I think he would hate people making a god out of him because he taught against that so often. It's just a pity that so many people magnify the negatives in his life above the Word that he taught.
Hi Sudossuda :)
Not picking on you but a lot of people say what you have said what I put in quotes.
My take on that and what he would say and what he should have said.
vp says or said: "I am not a God or the God. He (God) just taught me the Word so I could teach it to others."
What vp ment to say: "I am Lord over all of you and you will obey what I teach you, othewise I will ruin your lives. Give me your money so I can become rich. So learn "My" Word, go out and teach it to others so they will give me money. Ohhh and yes when my teaching is over, meet me at the motor coach so I can rape you and bless your life."
Hi Sudosuda ! Take heart, not everybody here hates VP's guts. SOME of us like you remain thankful for VP's ministry helping to get us 'on the right track' (for ourselves) and are STILL enjoying the blessings and comfort of what was taught.
A perusal of the 'Everything is broken' thread is a timely reminder for me to stay on course on the journey God has called me and my family to.
Thanks for all the welcomes to this thread. It's good to know we can disagree, but still share ideas and learn from each other.
In reading through threads, it seems one of the major points on controversy on VPW's teaching was that he plagiarized from others and did not credit them in his teachings and/or written works. Plagiarism is unethical and if he is guilty (and seems he may be from the research many here at GSC have done) it is a flaw in his character. Call me naive or whatever, but I was always under the impression that he had learned much from the research of others and taught those portions he believed to be true. I was more interested in the content of teachings than the sources from which they were gleaned. In written works, I agree sources should have been noted. But I don't really care who the source of right doctrine is, as long as I have the opportunity to hear it and judge for myself whether to accept it or not. Maybe I was lucky, but I never felt pressured to accept or believe something just because he or any other person taught it. I always felt free to question, and felt encouraged to do so. How many times were we told not just to accept something at face value, but to research it ourselves, see if it fit with the rest of the Word, and decide for ourselves. That was the only way to "make it your own" and have it become a part of your belief system.
From some of the posts I've read, it would seem that many did not feel free to question, and that is a tragedy. I am thankful they escaped such an oppressive environment. Had I ever felt that my twi experience was dominated by "If VPW/Leadership said it, that settles it" versus "God said it, that settles it" I would have left immediately. In fact, that's when I did leave when the mark and avoid teachings came out. They did not ring true to me from the beginning, and I realized that the twi I had loved and enjoyed no longer existed and I wanted no part of the shell that was left in it's place. When that weekend seminar ended, so did my affiliation with twi as an organization. I still kept it touch (and still do) with friends I made during my twi tenure, and highly treasure many of those friendships. I guess I received the mark and avoid stamp, also, as some people chose not to associate with me after that. I counted it their loss, not mine, and kept on living my life.
I will always be immensely thankful for the time I spent with twi and for the foundation it laid enabling me to develop a personal, intimate relationship with God. And I credit Dr. Wierwille's teachings for the majority of this, whether it was his "original" knowledge, or that he gleaned/plagiarized from others. I will always be thankful for his life and ministry and the positive effect it had on my life and many others. Since my twi days I have continued to grow spiritually, and cannot imagine life not centered in God and His Word. My heart goes out to all of those who were hurt and threw out everything, including God and the Bible. I am thankful I was able to leave the bad behind, and take the good forward with me.
It is certain that if someone chose to examine my life there would no paucity of garbage and imperfections to be found in both the trail I've left behind and my current path. Along the way I have tried to right the wrongs I made and I know that my future holds many more errors I will make. But I hope that despite the bad in my life, I will have made positive contributions that will outshine and outlive the negatives. To me, the good in Dr. Wierwille's life and ministry far outweigh the negatives. I choose to focus on the good and not the bad, and build from there.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts, from one non-greasespot to another. (Will have to check with Sudo on that terminology - think greasespotters are those who post here, and a non-greasespot is one who left twi and did not end up a greasespot by midnight. So I guess they could be one in the same.)
Here's the thing with plagiarism: it's not a matter of learning from others and teaching what we've learned. It's a matter of taking what someone else wrote and passing it off as if you wrote it. There's a difference. I learned a lot from Wierwille, but I don't lift his paragraphs, change a word or two, and slap "By Raf" on the cover.
To you, the good in Wierwille's life and ministry far outweighs the negatives. Me? I'm not even keeping score. The good was the good, the bad was beneath contempt. Focusing on the good in Wierwille's life requires separating Wierwille from the good: there is none good but one.
Suda, so glad to see that you feel comfortable enough to express your pov here.......I think that it is nice to discuss differing points of view respectfully with one another....Something I never felt that I was permitted to do while involved in twi.
Technically .... * a grease spot by midnight* is what it was promised by martindale with the utmost of venom and contempt in his voice ..... would be the fate of ANYONE who ever left the ministry that taught us God`s word.
So we are all *greasespots* according to martindale.....
Welcome, welcome, dear suda! So glad to see you here sharing your opinions. I was 15 years in twi, with what they called an "unbelieving believer" husband for 14 of those 15 years. I was convinced by my new leadership that last year that I wasn't happy in that marriage and that my husband wasn't worthy of me, so I left him.
I take responsibility for being able to be convinced that I wasn't happy, but I resent twi for manipulating me. I still have trust issues that stem from my twi experiences over 10 years ago.
Within two years of my leaving my husband, twi falsely accused my son and me of being homosexual and marked and avoided us - ON THE SPOT. They never even asked us if it were true, they just barked out accusations in the nastiest terminology I ever heard and told us to go away. I was "given" 60 minutes to pack up and leave "their" campus. They never counselled us, never talked at all about it, just literally threw us away without explaining what the accusations against us were, beyond to say we were homosexuals.
I could understand if they really believed those accusations against us, if they would have offered what they later called "spiritual probation." At the time I would have been thankful for that. I didn't trust or respect anyone outside the ministry as far as any type of counselling could have been concerned. I even asked M. Fort if we could move somewhere, anywhere, even HQ so we could have the strongest of believers around to help us through whatever was to come. He laughed viciously and said they weren't a teaching, fellowshipping and COUNSELLING ministry. And after 15 years of faithful service to twi, we were tossed away without warning and turned over to Satan - and the funny part is that neither my son nor I are homosexual!
Annieways, I wanted to tell you that I've been praying for you and your family for years now (since I found waydale) and I'm impressed that you and your Mr. can have different views yet stay together all these years. And you have lovely children, if I do say so myself.
And since you brought it up, I think lcm used greasespot as if it were a bad thing, but we've found that it's really a nice thing to be a greasespot. Funny, a lot of what he said has turned out to be pretty much the opposite of what he thought it was.
So sorry for your evil treatment in twi and the hurt and confusion it caused you. Am glad you seem to have worked through a lot of it and experienced healing in those areas. I doubt that anyone has walked away from twi, or any other organization for that matter, without hurt and confusion because of the actions and words of some leader off their rocker. I am thankful for all the healing in my life related to twi and am glad I have reached a point where the past is the past, I can leave it behind and enjoy embarking on my future.
As for
"Annieways, I wanted to tell you that I've been praying for you and your family for years now (since I found waydale) and I'm impressed that you and your Mr. can have different views yet stay together all these years. And you have lovely children, if I do say so myself."
I appreciate the prayers for our family as I am sure they helped us through some very difficult times. It has not been easy making the transition as a couple from "like-mindedness" to "polar opposites". In fact, it has been and continues to be dam* hard work. We have to remember to respect
.......I think that it is nice to discuss differing points of view respectfully with one another....
as rascal stated. Yelling matches are minimized now, but it has been difficult for us as well as our children. Unfortunately, because their parents were at such great odds, they pretty much chose their own paths, so we are totally disjointed spiritually as a family. I go to a home fellowship which my husband refers to as "a cult, full of lies, total bullsh**"; he attends and teaches Sunday School at our former church, a Christian (Disciples of Christ) congregation, because it is what he feels is socially acceptable and expected, which I call "hypocritical"; our eldest daughter occasionally visits the First Chinese Baptist Church with her boyfriend (who is not Asian, but Caucasian, and it always tickled me when I picked them up and they were the only non-Asians there); our middle daughter joined a local Baptist Church several years ago and did not even tell us for fear of what the news might cause in our household (which really hurts my heart deeply that she does not feel comfortable discussing spiritual matters with me, but I'm thrilled she has found a place to worship that she enjoys); and our son limits his "church" attendance to weekly Chapel services at school, and has recently started reading his Bible daily, and does discuss spiritual topics with me occasionally. As a mother, I feel that my primary responsibility towards my children is to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of God, and that is a major challenge daily due to the spiritual mayhem in our household. But God continues to answer my prayers related to them, as well as to healing to marriage and relationship with my husband. The situation is not what I envisioned when we married, but I am thankful for our mutual respect for one another, our similar morals and values, and the hope that our relationship will continue to grow better and better each day. He is a good man, I love him, and we do the best we can in resolving our differences.
Well, sorry to go off on that tangent. Sudo keeps warning me that GSC is addictive. We'll see if that's true for me. Sure am enjoying the posting so far.
Wierwille taught various things from multiple sources, but one thing he did was to twist the Word and his position as a minister in Christ's body to satisfy his lusts. Some people looked at him as a father, and he, in turn, looked at them as conquests. To say he abused his position is an understatement.
Very easy to focus on the positive when he didn't have you escorted into his motorcoach where he could greet you with an open robe and a glass of liquor (or heaven forbid, worse).
I cannot help the fact that he taught a great many things, and that I learned from him. It's past and it's done. But respect the man? No, I do not. Nobody's perfect. I'll grant that. But you don't have to be perfect to be someone who doesn't prey on the people God has entrusted to you. You don't have to be perfect to be honest. You don't have to be perfect to be compassionate. People are so loathe to judge Wierwille. Well, you're judging him. You get to unilaterally decide that the good he did far outwieghed the bad. I hate to break it to you, but that is an insult to the people he abused, and the systematic way he abused them.
He taught me some Bible, but he sure as shootin ain't my father in the Word.
As for what I learned from him: I think we're all capable of sifting through it, keeping what fits and tossing out the rest. But that requires an honest look at what he taught.
Sounds like you have no communications with this group at present.
From whom, then, have you heard they are "really considering" this?
Would it be a less-than-objective source known for...alternative
interpretations of events, text and people?
Do you really KNOW they're considering this?
Sorry for my tardy reply WordWolf -- I should have answered you sooner.
No I do not KNOW that they are considering this, but here is what happened.
Back when I was on dial-up and aol (the dark ages), I got an instant message
from a guy named Sogwap (with a number after it) inviting me to a Pentecost celebration
they were having *at the farm*.
At first I thought it was the Sogwap who posts here occassionally, but it was a
different number after the name, and was another person entirely.
Plus -- this sogwap was in Minnesota, and when I asked if he kept in touch with Greasespot,
he said he had no time for likes of us.
Short of the long of it is -- he gave me his phone number
(which I have lost due to the puter crashing), but I gave him a call.
We talked for over two hours.
PS ---- He signed off on the instant message with "Rev. Richter, over and out". (I may be spelling the last name wrong - not sure)
Now -- this was when GSCafe was on the old board, and the PM's could be written in forum format.
Mike had two *threads* going there, and since I am half-way kind to him, I was invited along with others.
I thought Mike might be interested in talking with the guy, so I passed the phone number on to him.
Back in the GSCafe pm's -- Mike thanked me for telling him about this outfit, and mentioned that they (on the phone) really talked about docvic's last teaching,
(which the group up here was unaware of).
Now -- enter my *assumptions*.
Given the two hour talk I had with *Rev. Richter*, and given what Mike loves,
It wasn't hard for me to put *two and two* together.
This seemed like a *match made in Heavan*.
Staunch Docvic-ites, and Mike there to tell them what they were missing.
Like I said -- my phone conversation left me with NO DOUBT that docvic's teachings
were pre-eminent in the *ministry* work they have going on there in the Minneapolis area.
Granted I do not KNOW that they are really considering the last teaching,
but given what I heard from Mike (in the old pm section of GSCafe);
and given what I heard from that two hour phone conversation;
I can say (for a fact) -- that this outfit will consider any and all, if it comes from docvic.
I agree wholeheartedly that the sexual abuse by Dr. Wierwille and other leadership, from headquarters all the way down to the twig level, was unconsciounable and inexcusable. And it filtered it's way down to the "rank and file believers" as evidenced by the rampant sexual activity among so many members. It would not surprise me to learn that the majority of hurt inflicted by twi had it's roots in this sexual sphere. I know it certainly caused me enormous amounts of confusion, anguish, condemnation, and hurt that took me years to overcome.
Twi came into it's heydey in the 60's and 70's when the young people in the society at large were in the midst of the sexual revolution, and twi jumped on the bandwagon. Instead of teaching abstinence like the Bible and churches did, they had Christian Family and Sex. While not directly encouraging pre-marital sex and adultery, it put a hefty gray wash on it, and did not discourage or prohibit it, either. Their stance seemed to be to leave it up to each individual to decide for him/herself based upon faulty teaching given in the CFS seminar. The most glaring example to me was the inaccurate handling of I Corinthians 7:1 b " . . . It is good for a man not to touch a woman." and from the context it is apparent it meant in the way he would touch his wife. Obviously if it was not good, then it was bad, and something to avoid. But instead, from my (somewhat faulty) memory, the gist of what was taught was something like 'well, it's not the best thing for you to do, but it's not the worst thing either'. I remember discussing it with the seminar leader and saying that was contrary to what verse 2 said, "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife,and let every woman have her own husband." His response was something like it never specfically stated do not have sex outside of marriage, but he could see where I was coming from in thinking it was certainly implied. So with faulty doctrine such as that, it's no wonder that most people jumped on the "if it feels good, do it" bandwagon and freely experimented with sex with whomever they chose.
But there's a huge difference between two unmarried people consenting to be sexually active, and someone being pressured into a sexual liasion. Seems to me that crap about serving a mog (in whatever leadership capacity he was in) sexually was based upon another CFS erroneous teaching about David being the king, so all the women in the kingdom belonged to him, so technically there was nothing wrong with him sleeping with Bathsheba. His error was in having Uriah killed in battle to coverup the pregnancy. Well, if it was okay for David to bed her, and it was known that sexual intercourse often resulted in pregnancy, then why would there have been a problem with her becoming pregnant? Why a need to cover it up? Coverups aren't necessary for things that are right, so David bedding her must have be wrong even if he were the king. Somehow, David's status as king and was equated to that of a mog, and a King's access to anyone in his kingdom was equated to the a mog's access to anyone in his realm of influence. As it was complete bull and, therefore, confusing, I was never able to understand it then, and have trouble restating it here. And then there was that malarkey about Paul being ministered to by the women in the areas he visited. And somehow their ministering was stretched from the customary components of hospitality in meeting his physical needs for food, drink, and shelter, all the way to meeting his sexual needs also.
And all the loosey-goosey teaching then led to it being okay for brothers- and sisters-in-Christ to bless each other by taking care of each others sexual needs. I even heard junk like it being perfectly acceptable for a married, male twig coordinator to minister to the sexual needs of his single, female twigettes. Yes indeed, the whole sexual arena was out-of-control inside twi and outside during that horrid sexual revolution, the effects of which are continuing to ruin our society today.
And, yes, against my better judgment, I got caught up in it also. After being raped in college (thankfully by an unknown intruder, not someone I knew and trusted) I decided if my chastity belt could be ripped off by a stranger, I might as well choose my partner(s) and enjoy the ride. Stupid decision, devoid of logic, but one I made just the same, and paid hell for it. And after CFS, I assuaged my guilt with information I knew in my heart to be untrue. (My, how far we will go to try and defend to ourselves the poor decisions we make. But our conscience is always in there fighting for us to face the truth and get back on track. The majority of my hurt stemmed from me letting myself down, from allowing myself to get involved in a relationship I knew was wrong deep down in my heart. But under the influence of youthful lust, and persuasion based upon CFS bull by a mog I trusted, I rationalized it and allowed myself to proceed. The hard part for me was for forgiving myself, not forgiving others.)
Excathedra, my heart goes out to you for the abusive way he treated you. As I said earlier, it was both
unconsciounable and inexcusable. I pray that God will heal your heart.
In the sexual arena, I agree with you Raf that
Wierwille taught various things from multiple sources, but one thing he did was to twist the Word and his position as a minister in Christ's body to satisfy his lusts. Some people looked at him as a father, and he, in turn, looked at them as conquests. To say he abused his position is an understatement.
Very easy to focus on the positive when he didn't have you escorted into his motorcoach where he could greet you with an open robe and a glass of liquor (or heaven forbid, worse).
Although he never directly harassed me sexually, the CFS school of thought led to me being sexually harassed on numerous occasions by others (leadership, corp, and lay wayfer). And when I went against my better judgment, it resulted in the immense heartache I mentioned earlier in this post. I accept my responsibility for the poor decision I made and have finally been able to forgive myself. I have also been able to work through the hurt, anger and confusion towards the other party, and forgive him, also. And I pray for both healing for and forgiveness from anyone hurt by my actions as I know that poor decisions always hurt others, also.
But despite all that has happened, I will still focus on the postive, and be thankful for the many benefits I received from Dr. Wierwille's right teachings and my time with twi. To me, the positives do outweigh the negatives. As for
People are so loathe to judge Wierwille. Well, you're judging him. You get to unilaterally decide that the good he did far outwieghed the bad. I hate to break it to you, but that is an insult to the people he abused, and the systematic way he abused them.
I do not see how expressing my opinion of my experience equates to me making a unilateral decision (nor declaration) representing everyone ever associated with twi. I speak for myself only, and hope that my opinions will not be misinterpreted as insults directed towards anyone. And, yes we agree that
I think we're all capable of sifting through it, keeping what fits and tossing out the rest. But that requires an honest look at what he taught.
Reading your posts, I assume that living with Sudo must be "interesting"...
It's good to see a person who is faith filled and endeavoring to shed the best light on a "situation"...my only comment is to say that I think Wierwille was a loathsome creature and I have nothing but contempt for him...but let me compliment you on your courage to say what you have said, here at the Greasespot...
...defending Wierwille's life is a thankless job here...
Plagiarism? Guess John Juedes has something about that. Some booklet. I don't know if he is a real Ph.D. or not as he does not mention his schools that he got his degrees from, but I take his word on it I suppose. He mention that they are accredited by regional or national organizations. If he wanted to tell us where he graduated from, then he would. But he does sell or give away a booklet or collection of things VPW plagiarised.
I thought VPW was going to write a book on his life and ministry. It would begin:
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."
I felt much the way you do about VPW, for years after leaving TWI. But over time, after hearing many, many stories I know (experiencially) to be true, and putting the pieces together from talking and listening to the patrons of this cafe, I have CHANGED MY MIND.
And I have learned that it's not a crime, to change my mind after learning more facts. It's perfectly acceptable to do so.
My opinion is that most people who hold to PFAL, or retain a high percentage of Wierwille-taught doctrine don't critically examine what he taught.
This opinion is based only on what I see printed here, and from the few people who believe that way that I know personally. Since I don't physically interact with most of youse guys, that's all I have to go on.
What I mean by critically examine, is to start from scratch. This doesn't necessarily mean to throw everything out, but it does mean to look at everything with a fresh set of eyes. To me, this means to not just re-read the verse, check the Young's concordance and say "Yup, makes sense to me,VP was right", but to question ALL of his assumptions, his definitions, his methods.
Is your view of a section of scripture based upon a definition of a Greek word that you have only seen in Wierwille's works? Are all the "keys" to interpreting the bible actually true? Can you spot all the doctrinal strawmen that Wierwille throws out in his effort to discredit opposing ideas? Have you looked at the opposing doctrinal positions that make sense?
None of this has anything to do with Wierwille's character or originality. As Raf said, Wierwille's works stand or fall on their own merits.
BUT...
...someone whose moral character is reprehensible, who lies and plagiarizes, etc, etc, etc...
...is not someone who we should take at their word.
I've been away from twi for about 20 years now. Was involved for for about 10 years. When I look back over my past, the one affiliation (outside of my family, of course) that most shaped my life and helped me to grow into the person I am was twi. If I were in college again, with complete foreknowledge of my future 30 years hence, I would still choose to be involved with twi.
I still have a lot of growing and changing and improving ahead of me I hope as a good life is always full learning. But despite my many imperfections, I am quite comfortable with who I am and like the person I see each morning in the mirror. The central reason why is my relationship with God, and my desire to live a life of service to Him. I had searched all over in my spiritual quest to find the information that was presented in twi. The truth truly set me free, and I will always be eternally grateful to the man I feel was most responsible for setting me on the proper course in my spiritual journey, and that was Dr. Wierwille.
Since twi, Daniel and I visited many churches, and finally found one we felt comfortable joining in the early 90's. I was even invited to be a part of their "corp" program, The Training of the Twelve. It is a very large church, and only 12 people per year are asked to participate in this training program. It such a pathetic joke, and each week I ended up in heated arguments with the senior minister about how topics he presented were so opposed to the Bible. It became quite funny, because many Sunday he would teach from the pulpit about 'you won't believe what a person I counseled earlier this week told me she believed about the Bible. She said . . .", and all of the 12, and soon many members of the congregation knew exactly who he was talking about and would turn and look at me, some frowning, some giving a thumbs up. The class was about split equally on who they sided with, me or him, and 1 of the 3 ministers leading the training program came to rest of my side of the bench. I was quite involved, teaching adult as well and pre-school Sunday School, taught Children's Church for several years, vacation bible school, worked with children's choir, everything. I finally left after about 7 years when I was told I was no longer welcome. It was so dead spiritually, I was not upset about leaving. For me it had been all give, no receive, although I met a lot of wonderful people I still keep in contact with.
Then the children and I continued to visit other churches with friends, or on our own, and there never was place that I could call home. So I went back to twi type fellowships in about 2002, and have loved every minute of it. I give and receive and grow. We study materials from various sources, but most are VPW's as they are the best we have found. And I see signs, miracles, a wonders constantly in my life as well as those of my fellow believers. Daniel likes the church, I like my fellowship. And unless something better is introduced to me, that's where I'll be.
Give my love to your family - Just not the same without you here. I love all of you bunches.
Welcome, Suda. Would the Self's be a part of your fellowship??? I lived in the Memphis area from 1992 to 2004. The Self's went to Ron and Sheliah C's twig, along with a Peggy & her daughter Evelyn, and myself, and a few others here and there.... I walked away in 1994 from twi.
Have only spoken with Ron and Sheliah (now divorced) since 1994. Never saw any of the folks about town.
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justloafing
Hi Sudossuda :)
Not picking on you but a lot of people say what you have said what I put in quotes.
My take on that and what he would say and what he should have said.
vp says or said: "I am not a God or the God. He (God) just taught me the Word so I could teach it to others."
What vp ment to say: "I am Lord over all of you and you will obey what I teach you, othewise I will ruin your lives. Give me your money so I can become rich. So learn "My" Word, go out and teach it to others so they will give me money. Ohhh and yes when my teaching is over, meet me at the motor coach so I can rape you and bless your life."
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justloafing
I guess I should have added above.
Actions speak louder than words.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
well mrs sudo i don't agree with you but i bid you a hardy welcome!
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
p.s.
mrs. sudo
imo doc vic {praise be his name}
was the perfect example of a wolf in sheeps clothing but again welcome
i hope to get to know you
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allan w.
Hi Sudosuda ! Take heart, not everybody here hates VP's guts. SOME of us like you remain thankful for VP's ministry helping to get us 'on the right track' (for ourselves) and are STILL enjoying the blessings and comfort of what was taught.
A perusal of the 'Everything is broken' thread is a timely reminder for me to stay on course on the journey God has called me and my family to.
God Bless you Sudosuda
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Suda
Thanks for all the welcomes to this thread. It's good to know we can disagree, but still share ideas and learn from each other.
In reading through threads, it seems one of the major points on controversy on VPW's teaching was that he plagiarized from others and did not credit them in his teachings and/or written works. Plagiarism is unethical and if he is guilty (and seems he may be from the research many here at GSC have done) it is a flaw in his character. Call me naive or whatever, but I was always under the impression that he had learned much from the research of others and taught those portions he believed to be true. I was more interested in the content of teachings than the sources from which they were gleaned. In written works, I agree sources should have been noted. But I don't really care who the source of right doctrine is, as long as I have the opportunity to hear it and judge for myself whether to accept it or not. Maybe I was lucky, but I never felt pressured to accept or believe something just because he or any other person taught it. I always felt free to question, and felt encouraged to do so. How many times were we told not just to accept something at face value, but to research it ourselves, see if it fit with the rest of the Word, and decide for ourselves. That was the only way to "make it your own" and have it become a part of your belief system.
From some of the posts I've read, it would seem that many did not feel free to question, and that is a tragedy. I am thankful they escaped such an oppressive environment. Had I ever felt that my twi experience was dominated by "If VPW/Leadership said it, that settles it" versus "God said it, that settles it" I would have left immediately. In fact, that's when I did leave when the mark and avoid teachings came out. They did not ring true to me from the beginning, and I realized that the twi I had loved and enjoyed no longer existed and I wanted no part of the shell that was left in it's place. When that weekend seminar ended, so did my affiliation with twi as an organization. I still kept it touch (and still do) with friends I made during my twi tenure, and highly treasure many of those friendships. I guess I received the mark and avoid stamp, also, as some people chose not to associate with me after that. I counted it their loss, not mine, and kept on living my life.
I will always be immensely thankful for the time I spent with twi and for the foundation it laid enabling me to develop a personal, intimate relationship with God. And I credit Dr. Wierwille's teachings for the majority of this, whether it was his "original" knowledge, or that he gleaned/plagiarized from others. I will always be thankful for his life and ministry and the positive effect it had on my life and many others. Since my twi days I have continued to grow spiritually, and cannot imagine life not centered in God and His Word. My heart goes out to all of those who were hurt and threw out everything, including God and the Bible. I am thankful I was able to leave the bad behind, and take the good forward with me.
It is certain that if someone chose to examine my life there would no paucity of garbage and imperfections to be found in both the trail I've left behind and my current path. Along the way I have tried to right the wrongs I made and I know that my future holds many more errors I will make. But I hope that despite the bad in my life, I will have made positive contributions that will outshine and outlive the negatives. To me, the good in Dr. Wierwille's life and ministry far outweigh the negatives. I choose to focus on the good and not the bad, and build from there.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts, from one non-greasespot to another. (Will have to check with Sudo on that terminology - think greasespotters are those who post here, and a non-greasespot is one who left twi and did not end up a greasespot by midnight. So I guess they could be one in the same.)
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Raf
Here's the thing with plagiarism: it's not a matter of learning from others and teaching what we've learned. It's a matter of taking what someone else wrote and passing it off as if you wrote it. There's a difference. I learned a lot from Wierwille, but I don't lift his paragraphs, change a word or two, and slap "By Raf" on the cover.
To you, the good in Wierwille's life and ministry far outweighs the negatives. Me? I'm not even keeping score. The good was the good, the bad was beneath contempt. Focusing on the good in Wierwille's life requires separating Wierwille from the good: there is none good but one.
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rascal
Suda, so glad to see that you feel comfortable enough to express your pov here.......I think that it is nice to discuss differing points of view respectfully with one another....Something I never felt that I was permitted to do while involved in twi.
Technically .... * a grease spot by midnight* is what it was promised by martindale with the utmost of venom and contempt in his voice ..... would be the fate of ANYONE who ever left the ministry that taught us God`s word.
So we are all *greasespots* according to martindale.....
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bowtwi
Welcome, welcome, dear suda! So glad to see you here sharing your opinions. I was 15 years in twi, with what they called an "unbelieving believer" husband for 14 of those 15 years. I was convinced by my new leadership that last year that I wasn't happy in that marriage and that my husband wasn't worthy of me, so I left him.
I take responsibility for being able to be convinced that I wasn't happy, but I resent twi for manipulating me. I still have trust issues that stem from my twi experiences over 10 years ago.
Within two years of my leaving my husband, twi falsely accused my son and me of being homosexual and marked and avoided us - ON THE SPOT. They never even asked us if it were true, they just barked out accusations in the nastiest terminology I ever heard and told us to go away. I was "given" 60 minutes to pack up and leave "their" campus. They never counselled us, never talked at all about it, just literally threw us away without explaining what the accusations against us were, beyond to say we were homosexuals.
I could understand if they really believed those accusations against us, if they would have offered what they later called "spiritual probation." At the time I would have been thankful for that. I didn't trust or respect anyone outside the ministry as far as any type of counselling could have been concerned. I even asked M. Fort if we could move somewhere, anywhere, even HQ so we could have the strongest of believers around to help us through whatever was to come. He laughed viciously and said they weren't a teaching, fellowshipping and COUNSELLING ministry. And after 15 years of faithful service to twi, we were tossed away without warning and turned over to Satan - and the funny part is that neither my son nor I are homosexual!
Annieways, I wanted to tell you that I've been praying for you and your family for years now (since I found waydale) and I'm impressed that you and your Mr. can have different views yet stay together all these years. And you have lovely children, if I do say so myself.
And since you brought it up, I think lcm used greasespot as if it were a bad thing, but we've found that it's really a nice thing to be a greasespot. Funny, a lot of what he said has turned out to be pretty much the opposite of what he thought it was.
Hope to see you around here a bunch!!!
I'm a little greasespot
short and stout.
Sock it to me baby
let it all hang out!
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Suda
Bowtwi,
So sorry for your evil treatment in twi and the hurt and confusion it caused you. Am glad you seem to have worked through a lot of it and experienced healing in those areas. I doubt that anyone has walked away from twi, or any other organization for that matter, without hurt and confusion because of the actions and words of some leader off their rocker. I am thankful for all the healing in my life related to twi and am glad I have reached a point where the past is the past, I can leave it behind and enjoy embarking on my future.
As for
I appreciate the prayers for our family as I am sure they helped us through some very difficult times. It has not been easy making the transition as a couple from "like-mindedness" to "polar opposites". In fact, it has been and continues to be dam* hard work. We have to remember to respect as rascal stated. Yelling matches are minimized now, but it has been difficult for us as well as our children. Unfortunately, because their parents were at such great odds, they pretty much chose their own paths, so we are totally disjointed spiritually as a family. I go to a home fellowship which my husband refers to as "a cult, full of lies, total bullsh**"; he attends and teaches Sunday School at our former church, a Christian (Disciples of Christ) congregation, because it is what he feels is socially acceptable and expected, which I call "hypocritical"; our eldest daughter occasionally visits the First Chinese Baptist Church with her boyfriend (who is not Asian, but Caucasian, and it always tickled me when I picked them up and they were the only non-Asians there); our middle daughter joined a local Baptist Church several years ago and did not even tell us for fear of what the news might cause in our household (which really hurts my heart deeply that she does not feel comfortable discussing spiritual matters with me, but I'm thrilled she has found a place to worship that she enjoys); and our son limits his "church" attendance to weekly Chapel services at school, and has recently started reading his Bible daily, and does discuss spiritual topics with me occasionally. As a mother, I feel that my primary responsibility towards my children is to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of God, and that is a major challenge daily due to the spiritual mayhem in our household. But God continues to answer my prayers related to them, as well as to healing to marriage and relationship with my husband. The situation is not what I envisioned when we married, but I am thankful for our mutual respect for one another, our similar morals and values, and the hope that our relationship will continue to grow better and better each day. He is a good man, I love him, and we do the best we can in resolving our differences.Well, sorry to go off on that tangent. Sudo keeps warning me that GSC is addictive. We'll see if that's true for me. Sure am enjoying the posting so far.
God Bless!
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excathedra
sudo's wife, since i was 18, he did nothing but counsel me as to why god wanted me to $&*# him
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Raf
(I was waiting for you, excy).
Wierwille taught various things from multiple sources, but one thing he did was to twist the Word and his position as a minister in Christ's body to satisfy his lusts. Some people looked at him as a father, and he, in turn, looked at them as conquests. To say he abused his position is an understatement.
Very easy to focus on the positive when he didn't have you escorted into his motorcoach where he could greet you with an open robe and a glass of liquor (or heaven forbid, worse).
I cannot help the fact that he taught a great many things, and that I learned from him. It's past and it's done. But respect the man? No, I do not. Nobody's perfect. I'll grant that. But you don't have to be perfect to be someone who doesn't prey on the people God has entrusted to you. You don't have to be perfect to be honest. You don't have to be perfect to be compassionate. People are so loathe to judge Wierwille. Well, you're judging him. You get to unilaterally decide that the good he did far outwieghed the bad. I hate to break it to you, but that is an insult to the people he abused, and the systematic way he abused them.
He taught me some Bible, but he sure as shootin ain't my father in the Word.
As for what I learned from him: I think we're all capable of sifting through it, keeping what fits and tossing out the rest. But that requires an honest look at what he taught.
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dmiller
Sorry for my tardy reply WordWolf -- I should have answered you sooner.
No I do not KNOW that they are considering this, but here is what happened.
Back when I was on dial-up and aol (the dark ages), I got an instant message
from a guy named Sogwap (with a number after it) inviting me to a Pentecost celebration
they were having *at the farm*.
At first I thought it was the Sogwap who posts here occassionally, but it was a
different number after the name, and was another person entirely.
Plus -- this sogwap was in Minnesota, and when I asked if he kept in touch with Greasespot,
he said he had no time for likes of us.
Short of the long of it is -- he gave me his phone number
(which I have lost due to the puter crashing), but I gave him a call.
We talked for over two hours.
PS ---- He signed off on the instant message with "Rev. Richter, over and out". (I may be spelling the last name wrong - not sure)
Now -- this was when GSCafe was on the old board, and the PM's could be written in forum format.
Mike had two *threads* going there, and since I am half-way kind to him, I was invited along with others.
I thought Mike might be interested in talking with the guy, so I passed the phone number on to him.
Back in the GSCafe pm's -- Mike thanked me for telling him about this outfit, and mentioned that they (on the phone) really talked about docvic's last teaching,
(which the group up here was unaware of).
Now -- enter my *assumptions*.
Given the two hour talk I had with *Rev. Richter*, and given what Mike loves,
It wasn't hard for me to put *two and two* together.
This seemed like a *match made in Heavan*.
Staunch Docvic-ites, and Mike there to tell them what they were missing.
Like I said -- my phone conversation left me with NO DOUBT that docvic's teachings
were pre-eminent in the *ministry* work they have going on there in the Minneapolis area.
Granted I do not KNOW that they are really considering the last teaching,
but given what I heard from Mike (in the old pm section of GSCafe);
and given what I heard from that two hour phone conversation;
I can say (for a fact) -- that this outfit will consider any and all, if it comes from docvic.
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Suda
Excathedra and Raf,
I agree wholeheartedly that the sexual abuse by Dr. Wierwille and other leadership, from headquarters all the way down to the twig level, was unconsciounable and inexcusable. And it filtered it's way down to the "rank and file believers" as evidenced by the rampant sexual activity among so many members. It would not surprise me to learn that the majority of hurt inflicted by twi had it's roots in this sexual sphere. I know it certainly caused me enormous amounts of confusion, anguish, condemnation, and hurt that took me years to overcome.
Twi came into it's heydey in the 60's and 70's when the young people in the society at large were in the midst of the sexual revolution, and twi jumped on the bandwagon. Instead of teaching abstinence like the Bible and churches did, they had Christian Family and Sex. While not directly encouraging pre-marital sex and adultery, it put a hefty gray wash on it, and did not discourage or prohibit it, either. Their stance seemed to be to leave it up to each individual to decide for him/herself based upon faulty teaching given in the CFS seminar. The most glaring example to me was the inaccurate handling of I Corinthians 7:1 b " . . . It is good for a man not to touch a woman." and from the context it is apparent it meant in the way he would touch his wife. Obviously if it was not good, then it was bad, and something to avoid. But instead, from my (somewhat faulty) memory, the gist of what was taught was something like 'well, it's not the best thing for you to do, but it's not the worst thing either'. I remember discussing it with the seminar leader and saying that was contrary to what verse 2 said, "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife,and let every woman have her own husband." His response was something like it never specfically stated do not have sex outside of marriage, but he could see where I was coming from in thinking it was certainly implied. So with faulty doctrine such as that, it's no wonder that most people jumped on the "if it feels good, do it" bandwagon and freely experimented with sex with whomever they chose.
But there's a huge difference between two unmarried people consenting to be sexually active, and someone being pressured into a sexual liasion. Seems to me that crap about serving a mog (in whatever leadership capacity he was in) sexually was based upon another CFS erroneous teaching about David being the king, so all the women in the kingdom belonged to him, so technically there was nothing wrong with him sleeping with Bathsheba. His error was in having Uriah killed in battle to coverup the pregnancy. Well, if it was okay for David to bed her, and it was known that sexual intercourse often resulted in pregnancy, then why would there have been a problem with her becoming pregnant? Why a need to cover it up? Coverups aren't necessary for things that are right, so David bedding her must have be wrong even if he were the king. Somehow, David's status as king and was equated to that of a mog, and a King's access to anyone in his kingdom was equated to the a mog's access to anyone in his realm of influence. As it was complete bull and, therefore, confusing, I was never able to understand it then, and have trouble restating it here. And then there was that malarkey about Paul being ministered to by the women in the areas he visited. And somehow their ministering was stretched from the customary components of hospitality in meeting his physical needs for food, drink, and shelter, all the way to meeting his sexual needs also.
And all the loosey-goosey teaching then led to it being okay for brothers- and sisters-in-Christ to bless each other by taking care of each others sexual needs. I even heard junk like it being perfectly acceptable for a married, male twig coordinator to minister to the sexual needs of his single, female twigettes. Yes indeed, the whole sexual arena was out-of-control inside twi and outside during that horrid sexual revolution, the effects of which are continuing to ruin our society today.
And, yes, against my better judgment, I got caught up in it also. After being raped in college (thankfully by an unknown intruder, not someone I knew and trusted) I decided if my chastity belt could be ripped off by a stranger, I might as well choose my partner(s) and enjoy the ride. Stupid decision, devoid of logic, but one I made just the same, and paid hell for it. And after CFS, I assuaged my guilt with information I knew in my heart to be untrue. (My, how far we will go to try and defend to ourselves the poor decisions we make. But our conscience is always in there fighting for us to face the truth and get back on track. The majority of my hurt stemmed from me letting myself down, from allowing myself to get involved in a relationship I knew was wrong deep down in my heart. But under the influence of youthful lust, and persuasion based upon CFS bull by a mog I trusted, I rationalized it and allowed myself to proceed. The hard part for me was for forgiving myself, not forgiving others.)
Excathedra, my heart goes out to you for the abusive way he treated you. As I said earlier, it was both
unconsciounable and inexcusable. I pray that God will heal your heart.
In the sexual arena, I agree with you Raf that
Although he never directly harassed me sexually, the CFS school of thought led to me being sexually harassed on numerous occasions by others (leadership, corp, and lay wayfer). And when I went against my better judgment, it resulted in the immense heartache I mentioned earlier in this post. I accept my responsibility for the poor decision I made and have finally been able to forgive myself. I have also been able to work through the hurt, anger and confusion towards the other party, and forgive him, also. And I pray for both healing for and forgiveness from anyone hurt by my actions as I know that poor decisions always hurt others, also.But despite all that has happened, I will still focus on the postive, and be thankful for the many benefits I received from Dr. Wierwille's right teachings and my time with twi. To me, the positives do outweigh the negatives. As for
I do not see how expressing my opinion of my experience equates to me making a unilateral decision (nor declaration) representing everyone ever associated with twi. I speak for myself only, and hope that my opinions will not be misinterpreted as insults directed towards anyone. And, yes we agree thatLink to comment
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shazdancer
Hi, Sudosuda!
I think of it rather, thank God I was able to learn a few good things, in spite of a leader who abused many.
I can't see it as being thankful for his life and ministry.
He taught important things at times, despite his less-than-Christian intent.
Regards,
Shaz
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GrouchoMarxJr
suda...welcome to the cafe.
Reading your posts, I assume that living with Sudo must be "interesting"...
It's good to see a person who is faith filled and endeavoring to shed the best light on a "situation"...my only comment is to say that I think Wierwille was a loathsome creature and I have nothing but contempt for him...but let me compliment you on your courage to say what you have said, here at the Greasespot...
...defending Wierwille's life is a thankless job here...
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Eagle
Plagiarism? Guess John Juedes has something about that. Some booklet. I don't know if he is a real Ph.D. or not as he does not mention his schools that he got his degrees from, but I take his word on it I suppose. He mention that they are accredited by regional or national organizations. If he wanted to tell us where he graduated from, then he would. But he does sell or give away a booklet or collection of things VPW plagiarised.
I thought VPW was going to write a book on his life and ministry. It would begin:
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."
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dmiller
Either that, or -------
"Once upon a snowy summer day .... "
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ex10
Hi suda,
I felt much the way you do about VPW, for years after leaving TWI. But over time, after hearing many, many stories I know (experiencially) to be true, and putting the pieces together from talking and listening to the patrons of this cafe, I have CHANGED MY MIND.
And I have learned that it's not a crime, to change my mind after learning more facts. It's perfectly acceptable to do so.
I hope you enjoy the menu here. :)
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act2
ex10, you took the words right out of my mouth. That is EXACTLY how I felt also.
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dmiller
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Oakspear
My opinion is that most people who hold to PFAL, or retain a high percentage of Wierwille-taught doctrine don't critically examine what he taught.
This opinion is based only on what I see printed here, and from the few people who believe that way that I know personally. Since I don't physically interact with most of youse guys, that's all I have to go on.
What I mean by critically examine, is to start from scratch. This doesn't necessarily mean to throw everything out, but it does mean to look at everything with a fresh set of eyes. To me, this means to not just re-read the verse, check the Young's concordance and say "Yup, makes sense to me,VP was right", but to question ALL of his assumptions, his definitions, his methods.
Is your view of a section of scripture based upon a definition of a Greek word that you have only seen in Wierwille's works? Are all the "keys" to interpreting the bible actually true? Can you spot all the doctrinal strawmen that Wierwille throws out in his effort to discredit opposing ideas? Have you looked at the opposing doctrinal positions that make sense?
None of this has anything to do with Wierwille's character or originality. As Raf said, Wierwille's works stand or fall on their own merits.
BUT...
...someone whose moral character is reprehensible, who lies and plagiarizes, etc, etc, etc...
...is not someone who we should take at their word.
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Suda
Ex 10,
Am enjoying the menu very much.
I've been away from twi for about 20 years now. Was involved for for about 10 years. When I look back over my past, the one affiliation (outside of my family, of course) that most shaped my life and helped me to grow into the person I am was twi. If I were in college again, with complete foreknowledge of my future 30 years hence, I would still choose to be involved with twi.
I still have a lot of growing and changing and improving ahead of me I hope as a good life is always full learning. But despite my many imperfections, I am quite comfortable with who I am and like the person I see each morning in the mirror. The central reason why is my relationship with God, and my desire to live a life of service to Him. I had searched all over in my spiritual quest to find the information that was presented in twi. The truth truly set me free, and I will always be eternally grateful to the man I feel was most responsible for setting me on the proper course in my spiritual journey, and that was Dr. Wierwille.
Since twi, Daniel and I visited many churches, and finally found one we felt comfortable joining in the early 90's. I was even invited to be a part of their "corp" program, The Training of the Twelve. It is a very large church, and only 12 people per year are asked to participate in this training program. It such a pathetic joke, and each week I ended up in heated arguments with the senior minister about how topics he presented were so opposed to the Bible. It became quite funny, because many Sunday he would teach from the pulpit about 'you won't believe what a person I counseled earlier this week told me she believed about the Bible. She said . . .", and all of the 12, and soon many members of the congregation knew exactly who he was talking about and would turn and look at me, some frowning, some giving a thumbs up. The class was about split equally on who they sided with, me or him, and 1 of the 3 ministers leading the training program came to rest of my side of the bench. I was quite involved, teaching adult as well and pre-school Sunday School, taught Children's Church for several years, vacation bible school, worked with children's choir, everything. I finally left after about 7 years when I was told I was no longer welcome. It was so dead spiritually, I was not upset about leaving. For me it had been all give, no receive, although I met a lot of wonderful people I still keep in contact with.
Then the children and I continued to visit other churches with friends, or on our own, and there never was place that I could call home. So I went back to twi type fellowships in about 2002, and have loved every minute of it. I give and receive and grow. We study materials from various sources, but most are VPW's as they are the best we have found. And I see signs, miracles, a wonders constantly in my life as well as those of my fellow believers. Daniel likes the church, I like my fellowship. And unless something better is introduced to me, that's where I'll be.
Give my love to your family - Just not the same without you here. I love all of you bunches.
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act2
Welcome, Suda. Would the Self's be a part of your fellowship??? I lived in the Memphis area from 1992 to 2004. The Self's went to Ron and Sheliah C's twig, along with a Peggy & her daughter Evelyn, and myself, and a few others here and there.... I walked away in 1994 from twi.
Have only spoken with Ron and Sheliah (now divorced) since 1994. Never saw any of the folks about town.
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