I'd be sinning"
:lol: :lol:
Gee. That really helped, didn't it?
Anyway, he seemed teed off at me too, and walked away from me, no goodbyes or anything.
Just walked away, giving me the cold shoulder treatment.
I remember a NY meeting sometime after June of 1989 (around June of 89 I sent Vince a 3-page letter federal express, asking him to stand with Craig, which he never responded to). This meeting was after then when Vince was already fired, but was leading a so-called "Way International" meeting. So I just had to make an appearance. :lol:
He was using Way Int'l songbooks, had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo, yet he already had been fired! So right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself.
A) Ok, now we were in the same ROOM at the same time.
So I can speak of where you were AT something, and missed the details.
B) "He was using Way Intl songbooks".
"He was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself."
It is not against the law to use Way Intl songbooks in a meeting and not be in their group.
He could have used Jehovah's Witness songbooks if he'd wanted to.
I could use the books NOW and not break the law.
I would not WISH to, but I am legally ABLE to.
So, that charge is without merit.
Once again, you lack an understanding of copyright.
C) "had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo"
"Right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself."
If he had used a "Way Intl" logo, he would have been using their
copyrighted material, which would have been morally and legally wrong.
That was the first meeting that I remember ever attending where ALL
the twi-specific logos were ABSENT.
VF didn't try to make it look like he was connected to twi at that time.
EVERYBODY THERE (unless he or she was living under a rock)
was well aware of what had happened so far-
at least that there had been problems,
AND that VF and their Territory Coordinators had been fired by twi.
Did you know people at that meeting who weren't aware of any of this?
(And they weren't new arrivals.)
VF never said he was connected with twi at that meeting.
What WAS his connection?
We all thought we were still connected to each other, but not twi.
Therefore "twi" didn't apply, but "NY" did.
That leaves "the way."
Jesus Christ is STILL the way, truth and life,
and using "the way" as a term or title has had a long, proud tradition
among Christians,
even before some schmuck on a farm claimed to see imaginary snow.
It's been a proud tradition AFTER that as well.
Thus, "the Way of New York" was neither ILLEGAL nor IMMORAL
nor DECEPTIVE to use.
Everybody there knew the basics of what had happened, and who
we were.
What in the world gave you the idea this was a twi meeting?
He had everything up but a sign saying
"I can't believe it's not the way international!" above his head.
Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything. .
I don`t think vince or anybody else owed you the sordid little details....his warning was clear for anyone who chose to trust his perceptions and judgements......
John lynn and Ralph Dubofsky tried to warn as well....we always found ways to ignore those who attempted to sound the alarm.....
They are posessed....if you listen YOU will become posessed....they have listened to Satan, have been beguiled....are in left field.....trying to destroy God`s ministry...working for satan.....etc
When we tried to explain to believers why we were unwilling to swear loyalty....they couldn`t hear us either...when it was demanded....we willingly shared the insight that we had been privy to...why we knew that it was morally wrong to swear feality to lcm....what we knew that he had done..........we were always viewed as dishonest...trying to stir up trouble....if we had poloroid snap shots in living color....they would have found ways to disregard that which they didn`t want to accept.
We all had too many years invested to believe the horrible accounts eminating from hq. We desperatly needed to believe that we were right....that the ministry was what we believed it to be....the alternative was unthinkable.
Man, this topic's got legs! It goes around every so often. As long as I'm here, some scintillating comments that will uplift everyone, I'm sure.
Oldiesman, you make a good point in that a lot of the written dissertations that circulated from, and including, the Passing of the Patriarch in early 1986 to say about 1990, were long on rhetoric and short on specific details relating to the BOT, the condition of the Way and exactly what the problems were. I was sent Vince's, or one of his, and it seemed like I'd missed a lot of background he didn't write about as it didn't contain much information or facts about his whole situation. Which I felt would have been valuable to anyone trying to make an informed decision. Compared to the orderly conductance of business in the Way most were used to there was extreme chaos over those 4 years or so.
Given that a lot of the documents that were sent out pinged off someone resigning or being fired and them leaving the Way, I don't think it unreasonable to expect a person would want some specifics, not by having to pester everyone over the phone with questions, but in the context of the letters they received. Here's what happened, here's who was involved and said, here's what I did, here's what they did and here's what I've decided. Here's the exact reasons why I'm leaving a ministry that I probably told you last week was the greatest thing since toothpaste and why I'm telling you today it's not. I've changed my mind about it, or some things and here's what they are and why.
What's so hard about that?
A lot of the letters I had forwarded to me were just like the P. of the P. That was a collection of what Geer said was VPW's last ruminations and discussions with him about the Way. How it wasn't what he'd hoped it would be, how he'd been failed and let down by those he trusted most in. How no one really stood with him or was standing with him. He named a lot of names but in that writ of Geer's there was no real presentation of much beyond that, no specifics, no statements of VPW's that would really allow a person to understand the details of exactly what was wrong and even more so exacty WHY VPW himself hadn't taken more specific action and appealed to anyone beyond a few close associates. There was also a lot of how hard Geer himself worked, despite the failings of those around him. Sound familiar?
The veracity of Geer's writings was never proven. I have no idea if that's what VPW really said to him, it was never proven beyond a couple people that said oh yeah, he came to me too but they didnt listen or they were afraid. Overall if it's what VPW said to him it sounded to me like a lot of bellyaching.
A lot of these resignation letters that went out later were similar in that they had a lot of vague accusations in them...."the BOT are idolaters"...."they're off the Word"....."I won't pimp for them anymore"...."I'm not going to follow men, I'm going to follow God".
Details, please? What exactly does that mean, please?
Most of all I felt like POP and all of this later stuff opened the door to change in the Way that was going to happen sooner or later anyway. This just brought a lot of things to the surface that were festering, things that weren't addressed at all by Geer's POP and that he took great exception to when they did come out. The whole autocratic set up of the Way was bound to fold, IMO, particularly for the reasons that most of us DID NOT know anything about, the stuff going on behind closed doors, but also because the Way was frozen in the past and had no vision for the future. It's members were growing faster and further than it's leadership. The future just came a little quicker for some.
To me, LCM's "loyalty" letter was a joke. For 3 years he hadn't earned the right to ask for anyone to follow him and he'd given up what right he had by his inability to be an effective leader. (I don't believe he was the "man of God" of the ministry or had any particular eternal claim to it's presidency as it was handed down to him. Your mileage on that may vary) On that level it didn't make him a criminal, it just meant he needed to take a break and at least, with the assistance of the rest of the ministry, sort out the chaos and bring it's people together. But he didn't realize his own state, let alone the concerns of those he worked with.
My opinion. See, I told you it would be scintillating. :lol: But really, this was a LONG time ago. I'm sure it's good to sort out some of the facts. I kind of understand why some might want to and I hope discussing it helps to resolve things. But today's a new day and these are long gone.
I went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions.
Raf went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions.
OTHERS did so, as well. I saw them there.
YOU didn't.
I beg to differ. I wrote down concerns and then addressed them directly with Don Wierwille. Called him on the telephone. I went to ROA 1989 too, saw what was happening.
One of my concerns was the lack of communication between the BOT, and believers in the twigs. Don told me that that was correct, there was a breakdown of communication and that the bot would do better about it in the future. Also asked him about the breakdown between Vince and the BOT. Don told me what Vince told him and me, that Vince believed they were worshipping other gods...
I asked questions and listened to folks around me in NY, for specifics on how the bot was blowing it. None were offered. No beef, no juice, nothing that I'd be able to write down and address with Don when I called him. I asked my twig coordinators to write down their concerns. They refused.
I don't know who you were speaking to and what questions you were asking, but if you didn't address your concerns directly with one of the BOT, then you really can't say your heard all sides or you gave them an honest chance to explain their side of your allegations.
Don't take it personally.. this comment paints ME the same color..
Sure.. I'm of Paul, you're of apollos..
"I stand with the MOG of MOGS.. the loyster.."
I really thought it was the right thing to do at the time.
We were ALL carnal, well at least the majority of us... in my opinion.
Yeah I thought about it, and don't see the carnality of my decision, under the circumstances.
As Craig suggested, the carnality is determined by the mindset of the person making the decision.
I stood with Craig at that time because I believed he was moving the Word or at least wanted to move it in a greater capacity than he had been in the previous 3 years, and he wanted and needed support therein, which I gave to him.
To say it was carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support Craig in the movement of Gods' Word, is like saying its carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support Joe Torre to win the pennant, or like saying it's carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support General George Casey to win the Iraq war.
In sum, I don't see how its carnal to stand with and support a leader in a Cause one believes in. Our cause in twi at that time was moving the Word, which he wrote was the only context in which he required loyalty and obedience.
So,
VF was immaculate and above reproach,
except when he was treating you badly?
Was VF good or bad?
You're all over the map here....
I thought Vince was a great believer and a good man who got tricked by Geer. Heck, he didn't treat me that bad. Just because he gave me the cold shoulder treatment that once and didn't respond to my letter, doesn't make him a bad person. I'm just relaying to you some facts.
I think his statement about the bot "worshipping other gods" was off the mark.
Don told me that that was correct, there was a breakdown of communication and that the bot would do better about it in the future.
I wish he (they) lived up to this noble comment..
They didn't even correct this one admitted error.
Sorry, twigs here got NOTHING, for DECADES.
Nothing.. from the few that departed.. other than a few "fits" and apparent madness.. "they are POSSESSED, they are worshiping other gods.." I didn't even have the chance to hear even this much. People probably thought they went off the deep end..
Can't say with certainty.. but if somebody calmly and logically.. just sat down and told me what was going on.. perhaps things would have been different, for me. At least the ball would then be in my court. But nooooo, they were sworn practically to secrecy.. only within the last three years do I find out why things were as screwed up as they were.
"They" are still living up to the SAME reputation. The followers know little.. unless they so bold as to deal with "the devil" and get on the internet..
Its been the same for YEARS, and YEARS..
didn't address your concerns directly with one of the BOT
Gotta be kidding..
They pulled in the "welcome mat"..
Let's say I wrote a nice, loving fifteen page letter, about stuff I wouldn't know about for decades..
It would take a nice long trip. From the bot, to the region guy, to the limb guy, and they would then have scheduled a nice little "meeting" for me to attend.. would have looked like the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe its good it didn't happen.. I may have not been able to handle it at the time.. I wouldn't have known what hit me..
Other sincere people that tried to communicate.. NEVER GOT AN AUDIENCE. Look at Igotout's experience..
only thing they wanted him to do was come back to the farm for a little "regrooving".. thank God he didn't go..
Oldies, it should be rather telling.. even back in the good old days, a lot of those in the know were too tired and beat down to even care what the problems were anymore..
That was the first meeting that I remember ever attending where ALL
the twi-specific logos were ABSENT.
VF didn't try to make it look like he was connected to twi at that time.
I really beg to differ! Not sure if it was the same meeting we were at, but the meeting I was at, folks greeted us were wearing Way nametags. Don't remember if it was NY or twi, but it was "The Way". Same thing.
These things (nametags, songbooks, grapevines) all belonged to the Way of New York and twi. Same bible group. Vince was using his former employer's name and belongings, for his own purposes. It was a pathetic moment.
If he wanted to conduct his own meeting and have CBC nametags, songbooks, grapevines, and so forth, that would have been different.
I really beg to differ! Not sure if it was the same meeting we were at, but the meeting I was at, folks greeted us were wearing Way nametags. Don't remember if it was NY or twi, but it was "The Way". Same thing.
These things (nametags, songbooks, grapevines) all belonged to the Way of New York and twi. Same bible group. Vince was using his former employer's name and belongings, for his own purposes. It was a pathetic moment.
If he wanted to conduct his own meeting and have CBC nametags, songbooks, grapevines, and so forth, that would have been different.
Duh.
The guy had to move out of his house, hand over his car,
find a new home for his family, find a way to get around
(no, a car did not instantly materialize),
Christians across the state-and in other states-
were looking to him for direction and leadership
WHILE THAT WAS GOING ON-
as well as get a secular job and support his family,
and all sorts of things that are private and I have
NO KNOWLEDGE of because they were in HIS life.
Having had LESS than a few months since the axe fell,
he organized "the Way Bible Fellowship, NY"
(which was perfectly legal and moral to do)
to a greater or lesser degree
(I don't know how many legal documents had been
signed yet in the middle of all that),
he absolutely failed to design, construct and issue
NEW NAMETAGS.
You've got him dead to rights.
Get the stocks, we're gonna lock him in the public square.
=========
BTW,
the nametags themselves did not "belong" to twi, or any
OTHER organization.
They "belonged" to the people who owned them.
If I wanted to wear my Advanced class nametag
to work or on the street now, I am legally able to
do so-it "belongs" to ME.
If I claimed I represented the organization officially,
and I was not empowered to do so,
that would be a different story.
However, there is no difference between wearing
my old nametag,
my Varsity letter,
my fraternity pin or armband,
my confirmation dove,
or my insignia for "The Pack"
on the street or at any meeting-
so long as I'm not pretending to be an official
spokesperson for any of those organizations.
At the meeting in question, everybody
(everybody whose head was not in the sand)
was well aware that nobody there was representing
twi,
and VF SAID SO.
God Almighty.
You want me to overlook every type of evil lcm committed,
but VF doesn't issue new nametags and it's an issue.
I beg to differ. I wrote down concerns and then addressed them directly with Don Wierwille. Called him on the telephone. I went to ROA 1989 too, saw what was happening.
I asked questions and listened to folks around me in NY, for specifics on how the bot was blowing it. None were offered. No beef, no juice, nothing that I'd be able to write down and address with Don when I called him. I asked my twig coordinators to write down their concerns. They refused.
I don't know who you were speaking to and what questions you were asking, but if you didn't address your concerns directly with one of the BOT, then you really can't say your heard all sides or you gave them an honest chance to explain their side of your allegations.
You're reading retention needs work.
I listened to lcm HIMSELF.
I listened to Mrs lcm HERSELF.
I had conversations with many, many people,
representatives of twi at various levels across the week.
I had an extensive dialogue with one of the current BOD members-
which has been mentioned several times.
I was told an outrageous lie to my face, and when I asked if they minded if I
looked into their claim, the liar threatened me with physical violence,
and ATTEMPTED to intimidate me with his height and so on.
He had been working and living at hq the past year, and before
that, he didn't go around threatening violence.
Curious how he changed over the year.
I had eavesdroppers jump into conversations they were not
party to (which I had said, a few minutes sooner, that they
were likely to attempt-which proved my point and was thus
worse than if they'd remained silent.)
I spoke with staffers. I spoke to reps from different locales.
I listened to Joe Believers of various kinds.
(I listened, knowing their word was not "official".)
====
"I went to ROA 1989, and saw what was happening."
Ok, Oldiesman,
I've GOT to hear this.
You spent about 5 days, roughly continuously, on grounds,
interacting, and hearing the official statements and keynote
teachings and so on.
So did I.
I'm very dubious that you actually PAID ATTENTION.
So, I'm challenging you on this OUTRIGHT.
If you were actually there,
and actually PAID ATTENTION,
what struck you about all the "official" stuff,
the keynote teachings,
the main stage?
I've written here before about what I came away with,
but this is the first time you've ever claimed to have
been there.
Were you mentally there?
If so, what did you see from the main stage?
Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything. .
Now why would anyone think it would be a waste of time to try to convince Oldiesman of anything?
Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything.
If he thought that, he was wrong.
Why should he be afraid or have reservations about giving details?
Details and facts would have proven his point of view.
I don`t think vince or anybody else owed you the sordid little details....his warning was clear for anyone who chose to trust his perceptions and judgements......
He didn't owe me anything, but it sure would have been the loving thing to do for him to give specific details and facts, if he had them, rather than jerk me around some.
Trust his judgments without confirmatory details? I Trow Not :lol:
John lynn and Ralph Dubofsky tried to warn as well....we always found ways to ignore those who attempted to sound the alarm.....
Maybe you ignored them. Personally, I didn't hear anything from them. Also, in state of NY, nobody I spoke to mentioned anything about sexual misconduct. I would have addressed that, if I knew about it.
As Craig suggested, the carnality is determined by the mindset of the person making the decision.
Another little point, or opinion:
I think loyster got the cart before the horse..
That kind of argument can make ANYTHING right, including rape, pilfering and murder..
I think the carnality of OUR actions.. truly highlighted our mindset.
We were suckers. We were set up for a fall.. the arrogance.. that I could SIT, do all nine all the time, and similar attitudes.. "oh, we're soooo spiritual".. and a lot of us just signed away our loyalty without a second thought.. to a half wit from a dimwit organization.. ptooie.
For what?
How far did this loyalty take people?
From what I see:
Those who refused.. came out with SOMETHING.. including a conscience..
Those who signed.. and are STILL "signed", came out of it financially, morally and spiritually bankrupt.
I did not "sign" literally.. but in my heart. Fortunately, I am now only in ONE of the categories above..
Why should he be afraid or have reservations about giving details?
Details and facts would have proven his point of view.
He didn't owe me anything, but it sure would have been the loving thing to do for him to give specific details and facts, if he had them, rather than jerk me around some.
Trust his judgments without confirmatory details? I Trow Not :lol:
Maybe you ignored them. Personally, I didn't hear anything from them. Also, in state of NY, nobody I spoke to mentioned anything about sexual misconduct. I would have addressed that, if I knew about it.
Disclaimer: I was not around during this time; I had been long before yanked out. But it is for that very reason I endeavor to learn more about that which I know nothing about those years as well as other aspects of the TWI life (hurts, abuse) I was not aware of.
In my attempts to learn more, I have run into that roadblock a few times...people not telling me things because they claim I wouldn't believe it. I see it just as an excuse, such as the time someone claimed I didnt deserve someone's personal testimony, because if I didn't believe their second hand description, I wouldn't believe the person it actually happened to.
As I said, I wasn't around at the time. My memories of Vince come from several years before, at HQ in 1979. He seemed somewhat skeptical about trusting someone. Of course this was based on only a very few personal encounters. But he even looked at me funny once when I gave him my professional judgement (not revelation!) about the weather during the next few hours one day. So, based on my extremely sketchy experience, I am not surprised that he didn't want to trust you with the specific information. However, you are right IMHO. He didn't owe you anything...but details and facts would have helped you understand. What he did owe you is not to expect you to believe him talking about how bad things were, but not telling you what was bad.
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oldiesman
WordWolf Wrote:
Well I can't say I blame you for not wanting to dig out your Way Memorabilia, as I too am too lazy to dig mine out as well. :lol:
But if you ever get ambitious, I'd love to read about what specific issues VF confronted LCM about at this point in time, if any.
So far, all I know about is vagueness and suspicion, no real specifics with any juice.
BTW, you also may be forgetting something. In March of 1989, VF was in Chris Geer's camp for at last a year. He was following Geer. So I don't really know what biblical issues he could have helped Craig with since he thought Craig was off the wall worshipping other gods and would not change, since Geer thought the same thing. Vince was likeminded with Geer.
But I still would be happy to read what specific issues VF confronted Craig about.
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oldiesman
At that point, I'm sure a lot of accusations and ill will were flying back and forth, on both sides.
I certainly got ill will from Vince. So did the bot.
I remember a NY meeting sometime after June of 1989 (around June of 89 I sent Vince a 3-page letter federal express, asking him to stand with Craig, which he never responded to). This meeting was after then when Vince was already fired, but was leading a so-called "Way International" meeting. So I just had to make an appearance. :lol:
He was using Way Int'l songbooks, had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo, yet he already had been fired! So right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself. The substance of his teaching was how off Craig and the Bot were and how he had been mistreated. At the end of the teaching was when I spoke with Vince, asked him why he never responded to my letter, and why he wasn't standing with Craig. It was at that point he told me that I was carnal, my family was carnal, Craig and the BOT were worshpping other gods, and so forth, with no specifics.
When I asked him for specifics, real specifics, he actually said something like this:
"If I told you what really was going on, I'd be sinning"
:lol: :lol:
Gee. That really helped, didn't it?
Anyway, he seemed teed off at me too, and walked away from me, no goodbyes or anything.
Just walked away, giving me the cold shoulder treatment.
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Ham
I bet he BELIEVED that little statement.
Along with all the others.. including the one that would only tell me: "you have NO IDEA what went on.." and that was IT.
Sure helped me a lot.. "duh, well, they aren't spurtul or mature enough for the 'truth'"
So darn afraid that I'd be "offended" or leave that hole not believing there is a God or something..
can't blame em.. they were only doing what they were taught..
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oldiesman
Did most even bother to hear from the Bot, call them up and address their concerns directly with them? Nah.
It's just like what Craig wrote. At that point, folks were judging them guilty, even before the bot had a chance to prove anything.
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Ham
Just another thought..
ever consider that perhaps the charge was true?
Don't take it personally.. this comment paints ME the same color..
Sure.. I'm of Paul, you're of apollos..
"I stand with the MOG of MOGS.. the loyster.."
I really thought it was the right thing to do at the time.
We were ALL carnal, well at least the majority of us... in my opinion.
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WordWolf
I went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions.
Raf went and looked things over at hq, listened and asked questions.
OTHERS did so, as well. I saw them there.
YOU didn't.
OTHERS didn't.
That's no crime,
but don't you think it's a little silly for you to generalize that most people
DIDN'T know anything you didn't?
I never said MOST people knew what I knew or DIDN'T know what
I knew.
I DID know that a lot of people across the country had inside
information because I heard from them.
(See, phones and regular mail worked just fine before the
internet.)
I heard all they said, and I STILL went to check things out
for myself. (They were all correct.)
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Goey
Posted By Oldies:
How would you know what most people did? I know lots of folks who contacted the BOT over this.
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WordWolf
So,
VF was immaculate and above reproach,
except when he was treating you badly?
Was VF good or bad?
You're all over the map here....
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WordWolf
A) Ok, now we were in the same ROOM at the same time.
So I can speak of where you were AT something, and missed the details.
B) "He was using Way Intl songbooks".
"He was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself."
It is not against the law to use Way Intl songbooks in a meeting and not be in their group.
He could have used Jehovah's Witness songbooks if he'd wanted to.
I could use the books NOW and not break the law.
I would not WISH to, but I am legally ABLE to.
So, that charge is without merit.
Once again, you lack an understanding of copyright.
C) "had a newsletter there with "the Way of New York" logo"
"Right there he was stealing Way stuff and using it for himself."
If he had used a "Way Intl" logo, he would have been using their
copyrighted material, which would have been morally and legally wrong.
That was the first meeting that I remember ever attending where ALL
the twi-specific logos were ABSENT.
VF didn't try to make it look like he was connected to twi at that time.
EVERYBODY THERE (unless he or she was living under a rock)
was well aware of what had happened so far-
at least that there had been problems,
AND that VF and their Territory Coordinators had been fired by twi.
Did you know people at that meeting who weren't aware of any of this?
(And they weren't new arrivals.)
VF never said he was connected with twi at that meeting.
What WAS his connection?
We all thought we were still connected to each other, but not twi.
Therefore "twi" didn't apply, but "NY" did.
That leaves "the way."
Jesus Christ is STILL the way, truth and life,
and using "the way" as a term or title has had a long, proud tradition
among Christians,
even before some schmuck on a farm claimed to see imaginary snow.
It's been a proud tradition AFTER that as well.
Thus, "the Way of New York" was neither ILLEGAL nor IMMORAL
nor DECEPTIVE to use.
Everybody there knew the basics of what had happened, and who
we were.
What in the world gave you the idea this was a twi meeting?
He had everything up but a sign saying
"I can't believe it's not the way international!" above his head.
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rascal
Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything. .
I don`t think vince or anybody else owed you the sordid little details....his warning was clear for anyone who chose to trust his perceptions and judgements......
John lynn and Ralph Dubofsky tried to warn as well....we always found ways to ignore those who attempted to sound the alarm.....
They are posessed....if you listen YOU will become posessed....they have listened to Satan, have been beguiled....are in left field.....trying to destroy God`s ministry...working for satan.....etc
When we tried to explain to believers why we were unwilling to swear loyalty....they couldn`t hear us either...when it was demanded....we willingly shared the insight that we had been privy to...why we knew that it was morally wrong to swear feality to lcm....what we knew that he had done..........we were always viewed as dishonest...trying to stir up trouble....if we had poloroid snap shots in living color....they would have found ways to disregard that which they didn`t want to accept.
We all had too many years invested to believe the horrible accounts eminating from hq. We desperatly needed to believe that we were right....that the ministry was what we believed it to be....the alternative was unthinkable.
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oldiesman
Socks, you made some excellent points.
Thanks. :D
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Rhea Pantelides
Does anyone remember that horrible anti gay parade at the Rock of Ages one year?
I think that incident really distubed me, especially the Kids and the firetrucks and all.
It was like teaching our children to hate those different than us!
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oldiesman
Wordwolf wrote:
I beg to differ. I wrote down concerns and then addressed them directly with Don Wierwille. Called him on the telephone. I went to ROA 1989 too, saw what was happening.One of my concerns was the lack of communication between the BOT, and believers in the twigs. Don told me that that was correct, there was a breakdown of communication and that the bot would do better about it in the future. Also asked him about the breakdown between Vince and the BOT. Don told me what Vince told him and me, that Vince believed they were worshipping other gods...
I asked questions and listened to folks around me in NY, for specifics on how the bot was blowing it. None were offered. No beef, no juice, nothing that I'd be able to write down and address with Don when I called him. I asked my twig coordinators to write down their concerns. They refused.
I don't know who you were speaking to and what questions you were asking, but if you didn't address your concerns directly with one of the BOT, then you really can't say your heard all sides or you gave them an honest chance to explain their side of your allegations.
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oldiesman
Yeah I thought about it, and don't see the carnality of my decision, under the circumstances.
As Craig suggested, the carnality is determined by the mindset of the person making the decision.
I stood with Craig at that time because I believed he was moving the Word or at least wanted to move it in a greater capacity than he had been in the previous 3 years, and he wanted and needed support therein, which I gave to him.
To say it was carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support Craig in the movement of Gods' Word, is like saying its carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support Joe Torre to win the pennant, or like saying it's carnal to make a pledge to stand with and support General George Casey to win the Iraq war.
In sum, I don't see how its carnal to stand with and support a leader in a Cause one believes in. Our cause in twi at that time was moving the Word, which he wrote was the only context in which he required loyalty and obedience.
I thought Vince was a great believer and a good man who got tricked by Geer. Heck, he didn't treat me that bad. Just because he gave me the cold shoulder treatment that once and didn't respond to my letter, doesn't make him a bad person. I'm just relaying to you some facts.I think his statement about the bot "worshipping other gods" was off the mark.
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Ham
They didn't even correct this one admitted error.
Sorry, twigs here got NOTHING, for DECADES.
Nothing.. from the few that departed.. other than a few "fits" and apparent madness.. "they are POSSESSED, they are worshiping other gods.." I didn't even have the chance to hear even this much. People probably thought they went off the deep end..
Can't say with certainty.. but if somebody calmly and logically.. just sat down and told me what was going on.. perhaps things would have been different, for me. At least the ball would then be in my court. But nooooo, they were sworn practically to secrecy.. only within the last three years do I find out why things were as screwed up as they were.
"They" are still living up to the SAME reputation. The followers know little.. unless they so bold as to deal with "the devil" and get on the internet..
Its been the same for YEARS, and YEARS..
Gotta be kidding..
They pulled in the "welcome mat"..
Let's say I wrote a nice, loving fifteen page letter, about stuff I wouldn't know about for decades..
It would take a nice long trip. From the bot, to the region guy, to the limb guy, and they would then have scheduled a nice little "meeting" for me to attend.. would have looked like the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe its good it didn't happen.. I may have not been able to handle it at the time.. I wouldn't have known what hit me..
Other sincere people that tried to communicate.. NEVER GOT AN AUDIENCE. Look at Igotout's experience..
only thing they wanted him to do was come back to the farm for a little "regrooving".. thank God he didn't go..
Oldies, it should be rather telling.. even back in the good old days, a lot of those in the know were too tired and beat down to even care what the problems were anymore..
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oldiesman
Wordwolf wrote:
I really beg to differ! Not sure if it was the same meeting we were at, but the meeting I was at, folks greeted us were wearing Way nametags. Don't remember if it was NY or twi, but it was "The Way". Same thing.
These things (nametags, songbooks, grapevines) all belonged to the Way of New York and twi. Same bible group. Vince was using his former employer's name and belongings, for his own purposes. It was a pathetic moment.
If he wanted to conduct his own meeting and have CBC nametags, songbooks, grapevines, and so forth, that would have been different.
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Morgan
"I think his statement about the bot "worshipping other gods" was off the mark."
I don't know, I think time has proven they have and do still worship other gods.
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WordWolf
Duh.
The guy had to move out of his house, hand over his car,
find a new home for his family, find a way to get around
(no, a car did not instantly materialize),
Christians across the state-and in other states-
were looking to him for direction and leadership
WHILE THAT WAS GOING ON-
as well as get a secular job and support his family,
and all sorts of things that are private and I have
NO KNOWLEDGE of because they were in HIS life.
Having had LESS than a few months since the axe fell,
he organized "the Way Bible Fellowship, NY"
(which was perfectly legal and moral to do)
to a greater or lesser degree
(I don't know how many legal documents had been
signed yet in the middle of all that),
he absolutely failed to design, construct and issue
NEW NAMETAGS.
You've got him dead to rights.
Get the stocks, we're gonna lock him in the public square.
=========
BTW,
the nametags themselves did not "belong" to twi, or any
OTHER organization.
They "belonged" to the people who owned them.
If I wanted to wear my Advanced class nametag
to work or on the street now, I am legally able to
do so-it "belongs" to ME.
If I claimed I represented the organization officially,
and I was not empowered to do so,
that would be a different story.
However, there is no difference between wearing
my old nametag,
my Varsity letter,
my fraternity pin or armband,
my confirmation dove,
or my insignia for "The Pack"
on the street or at any meeting-
so long as I'm not pretending to be an official
spokesperson for any of those organizations.
At the meeting in question, everybody
(everybody whose head was not in the sand)
was well aware that nobody there was representing
twi,
and VF SAID SO.
God Almighty.
You want me to overlook every type of evil lcm committed,
but VF doesn't issue new nametags and it's an issue.
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oldiesman
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WordWolf
You're reading retention needs work.
I listened to lcm HIMSELF.
I listened to Mrs lcm HERSELF.
I had conversations with many, many people,
representatives of twi at various levels across the week.
I had an extensive dialogue with one of the current BOD members-
which has been mentioned several times.
I was told an outrageous lie to my face, and when I asked if they minded if I
looked into their claim, the liar threatened me with physical violence,
and ATTEMPTED to intimidate me with his height and so on.
He had been working and living at hq the past year, and before
that, he didn't go around threatening violence.
Curious how he changed over the year.
I had eavesdroppers jump into conversations they were not
party to (which I had said, a few minutes sooner, that they
were likely to attempt-which proved my point and was thus
worse than if they'd remained silent.)
I spoke with staffers. I spoke to reps from different locales.
I listened to Joe Believers of various kinds.
(I listened, knowing their word was not "official".)
====
"I went to ROA 1989, and saw what was happening."
Ok, Oldiesman,
I've GOT to hear this.
You spent about 5 days, roughly continuously, on grounds,
interacting, and hearing the official statements and keynote
teachings and so on.
So did I.
I'm very dubious that you actually PAID ATTENTION.
So, I'm challenging you on this OUTRIGHT.
If you were actually there,
and actually PAID ATTENTION,
what struck you about all the "official" stuff,
the keynote teachings,
the main stage?
I've written here before about what I came away with,
but this is the first time you've ever claimed to have
been there.
Were you mentally there?
If so, what did you see from the main stage?
Now why would anyone think it would be a waste of time to try to convince Oldiesman of anything?
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oldiesman
If he thought that, he was wrong.
Why should he be afraid or have reservations about giving details?
Details and facts would have proven his point of view.
He didn't owe me anything, but it sure would have been the loving thing to do for him to give specific details and facts, if he had them, rather than jerk me around some.Trust his judgments without confirmatory details? I Trow Not :lol:
Maybe you ignored them. Personally, I didn't hear anything from them. Also, in state of NY, nobody I spoke to mentioned anything about sexual misconduct. I would have addressed that, if I knew about it.
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Ham
Another little point, or opinion:
I think loyster got the cart before the horse..
That kind of argument can make ANYTHING right, including rape, pilfering and murder..
I think the carnality of OUR actions.. truly highlighted our mindset.
We were suckers. We were set up for a fall.. the arrogance.. that I could SIT, do all nine all the time, and similar attitudes.. "oh, we're soooo spiritual".. and a lot of us just signed away our loyalty without a second thought.. to a half wit from a dimwit organization.. ptooie.
For what?
How far did this loyalty take people?
From what I see:
Those who refused.. came out with SOMETHING.. including a conscience..
Those who signed.. and are STILL "signed", came out of it financially, morally and spiritually bankrupt.
I did not "sign" literally.. but in my heart. Fortunately, I am now only in ONE of the categories above..
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oldiesman
What other gods were/are they worshipping? Who are they? Name them.
Be specific.
Don Wierwille was an administrator. Who did he worship, the Administrator God? :lol:
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Lifted Up
Disclaimer: I was not around during this time; I had been long before yanked out. But it is for that very reason I endeavor to learn more about that which I know nothing about those years as well as other aspects of the TWI life (hurts, abuse) I was not aware of.
In my attempts to learn more, I have run into that roadblock a few times...people not telling me things because they claim I wouldn't believe it. I see it just as an excuse, such as the time someone claimed I didnt deserve someone's personal testimony, because if I didn't believe their second hand description, I wouldn't believe the person it actually happened to.
As I said, I wasn't around at the time. My memories of Vince come from several years before, at HQ in 1979. He seemed somewhat skeptical about trusting someone. Of course this was based on only a very few personal encounters. But he even looked at me funny once when I gave him my professional judgement (not revelation!) about the weather during the next few hours one day. So, based on my extremely sketchy experience, I am not surprised that he didn't want to trust you with the specific information. However, you are right IMHO. He didn't owe you anything...but details and facts would have helped you understand. What he did owe you is not to expect you to believe him talking about how bad things were, but not telling you what was bad.
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