You’ve taken this direction to master these materials and made the accomplishment of mastering them your new identity. In essence your work to master these books has taken precedence over accepting what has already been done by Christ.
A Simple Guy,
Welcome to Greasespot.
I don't think Mike has exalted PFAL above the finished work of Jesus Christ.
To the contrary, much of the PFAL materials expound the finished work of Jesus Christ, and all that He accomplished for us. So by mastering PFAL, one delves in Christ's accomplishments.
Must we get a list of chapter titles that prove nothing every three weeks or so?
Those chapter titles don't prove that Mike hasn't exalted PFAL over the finished work of Christ. Mike has written that Christ learned from PFAL. Jesus Christ, THE WORD, learning from PFAL!
A person can magnify their own works above Christ even when those works are works of studying God's Word. The pharisees had this one down pretty good - John 5:18-39.
A man can chose this path, don't demand it of me though.
A person can magnify their own works above Christ even when those works are works of studying God's Word. The pharisees had this one down pretty good - John 5:18-39.
A man can chose this path, don't demand it of me though.
A simple guy, I understand what you're saying, but I think you'd have to know Mike's heart to know if he's magnifying his works above Christ.
Besides, this topic really isn't about Mike, it's really about whether PFAL teaches the Word of God.
If it does not, we should chuck it...
But if it does, we would do well to master it.
Or those parts that teach God's Word.
Why do you think many folks still cling to PFAL? Because of Wierwille? Nah.
Because although it isn't perfect, PFAL teaches God's Word many times over.
Just review the materials if you like, and you will see it all over again.
My take on your comments is that you are forgetting that the gift of holy spirit does not affect the mind.
Your comments on the finished work of Christ are true, but refer NOT to the whole thoughts in a believers mind that must be worked for. Your comments refer to the aquisituion of spirit.
We were saved (given spirit) UNTO good works. It seems that good works and working out our own salvation (in the soul/mind category) have taken on a bad reputation among a certain strain of grads in the past 18 years, due to the heavy work load of the Corps program.
You wrote: "The Mikean pfal, however, leads AWAY from the Bible..."
Yet, in my class materials nearly every page has Bible verses for study, and the net effect of the materials is to OPEN the Bible for students better than any other method in 2000 years.
These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible.
Remember, I never advocate my form of super charged PFAL to new people, only OLGs who have already had a lot of focused KJV study, and now after many years after the ministry meltdown many of them have shopped around other Biblical writers for a little balance as well. My message has always been a focus toward OLGs and it's "come back" to PFAL.
As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?
I have no problem with Wierwille's books. I think they're fine, and I appreciate a lot of what's in there. I just don't think they're perfect, and I acknowledge the existence of plagiarism in them.
One CAN read PFAL and learn some useful Bible stuff.
The Mikean pfal, however, leads AWAY from the Bible,
and the Mikean approach is to throw away all Bibles, all Christian
writings by any other writer, and anything else containing print,
and reading nothing but vpw books and magazine articles,
and listening to nothing BUT vpw tapes.
(With occasional supplements from approved sources.)
WW,
You wrote: "The Mikean pfal, however, leads AWAY from the Bible..."
Yet, in my class materials nearly every page has Bible verses for study, and the net effect of the materials is to OPEN the Bible for students better than any other method in 2000 years.
[You've said before that the only Bible verses that MATTER are
the ones in the pfal books.
Therefore, someone following YOUR method-as you've advocated-
will turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers, and NEVER crack
open a Bible, EVER.
I also drew a distinction between PFAL -the books and tapes-
and YOUR doctrine and methodology-
since they often lead in OPPOSITE directions.]
These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible.
[i can agree with that sentence, as stated. The materials were useful.
(Of course, not everyone agrees with me.)]
Remember, I never advocate my form of super charged PFAL to new people, only OLGs who have already had a lot of focused KJV study, and now after many years after the ministry meltdown many of them have shopped around other Biblical writers for a little balance as well. My message has always been a focus toward OLGs and it's "come back" to PFAL.
[Well, no one who hasn't had the years of "God spoke to vpw"
indoctrination takes you seriously. So, anyone other than an "Older Leader Grad"
laughs in your face. Hence, only OLGs get targeted for your message.
So, we agree you only target OLGs.
And "super-charged PFAL"? :blink: ]
As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?
[Raf, The idea of "replacement" comes up in the ChattyKathy dialog which is referenced in my response to WordWolf below. ]
WordWolf,
You wrote: “You've said before that the only Bible verses that MATTER are
the ones in the pfal books.”
Yes, but ONLY to OLGs who’ve had decades to learn all the other verses.
***
You wrote: “Therefore, someone following YOUR method-as you've advocated-will turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers, and NEVER crack open a Bible, EVER.”
No. Again, it’s only OLGs who I advocate to “turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers”
... and these OLGs are expert Bible-crackers from their youth.
What I have urged is that OLGs reverse their priority scheduling wise. Where in the past we OLGs would read the KJV 10 to 100 times as many hours per month as we would read PFAL, I advocate we OLGs now read PFAL 10 to 100 times as much as our KJVs.
***
You wrote: “I also drew a distinction between PFAL -the books and tapes-
and YOUR doctrine and methodology- since they often lead in OPPOSITE directions.”
I don’t follow what you mean here.
***
I had written: “These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible.”
And you responded: “I can agree with that sentence, as stated. The materials were useful. (Of course, not everyone agrees with me.)”
Well I am one who does agree with you here. Thank you for this agreement. Maybe we can build some mutual respect for each other based on what beliefs we share instead of focusing on where we disagree.
***
You wrote: “Well, no one who hasn't had the years of "God spoke to vpw"
indoctrination takes you seriously. So, anyone other than an "Older Leader Grad"
laughs in your face. Hence, only OLGs get targeted for your message.
So, we agree you only target OLGs.”
Right, as a practical matter it would be silly for me to even try to approach nonOLGs.
But I see a doctrinal matter in it, too. It has to do with the idea of PFAL being ONLY ADDRESSED to grads. This came up twice in my lengthy post.
I’ve been trying to slog through 3 years of resistance here to get this idea of ADDRESSED TO GRADS, and to OLG grads at that, to the general mindset of those who read my posts.
Just as my message is addressed only to OLGs,
so it seems to me right now that PFAL is addressed only to OLGs.
It’s taken me three years to get this to this point.
***
You wrote: “And ‘super-charged PFAL’?”
Yes. I’ve mentioned this before with different nomenclature like “second time through.”
In the years of our (OLGS) first time through PFAL not as much was available to us. We could only receive a 5-senses understanding of it, and we didn’t even have a complete collection of the writings yet.
The second time through (ALL the writings) the spiritual understanding is available.
***
I wrote: “As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?”
And you responded with: “But- any new person will be AVOIDED in your approach!”
I not sure I understand you comment.
The dialog I had with Chatty involved a hypothetical “new person” who happened upon PFAL materials. I was not in that dialog arguing FOR a new person opening up PFAL materials. I can paste in that dialog if you’d like to see it.
Accusation, fault finding and laying guilt are not sonship rights and God doesn’t use them to motivate his children to know his Word. In fact, he gave his son so that we no longer have to reap the consequences of sin and guilt. Remember Romans – Shall Christ lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?
Mike, you compared me to Craig Martindale. It’s interesting to me how guilt and accusation rolls off your fingertips as easily as it rolled off his tongue.
My point to you hasn’t changed - the biggest part of having a renewed mind lies in knowing who one is in Christ. Your statements over the last couple pages make it quite clear that you still don’t have a clue what your identity is yet. If you did you would think twice about laying guilt at the feet of one whose life was paid for by the blood of Christ.
My choice to know God’s Word comes from understanding the love he has for me. Why in the world would I want to allow a dishonest and accusative man be a part of that? Timothy was told to study to show himself approved unto God. Timothy was already approved of God, in Christ, why would Paul tell him this?
Because the scriptures reveal the approval. Study to show himself approved unto God. In other words, study so you can know you are approved unto God. Quite a different approach from studying so God will approve of me.
This is why you’re a dishonest workman Mike. Your identity, and therefore your knowledge of God’s approval of his children is still unclear to you.
Oldiesman, I’ve seen enough of Mike’s heart to know who’s works he’s magnifying.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
45
44
64
30
Popular Days
Feb 9
42
Dec 12
39
Dec 8
35
Dec 13
33
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 45 posts
WordWolf 44 posts
Mike 64 posts
doojable 30 posts
Popular Days
Feb 9 2006
42 posts
Dec 12 2005
39 posts
Dec 8 2005
35 posts
Dec 13 2005
33 posts
dmiller
Thanks for that all-important *IF* Mike. :)
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
"All of this, all of this can be yours
All of this, all of this can be yours
All of this, all of this can be yours
Just give me what I want...and no one gets hurt"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I'd like to take this moment to compliment "a simple guy" again.
He may be uncomplicated, straightforward and direct,
but this is know way interferes with his ability to see deeply.
He seems to have cut to the heart of issues in few words.
He's made a heck of a first impression.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A simple guy
Wordwolf,
I'm flattered, thanks for the kind words.
I was a little surprised to walk into all of this but it won't change God's Word
...or what Christ accomplished.
What does that mean? "Wants to sit at the counter"
Just curious, I don't remember saying that when I signed up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Those little titles change periodically with the number of posts you have.
Most of them are related to the "cafe" motif of the site & board.
If you don't like your CURRENT one, you can go into your profile
and CHANGE it. :) A lot of us eventually change ours,
AND select or download a pic for our profile as well.
You can also add a signature, which you can select to be displayed
with each post-or not, at the time you submit the post.
In this post, I selected to display my profile.
You don't have to come up with all of these at once,
and you can change them anytime you like. :)
I've previously used a signature that advertised a nonexistent
ministry called "Certain Lewd Fellows of the Baser Sort"
("CLFBS Ministries! Join now!")
and one that oversimplified the position of excusing someone
from committing various felonies and crimes because you
were taught-and that you don't care that others suffer, just so
long as you were taught. (....."I got mine-who cares that you
suffer?") (Actual posts, BTW, inspired and justified that, and
my signature was a modification of another person's response
to them as well.)
BTW, I recommend a visit to "Greasespot 101", and there's
an introduction to the forums in the "About the Way" forum,
pinned to the top. That may also come in handy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
A Simple Guy,
Welcome to Greasespot.
I don't think Mike has exalted PFAL above the finished work of Jesus Christ.
To the contrary, much of the PFAL materials expound the finished work of Jesus Christ, and all that He accomplished for us. So by mastering PFAL, one delves in Christ's accomplishments.
Here are some examples:
You are Righteous Now
The Unqualified Commitment
The Palms of God
Release from Your Prisons
God Rescued Us
Your Power of Attorney
One Baptism
Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore
As He Is, So Are We
Ekklesia Bride or Body?
Confession of Belief Yields Receipt of Confession
God is our Sufficiency
Broken Body and Shed Blood
We have this Treasure in Earthen Vessels
Are You Limiting God?
The Church the Great Mystery Revealed
Complete in Him
The Bondage of the Sabbath Day
God's Resting Place
Filled to Overflowing
The Final Victory
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Must we get a list of chapter titles that prove nothing every three weeks or so?
Those chapter titles don't prove that Mike hasn't exalted PFAL over the finished work of Christ. Mike has written that Christ learned from PFAL. Jesus Christ, THE WORD, learning from PFAL!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
How in the world can someone who pushes PFAL exalt PFAL above Christ, when PFAL itself exalts Christ?
That's like saying I won't drink Drambuie, but I will drink scotch.
It's the same darn thing, with a little honey added.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
The same way a nation can worship a bronze snake originally employed by their God to heal them, Oldies.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A simple guy
Hi Oldiesman,
A person can magnify their own works above Christ even when those works are works of studying God's Word. The pharisees had this one down pretty good - John 5:18-39.
A man can chose this path, don't demand it of me though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Presuming your initial premise-that PFAL exalts Christ-is true (which I would argue
it doesn't on a different occasion),
someone does not have to push something SENSIBLE to push something.
The words of Christ are in the Bible.
The words of pfal are in pfal.
Mike advocates reading pfal to the exclusion of the Bible-if you have access to both.
Mike has said
"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand
and teaching you from it." 2/2/04, 12:17am Eastern.
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested
in PFAL. He told me so." 2/3/04 5:22am, Eastern.
Those were single-sentence posts, BTW.
Adding things that Jesus Christ PROBABLY had nothing to do with
to the words of Christ, BTW, waters down/adulterates the word of Christ.
===
Please also note that Mikean pfal is NOT the same as PFAL.
Those of us who studied PFAL studied something completely different
than what Mike's proposing.
Mikean pfal, for example, is a replacement for the Bible.
PFAL says-right in the opening of the Orange Book-that it is on KEYS,
and is NOT a replacement for the Bible.
(It says "Genesis to Revelation", which is a figure of speech saying
"the Bible"-synecdoche, if you want to know the figure.)
One CAN read PFAL and learn some useful Bible stuff.
The Mikean pfal, however, leads AWAY from the Bible,
and the Mikean approach is to throw away all Bibles, all Christian
writings by any other writer, and anything else containing print,
and reading nothing but vpw books and magazine articles,
and listening to nothing BUT vpw tapes.
(With occasional supplements from approved sources.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
A simple guy, I understand what you're saying, but I think you'd have to know Mike's heart to know if he's magnifying his works above Christ.
Besides, this topic really isn't about Mike, it's really about whether PFAL teaches the Word of God.
If it does not, we should chuck it...
But if it does, we would do well to master it.
Or those parts that teach God's Word.
Why do you think many folks still cling to PFAL? Because of Wierwille? Nah.
Because although it isn't perfect, PFAL teaches God's Word many times over.
Just review the materials if you like, and you will see it all over again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
A simple guy,
My take on your comments is that you are forgetting that the gift of holy spirit does not affect the mind.
Your comments on the finished work of Christ are true, but refer NOT to the whole thoughts in a believers mind that must be worked for. Your comments refer to the aquisituion of spirit.
We were saved (given spirit) UNTO good works. It seems that good works and working out our own salvation (in the soul/mind category) have taken on a bad reputation among a certain strain of grads in the past 18 years, due to the heavy work load of the Corps program.
And WW, I wish you wouldn't mis-represent me so.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[Doesn't take many posts of Mike's to determine that.
Actually, as of the other day, it takes fewer posts, since he's being
a lot more candid in his posting, less coy.
Now we can have a nice civil discussion on content-in theory, anyway.]
[FALSE DILEMMA,aka BIFURCATION.
Once again, that is the separating of a discussion into TWO
positions when there are MORE THAN TWO positions to hold.
For example,
"Either PFAL is completely useless or PFAL sprang forth from God's temple!"
would be a FALSE DILEMMA.
PFAL could be the work of a man, and have some useful
things, and some error. Therefore, SOME of it may be useful,
which would be more useful once it's separated from the error.
In fact, such is the case.
Your statement once again IGNORES that position.
If ONE SENTENCE in PFAL is useful, that hardly elevates the
entire thing to Divine status, let alone "master the whole thing" status.
Furthermore,
"mastering the Orange Book and the White Book", for example,
would actually give you a MUCH different result than
"mastering" the Mikean system of "pfal", as he claims it is.
And THAT IS on-topic for this thread.]
[FALSE DILEMMA NUMBER TWO!
"People who cling to PFAL either do so because of Wierwille
OR
because 'PFAL teaches God's Word many times over.' "
With no other possibilities.
Oh, there's so MANY reasons some folks still cling to PFAL.
MOST of them ARE because of Wierwille in one way or another.
twi innies were told all other Christians live in ERROR,
and that they can cling to twi and pfal, or wallow in ERROR.
(Yes, THAT was a False Dilemma also.)
twi innies were told that they had a special doctrine FROM God because
their teacher-who called himself THE Teacher- supposedly had a special
connection to God-and that they were being taught like
First Century Christians, and GREATER than anything Christians
had learned for NINETEEN CENTURIES.
So, even if they leave twi the organization,
many find they have not left the specific indoctrination.
They are afraid to be exposed to other Christians and touch ERROR.
They are afraid to discover twi taught some error, also.
(Well, humans don't teach PERFECT doctrine-which is contrary to
twi but matches common sense.)]
[Or, you know, he or she can look over some quality materials fromOTHER Christians, and see that there's BETTER material available,
and easily findable.]
==================
Actually,
since those ARE your exact words,
and they represent what you said AND meant,
and they represent the position you have not changed from,
I represented you accurately.
You wish I wouldn't ACCURATELY QUOTE you so.
Hey, I could have gone into what you've said about vpw
himself, but I didn't.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WW,
You wrote: "The Mikean pfal, however, leads AWAY from the Bible..."
Yet, in my class materials nearly every page has Bible verses for study, and the net effect of the materials is to OPEN the Bible for students better than any other method in 2000 years.
These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible.
Remember, I never advocate my form of super charged PFAL to new people, only OLGs who have already had a lot of focused KJV study, and now after many years after the ministry meltdown many of them have shopped around other Biblical writers for a little balance as well. My message has always been a focus toward OLGs and it's "come back" to PFAL.
As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I have no problem with Wierwille's books. I think they're fine, and I appreciate a lot of what's in there. I just don't think they're perfect, and I acknowledge the existence of plagiarism in them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Me too Mike.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
oldiesman,
Thanks. And there are many thousands of us grads who think the same way who never post here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
And there are many more who recognize that PFAL was a tool that brought them to the Bible, not a new replacement for it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
[Raf, The idea of "replacement" comes up in the ChattyKathy dialog which is referenced in my response to WordWolf below. ]
WordWolf,
You wrote: “You've said before that the only Bible verses that MATTER are
the ones in the pfal books.”
Yes, but ONLY to OLGs who’ve had decades to learn all the other verses.
***
You wrote: “Therefore, someone following YOUR method-as you've advocated-will turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers, and NEVER crack open a Bible, EVER.”
No. Again, it’s only OLGs who I advocate to “turn to vpw's books and tapes for answers”
... and these OLGs are expert Bible-crackers from their youth.
What I have urged is that OLGs reverse their priority scheduling wise. Where in the past we OLGs would read the KJV 10 to 100 times as many hours per month as we would read PFAL, I advocate we OLGs now read PFAL 10 to 100 times as much as our KJVs.
***
You wrote: “I also drew a distinction between PFAL -the books and tapes-
and YOUR doctrine and methodology- since they often lead in OPPOSITE directions.”
I don’t follow what you mean here.
***
I had written: “These materials led me TO the Bible. It led all the other OLGs to the Bible too. If it weren't for the class I'd know nothing about the Bible.”
And you responded: “I can agree with that sentence, as stated. The materials were useful. (Of course, not everyone agrees with me.)”
Well I am one who does agree with you here. Thank you for this agreement. Maybe we can build some mutual respect for each other based on what beliefs we share instead of focusing on where we disagree.
***
You wrote: “Well, no one who hasn't had the years of "God spoke to vpw"
indoctrination takes you seriously. So, anyone other than an "Older Leader Grad"
laughs in your face. Hence, only OLGs get targeted for your message.
So, we agree you only target OLGs.”
Right, as a practical matter it would be silly for me to even try to approach nonOLGs.
But I see a doctrinal matter in it, too. It has to do with the idea of PFAL being ONLY ADDRESSED to grads. This came up twice in my lengthy post.
I’ve been trying to slog through 3 years of resistance here to get this idea of ADDRESSED TO GRADS, and to OLG grads at that, to the general mindset of those who read my posts.
Just as my message is addressed only to OLGs,
so it seems to me right now that PFAL is addressed only to OLGs.
It’s taken me three years to get this to this point.
***
You wrote: “And ‘super-charged PFAL’?”
Yes. I’ve mentioned this before with different nomenclature like “second time through.”
In the years of our (OLGS) first time through PFAL not as much was available to us. We could only receive a 5-senses understanding of it, and we didn’t even have a complete collection of the writings yet.
The second time through (ALL the writings) the spiritual understanding is available.
***
I wrote: “As I have argued before in a wonderful dialog with ChattyCathy, any new person opening up PFAL materials will soon be picking up their KJV for deeper study. How could they NOT?”
And you responded with: “But- any new person will be AVOIDED in your approach!”
I not sure I understand you comment.
The dialog I had with Chatty involved a hypothetical “new person” who happened upon PFAL materials. I was not in that dialog arguing FOR a new person opening up PFAL materials. I can paste in that dialog if you’d like to see it.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
CM
yes it does
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Later on. After holy spirit is received. After that mind feeds from the written Word provided.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A simple guy
Accusation, fault finding and laying guilt are not sonship rights and God doesn’t use them to motivate his children to know his Word. In fact, he gave his son so that we no longer have to reap the consequences of sin and guilt. Remember Romans – Shall Christ lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?
Mike, you compared me to Craig Martindale. It’s interesting to me how guilt and accusation rolls off your fingertips as easily as it rolled off his tongue.
My point to you hasn’t changed - the biggest part of having a renewed mind lies in knowing who one is in Christ. Your statements over the last couple pages make it quite clear that you still don’t have a clue what your identity is yet. If you did you would think twice about laying guilt at the feet of one whose life was paid for by the blood of Christ.
My choice to know God’s Word comes from understanding the love he has for me. Why in the world would I want to allow a dishonest and accusative man be a part of that? Timothy was told to study to show himself approved unto God. Timothy was already approved of God, in Christ, why would Paul tell him this?
Because the scriptures reveal the approval. Study to show himself approved unto God. In other words, study so you can know you are approved unto God. Quite a different approach from studying so God will approve of me.
This is why you’re a dishonest workman Mike. Your identity, and therefore your knowledge of God’s approval of his children is still unclear to you.
Oldiesman, I’ve seen enough of Mike’s heart to know who’s works he’s magnifying.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.