The title, "Power For Abundant Living," disguised its biblical content to appeal to the human potential movement (or so it might appear), a bible class masquerading as a positive thinking class.
But what was it really? A positive thinking class, masqerading as a bible class, masquerading as a positive thinking class. As many have amply demonstrated, PFAL sent Jesus to the back of the bus. Didn't it? It sure as hell did. VPW was front and center, and the class was our induction to Way World, VP World.
It was positively conditioning, masquerading as positive "believing," a.k.a., positive thinking. Scripture was the vehicle, not the payload.
If slapping John 10:10 at the bottom makes it all real for you, you're easily impressed. Once upon a time, we all were.
Well --- I wll agree that I am easily impressed.
Especially by those folks more musically inclined, than I am.
But that is a different story. :)
I will agree with you about your definition about *the class*.
It was a facade, mockery, etc,. etc., -- but I have something to say here ~~~
My ex was an artist, and did wonderful stuff with fabric. Her work is well known up here.
She could crochet, knit, tat lace, embroider, and weave her own fabric on one of three looms she had set up here at the house.
Now -- with that being said ~~~ She gave me an appretiation for art that I never held before. After all --- I was just a dumb country bumpkin that could pick, but could never produce something lasting,
like (say ~~~ one of her weavings).
So yes -- If I see a poster that has (IMO) *Good Artwork*, and reminds me of the *old days*, I wouldn't hesitate to get it.
Just like I would not hesitate to buy one of her wall-hanging weavings.
She and I are history.
Twi and I are history.
But the fact remains --- There are parts of my history that are worth remembering.
I majorly doubt if I ever post here again. What bitter, bitter people! With a few notable exceptions, WaWeather, Jonny Lingo, Dmiller, 2Life and Galen, I have been defecated upon with enthusiasm just for offering something that someone might, and a few actually did, want.
I was associated with TWI for 23 years of my life from age 28 to age 52. I do not consider every moment of those years to be a total waste of time. If they were, if each and every without exception thought, word and action was vile and loathsome, if everything I learned was a lie, if in fact there is no God, no Jesus, no truth, then every moment of those years was not worth living. My life is worth nothing.
But hey, Satori, et al, guess what? The same goes for you. If you spent one millimicron of a nanosecond of your life in a twig fellowship, in a PFAL class or anything else, by your own accusations and meaness to others, you are saying that your life is worthless and useless, too, ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU PERCEIVE/ACCUSE IN OTHERS.
I have moved on, and in fact, forward in my life. I don't need to spend endless hours dissecting TWI, cursing and villlifying every person who hurt and maimed me, all of the lies and pain are in the past. There are those of us who would like to keep the good and discard the bad, walk away from it, but respect the good we perceived there. I am not ashamed that I was associated with TWI. I don't believe everything they taught, and I think it was an imperfect organization. But then most people are. I'm NOT an apologist.
Please try to remember that innies come here and y'all are supposed to be helping them. I've actually seen new posters dismayed to find what smart mouthed know-it-alls spew their bile here, and never post again.
Watered G, could it be that you are over reacting just a smidge?
There seems to be a lot more anger going on here on your part than is warrented because two posters simply made some light hearted comments...one of which has since apologised when you misunderstood their intent.
You appear to be uncharicteristically touchy......
You are the one that seems to have been in attack mode....and have since drawn a little fire....
It would be a shame to lose your input here....you have valuable insight to contribute....but I suppose if you see what goes on here as nothing more than *a ceaseless attempt to villify every person who ever hurt and maimed us*...I guess that you are missing the greater good of what is/has actually being/been accomplished anyway..
I think that's part of the risk of posting on a public message board. People who disagree with you will say so, and posts that are intended to be taken seriously will be mocked.
I don't want a PFAL poster, but I once hunted for a copy of ROA tapes from an ROA I detested, just to have it. In fact, I think I'll give some of it a listen this morning! :)
Rascal I don't think Satori was the least bit lighthearted. I really don't care what other people think of PFAL. I feel like just because I did know there are those who would like to have it and offered it, I am being attacked as this stupid piece of crap moron who doesn't "get" it.
Maybe I don't "get" it. I'm just not as educated about how to really spend the rest of my life hating, being hardhearted and unforgiving.
I wonder how many of the leadership of TWI who have read what posters have written about them have been shocked, and said to themselves: "I was wrong! I must change and reform! How awful that I hurt that poor innocent soul."
I would imagine they just say, (If they say anything at all) "Humm! Wonder who that possessed idiot was? Sure am glad I ran them out of the gates of Zion."
This is the year I am asking God to teach me about forgiveness. I think it's obvious I have a long way to go. But it's a worthwhile journey.
At any rate, I'm not going to bother the elite here by posting anymore.
But the fact remains --- There are parts of my history that are worth remembering.
And I think people , as we age, might like to have a reminder of our personal history and those with an investment in TWI
perhaps wish to re-experience the good feelings that might have had at one time. That they do this by perusing a class syllabus or reading an old way magazine, or listening to a tape is hardly a surprise to me nor should it be to anyone else. Its like looking at a photo album or picking up a picture of someone you used to date years ago. The "I wonder what they are doing now" question
comes to mind.
I always like to point out that a clear majority of the time when people take that trip down Way memory lane they are ususally thinking about *people* and how they had a good time or shared a key experience. So in fact its those people who should get the credit for improving your life not TWI. As an example. I once went to get someone out of jail and as I was waiting I met some people who turned out to be very cool folks. We joked and laughed about the circumstances and had a pretty good conversation about many topics. Well eventually our respective friends were released so we left. I kept in contact with those people and was glad to have met them. But you know what ? I don't sit there and think "Wow. Hanging out at the jail house is really cool. Look it how it improved my social circle" . No. I recognize the people for being cool and can separate that from the larger experience. Now. For some reason lots of former Way folks I meet can't make such a distinction. If they met a great person while they were in TWI they tend to give TWI credit for it and I don't understand that thinking. I met lots of great people while in TWI and they would be good folks whether or not they had ever been in TWI.
That was my point wg, you had ONE poster out of several that you found unpleasant and you have flown off the handle and painted the whole rest of greasespot with your anger generated by one poster....and seem to in the process...... attacked most of the rest of the folks here.
This sight isn`t about what the occasional lurking leader reads and thinks of us.....or necessarily pretending to act nice so as to not frighten away the innies.......
In these forums we are here to talk ABOUT twi and it`s leadership.....You are absolutely free to talk about your good experiences....I am absolutely free to talk about the abuse suffered....Some of what occurred simply cannot be discussed in upbeat happy non negative terms....lol but never the less are important discussions to those of us wishing to participate.
These forums are about FINALLY being able to discuss our side of the story period....and there is a lot of good that comes of this.
You are a valued participant here Watered G, You bring something individual and unique with you when you participate.... I just wish that you would not discount the possibility that though might you find some one elses pov personally objectionable.........that they still have insight and input that is of benefit.
Ya know, I was not actually posting this so people could throw eggs at me.
Let's look at the eggs thrown (Galen was an exception so I won't list his eggs):
i'll pass but galen might be interested ;)
Perfect timing! I was just thinking how great it would be to put a class together, for old time's sake.
and if u have the 'PIFFLE' CD's of the class from the people in Belize, the poster on the wall at the front of the class would be just the cherry.
Now, maybe I am just a little too thick skinned, but I didn't see any eggs thrown at her. I saw 2 people make some snide comments about the piffle class, but there were no personal attacks at all...no eggs thrown in her direction...
Oh, I know, you all must have been PMing the personal attacks toward her. I got it!
More comments:
I majorly doubt if I ever post here again. What bitter, bitter people! ...
...I have moved on, and in fact, forward in my life. I don't need to spend endless hours dissecting TWI, cursing and villlifying every person who hurt and maimed me, all of the lies and pain are in the past.
I really don't care what other people think of PFAL. I feel like just because I did know there are those who would like to have it and offered it, I am being attacked as this stupid piece of crap moron who doesn't "get" it.
Maybe I don't "get" it. I'm just not as educated about how to really spend the rest of my life hating, being hardhearted and unforgiving.
This is the year I am asking God to teach me about forgiveness. I think it's obvious I have a long way to go. But it's a worthwhile journey.
At any rate, I'm not going to bother the elite here by posting anymore.
Well, all I can say is that if she can't take that little tiny amount of joking, she'd better never try posting on this site as a Catholic... She might end up homicidal!!!
I happen to know Watered Garden very well. She has no malice and doesnt deserve the cynical comments made at her expense.
It also shows why others ...my husband who is Daddyhoundog included, do not post here any more.
Being met with such venom and a singular profile of what is acceptable and not a TARGET is getting more difficult as the years go by.
My hausband is a brilliant man whio ia also dyslexic. People chopped him up just becasue they could not accept imperfect spelling.
Here WG is only trying to be courteous and is met with nothing but cynisicm.
Saying that wonderful woman might end up homicidal just shows how kind and forbearing you really are Mark.
Others here are just as bad....its also why I slowed down posting. I find the densityu of arragance far to laboreous to deal with.
I had time over my christmas break...and seemed to get intersdted again, but this has just confirmed what I thought earlier.
I don't need to waste my time with all these annoymous critics.
I believe this is a large part of why when looking at archives we see so many posters who no longer bother casting their pearls before all the swiny comments.
For people who preach how bad the way is to turn around and be just as demeaning and critical --- seems to me lessons learned were lessons lost
Saying that wonderful woman might end up homicidal just shows how kind and forbearing you really are Mark.
No, it doesn't. And i never said she might end up homicidal. I suggest you read what I posted again. Just to make it easy, I'll paste it in here:
Well, all I can say is that if she can't take that little tiny amount of joking, she'd better never try posting on this site as a Catholic... She might end up homicidal!!!
You will kindly notice the bolded text, above. You might then choose to go through and review the venom that has been spewed in the direction of the few of us who dare reveal publically that we are Catholics. Then you might understand the comment.
Another thing: You know, if it was Mike or Oldies or What the Hey posting something pro-TWI or even reminiscent of the days in TWI (though doubtful that they'd ever sell a PFAL poster), they would be gang-raped on this site (as they have been multiple times). And nobody, but nobody would be defending them (at least I don't recall anybody ever saying "C'mon, lay off poor old Oldies."). So, I guess because it is Saint Watered Garden, everybody needs to be sensitive, but if it were Oldies, it's open season, right? Give me a break.
Keep in mind one thing: this is an ex-Way site. Not a TWI site. Not a reminiscent of the good old days site. From what I gather, the site management allows all of these views and encourages people to speak their minds, as long as they don't make personal attacks against other posters and maintain the anonymity of non-posters (with the exception of the current or past board of trustees/ directors of TWI). Nobody has, to my knowledge, violated those rules...
I can only look at this from both sides as I have no interest in either the poster or the fight - but it is sad....
THIS IS A POSTER! not an idol, not a tape, not a VPW look-alike doll complete with anatomical embellishments. If you don't want it - why post?
Watered Garden IS A PERSON!!! not some lily pad-filled mudhole in France. I seriously doubt that anyone here would be as rude in person as you can be with the safety of anonymity here in cyberspace.
On the other hand - my hubby always repeats what he heard in the military - "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it." WG if you spent anytime reading the posts on this site you really could have gathered that you would draw at least some sarcasm. I didn't see anyone treat YOU as some filthy piece of excrement - they just jabbed away the TWI poster and probably in turn at anyone who seriously would want that poster - like dmiller.
And Mark - you're right, had it been Mike or oldies or anyone else they really would have been ravaged.
I will repeat and repeat that the disadvantage of a public forum board is that you can't look someone in the eye and see their face and hear their voice and read their body language. If that were possible we might all be a bit kindler and gentler in how and what we write - on both sides of the coin...
I really am not concerned with anyones choice of religion.
I really have no problem with Oldies -- I maintain the agreeing to disagree posture.
I have never bothered to respond when Mike was involved.
I just plainly think she was jumped harder than others who have announced they are putting something on ebay eventually.
You just don't understand...this isn't about you...I certainly do not seek your approval, believe me. No disrespect intended there, but your approval or disapproval of me, Oldies, dmiller, Mike, Jonny, Watered Garden, Excathedra, Galen, or anybody else is not really terribly relevent.
I believe this is a large part of why when looking at archives we see so many posters who no longer bother casting their pearls before all the swiny comments.
DH
Maybe I don't "get" it. I'm just not as educated about how to really spend the rest of my life hating, being hardhearted and unforgiving.
WG
Then again it would appear that perhaps you do get it!
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dmiller
Well --- I wll agree that I am easily impressed.
Especially by those folks more musically inclined, than I am.
But that is a different story. :)
I will agree with you about your definition about *the class*.
It was a facade, mockery, etc,. etc., -- but I have something to say here ~~~
My ex was an artist, and did wonderful stuff with fabric. Her work is well known up here.
She could crochet, knit, tat lace, embroider, and weave her own fabric on one of three looms she had set up here at the house.
Now -- with that being said ~~~ She gave me an appretiation for art that I never held before. After all --- I was just a dumb country bumpkin that could pick, but could never produce something lasting,
like (say ~~~ one of her weavings).
So yes -- If I see a poster that has (IMO) *Good Artwork*, and reminds me of the *old days*, I wouldn't hesitate to get it.
Just like I would not hesitate to buy one of her wall-hanging weavings.
She and I are history.
Twi and I are history.
But the fact remains --- There are parts of my history that are worth remembering.
Nothing more, nothing less. :)
just my IMO
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justloafing
PFAL Poster, No Thanks. That would make me puke up my jerk chicken and red beans and rice I had for dinner last night.
John 10:9&10 okay but nothing from twi.
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GrouchoMarxJr
What am I bid for the old violin as he held it up with the bow
I'll give you a buck if you throw in the eye, he said with a voice deep and low
one dollar once, one dollar twice, going and almost gone...
why so cheap said the thoughtless crowd
they cried, we just don't understand
quick came the reply, from the back of the room
it was the touch of a basta*ds hand
sorry...
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Watered Garden
I majorly doubt if I ever post here again. What bitter, bitter people! With a few notable exceptions, WaWeather, Jonny Lingo, Dmiller, 2Life and Galen, I have been defecated upon with enthusiasm just for offering something that someone might, and a few actually did, want.
I was associated with TWI for 23 years of my life from age 28 to age 52. I do not consider every moment of those years to be a total waste of time. If they were, if each and every without exception thought, word and action was vile and loathsome, if everything I learned was a lie, if in fact there is no God, no Jesus, no truth, then every moment of those years was not worth living. My life is worth nothing.
But hey, Satori, et al, guess what? The same goes for you. If you spent one millimicron of a nanosecond of your life in a twig fellowship, in a PFAL class or anything else, by your own accusations and meaness to others, you are saying that your life is worthless and useless, too, ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU PERCEIVE/ACCUSE IN OTHERS.
I have moved on, and in fact, forward in my life. I don't need to spend endless hours dissecting TWI, cursing and villlifying every person who hurt and maimed me, all of the lies and pain are in the past. There are those of us who would like to keep the good and discard the bad, walk away from it, but respect the good we perceived there. I am not ashamed that I was associated with TWI. I don't believe everything they taught, and I think it was an imperfect organization. But then most people are. I'm NOT an apologist.
Please try to remember that innies come here and y'all are supposed to be helping them. I've actually seen new posters dismayed to find what smart mouthed know-it-alls spew their bile here, and never post again.
WG
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rascal
Watered G, could it be that you are over reacting just a smidge?
There seems to be a lot more anger going on here on your part than is warrented because two posters simply made some light hearted comments...one of which has since apologised when you misunderstood their intent.
You appear to be uncharicteristically touchy......
You are the one that seems to have been in attack mode....and have since drawn a little fire....
It would be a shame to lose your input here....you have valuable insight to contribute....but I suppose if you see what goes on here as nothing more than *a ceaseless attempt to villify every person who ever hurt and maimed us*...I guess that you are missing the greater good of what is/has actually being/been accomplished anyway..
For that I am sorry.
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Raf
I think that's part of the risk of posting on a public message board. People who disagree with you will say so, and posts that are intended to be taken seriously will be mocked.
I don't want a PFAL poster, but I once hunted for a copy of ROA tapes from an ROA I detested, just to have it. In fact, I think I'll give some of it a listen this morning! :)
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Watered Garden
Rascal I don't think Satori was the least bit lighthearted. I really don't care what other people think of PFAL. I feel like just because I did know there are those who would like to have it and offered it, I am being attacked as this stupid piece of crap moron who doesn't "get" it.
Maybe I don't "get" it. I'm just not as educated about how to really spend the rest of my life hating, being hardhearted and unforgiving.
I wonder how many of the leadership of TWI who have read what posters have written about them have been shocked, and said to themselves: "I was wrong! I must change and reform! How awful that I hurt that poor innocent soul."
I would imagine they just say, (If they say anything at all) "Humm! Wonder who that possessed idiot was? Sure am glad I ran them out of the gates of Zion."
This is the year I am asking God to teach me about forgiveness. I think it's obvious I have a long way to go. But it's a worthwhile journey.
At any rate, I'm not going to bother the elite here by posting anymore.
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diazbro
And I think people , as we age, might like to have a reminder of our personal history and those with an investment in TWI
perhaps wish to re-experience the good feelings that might have had at one time. That they do this by perusing a class syllabus or reading an old way magazine, or listening to a tape is hardly a surprise to me nor should it be to anyone else. Its like looking at a photo album or picking up a picture of someone you used to date years ago. The "I wonder what they are doing now" question
comes to mind.
I always like to point out that a clear majority of the time when people take that trip down Way memory lane they are ususally thinking about *people* and how they had a good time or shared a key experience. So in fact its those people who should get the credit for improving your life not TWI. As an example. I once went to get someone out of jail and as I was waiting I met some people who turned out to be very cool folks. We joked and laughed about the circumstances and had a pretty good conversation about many topics. Well eventually our respective friends were released so we left. I kept in contact with those people and was glad to have met them. But you know what ? I don't sit there and think "Wow. Hanging out at the jail house is really cool. Look it how it improved my social circle" . No. I recognize the people for being cool and can separate that from the larger experience. Now. For some reason lots of former Way folks I meet can't make such a distinction. If they met a great person while they were in TWI they tend to give TWI credit for it and I don't understand that thinking. I met lots of great people while in TWI and they would be good folks whether or not they had ever been in TWI.
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oldiesman
WG, was wondering if you sold it to Galen or putting it on ebay?
I would like a VPW paperweight...
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GarthP2000
..... you mean that bronze idol that they were trying to hock--- errr sell about 10 years ago?
:D
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rascal
That was my point wg, you had ONE poster out of several that you found unpleasant and you have flown off the handle and painted the whole rest of greasespot with your anger generated by one poster....and seem to in the process...... attacked most of the rest of the folks here.
This sight isn`t about what the occasional lurking leader reads and thinks of us.....or necessarily pretending to act nice so as to not frighten away the innies.......
In these forums we are here to talk ABOUT twi and it`s leadership.....You are absolutely free to talk about your good experiences....I am absolutely free to talk about the abuse suffered....Some of what occurred simply cannot be discussed in upbeat happy non negative terms....lol but never the less are important discussions to those of us wishing to participate.
These forums are about FINALLY being able to discuss our side of the story period....and there is a lot of good that comes of this.
You are a valued participant here Watered G, You bring something individual and unique with you when you participate.... I just wish that you would not discount the possibility that though might you find some one elses pov personally objectionable.........that they still have insight and input that is of benefit.
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oldiesman
But I don't think it's an idol.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
wg please reconsider about going away! i have always enjoyed your opinions and thoughts
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markomalley
Sort of funny.
Watered Garden said,
Let's look at the eggs thrown (Galen was an exception so I won't list his eggs):
Now, maybe I am just a little too thick skinned, but I didn't see any eggs thrown at her. I saw 2 people make some snide comments about the piffle class, but there were no personal attacks at all...no eggs thrown in her direction...
Oh, I know, you all must have been PMing the personal attacks toward her. I got it!
More comments:
Well, all I can say is that if she can't take that little tiny amount of joking, she'd better never try posting on this site as a Catholic... She might end up homicidal!!!
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DaddyHoundog
Well, maybe she wont.
I happen to know Watered Garden very well. She has no malice and doesnt deserve the cynical comments made at her expense.
It also shows why others ...my husband who is Daddyhoundog included, do not post here any more.
Being met with such venom and a singular profile of what is acceptable and not a TARGET is getting more difficult as the years go by.
My hausband is a brilliant man whio ia also dyslexic. People chopped him up just becasue they could not accept imperfect spelling.
Here WG is only trying to be courteous and is met with nothing but cynisicm.
Saying that wonderful woman might end up homicidal just shows how kind and forbearing you really are Mark.
Others here are just as bad....its also why I slowed down posting. I find the densityu of arragance far to laboreous to deal with.
I had time over my christmas break...and seemed to get intersdted again, but this has just confirmed what I thought earlier.
I don't need to waste my time with all these annoymous critics.
I believe this is a large part of why when looking at archives we see so many posters who no longer bother casting their pearls before all the swiny comments.
For people who preach how bad the way is to turn around and be just as demeaning and critical --- seems to me lessons learned were lessons lost
LIANne Pierce aka Washingtonweather
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markomalley
No, it doesn't. And i never said she might end up homicidal. I suggest you read what I posted again. Just to make it easy, I'll paste it in here:
Well, all I can say is that if she can't take that little tiny amount of joking, she'd better never try posting on this site as a Catholic... She might end up homicidal!!!
You will kindly notice the bolded text, above. You might then choose to go through and review the venom that has been spewed in the direction of the few of us who dare reveal publically that we are Catholics. Then you might understand the comment.
Another thing: You know, if it was Mike or Oldies or What the Hey posting something pro-TWI or even reminiscent of the days in TWI (though doubtful that they'd ever sell a PFAL poster), they would be gang-raped on this site (as they have been multiple times). And nobody, but nobody would be defending them (at least I don't recall anybody ever saying "C'mon, lay off poor old Oldies."). So, I guess because it is Saint Watered Garden, everybody needs to be sensitive, but if it were Oldies, it's open season, right? Give me a break.
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DaddyHoundog
I really am not concerned with anyones choice of religion.
I really have no problem with Oldies -- I maintain the agreeing to disagree posture.
I have never bothered to respond when Mike was involved.
I just plainly think she was jumped harder than others who have announced they are putting something on ebay eventually.
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markomalley
Keep in mind one thing: this is an ex-Way site. Not a TWI site. Not a reminiscent of the good old days site. From what I gather, the site management allows all of these views and encourages people to speak their minds, as long as they don't make personal attacks against other posters and maintain the anonymity of non-posters (with the exception of the current or past board of trustees/ directors of TWI). Nobody has, to my knowledge, violated those rules...
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doojable
I can only look at this from both sides as I have no interest in either the poster or the fight - but it is sad....
THIS IS A POSTER! not an idol, not a tape, not a VPW look-alike doll complete with anatomical embellishments. If you don't want it - why post?
Watered Garden IS A PERSON!!! not some lily pad-filled mudhole in France. I seriously doubt that anyone here would be as rude in person as you can be with the safety of anonymity here in cyberspace.
On the other hand - my hubby always repeats what he heard in the military - "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it." WG if you spent anytime reading the posts on this site you really could have gathered that you would draw at least some sarcasm. I didn't see anyone treat YOU as some filthy piece of excrement - they just jabbed away the TWI poster and probably in turn at anyone who seriously would want that poster - like dmiller.
And Mark - you're right, had it been Mike or oldies or anyone else they really would have been ravaged.
I will repeat and repeat that the disadvantage of a public forum board is that you can't look someone in the eye and see their face and hear their voice and read their body language. If that were possible we might all be a bit kindler and gentler in how and what we write - on both sides of the coin...
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markomalley
You just don't understand...this isn't about you...I certainly do not seek your approval, believe me. No disrespect intended there, but your approval or disapproval of me, Oldies, dmiller, Mike, Jonny, Watered Garden, Excathedra, Galen, or anybody else is not really terribly relevent.
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DaddyHoundog
Thank you doojable - that is it-- being kinder and gentler.
That said it reflects those choices of nonkindness and nongentleness too.
I get the military thing, but isnt it ironic....the very thing we found repulsive in TWI is reflected in GSC.
Maybe becasue its human nature at times to be so repugnant...and it is human nature to deflect that repugnance.
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WhiteDove
Then again it would appear that perhaps you do get it!
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WhiteDove
SOME OTHER EBAY SALES -To compare with.......
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ic=8835&hl=ebay
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=6525&hl=
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=6574&hl=
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=6450&hl=
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=6785&hl=
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DaddyHoundog
very interesting Whitedove, thanks for taking the time to look all that up.
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