Why would anyone who stayed gossip about Craig worship? Hell- LOOO!!!!
As for the little Wierwille idol... QUACK! Hey, buddy, it's a duck!
We were told to our faces that if LCM was not the right man to run TWI, then GOD IS STUPID.
Those were our choices.
A: LCM is the right one for the job.
B: God is stupid.
No other choices given.
You don't find that a tad bit, oh, I don't know, worshipful?
Why do I choose the word worshipful?
Because their very respect for Almighty God was inextricably intertwined with their respect for LCM. Eliminate the second, and the first evaporates. That's worship right there, buddy.
Oh, and lest you think this was the minority opinion of some wacko, the person who told this to us, to our faces, is now vice president of TWI.
... There were plenty of facts at that time and now to show he was not anywhere close to standing on the Word in his thinking personal life or his treatment of others or his teachings. ...
In contrast, he was still moving the Word, and doing good things "on the Word".
Craig wrote
Let me add that the Board of Trustees plans to continue supporting the programs and activities that Dr. Wierwille began, some of which are: Sunday night teachings from International Headquarters with available audio and video tape; the church in the home according to the Book of Acts; the Power for Abundant Living class series; Way Family Camps; Way Corps; Word Over the World Ambassadors; The Way College Biblical Studies program; The University of Life; The Way Magazine and other publications; Bookstore; various seminars on the field and at our Root locations; the Rock of Ages; as well as anything else we can do, by God's grace, to lovingly help meet the expressed godly desires of those choosing to fellowship within The Way Ministry.
Why ignore these things? Are they all worthless? All evil?
When he asked folks to stand with him, he was asking folks to stand with and support him in doing the above things. That's all.
And he was saying, and I believe this, that part of supporting God and Christ also means walking with mutual love and respect like mindedness and one accord.
I agree with that
The start of the problem is found in the next sentence
Each of us must decide with whom we want to do that.
That, on the surface, is not bad--we all do make that decision in our walks
The problem arises when LCM states that
1) he is the ONLY available choice.
2) and bolsters his claim with outright falsehoods, macho chest thumping and Poor me's rather than Showing specifics of how he has changed and how he has applied the Word. Instead he again dodges the accusations leveled at him with less than full disclosure
PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving.
For a select few! You mean They were not being run for those who had agreement with The Way that they could repeat the class anytime they were available. Yeah thats someone Standing on the Word....... Oh and when they could not find a way around the contract they just retired the class and made a new one to keep people out. Yeah Also sounds like someone Moving the Word........
As a result of the events, I would surmise that they had to be careful to let folks back in who continued to think evil of Craig and the BOT and twi. They were very worried about future distruptions from former way grads, not standing with twi. Whispering, backbiting, evil speaking, and so forth. There was a lot of teaching in those days to us about walking away and departing from folks who think and speak evil of you. Cut out gangrene...and so forth.
I would surmise then, that those folks who thought Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, and off the wall; those who thought others in twi were a bunch of foolish "yes men", worshipping Craig etc.;... forfeited their "right" to sit thru PFAL again, at least from twi.
Don't know if that was "legal", perhaps it wasn't.
But they had to be careful who they let back in at that point because of all the hard feelings.
All I know is that our letter demanded to know if we stood with lcm...the one line that stood out was .. *and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*...seriously!
That is when Mark looked up at me and said sadly *we will ALWAYS stand with God* ....and stubbornly refused to write a loyalty letter... at this point we were as loyal to the ministry and it`s leaders as we EVER were....
Oakspear...I have told you before....WE were not employees, we were not leaders....his demands for our loyalty were uncalled for.......
THAT is when we got a 2nd scathing letter saying that we were *salt that had lost it`s savor* *fit only to be tossed to the street and trodden under the feet of the beatsts*....ie worthless
He couldn`t take a fellowship away from us....he couldn`t ban us from the fellowship that our friends ran because he had already dissasociated it from twi on information he recieved from the town looney....our bc knew it our lc knew it...but mr all 9 all the time never bothered to check with them before acting.....
make no mistake.....that letter was nothing more than craig declaring a containeding contest and throwing a childish temper tantrum when he lost.
The man was seriously unstable.....he wanted complete power...and when he was denied...... ..... he tried to mess you up any way he could.....
His demands were unaceptable to anyone with integrity and honor.
As a result of the events, I would surmise that they had to be careful to let folks back in who continued to think evil of Craig and the BOT and twi. They were very worried about future distruptions from former way grads, not standing with twi. Whispering, backbiting, evil speaking, and so forth. There was a lot of teaching in those days to us about walking away and departing from folks who think and speak evil of you. Cut out gangrene...and so forth.
I can attest to this statement. When all of this blew up I was small town believer (Sidney) in a fellowship where the actual leaders of my fellowship left (the coordinators are some realtion to the CES guy - can't remember his name). Prior to this I worked on the California Limb Staff and knew something BIG was going on and most of the Corps on staff were leaving.....the Limb leaders secretary) I couldn't believe it - these guys were the committed of the committed. If they were leaving, what in the hell was going on? Although I was not corps, they treated me and loved me as though I was and shared a letter. I really didn't understand all of it at first. My world was collapsing.
Anyways when all the corps (in the Stockton area) left in CA and some of the local fellowships went their own ways - kept some doctrine - threw some away - I moved back to Ohio. When I got here that is when the fellowships in Sidney bagan to unravel. So for a few years I was totally on my own..not really knowing what was going on. After a few years and some life experiences I decided I wanted to go back to HQ and fellowship. Wasn't as easy as I thought. The hoops to jump through were right there at the front door - I called International and they took my number and said someone would get right back to me and believe it or not I had to call twice more before someone called me. There were several face to face "interviews from that point on".
They were just premiering the Way of Abundance and Power - and I wanted to take it. When I told them I had a teenage daughter - they had to meet her and blah blah blah I guess to make sure her lip wasn't pierced or something. Didn't matter, I wanted back in. Took five years to get back out - it was rigid there.
They were definately operating "genuine spiritual suspicion" when it came to letting anybody back in the door. Sunday services were like watching the movie Stepford Wives - only their were Stepford Husbands all over the place too. Kinda scary now that I think back
Yes I do Oldies that was not a condition of the agreement. And I have no record of ever being a disruption in any of their fellowships or classes. Even in mans court of law you are innocent until proven guilty surely they can do better than that one would think. Not to mention that they have their great walk with God to rely on for information but I guess that went out the window with the ones who left . They could not hear His voice if you cranked it through a 50,000 watt PA system.. More 5 senses excuses
Genuine spiritual suspicion- a guess maybe right maybe wrong another words we have no clue why because we are so far from God we can't hear His Voice. By the Way what happened to their training from VP to know that you know that you know........
Oh let me guess they rewrote that prevailing perverted truth also. To guess that you suspect that you don't know that you are not sure so what the hell cover your foot cause your too stupid and lost to just ASK God............
It was me who called the letter a "hypocritical load of crap"
Rascal:
What I've said on this thread is not that I think that Martindale was right, subsequent events and the testimony of psoters who were around at the time indicate clearly that he was wrong, but that it should have come as no surprise. I see it as a natural reaction for a hypocritical jerk with a big ego trained by another hypocritical jerk with a big ego.
Wierwille got rid of the people who saw through his crap too. He was just smoother and kept it behind the scenes. Martindale was too stupid, didn't have Wierwille's charisma or skill at manipulation, and bought into the "I am the MOG" mythos that Wierwille built in him.
Wierwille expected people to follow him too. How do you think it would have gone if the Way Corps told HIM that they didn't stand with a man, they stood with God? I imagine that his answer would have been that standing with HIMwas standing with God...but he probably followed it up with a hearty "haw, haw, haw...I shore love you kids"...as he showed them the door.
I believe at the point he wrote the letter, and the few years (maybe 5 years at most) that followed, he was concerned about moving and standing on the Word
lcm seems to have DISAGREED with you on this one, Oldiesman.
You SUPPOSED that's what he was thinking.
"Out There" PHONED him and spoke to him PERSONALLY on this.
======
"Out There":
"When I received the Loyalty letter in the mail I immediately called LCM and by some miracle
after leaving a message he actually called me back.
When I asked if this letter
was a call to blindly follow him
he said I had been doing this all along.
I then told him thats what he thinks he could 'kiss my foot'.
I think I was dropped from the rolls of the Way Corps that next morning."
=====
Therefore,
lcm was WELL AWARE he was calling for blind, unquestioning loyalty to
HIM,
and thought that blind, unquestioning loyalty was his DUE.
lcm was WELL AWARE he was calling for blind, unquestioning loyalty to
HIM,
and thought that blind, unquestioning loyalty was his DUE.
Remarkable this is one of the few things where WW and I agree. I cant say for sure it was always like that in TWI (specifically during the FOG years) but eventually it ended up being either LCM's way or the highway.
I can see where ignorance of certain events, and a desire to grasp at any shred that would allow one to think that "the ministry" was what one thought it was, would lead one to give Martindale the benefit of the doubt.
Knowing what we know now, believing that Martindale was right in issuing that letter, ignores...well, pretty much everything.
The "loyalty letter" makes perfect sense in light of a control freak who was convinced that he was God's representative (or dead set on maintaining that illusion) trying to maintain that control.
Despite what I've said about Wierwille being no different than Martindale in this regard, Wierwille convinced us that it was a ministry of God, and that it was our ministry, and that he, above all wanted us to stand for God and not for him...I don't believe that was what Wierwille really stood for though.
The best that can be said for that approach is that it could lead a reader to say, "Oh, so THAT's why I was deceived." This letter IS deception, and LCM's actions that followed prove it.
After 1994 I would agree. But the Word (or twi's version of) was still moving and being supported immediately after the letter was written, for about a 5-year window after.
Just for fun, I took a gander at my piles of Way Memorabilia last nite, particularly from the time period of March, 1989 thru July 1991, when I departed my local twi twig. Yes, there were plenty of good things happening from the BOT on down and the word was moving and being supported, as opposed to being chopped up to pieces.
I suppose it's difficult to understand if you weren't around those years, but only look at what happened after 1994 and beyond.
I'll bet you're laughing your @$$ off thinking of how we've all been shaking our heads thinking you're serious. :huh: :mellow: :blink: Kinda like Mike and the Stress thread....you just like pushing buttons, don't you. Come on, you can fess up! :P
This presumes that Craig was "standing on the word". He wasn't. If there was godly action here , it was by those who chose to separate themselves from Craig and from those who mistakenly chose to give loyalty to a man that was "off the beam" .
The call for loyalty and likemindedness was in light of moving the word, so yes I do believe he was standing at that point.
Here is an excerpt of what he wrote in his companion letter to Staff Believers in April 14, 1989:
Thank you for your wonderful and loving response to my request by letter as to whether you stand with me and the other Trustees here on God's Word in the movement of the Word over the world.
He wasn't asking folks to stand with him selling french fries. He was asking folks to stand with him in the movement of the Word, and at that point he was prepared to move it, and he did.
This was not Biblical peace. It was simply the absence of folks who dared to speak the truth to those who refused to hear it. Quiet maybe - but not necessarily godly.
If they HAD spoken truth, or at least some applicable FACTS, there would have been items to investigate. But I didn't hear truth or facts...all I heard was that the BOT was carnal, worshipping other gods, and I was carnal, with no specifics.
And it was very very peaceful, even joyous, not having to argue with my former twig coordinators anymore.
After 1994 I would agree. But the Word (or twi's version of) was still moving and being supported immediately after the letter was written, for about a 5-year window after.
Just for fun, I took a gander at my piles of Way Memorabilia last nite, particularly from the time period of March, 1989 thru July 1991, when I departed my local twi twig. Yes, there were plenty of good things happening from the BOT on down and the word was moving and being supported, as opposed to being chopped up to pieces.
I suppose it's difficult to understand if you weren't around those years, but only look at what happened after 1994 and beyond.
Ok so you are saying that the years 89-91 were a better version of Non Christian actions than after 94. Which proves it only got worse not that it was productive. I mean its better to have one finger chopped off than your hand but neither is desirable. I was around then and I saw nothing but hurt ,destruction ,lies, paranoia, broken promises, and ramped ego. Sure there was a show of what appeared to be Christian actions but lacking the power there in it quickly fell one by one. Having events with no genuine love to sustain them has never worked for any length of time and their show quickly fell apart.
With the enlighted folks gone it might have seemed "peaceful". Kinda like when you run off a prophet who is nagging you to get back on the ball. The lack of legalism may have been seemingly true for your area, but it was not in others.
Yeah there sure were folks finger pointing and nagging back then. Then when Craig demanded they quit nagging and finger pointing, but in contrast stand with him in the movement of the Word, they declined.
What do you suppose they might have been more concerned about? Continued movement of the Word, or nagging?
And so Craig said, if you couldn't stop your finger pointing and nagging, you'd be better somewhere else.
PFAL is not the word. The fact that PFAL classes were running does not indicate that the "Word was moving".
PFAL is not itself god breathed but it did communicate the rightly divided word in many areas of biblical teaching.
And, twi was not only just about PFAL and there was more Craig was doing than just supporting PFAL alone.
I suppose if I was lost in darkness I would call it finger pointing and nagging too rather than endeavoring to help someone to return to some sense of Godly sanity..
Any "word" that moved was a credit to the Wows themselves, not to Martindale or TWI Inc.
And had folks who, instead of departing, made the commitment to stand with Craig for the movement of the Word, it would have been a credit to them, themselves. That was part of the whole point, to get folks to "move the word" rather than sit back and nag and finger point.
Folks who DID make a commitment to move the Word with Craig, did so for that reason, to move the Word.
I don't doubt the commitment of those who stayed. What I doubt is the leadership, and the leadership did run things into the ground: everything you laud them for was ruined at their hands. I don't give them credit for keeping things moving for five years when they could have and should have been moving to this very day.
Captain Smith, you did a terrific job getting this ship two-thirds of the way from Britain. Shame about that iceberg thing, eh?
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Raf
Why would anyone who stayed gossip about Craig worship? Hell- LOOO!!!!
As for the little Wierwille idol... QUACK! Hey, buddy, it's a duck!
We were told to our faces that if LCM was not the right man to run TWI, then GOD IS STUPID.
Those were our choices.
A: LCM is the right one for the job.
B: God is stupid.
No other choices given.
You don't find that a tad bit, oh, I don't know, worshipful?
Why do I choose the word worshipful?
Because their very respect for Almighty God was inextricably intertwined with their respect for LCM. Eliminate the second, and the first evaporates. That's worship right there, buddy.
Oh, and lest you think this was the minority opinion of some wacko, the person who told this to us, to our faces, is now vice president of TWI.
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oldiesman
Craig wrote
Why ignore these things? Are they all worthless? All evil?
When he asked folks to stand with him, he was asking folks to stand with and support him in doing the above things. That's all.
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Raf
He was running those things into the ground!
Goodness, you're the kind of guy who'd give E.J. Smith his props for making it 2/3 of the way from Southampton to NYC.
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, I read your stuff.
I moved up to Dutchess County, Poughkeepsie, from the Bronx, in 1988.
So I know nothing about NYC after 1988 except that I work here.
I did go to a few NYC twigs in the 80's, (of Steve B...) and his lovely wife.
But no, I don't think I ever posted that about NYC.
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templelady
The start of the problem is found in the next sentence
That, on the surface, is not bad--we all do make that decision in our walks
The problem arises when LCM states that
1) he is the ONLY available choice.
2) and bolsters his claim with outright falsehoods, macho chest thumping and Poor me's rather than Showing specifics of how he has changed and how he has applied the Word. Instead he again dodges the accusations leveled at him with less than full disclosure
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oldiesman
WhiteDove Writes:
As a result of the events, I would surmise that they had to be careful to let folks back in who continued to think evil of Craig and the BOT and twi. They were very worried about future distruptions from former way grads, not standing with twi. Whispering, backbiting, evil speaking, and so forth. There was a lot of teaching in those days to us about walking away and departing from folks who think and speak evil of you. Cut out gangrene...and so forth.I would surmise then, that those folks who thought Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, and off the wall; those who thought others in twi were a bunch of foolish "yes men", worshipping Craig etc.;... forfeited their "right" to sit thru PFAL again, at least from twi.
Don't know if that was "legal", perhaps it wasn't.
But they had to be careful who they let back in at that point because of all the hard feelings.
At that point, can you really blame them?
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Raf
Yes. They went back on their word. I blame them.
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rascal
All I know is that our letter demanded to know if we stood with lcm...the one line that stood out was .. *and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*...seriously!
That is when Mark looked up at me and said sadly *we will ALWAYS stand with God* ....and stubbornly refused to write a loyalty letter... at this point we were as loyal to the ministry and it`s leaders as we EVER were....
Oakspear...I have told you before....WE were not employees, we were not leaders....his demands for our loyalty were uncalled for.......
THAT is when we got a 2nd scathing letter saying that we were *salt that had lost it`s savor* *fit only to be tossed to the street and trodden under the feet of the beatsts*....ie worthless
He couldn`t take a fellowship away from us....he couldn`t ban us from the fellowship that our friends ran because he had already dissasociated it from twi on information he recieved from the town looney....our bc knew it our lc knew it...but mr all 9 all the time never bothered to check with them before acting.....
make no mistake.....that letter was nothing more than craig declaring a containeding contest and throwing a childish temper tantrum when he lost.
The man was seriously unstable.....he wanted complete power...and when he was denied...... ..... he tried to mess you up any way he could.....
His demands were unaceptable to anyone with integrity and honor.
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outofdafog
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templelady
And there it is again
Craig
THe BOT
TWI
What happened to
God
Jesus Christ
The Holy Spirit
This is supposed to be a BIBLICAL ministry
But that doesn't come up even in passing
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WhiteDove
Yes I do Oldies that was not a condition of the agreement. And I have no record of ever being a disruption in any of their fellowships or classes. Even in mans court of law you are innocent until proven guilty surely they can do better than that one would think. Not to mention that they have their great walk with God to rely on for information but I guess that went out the window with the ones who left . They could not hear His voice if you cranked it through a 50,000 watt PA system.. More 5 senses excuses
Genuine spiritual suspicion- a guess maybe right maybe wrong another words we have no clue why because we are so far from God we can't hear His Voice. By the Way what happened to their training from VP to know that you know that you know........
Oh let me guess they rewrote that prevailing perverted truth also. To guess that you suspect that you don't know that you are not sure so what the hell cover your foot cause your too stupid and lost to just ASK God............
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Oakspear
Raf:
It was me who called the letter a "hypocritical load of crap"
Rascal:
What I've said on this thread is not that I think that Martindale was right, subsequent events and the testimony of psoters who were around at the time indicate clearly that he was wrong, but that it should have come as no surprise. I see it as a natural reaction for a hypocritical jerk with a big ego trained by another hypocritical jerk with a big ego.
Wierwille got rid of the people who saw through his crap too. He was just smoother and kept it behind the scenes. Martindale was too stupid, didn't have Wierwille's charisma or skill at manipulation, and bought into the "I am the MOG" mythos that Wierwille built in him.
Wierwille expected people to follow him too. How do you think it would have gone if the Way Corps told HIM that they didn't stand with a man, they stood with God? I imagine that his answer would have been that standing with HIM was standing with God...but he probably followed it up with a hearty "haw, haw, haw...I shore love you kids"...as he showed them the door.
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WordWolf
lcm seems to have DISAGREED with you on this one, Oldiesman.
You SUPPOSED that's what he was thinking.
"Out There" PHONED him and spoke to him PERSONALLY on this.
======
"Out There":
"When I received the Loyalty letter in the mail I immediately called LCM and by some miracle
after leaving a message he actually called me back.
When I asked if this letter
was a call to blindly follow him
he said I had been doing this all along.
I then told him thats what he thinks he could 'kiss my foot'.
I think I was dropped from the rolls of the Way Corps that next morning."
=====
Therefore,
lcm was WELL AWARE he was calling for blind, unquestioning loyalty to
HIM,
and thought that blind, unquestioning loyalty was his DUE.
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What The Hey
Remarkable this is one of the few things where WW and I agree. I cant say for sure it was always like that in TWI (specifically during the FOG years) but eventually it ended up being either LCM's way or the highway.
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Raf
Common ground. I had a feeling there had to be some, somewhere.
Good to be on the same side, for once, WTH.
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Oakspear
I can see where ignorance of certain events, and a desire to grasp at any shred that would allow one to think that "the ministry" was what one thought it was, would lead one to give Martindale the benefit of the doubt.
Knowing what we know now, believing that Martindale was right in issuing that letter, ignores...well, pretty much everything.
The "loyalty letter" makes perfect sense in light of a control freak who was convinced that he was God's representative (or dead set on maintaining that illusion) trying to maintain that control.
Despite what I've said about Wierwille being no different than Martindale in this regard, Wierwille convinced us that it was a ministry of God, and that it was our ministry, and that he, above all wanted us to stand for God and not for him...I don't believe that was what Wierwille really stood for though.
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oldiesman
Just for fun, I took a gander at my piles of Way Memorabilia last nite, particularly from the time period of March, 1989 thru July 1991, when I departed my local twi twig. Yes, there were plenty of good things happening from the BOT on down and the word was moving and being supported, as opposed to being chopped up to pieces.
I suppose it's difficult to understand if you weren't around those years, but only look at what happened after 1994 and beyond.
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oldiesman
But IT'S FRIDAY
happy
happy
happy
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oldiesman
Goey said:
The call for loyalty and likemindedness was in light of moving the word, so yes I do believe he was standing at that point.Here is an excerpt of what he wrote in his companion letter to Staff Believers in April 14, 1989:
He wasn't asking folks to stand with him selling french fries. He was asking folks to stand with him in the movement of the Word, and at that point he was prepared to move it, and he did.
If they HAD spoken truth, or at least some applicable FACTS, there would have been items to investigate. But I didn't hear truth or facts...all I heard was that the BOT was carnal, worshipping other gods, and I was carnal, with no specifics.And it was very very peaceful, even joyous, not having to argue with my former twig coordinators anymore.
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WhiteDove
Ok so you are saying that the years 89-91 were a better version of Non Christian actions than after 94. Which proves it only got worse not that it was productive. I mean its better to have one finger chopped off than your hand but neither is desirable. I was around then and I saw nothing but hurt ,destruction ,lies, paranoia, broken promises, and ramped ego. Sure there was a show of what appeared to be Christian actions but lacking the power there in it quickly fell one by one. Having events with no genuine love to sustain them has never worked for any length of time and their show quickly fell apart.
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oldiesman
What do you suppose they might have been more concerned about? Continued movement of the Word, or nagging?
And so Craig said, if you couldn't stop your finger pointing and nagging, you'd be better somewhere else.
PFAL is not itself god breathed but it did communicate the rightly divided word in many areas of biblical teaching.And, twi was not only just about PFAL and there was more Craig was doing than just supporting PFAL alone.
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WhiteDove
I suppose if I was lost in darkness I would call it finger pointing and nagging too rather than endeavoring to help someone to return to some sense of Godly sanity..
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oldiesman
Folks who DID make a commitment to move the Word with Craig, did so for that reason, to move the Word.
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Raf
I don't doubt the commitment of those who stayed. What I doubt is the leadership, and the leadership did run things into the ground: everything you laud them for was ruined at their hands. I don't give them credit for keeping things moving for five years when they could have and should have been moving to this very day.
Captain Smith, you did a terrific job getting this ship two-thirds of the way from Britain. Shame about that iceberg thing, eh?
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