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how can you not believe..


CM
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Yeah what's the friggin point of it all?

one man gave his life for us all

to see what has not been seen

to know what has not been known

thru a glass darkly-sick of that vision

time to clean the window

as in adam all die

dead-the dead Christ as a seed

waiting to be opened up and flower

adam gave...jesus gave

what is the point?

yeah have another beer

i'll have a couple myself

the darn war is getting pretty tiresome

noman need to teach you

the lord himself will teach you

where is the courage to face the enemy?

is it not our own selves?

the seed waiting to spring forth as the new day dawns

where does the point end?

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Yeah, what is the point?

Some folks have found a life out here beyond superstition. It works pretty well for the ones I know.

Why is that a problem?

I have no issue with the air I breath, the life I live, but I'm a little uncertain about the "boundlessness" of the human heart. I've seen some definite boundaries there...

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Right now, I'd prefer another bourbon to another beer. Tomorrow, I might prefer another beer. On any given day, I prefer alcoholic "spirits" to "holy" spirits. I know (that I know that I know that I know) that alcoholic "spirits" are real and that their "manifestations" are reproducible and measurable. Can't say the same about other "spirits."

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Clay,

Turn your question around.. How can you believe? When all you have is 1) old dusty books some 2000 years old (and all copies vary from each other) and 2) paid religious hucksters telling you it's Da truth? Why not give Islam a spin? They probably outnumber Christians worldwide. They say Christians are infidels and what if? What IF they are right and you are wrong? You could be betting on the wrong prophet, Clay!! And that means you could be bursting the gates of Hell wide open when you die as an un-repentant Christian who despised Mohammed (praise be upon his eyebrows) and all he stood for.

And what if Zarathustra was right and you're wrong again? But if you consider all the religions and how they've come and gone (Christianity is a relative new comer) why DO you still believe? I have a theory.. I think there's a gene that makes religious folks vulnerable to believing superstitious nonsense. That's why I cut folks like you a break. You can't really help it that you believe god myths as children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. And since you can't help it that you believe in astronomically stupid concepts (the universe is only 300 years old, dead folks talk, re-animate, talk from burning bushes etc..) then I would be mean spirited to hold you accountable for what is beyond your intellectual control.

And as anyone around here can tell you, Clay.. I would NEVER pick on the mentally less fortunate or try to take advantage of them. But would you be interested in buying a genuine certified piece of wood from the Holy cross that Jesus bore on the way to Calvary? I have eye witness testimony that even LOOKING at it has cured people of awful diseases. And it could be yours for less than 6 figures ^_^ .

sudo (who believes its immoral to allow a fool to keep his money)
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um...lol...omg...ok

i dont think you guys are even talking about the same thing here

no, i know yer not

or maybe you know, but simply dont care

or are too lazy or helpless to react any other way

probably lack the education, information, morals...

i dunno

but nonetheless, you dont seem to realize it

so i feel somewhat obligated to say something

and am embarrassed for ya

as a friendly fellow human being

btw - i figure this is the tongue some of you enjoy using

why not speak it and see if it gets thru, no?

cant blame me for wanting to play the same game, can ya?

gonna cry fowl?

That's why I cut folks like you a break. You can't really help it that you believe god myths as children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. And since you can't help it that you believe in astronomically stupid concepts (the universe is only 300 years old, dead folks talk, re-animate, talk from burning bushes etc..) then I would be mean spirited to hold you accountable for what is beyond your intellectual control.

And as anyone around here can tell you, Clay.. I would NEVER pick on the mentally less fortunate or try to take advantage of them. But would you be interested in buying a genuine certified piece of wood from the Holy cross that Jesus bore on the way to Calvary? I have eye witness testimony that even LOOKING at it has cured people of awful diseases. And it could be yours for less than 6 figures

that sounds like some pretty lame lies to me, sudo

your eery slick fake concern

passive aggressive projecting sickness

must be "folks like you"

or sumthing, i guess

and somewhat ironic...how you imply clay is mentally less fortunate than you

if ya know what i mean

(wait, ummm...maybe you dont)

ok...heerz a request

why not try stepping outside of your self here, too

cut Clay some slack on a line of thought he is obviously interested in expressing and exploring

or at least own up to why yer being a jerk about it

(without blaming others for what you allow yourself to do)

(and please dont tell me you dont think yer being a jerk to the guy..cmon)

i mean, its like yer stuck in the same ole poopy joke

and damn rootin tootin flag waving proud of it

(and yer getting really really good at it...practice, i guess)

donthca think it makes it tougher for folks to gather around a quiet table and chew the spiritual cud if you pretty much know the usual punks are gonna come spit in your food, and publicly sneer and mock you?speak out of the side of their mouth

i mean, how much you want to bet you dont feel good right now, reading this?

maybe even yer highly selective heart is racing more than you wish it would right now

whether its from anger. sadness. hysterical laughter, doesnt matter...

just feel it, would ya?

for such an enlightened one in the biz of helping people stoopider than you

i would hope you would stick to the things yer good at

and recognize when you simply suck at something

but keep doing it

at the expense of others

at least, get a cream or something for it

something

sheesh

shazbat

dang

silly goose

whatever

btw - i'm not merely defending my friend clay

(heez one hugely forgiving dude, imo)

nor did he enlist me in any way

i'm more interested in what more could happen with this wee corner of this wee forum

if we could all agree that simple conversational manners are still worth something in this world

...it is 2005, after all...

not everyone starts a thread in order to pick a fight

most of you are much older than me

i almost feel embarrassed to remind you big boys of things like common decency

and owning up to your own crap

(oh hell yeah...i think it was worth writing)

:wave:

Edited by sirguessalot
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If there is such a thing as a "God-Gene", I don't see where it would differ all that much in it's purpose

from a hypothetical "Science-Gene".

Science seeks to explain or understand the "unexplainable" - so do beliefs oft associated with religion, mythology and the supernatural.

Scientists tend to have their heads up their asses just as much as theologians. Both can and have demonstrated an incredible lack of wisdom when it comes to applying their knowledge for the betterment of mankind. The ethics of treating ones fellow man don't always come automatically. Science can heal - and it can destroy - just as religion can either serve to heal or destroy.

Both (sound) science and religion have sought to comprehend the ultimate question of why we are here, and where we are going; to extend our minds beyond the confines of our worldly fishbowl. And both offer a number of fascinating possibilities.

Science and religion amount to nothing more than the different hats our human spirits wear.

But in the end we still occupy the same place - isolated on a globe suspended in the infinite vastness of dark space, wondering about everything transpiring beyond our limited perspectives.

Danny

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Turn your question around.. How can you believe? When all you have is 1) old dusty books some 2000 years old (and all copies vary from each other) and 2) paid religious hucksters telling you it's Da truth?

....this could be the problem....when you hold that big mirror up, who and what are you really seeing?

Merry Christmas!!

Edited by socks
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Hey guys!

A merry Christmas to all of you! I plead guilty to some of what you say, Sirguesslot. I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. And maybe I DO condescend a bit... like an adult talks to a child who still believes in Santa Claus. He KNOWS that he knows something the child doesn't know... that there is no Santa Claus but he pretends to believe to make the fellowship between them sweet.

I shouldn't have even posted, really. You guys like to believe and that's just fine with me. I'm about to head out to a big 'ole Christmas eve celebration at my parents' house and to a person... every one of them are believers as you all are. We'll pray and I'll bow my head. My dad (who's almost 80 years old) will read the Christmas story from Luke to all the grandkids who then will rip open their presents... and spend the rest of the afternoon watching The Santa Clause II on DVD or playing Nintendo. The adults will sit around eating fattening foods, drinking coffee (or wine) and talking politics. We're all Republicans so we get along.

In short.. I LOVE Christmas and wish you all the very best. You see.. I hold no animosity towards those who believe. My Christmas wishes are for everyone to have a merry Christmas and a prosperous and happy new year!~

sudo
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Irisheyes,

Jeezus Gawd, are we having a contest to see who can be the MOST condescending?

Get a grip already, not everyone still subscribes to the idea of there being an invisible friend, floating around in space, looking benevolently down upon us (uh, never actually DOING anything, not so as you'd notice anyway, just looking - oh, and expecting unquestioning obeisance).

In reality though, CM did start it. His opening salvo in this thread actually says (at least the way I read it) "Hey boneheads, how can you be so goddammed stupid to not believe the same stuff I do?(!)"

Yes, he phrased it a little more politely, but that's the essence of it, no?

But, being as it is the holiday season, and one that some people actually enjoy, I guess I'll be nice and not say what I really think.

Enjoy it while you can, tomorrow may be real B.S., you never know. And there just might NOT be some sort of ethereal, eternal reward for your lifetime of dedication and worship of the unknowable. Like it or not THAT is at least a possibility...

Cheers...

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