I am sorry that you experienced such high pressure tactics.
I was fortunate in that I did not. I sought out PFAL, after once being witnessed to about it.
I have never been to a 'Billy Graham' rally. but from the way they are hyped, I would expect long before I got there that once inside I would be pressured for 2 hours to finally once and for all give my life to Jesus. I find it amazing that any 'un-beleiver' would allow himself to be dragged to see Billy Graham, unless they are already a beleiver, in which case, as a recruitment tool it seems kind of silly.
I believe that in general most of the people really thought that what they were offering was going to be a blessing to the persons life. Unfortunately they were talked into a system that was made for selling cars and stereos not the Bible. I fought for years about this very thing, when the Corps would come to town and want a list of people or friends to contact I never gave them any. I just said all my friends have already been contacted. Which was somewhat believable seeing as how since we were only 45 min from Emporia and we had some group here almost every other week. I just forgot to tell them that they were contacted by me.
I can't stand being high pressure sold, like I'm too stupid to make my own choices and ask a question if I need to. Just yesterday at Best Buy I had this happen. I was trying to look at some things and I swear 10 people kept making me stop what I was doing and engage them in their offer to help. After about the tenth one I had enough and when he asked if he could help for a second time after I had said no thanks a few minutes earlier I said yeah you can you can leave me the hell alone so I can do what I came here to do. I explained that I did not really want to be rude but that I could not even shop because I was constantly having to stop and engage sales people in conversation. I explained that I knew how to find the things I was looking for and that if I had any questions I was smart enough to find someone in a blue vest on my own and ask. They got the point.....
I watched the rise of "think and grow rich sales" in the Way happen it was always sad to see for me. I remember telling a branch leader that it was degrading to what we had to offer and to God to sell it like a refrigerator or a car. That went over as you can imagine real big and earned me a spot on the B list for the rest of their time here. I to this day don't doubt that they really thought that they were helping people they were unfortunately sucked into the carnal sales machine of the day. People who were sold something that they did not really want did not last it produced classes but with no fruitful end result. It's true in life. How well do you take care of something that you really wanted and worked hard to get, as opposed to something you got with no effort generally the thing you worked and saved for gets better care.
A true Doveman story: There was a class promo thing happening and I wanted to take this girl that I had been dating a few times to it . I thought the class information would have benefited her life at that time. I think it was the when the Changed film was out and some Way Productions came down from Emporia and some Way Corps. I remember Skip Mesquite was there and shared about his life and they played some songs. Any way I knew what was going to happen and just wanted her to see the film and hear the music without the sales pitch after. So I devised this plan with 5 friends I knew the layout of the evening from the coordinators meeting and so I arrived at the last minute knowing that they would roll on time. That way we could slide in the back instead of being ushered up front (closer to the door) After the end I had arranged the five friends to run interference for me so I could escape out the door. I knew that they would be ready to pounce when the lights came up. I also knew I had the tactical advantage since they did not know who were grads or not so they grabbed anyone who looked like they were heading for the door. As they came our way my friends engaged them allowing me to escape into the night. I told the girl upfront, what was up and that they were good people and that they really believed in the what the class had to offer and it had changed their lives as well as mine. But I also knew that for that to happen you had to want that and I just wanted to offer her the chance to make her own decision. We went for coffee and talked for a long time but she eventually chose to not take PFAL. Of course after first weeks of hot sex, I dumped her unbelieving devil spirit possessed foot. Just Kidding!
I can't say I was happy at the time with her choice but we remain friends and that coffee pot has not run dry to this day.........
I am sorry that you experienced such high pressure tactics.
I was fortunate in that I did not. I sought out PFAL, after once being witnessed to about it.
I have never been to a 'Billy Graham' rally. but from the way they are hyped, I would expect long before I got there that once inside I would be pressured for 2 hours to finally once and for all give my life to Jesus. I find it amazing that any 'un-beleiver' would allow himself to be dragged to see Billy Graham, unless they are already a beleiver, in which case, as a recruitment tool it seems kind of silly.
Neither was I pressured, at least not individually, to take PFAL. Just as I was not pressured individually, when I went to a Billy Graham rally, to accept Christ (I already had, this was in 1987, but there was no individual pressure...of course how could there be with all the thousands there). One can deem the teachings in twig of how great The Word is, or the preaching by Billy Graham on how wonderful accepting Jesus Christ is, as pressure I suppose, but there was nothing said to me individually. In fact, no one even told me I should stop going to the (Methodist) church I was going to for a while as I went to twig.
I was never one for putting on the pressure either. The famous motivational techniques we were taught in residence at Emporia was not my bag.
A common recruitment tool was our own youth and cuteness. How many cute guys brought tons of girls to twig and vice versa? Many times when I was single we girls dressed up cute and went to clubs and bars to witness, reel in some guy who was looking for a girlfriend and try to get him to twig... I know I hurt more than one guys feelings with my 'go to twig, I'm not interested in you except as a babe in the Word' stuff. It wasn't honest, I had an agenda I didn't come right out with from the very beginning.
Bramble, I was never cute enough to do that...I always looked very very young and tom boy.... but we did do other things that made me feel dirty.
I remember when I finally signed up to go into the corpes....I was SO excited about getting to go to my first app corps meeting....finally, I was going to get to be in one on those meetings for the spiritually sharp...I was going to begin my education ito become spiritually mature. When we arrived...to my intense dissapointment.....our lc simply divided us up into pairs and dropped us around the city for *witnessing*...
On the drive home (I had driven almost two hours to get to enjoy this privilege) I was so blue.... I remember feeling so bad....like I was a high pressure salesman for God....I felt like I was going to have to sell oranges like I did in high school and detested ....forever.
It was such a bleak feeling...I realised that from that point on I would always have to have an agenda....I would always have to have a person in each class...that was how are spiritual progress would be graded.....I wouldn`t be allowed to have any friends outside of twi.....I was ashamed....and then I was deeply ashamed of being ashamed....assuming of course that it was only my lack of spirituality that allowed me to feel this way. :(
By the time I got involved there wasn't much youth and cuteness left. "Class explanations" were just one big sales pitch and there was no pretending they were anything else. If there was someone you were "working with" but who hadn't signed up for the class yet, you were to bring them to a class explanation where the local WC would "close the deal".
It was very high pressure, but I consider using God's name and his protection on your life as high pressure and spiritual blackmail. M@tthew H@rmon was really good at it, but not really good at keeping people around.
When we had coffee houses they weren't for fun, they were for signing people up for the class. We all knew it. There wasn't any secular anything allowed at these things, which I suspect really turned people off. "What are all these God freaks doing? Is that all they talk about? Do they really think those skits are funny? OMG, that is NOT how I want to live!"
One girl I worked with came to fellowship with me (I brought a lot of people, but they usually only came once). She looked at all the bottled water the guys had all over the house and overflowing in the kitchen with the rest of their Y2K supplies - laughed - and said, "What are y'all? Some kind of cult?" LOL!!!
Of course we tried to explain to her about "preparing for the worst, but praying for the best" - she would hear none of it - kept saying we were some kind of doomsday cult..... I shoulda left with her.
I remember, too, witnessing door to door under M@tthew H@rmon's watch. Of course HE didn't go, HE had to stay at the contact point so that HE could meet us when we were done. He wanted us to quit wasting time and do away with the niceties. Just knock on the door and when they answer, tell them that we run a home based biblical research ministry and ask if they're interested. If not, don't waste your time and move on to the next house. We were expected to get five contacts within an hour.
How well do you think that went over? Think any of us got our five contacts? What would you say if someone came to your door like that? I was with D@n Briener. Poor guy was the nicest man but terribly shy. He tried so hard and felt so bad when we didn't have any contacts. I felt bad for him because he felt so horrible about letting Matthew down.
The only fake and misleading things we did was to avoid telling people the name of our group and that we spoke in tongues until they came to their first meeting. Oh, we also acted like everything was all lightness and love in the group. That usually only lasted a few weeks, though. Then you were expected to listen to the STS tapes with one of us and sign up for the class. :blink:
... It is not that I feel like the musicians were duplicitous necissarily ....I think that unbeknownst to them.... their skill and enthusiasm, their wholesomness were probably packaged and marketed for a recruitment tool for twi. ...
No question about it, I think they were there to sign up as many folks for PFAL as possible, and they knew it.
Just the same as the purpose of the WOW program, to sign up as many folks to PFAL as possible.
Was that manipulation? as in "unbeknownst to them"..?
How can it be, when you know exactly what you are there for?
We all knew why we were in the various programs we were in and what the purposes were.
Fast forward 30 years later... NOW, some think we were manipulated, because now, PFAL stinks, to some.
But back then, PFAL was the accuracy of God's Word and we wanted to share it with anybody and everybody who would listen, because we literally believed that God wanted everyone to hear it.
And so I think, it isn't the recruitment tools that are REALLY the issue, it is whether or not PFAL was promoting the rightly divided Word of God.
If it was, damn straight I'm going to try to sign up as many folks as possible!
Bramble, I was never cute enough to do that...I always looked very very young and tom boy.... but we did do other things that made me feel dirty.
I remember when I finally signed up to go into the corpes....I was SO excited about getting to go to my first app corps meeting....finally, I was going to get to be in one on those meetings for the spiritually sharp...I was going to begin my education ito become spiritually mature. When we arrived...to my intense dissapointment.....our lc simply divided us up into pairs and dropped us around the city for *witnessing*...
On the drive home (I had driven almost two hours to get to enjoy this privilege) I was so blue.... I remember feeling so bad....like I was a high pressure salesman for God....I felt like I was going to have to sell oranges like I did in high school and detested ....forever.
It was such a bleak feeling...I realised that from that point on I would always have to have an agenda....I would always have to have a person in each class...that was how are spiritual progress would be graded.....I wouldn`t be allowed to have any friends outside of twi.....I was ashamed....and then I was deeply ashamed of being ashamed....assuming of course that it was only my lack of spirituality that allowed me to feel this way. :(
Gods, we have so much in common. I wonder if we were apprentice corps the same year? My first apprentice corps meeting was like three hours away from where I lived and it started early in the morning so I left the night before, drove like two hours, stayed at a fellow apprentice corps house and we left from there while still dark to drive.
After all that, there was NO Breakfast, no nothing and we didn't grab anything to eat on the way thinking there would at least be coffee. Immediately we were paired up to witness all over the city we were in. Didn't get to eat until late afternoon. I knew I was not into starving to move the word. It was more than that, it told me that they didn't care for their people or plan for them and their benefit and if that didn't prove it then subsequent apprentice corps meetings where we cooked, cleaned and tilled the area leader's home and garden.
But back on topic, every meeting, coffee house, open meeting with visiting leadership were all used as recruitment tools for PFAL or to go WOW. Remember that African American group that did songs and traveled with Cla****** R****? They came around often promoting PFAL and the WOW program.
think back on other events that I participated in....how many times did we have coffee houses or events that we were to invite people to...... we then were to use these as *open doors* for witnessing....a way to get someone to sign up for the class....in looking back.....it doesn`t seem like it ever really was about simply *blessing* people ....
Roa seemed consumed with corpes recruitment....wow promo...college division...etc
So much of the music we loved to hear contained themes of wow commitment...witnessing...tithe........
per Samurai:
But back on topic, every meeting, coffee house, open meeting with visiting leadership were all used as recruitment tools for PFAL or to go WOW
Per Belle:
By the time I got involved there wasn't much youth and cuteness left. "Class explanations" were just one big sales pitch and there was no pretending they were anything else. If there was someone you were "working with" but who hadn't signed up for the class yet, you were to bring them to a class explanation where the local WC would "close the deal".
It was very high pressure, but I consider using God's name and his protection on your life as high pressure and spiritual blackmail.
Per WhiteDove:
I watched the rise of "think and grow rich sales" in the Way happen it was always sad to see for me. I remember telling a branch leader that it was degrading to what we had to offer and to God to sell it like a refrigerator or a car. That went over as you can imagine real big and earned me a spot on the B list for the rest of their time here. I to this day don't doubt that they really thought that they were helping people they were unfortunately sucked into the carnal sales machine of the day.
As was said, the TWI rank & file members were generally deceived into thinking that TWI’s various open functions, oozing with recruitment, were somehow something good & needful for the ‘new people.’
All of us are transiently vulnerable to cult recruitment. So many cults, using so many guises and ploys, are actively looking for members at any given moment that surely there may be a cult for you. Whatever your age, whatever your interests, whatever your life-style, succumbing to the lure of a cultic recruiter is as easy as getting a library card. There are as many ways to become involved with a cult as there are cults.
Each group develops its own recruitment methods – ranging from personal contacts to public explanations to musical events, in newspapers and magazines, and on television and radio. The original point of recruitment may vary, but one constant factor is that rampant deceptions are involved. These deceptions extend from concealment of exactly what the group is at “the point of pick up” to concealment of the ultimate purpose of membership. These deceptions lie at the heart of a lack of informed consent.
Cult recruitment occurs in 4 main stages: the first approach by a cult recruiter; the invitation to a wonderful place or special event or an important, alluring meeting; the first contact with the cult, where you are made to feel loved and wanted; and then the follow-up, using psychologically persuasive techniques to ensure your quick return or greater commitment.
By and large, cult members did not seek out the group they joined but were personally approached in some way during a period of temporary vulnerability. Cult members are trained in persuasive methods of approaching potential recruits. Because we are all social creatures, most of us are prone to listen to nice-looking people who approach us in a friendly or helping manner and speak enthusiastically about what they believe in. Cults aim their recruitment at vulnerable people because these individuals are less likely to see through the multiple layers of deceit. The recruiter must manipulate the first conversation, getting enough information about the person to shape the discussion and make the group seem like something the person would want to know or experience.
The above is of course the essence of TWI’s sales’ classes: the Witnessing & Undersheperding seminar once offered ‘on the field,’ & Christian Motivational Techniques, taught to the Way Corps. As noted above, cults aim their recruitment at vulnerable people because these individuals are less likely to see through the multiple layers of deceit. In TWI’s recruiting methodology, individuals suffering a transient vulnerability were said to have “needs.” A major focus of TWI recruitment is determining these so-called “needs” in order to manipulate the potential recruit. TWI’s cult recruiters are taught how to “close the deal” so as to get the potential new recruit into TWI’s entry level class, whether pfal or wap.
Such great honesty & integrity from a Biblical research, teaching, & fellowship ‘ministry!’
It was all so embarassing belle, .....I remember speaking to people....inviting friends and people who trusted me....knowing that when they arrived to whatever I had invited them to, that they would be pressured into becoming involved.
Public x`s ...coffee houses...movie nights...coffee at the local omelete shop.... all were under the guise of speaking the word....the person that we were witnessing to thought that we just liked them....
The shame of knowing that I was being dishonest verses the shame of being viewed as unspiritual were always at war within me.....
I look back at my time in twi and it seems I sure spent a lot of time being embarrassed, scared, and pressured.....
Oldies man, I never got involved with twi to become a salesman for God...a hawker of classes....I was told that taking pfal would change my life....all that I recall was being put on track to become a better and better salesman/recruiter. It never really seemed to be about caring for the individual or helping them after they were finally considered *in the bag* once the green card was signed....
There was always some other class or some other program needed in order to achieve the desired spirituality ...prosperity ...etc.
One of the things required to grow spiritualy or to be recognized as worthey was bringing new folks ...and having someone to undershepherd.
You had to do these things or be consigned to the *spitual bump on the log* catagory.
Samurai, that totally sucks and does indeed sound like what I endured.
I remember a weekend advance..... the guys got to go with the lc fishing and the watch a ball game....what did the gals get to do???? We had one *class* after another on how to be a good wife. (I was single btw)
We learned how to put these men first....minister to them so that they could best service the body....how to be submissive to a man who was spiritually your inferior...and THEN we fixed the meal for the guys! Oh boy! What a blessing THAT weekend was.....the ONLY reason we gals were there were there was to fix food and tend to the guys of the limb....aaugh
More later, the kiddoes have art lessons this morning....lol
Oldies man, I never got involved with twi to become a salesman for God...a hawker of classes....I was told that taking pfal would change my life....all that I recall was being put on track to become a better and better salesman/recruiter. It never really seemed to be about caring for the individual or helping them after they were finally considered *in the bag* once the green card was signed....
There were so many kind and caring folks in twi (as stated by many folks on these threads including you) I can't imagine why you would think that folks wouldn't be concerned if you had a problem and needed help.
Take a Stand were folks who wanted to sign up folks for the class, for the glory of God, so folks who wanted it could come to the knowledge of the truth. That sounds caring to me. And I'm sure if someone they signed up wanted to share a problem, Take a Stand were there to help if they could.
Yeah, I remember that African American group - New Horizons? They came to Jackson, MS and sang on the limb leaders' roof top. What I remember is feeling so numb and blah when I was supposed to be so blessed.
They pretty much took other people's music and changed the lyrics.
That same day, we had to go all over the city with flyers inviting people to the music fest with New Horizons.
To this day, when I hear a certain song, it reminds me of them and what they changed it to. I still have their tape but I never wanted to listen to it because it reminded me of being in Mississippi with the L#llys - the two worst years of my entire life.
Oh yeah, and "Mo Tech." What a scam, having to sell PFAL like encyclopedias and vacuum cleaners.
How to lead a person step by step into signing up. So blantantly manipulative. I never was comfortable with it.
One time I while on Light Bearers I led somebody all the way through to sign up but couldn't bring myself to close the deal because I felt so phoney about it.
I was relentlessly pressured to sign up for pfal, and from that point on the pressure never let up for me to sign other folks up.
I worked at a pet store that operated just like this.....we had a three page guide to follow where a person would be manuvered into a corner and end up buying a 500 dollar dog that they didn`t need or really want....and could have bought for 100 out of any newspaper.....
Every month there were new sales goals to be met or get fired....what you did last month was of no consequence...it was all about the numbers....kudos and pats on the back for success....dire consequences for failure.
TWI was like this from the very first day I started attending fellowships.... and the pressure to preform never let up.
Yeah folks would be concerned if you had a problem....only as long as you were preforming....if you weren`t, it was figured you were simply getting what you deserved.
Oldies and Rascal, I am guessing that Oldies (and I) took PFAL some years before Rascal. It seems from descriptions of TWI life I have seen on GS than there was a general increase in pressure to do a lot of things with time. Perhaps that is the reason for your different descriptions. I was not pressured at all. But as 8th corps in residence, we got taught the motivational techniques class, which was essentially instructions to do it with pressure.
A lot of what people have said brings back a lot of memories. Some good, quite a lot of them bad.
I remember when i got in in the service, there was a lot of grea fellowship (cira. 1974 in Puerto Rico) not very much pressure and quite a few great people that really cared for people. If you had a need people back then really tried to help out and get answers for your needs.
At the end, (end of 1979 into 1980 when i got out) it was getting into a lot of the legalism that was (and is well known) to be going on then and now.
I was pressured into going WOW when i was living in Emporia in early 1979. The WC that got me signed up for WOW (more like forced) had all of the 'Pat' answers for why i "should" go WOW. I left a good job (Emporia Wholesale Coffee Co.) that was paying a little more than minimum wage at the time. If i was in my right mind i would have stayed working and not have wound up going wow. But in some respects going WOW woke me up and i got out after moving to the Quad City area of Iowa.
It's been a little over 25 years since i have gotten out. One thing that i have to say is that if any of the people that lived in the area that i lived in in Wyoming and helped witnessed to in Sheridan and Rawlins, Wyoming from after the Rock of 1979 to the rock of 1980 that are still in and secretly reading the forums, know that it's not all sweetness and nice at TWI anymore and the preassure and controll that they have over you is not for your best intrest. All TWI wants is the ABS money that is generated and the controll that thwy can userp over you.
That is simply your perspective of your personal situation oldies.... and as such not at all applicable to me or the pressures that were relentlessly applied to me to preform in twi.
As it was presented to me by twi....there was only ONE direction to go IF I wanted to remain in the center of God`s will and therefor under his protection.
Any OTHER choice would be unto our spiritual and eventual physical death...yeah a real choice THERE buddy
TWI as a supposed Christian organization had no business kicking me or anyone else in any direction for that matter
Oldies and Rascal, I am guessing that Oldies (and I) took PFAL some years before Rascal. It seems from descriptions of TWI life I have seen on GS than there was a general increase in pressure to do a lot of things with time. Perhaps that is the reason for your different descriptions. I was not pressured at all. But as 8th corps in residence, we got taught the motivational techniques class, which was essentially instructions to do it with pressure.
Lifted,
There was pressure in twi programs, no question about it; ... but folks were not obligated to participate in those programs.
Pressure, as I see it, challenges folks to become better and stronger.
My last twi program was WOW in 1979-80.
From August 1980 thru August 1991, around 11 years in twi, there was some light pressure, but certainly nothing I or the average person couldn't handle.
Twig fellowship once a week, plus every now and then attending a few classes, seminars, weekends in the word.
And only when I wanted to.
If I didn't want to attend something, I didn't.
I didn't allow ANYONE to control my life.
Month long motorcycle trip with VP & Mrs., in June of 1984, was one of the greatest weeks of my life.
But I think what "Take A Stand" did was to try to get folks to the point of making a decision, either for or against.
I see nothing wrong with that;...heck I did that myself when I went out WOW twice.
Just because you didn`t see anything that was wrong....doesn`t negate the intense high pressure sales tactics that were utilized to persuade us to function for twi`s benefit.
From the instant I was introduced to twi, the pressure to preform in order to stay within the center of God`s will and thus outside of the devils ability to harm me.....was intense.
They utilized the fear of God`s lack of ability to protect us if we didn`t preform in a prescribed manner to motivate us to do the recruiting in spite of our misgivings and embarrasment.
You're both right. There was pressure. It wasn't absolute. It was felt differently by each of you. Surprise. We have two different people (or three if you add me) with different experiences.
I could elaborate further while I am hanging around, and I am no longer afraid of getting chewed from both ends, but it would serve no good purpose.
Bottom line was that twi was nothing more than another version of Amway with bible verses thrown in...
Let's give the devil his due...Wierwille was a slick salesman. He not only had the personality to draw people in but he also set up a pretty snazzy recruitment organization...
First it started with pfal, then the roa, then go out wow and finally, you're ready to go into the corps...
EVERYTHING that twi did was about shaking people down for their money...and like an animal that eats it's own young, twi not only recruited people into their cult but also turned them into a free workforce. Exploitation was their forte and bait and switch was their tactic. Wierwille was a grifter who should have been selling cars instead of lying in God's name...and to think that he twisted the scriptures to equate his own "ministry" with the apostle Paul's was one of his crowning achievments. Today, when I look at the ministry of Paul (as depicted in the book of Acts), I am astounded at how totally different a true Christian ministry operates when compared to the pyramid scheme that Vic and his band of snake oil salesmen used to pile up the money.
...and the funny part is how Martindale dismantled the entire thing! He eliminated the pfal class, the roa, and the wow program...INCREDIBLE!!! Everything that Wierwille built, Martindale tore down...and today, there's nothing left but a fruity lesbian trying to protect what remains of their corporate profits made during their salad days...
...In hindsight, I think that I made a terrible mistake by going to that first roa instead of the Grateful Dead concert that I had been talked out of.
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I am sorry that you experienced such high pressure tactics.
I was fortunate in that I did not. I sought out PFAL, after once being witnessed to about it.
I have never been to a 'Billy Graham' rally. but from the way they are hyped, I would expect long before I got there that once inside I would be pressured for 2 hours to finally once and for all give my life to Jesus. I find it amazing that any 'un-beleiver' would allow himself to be dragged to see Billy Graham, unless they are already a beleiver, in which case, as a recruitment tool it seems kind of silly.
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WhiteDove
Rascal
I believe that in general most of the people really thought that what they were offering was going to be a blessing to the persons life. Unfortunately they were talked into a system that was made for selling cars and stereos not the Bible. I fought for years about this very thing, when the Corps would come to town and want a list of people or friends to contact I never gave them any. I just said all my friends have already been contacted. Which was somewhat believable seeing as how since we were only 45 min from Emporia and we had some group here almost every other week. I just forgot to tell them that they were contacted by me.
I can't stand being high pressure sold, like I'm too stupid to make my own choices and ask a question if I need to. Just yesterday at Best Buy I had this happen. I was trying to look at some things and I swear 10 people kept making me stop what I was doing and engage them in their offer to help. After about the tenth one I had enough and when he asked if he could help for a second time after I had said no thanks a few minutes earlier I said yeah you can you can leave me the hell alone so I can do what I came here to do. I explained that I did not really want to be rude but that I could not even shop because I was constantly having to stop and engage sales people in conversation. I explained that I knew how to find the things I was looking for and that if I had any questions I was smart enough to find someone in a blue vest on my own and ask. They got the point.....
I watched the rise of "think and grow rich sales" in the Way happen it was always sad to see for me. I remember telling a branch leader that it was degrading to what we had to offer and to God to sell it like a refrigerator or a car. That went over as you can imagine real big and earned me a spot on the B list for the rest of their time here. I to this day don't doubt that they really thought that they were helping people they were unfortunately sucked into the carnal sales machine of the day. People who were sold something that they did not really want did not last it produced classes but with no fruitful end result. It's true in life. How well do you take care of something that you really wanted and worked hard to get, as opposed to something you got with no effort generally the thing you worked and saved for gets better care.
A true Doveman story: There was a class promo thing happening and I wanted to take this girl that I had been dating a few times to it . I thought the class information would have benefited her life at that time. I think it was the when the Changed film was out and some Way Productions came down from Emporia and some Way Corps. I remember Skip Mesquite was there and shared about his life and they played some songs. Any way I knew what was going to happen and just wanted her to see the film and hear the music without the sales pitch after. So I devised this plan with 5 friends I knew the layout of the evening from the coordinators meeting and so I arrived at the last minute knowing that they would roll on time. That way we could slide in the back instead of being ushered up front (closer to the door) After the end I had arranged the five friends to run interference for me so I could escape out the door. I knew that they would be ready to pounce when the lights came up. I also knew I had the tactical advantage since they did not know who were grads or not so they grabbed anyone who looked like they were heading for the door. As they came our way my friends engaged them allowing me to escape into the night. I told the girl upfront, what was up and that they were good people and that they really believed in the what the class had to offer and it had changed their lives as well as mine. But I also knew that for that to happen you had to want that and I just wanted to offer her the chance to make her own decision. We went for coffee and talked for a long time but she eventually chose to not take PFAL. Of course after first weeks of hot sex, I dumped her unbelieving devil spirit possessed foot. Just Kidding!
I can't say I was happy at the time with her choice but we remain friends and that coffee pot has not run dry to this day.........
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whitedove
what a great story
thanks for shareing
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Lifted Up
Neither was I pressured, at least not individually, to take PFAL. Just as I was not pressured individually, when I went to a Billy Graham rally, to accept Christ (I already had, this was in 1987, but there was no individual pressure...of course how could there be with all the thousands there). One can deem the teachings in twig of how great The Word is, or the preaching by Billy Graham on how wonderful accepting Jesus Christ is, as pressure I suppose, but there was nothing said to me individually. In fact, no one even told me I should stop going to the (Methodist) church I was going to for a while as I went to twig.
I was never one for putting on the pressure either. The famous motivational techniques we were taught in residence at Emporia was not my bag.
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Bramble
A common recruitment tool was our own youth and cuteness. How many cute guys brought tons of girls to twig and vice versa? Many times when I was single we girls dressed up cute and went to clubs and bars to witness, reel in some guy who was looking for a girlfriend and try to get him to twig... I know I hurt more than one guys feelings with my 'go to twig, I'm not interested in you except as a babe in the Word' stuff. It wasn't honest, I had an agenda I didn't come right out with from the very beginning.
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rascal
Bramble, I was never cute enough to do that...I always looked very very young and tom boy.... but we did do other things that made me feel dirty.
I remember when I finally signed up to go into the corpes....I was SO excited about getting to go to my first app corps meeting....finally, I was going to get to be in one on those meetings for the spiritually sharp...I was going to begin my education ito become spiritually mature. When we arrived...to my intense dissapointment.....our lc simply divided us up into pairs and dropped us around the city for *witnessing*...
On the drive home (I had driven almost two hours to get to enjoy this privilege) I was so blue.... I remember feeling so bad....like I was a high pressure salesman for God....I felt like I was going to have to sell oranges like I did in high school and detested ....forever.
It was such a bleak feeling...I realised that from that point on I would always have to have an agenda....I would always have to have a person in each class...that was how are spiritual progress would be graded.....I wouldn`t be allowed to have any friends outside of twi.....I was ashamed....and then I was deeply ashamed of being ashamed....assuming of course that it was only my lack of spirituality that allowed me to feel this way. :(
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Belle
By the time I got involved there wasn't much youth and cuteness left.
"Class explanations" were just one big sales pitch and there was no pretending they were anything else. If there was someone you were "working with" but who hadn't signed up for the class yet, you were to bring them to a class explanation where the local WC would "close the deal".
It was very high pressure, but I consider using God's name and his protection on your life as high pressure and spiritual blackmail. M@tthew H@rmon was really good at it, but not really good at keeping people around.
When we had coffee houses they weren't for fun, they were for signing people up for the class. We all knew it. There wasn't any secular anything allowed at these things, which I suspect really turned people off. "What are all these God freaks doing? Is that all they talk about? Do they really think those skits are funny? OMG, that is NOT how I want to live!"
One girl I worked with came to fellowship with me (I brought a lot of people, but they usually only came once). She looked at all the bottled water the guys had all over the house and overflowing in the kitchen with the rest of their Y2K supplies - laughed - and said, "What are y'all? Some kind of cult?" LOL!!!
Of course we tried to explain to her about "preparing for the worst, but praying for the best" - she would hear none of it - kept saying we were some kind of doomsday cult..... I shoulda left with her.
I remember, too, witnessing door to door under M@tthew H@rmon's watch. Of course HE didn't go, HE had to stay at the contact point so that HE could meet us when we were done.
He wanted us to quit wasting time and do away with the niceties. Just knock on the door and when they answer, tell them that we run a home based biblical research ministry and ask if they're interested. If not, don't waste your time and move on to the next house. We were expected to get five contacts within an hour.
How well do you think that went over? Think any of us got our five contacts? What would you say if someone came to your door like that? I was with D@n Briener. Poor guy was the nicest man but terribly shy. He tried so hard and felt so bad when we didn't have any contacts. I felt bad for him because he felt so horrible about letting Matthew down.
The only fake and misleading things we did was to avoid telling people the name of our group and that we spoke in tongues until they came to their first meeting. Oh, we also acted like everything was all lightness and love in the group. That usually only lasted a few weeks, though. Then you were expected to listen to the STS tapes with one of us and sign up for the class. :blink:
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oldiesman
No question about it, I think they were there to sign up as many folks for PFAL as possible, and they knew it.
Just the same as the purpose of the WOW program, to sign up as many folks to PFAL as possible.
Was that manipulation? as in "unbeknownst to them"..?
How can it be, when you know exactly what you are there for?
We all knew why we were in the various programs we were in and what the purposes were.
Fast forward 30 years later... NOW, some think we were manipulated, because now, PFAL stinks, to some.
But back then, PFAL was the accuracy of God's Word and we wanted to share it with anybody and everybody who would listen, because we literally believed that God wanted everyone to hear it.
And so I think, it isn't the recruitment tools that are REALLY the issue, it is whether or not PFAL was promoting the rightly divided Word of God.
If it was, damn straight I'm going to try to sign up as many folks as possible!
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Samurai
Gods, we have so much in common. I wonder if we were apprentice corps the same year? My first apprentice corps meeting was like three hours away from where I lived and it started early in the morning so I left the night before, drove like two hours, stayed at a fellow apprentice corps house and we left from there while still dark to drive.
After all that, there was NO Breakfast, no nothing and we didn't grab anything to eat on the way thinking there would at least be coffee. Immediately we were paired up to witness all over the city we were in. Didn't get to eat until late afternoon. I knew I was not into starving to move the word. It was more than that, it told me that they didn't care for their people or plan for them and their benefit and if that didn't prove it then subsequent apprentice corps meetings where we cooked, cleaned and tilled the area leader's home and garden.
But back on topic, every meeting, coffee house, open meeting with visiting leadership were all used as recruitment tools for PFAL or to go WOW. Remember that African American group that did songs and traveled with Cla****** R****? They came around often promoting PFAL and the WOW program.
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jkboehme
Per rascal:
per Samurai:
Per Belle:
Per WhiteDove:
As was said, the TWI rank & file members were generally deceived into thinking that TWI’s various open functions, oozing with recruitment, were somehow something good & needful for the ‘new people.’
All of us are transiently vulnerable to cult recruitment. So many cults, using so many guises and ploys, are actively looking for members at any given moment that surely there may be a cult for you. Whatever your age, whatever your interests, whatever your life-style, succumbing to the lure of a cultic recruiter is as easy as getting a library card. There are as many ways to become involved with a cult as there are cults.
Each group develops its own recruitment methods – ranging from personal contacts to public explanations to musical events, in newspapers and magazines, and on television and radio. The original point of recruitment may vary, but one constant factor is that rampant deceptions are involved. These deceptions extend from concealment of exactly what the group is at “the point of pick up” to concealment of the ultimate purpose of membership. These deceptions lie at the heart of a lack of informed consent.
Cult recruitment occurs in 4 main stages: the first approach by a cult recruiter; the invitation to a wonderful place or special event or an important, alluring meeting; the first contact with the cult, where you are made to feel loved and wanted; and then the follow-up, using psychologically persuasive techniques to ensure your quick return or greater commitment.
By and large, cult members did not seek out the group they joined but were personally approached in some way during a period of temporary vulnerability. Cult members are trained in persuasive methods of approaching potential recruits. Because we are all social creatures, most of us are prone to listen to nice-looking people who approach us in a friendly or helping manner and speak enthusiastically about what they believe in. Cults aim their recruitment at vulnerable people because these individuals are less likely to see through the multiple layers of deceit. The recruiter must manipulate the first conversation, getting enough information about the person to shape the discussion and make the group seem like something the person would want to know or experience.
The above is of course the essence of TWI’s sales’ classes: the Witnessing & Undersheperding seminar once offered ‘on the field,’ & Christian Motivational Techniques, taught to the Way Corps. As noted above, cults aim their recruitment at vulnerable people because these individuals are less likely to see through the multiple layers of deceit. In TWI’s recruiting methodology, individuals suffering a transient vulnerability were said to have “needs.” A major focus of TWI recruitment is determining these so-called “needs” in order to manipulate the potential recruit. TWI’s cult recruiters are taught how to “close the deal” so as to get the potential new recruit into TWI’s entry level class, whether pfal or wap.
Such great honesty & integrity from a Biblical research, teaching, & fellowship ‘ministry!’
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rascal
It was all so embarassing belle, .....I remember speaking to people....inviting friends and people who trusted me....knowing that when they arrived to whatever I had invited them to, that they would be pressured into becoming involved.
Public x`s ...coffee houses...movie nights...coffee at the local omelete shop.... all were under the guise of speaking the word....the person that we were witnessing to thought that we just liked them....
The shame of knowing that I was being dishonest verses the shame of being viewed as unspiritual were always at war within me.....
I look back at my time in twi and it seems I sure spent a lot of time being embarrassed, scared, and pressured.....
Oldies man, I never got involved with twi to become a salesman for God...a hawker of classes....I was told that taking pfal would change my life....all that I recall was being put on track to become a better and better salesman/recruiter. It never really seemed to be about caring for the individual or helping them after they were finally considered *in the bag* once the green card was signed....
There was always some other class or some other program needed in order to achieve the desired spirituality ...prosperity ...etc.
One of the things required to grow spiritualy or to be recognized as worthey was bringing new folks ...and having someone to undershepherd.
You had to do these things or be consigned to the *spitual bump on the log* catagory.
Samurai, that totally sucks and does indeed sound like what I endured.
I remember a weekend advance..... the guys got to go with the lc fishing and the watch a ball game....what did the gals get to do???? We had one *class* after another on how to be a good wife. (I was single btw)
We learned how to put these men first....minister to them so that they could best service the body....how to be submissive to a man who was spiritually your inferior...and THEN we fixed the meal for the guys! Oh boy! What a blessing THAT weekend was.....the ONLY reason we gals were there were there was to fix food and tend to the guys of the limb....aaugh
More later, the kiddoes have art lessons this morning....lol
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oldiesman
There were so many kind and caring folks in twi (as stated by many folks on these threads including you) I can't imagine why you would think that folks wouldn't be concerned if you had a problem and needed help.
Take a Stand were folks who wanted to sign up folks for the class, for the glory of God, so folks who wanted it could come to the knowledge of the truth. That sounds caring to me. And I'm sure if someone they signed up wanted to share a problem, Take a Stand were there to help if they could.
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outandabout
Yeah, I remember that African American group - New Horizons? They came to Jackson, MS and sang on the limb leaders' roof top. What I remember is feeling so numb and blah when I was supposed to be so blessed.
They pretty much took other people's music and changed the lyrics.
That same day, we had to go all over the city with flyers inviting people to the music fest with New Horizons.
To this day, when I hear a certain song, it reminds me of them and what they changed it to. I still have their tape but I never wanted to listen to it because it reminded me of being in Mississippi with the L#llys - the two worst years of my entire life.
Oh yeah, and "Mo Tech." What a scam, having to sell PFAL like encyclopedias and vacuum cleaners.
How to lead a person step by step into signing up. So blantantly manipulative. I never was comfortable with it.
One time I while on Light Bearers I led somebody all the way through to sign up but couldn't bring myself to close the deal because I felt so phoney about it.
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rascal
I do not think that you are correct oldies.
I was relentlessly pressured to sign up for pfal, and from that point on the pressure never let up for me to sign other folks up.
I worked at a pet store that operated just like this.....we had a three page guide to follow where a person would be manuvered into a corner and end up buying a 500 dollar dog that they didn`t need or really want....and could have bought for 100 out of any newspaper.....
Every month there were new sales goals to be met or get fired....what you did last month was of no consequence...it was all about the numbers....kudos and pats on the back for success....dire consequences for failure.
TWI was like this from the very first day I started attending fellowships.... and the pressure to preform never let up.
Yeah folks would be concerned if you had a problem....only as long as you were preforming....if you weren`t, it was figured you were simply getting what you deserved.
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oldiesman
VP said "you can't stop people from kicking you, but you determine which direction you will go"
You determined.
You could have directed yourself out the door, at any time, if you preferred.
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Lifted Up
Oldies and Rascal, I am guessing that Oldies (and I) took PFAL some years before Rascal. It seems from descriptions of TWI life I have seen on GS than there was a general increase in pressure to do a lot of things with time. Perhaps that is the reason for your different descriptions. I was not pressured at all. But as 8th corps in residence, we got taught the motivational techniques class, which was essentially instructions to do it with pressure.
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danteh1
A lot of what people have said brings back a lot of memories. Some good, quite a lot of them bad.
I remember when i got in in the service, there was a lot of grea fellowship (cira. 1974 in Puerto Rico) not very much pressure and quite a few great people that really cared for people. If you had a need people back then really tried to help out and get answers for your needs.
At the end, (end of 1979 into 1980 when i got out) it was getting into a lot of the legalism that was (and is well known) to be going on then and now.
I was pressured into going WOW when i was living in Emporia in early 1979. The WC that got me signed up for WOW (more like forced) had all of the 'Pat' answers for why i "should" go WOW. I left a good job (Emporia Wholesale Coffee Co.) that was paying a little more than minimum wage at the time. If i was in my right mind i would have stayed working and not have wound up going wow. But in some respects going WOW woke me up and i got out after moving to the Quad City area of Iowa.
It's been a little over 25 years since i have gotten out. One thing that i have to say is that if any of the people that lived in the area that i lived in in Wyoming and helped witnessed to in Sheridan and Rawlins, Wyoming from after the Rock of 1979 to the rock of 1980 that are still in and secretly reading the forums, know that it's not all sweetness and nice at TWI anymore and the preassure and controll that they have over you is not for your best intrest. All TWI wants is the ABS money that is generated and the controll that thwy can userp over you.
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rascal
That is simply your perspective of your personal situation oldies.... and as such not at all applicable to me or the pressures that were relentlessly applied to me to preform in twi.
As it was presented to me by twi....there was only ONE direction to go IF I wanted to remain in the center of God`s will and therefor under his protection.
Any OTHER choice would be unto our spiritual and eventual physical death...yeah a real choice THERE buddy
TWI as a supposed Christian organization had no business kicking me or anyone else in any direction for that matter
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oldiesman
Lifted,
There was pressure in twi programs, no question about it; ... but folks were not obligated to participate in those programs.
Pressure, as I see it, challenges folks to become better and stronger.
My last twi program was WOW in 1979-80.
From August 1980 thru August 1991, around 11 years in twi, there was some light pressure, but certainly nothing I or the average person couldn't handle.
Twig fellowship once a week, plus every now and then attending a few classes, seminars, weekends in the word.
And only when I wanted to.
If I didn't want to attend something, I didn't.
I didn't allow ANYONE to control my life.
Month long motorcycle trip with VP & Mrs., in June of 1984, was one of the greatest weeks of my life.
But I think what "Take A Stand" did was to try to get folks to the point of making a decision, either for or against.
I see nothing wrong with that;...heck I did that myself when I went out WOW twice.
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rascal
Just because you didn`t see anything that was wrong....doesn`t negate the intense high pressure sales tactics that were utilized to persuade us to function for twi`s benefit.
From the instant I was introduced to twi, the pressure to preform in order to stay within the center of God`s will and thus outside of the devils ability to harm me.....was intense.
They utilized the fear of God`s lack of ability to protect us if we didn`t preform in a prescribed manner to motivate us to do the recruiting in spite of our misgivings and embarrasment.
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Lifted Up
You're both right. There was pressure. It wasn't absolute. It was felt differently by each of you. Surprise. We have two different people (or three if you add me) with different experiences.
I could elaborate further while I am hanging around, and I am no longer afraid of getting chewed from both ends, but it would serve no good purpose.
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rascal
Lifted, you would be suprised to hear that I agree with you...lol I also understand exactly where oldies comes from.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Bottom line was that twi was nothing more than another version of Amway with bible verses thrown in...
Let's give the devil his due...Wierwille was a slick salesman. He not only had the personality to draw people in but he also set up a pretty snazzy recruitment organization...
First it started with pfal, then the roa, then go out wow and finally, you're ready to go into the corps...
EVERYTHING that twi did was about shaking people down for their money...and like an animal that eats it's own young, twi not only recruited people into their cult but also turned them into a free workforce. Exploitation was their forte and bait and switch was their tactic. Wierwille was a grifter who should have been selling cars instead of lying in God's name...and to think that he twisted the scriptures to equate his own "ministry" with the apostle Paul's was one of his crowning achievments. Today, when I look at the ministry of Paul (as depicted in the book of Acts), I am astounded at how totally different a true Christian ministry operates when compared to the pyramid scheme that Vic and his band of snake oil salesmen used to pile up the money.
...and the funny part is how Martindale dismantled the entire thing! He eliminated the pfal class, the roa, and the wow program...INCREDIBLE!!! Everything that Wierwille built, Martindale tore down...and today, there's nothing left but a fruity lesbian trying to protect what remains of their corporate profits made during their salad days...
...In hindsight, I think that I made a terrible mistake by going to that first roa instead of the Grateful Dead concert that I had been talked out of.
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jkboehme
Go Groucho!
I couldn't have stated it better myself.
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