Would someone who who graduated from the Way Corps in 1985 say that 'I went to the Way and graduated in 1985'?
The little credibility that ckmkeon had has vanished.
A person on a message board has credibility?
I figure that a person can either respond, for fun, or not feed the troll...but as long as he doesn't violate the forum rules, fantasyland or a twisted version of reality is his business and his business alone.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area.
All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums. There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it outside of the forum. Threads of that nature will be deleted or sent to the Soap Opera Forum.
Yes Mark, it happens. Sometimes one can see that a person stays true to their word and speaks honestly from the heart. Don't know if ck is or not but whoever this person is hasn't shown much of anything in my opinion. And people change too, seen that here at gsc.
Sure, Mark. Maybe this isn't true for you, but based on past performance, there are some posters whose posts I accept more readily than others. If I catch someone making a false statement, I'm less likely to take what they say at face value in the future.
I figure that a person can either respond, for fun, or not feed the troll...but as long as he doesn't violate the forum rules, fantasyland or a twisted version of reality is his business and his business alone.
I see your point...to a point - I guess other posters' imaginary friends aren't my business
You know what I think is wrong everyone that got fired by The Way coming on here and making comments on how bad Dr.Wierwille taught. Sooner or later you should think on your own and stop reading the post here and making wrong comments. (oh by the way I am the dad)
Ken
"fired by The Way" ? Who talks like that ? I've never heard ANYONE involved with TWI ever use this terminology. And worse its "everyone that got fired by The Way" as if all those who ever were M&Aed or left under less than ideal cicrcumstances is now here at Gspot ? This post has troll written all over it. Seems both CK and "Ken" share near identical writing patterns....
This reminds me that back on Waydale there was a poster there whom I firmly believe to have been a troll who had no practical experience with TWI based on the odd way that he or she would phrase things. Its like they had been reading the various posts and sought to construct some type of Way identity based on the experiences of others. Anyway, this person posted fairly standard stuff but then got very defensive about PFAL and VPW. So once the discussion got very detailed this person started screwing up details very badly even making some massive blunders such as having LCM's WAP class predating PFAL. Of course that was very telling but the poster claimed he had just transposed the two by accident. But there were other blunders that busted him/her like confusing the WOW and Corps programs. After a few confrontations on this they left or at least returned to lurk mode.
Yes Mark, it happens. Sometimes one can see that a person stays true to their word and speaks honestly from the heart. Don't know if ck is or not but whoever this person is hasn't shown much of anything in my opinion. And people change too, seen that here at gsc.
Clay, I would call that consistency. Seriously.
Anything said by anybody on a board should be taken with a very serious grain of salt. Taking anybody's word for anything without independent verification (and then validation of the independent source) is, again, imho, not a wise move.
Why? Because somebody can be seen as "speaking honestly from the heart" but could be also be consistently crafting a well-constructed tale. Not to sound suspicious and certainly not to accuse somebody here of that at all, but a person is foolish if he doesn't keep that in the back of his mind.
Again, imho and ymmv.
And I realize that many on gsc know each other personally (unlike most message boards), but with the exception of very, very, very few here, that's not the case with me. My complete knowledge of the vast majority of folks is from the electromagnetic residue they leave on the hard disks of the server farm contracted to host this site. Thus I don't assume honesty or automatically reject an assumption of honesty. All I can do is take somebody at his word. If his words are consistent then I can say he is consistent. If his words line up with independently verifiable reality, then I can say that he is either experienced or has done his homework.
So if a person says he graduated from the Way in 1985, who am I to doubt his word? And if he said he graduated from Family XX in 1985, who am I to doubt his word? On the other hand, why should I take him at his word? All I can do is say that his posts are consistent (or not), that his story lines up with other stories I've seen (or not), or that his story is consistent with independently-verifiable reality (or not). But to beleive (or disbelieve)? That's a different story altogether.
You suggested earlier that he might be a troll or a plant. Based upon my experience, I would reject a plant, because a plant would likely be more cautious to ensure his story was consistent with others. A troll? That, frankly, seems more likely to me, but still rather unlikely. Taking him at his word seems to be the most likely.
Consider this: Parents graduated from WC or College Program in mid 80s. Worshipped the ground VP walked on. VP died. POP read. Parents freaked. For "purity sake" left shortly thereafter. Held true to the doctrine and the VP-worship and raised a son. If consistent with everything else, father may have started a window-washing business and so on. Son was raised flitting from school to school...and never had enough time to develop a long term relationship and so grew up to be only semi-literate. Raised with VP teachings and with the "rod of correction" (i.e., the wooden spoon), he had inquisitiveness beaten out of him from the early days (and so is unable to think critically or independently).
- Evidences of the above:
-- All of his posts are practically unreadable due to poor grammar
-- Demonstrated rhetorical skills are not any farther advanced than "Oh yeah" -- "My dad taught me the truth"
-- Virulent anti-Catholicism, but no logic or facts included with that anti-Catholicism (anti-Catholicism is a mark of VP's teaching)
-- Links to sites advocating anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories (read "The Thirteenth Tribe" thread on this forum) -- uncritical in examining them...even when their flawed logic is pointed out...(in other words, those sites contain nothing out of the ordinary...just a recounting of facts -- i.e., the Illuminadi) (anti-Semitism and fear of the "grand conspiracy" are also marks of VP's teaching)
So, as for me, rather than advocating the provocateur or plant theories, I find it easier to simply analyze what's been written and understand it based on itself.
Credibility? Naw...But I also have no reason to believe that he doesn't believe his own words.
Come on, a kid who was raised by ex wafers would talk this way....He wouldn`t necessarily be correct on the vernacular back then....or the programs....and the details would be be vague.
Yeah, I know, his Dad was not posting ...but the rest of his posts makes sense from the pov of a zealous young man fiercly loyal to his parents and the doctrine that they raised him with. Then again, maybe he is a current wafer` kid...
He sounds young and committed to current twi doctrine....
ckmkeon, there is much to be learned here. I hope that you will educate yourself as to the true nature and foundation of the ministry and teachers on which you intend to base your understanding of truth.
Your parents, as good a folks as they appear to be....were decieved by a very clever, very personable individual.
He was unworthey of the trust and respect that they invested.
Anything said by anybody on a board should be taken with a very serious grain of salt.
this i have proven to myself that it is not true and have with words from these threads experienced 1st hand, the power of such words that i needed to hear at the time, and has done a work that only could be done with truth and honesty and love from the people and person involved
Come on, a kid who was raised by ex wafers would talk this way....He wouldn`t necessarily be correct on the vernacular back then....or the programs....and the details would be be vague.
Sorry. I don't agree. I've known many children of former Wayfers and while they might have some sense of loyalty to the TWI based on their parents' loyalty, I typically don't find them on these forums taking a stand for VPW. Obviously it could happen but even then they usually demonstrate more awareness of TWI lingo.
this i have proven to myself that it is not true and have with words from these threads experienced 1st hand, the power of such words that i needed to hear at the time, and has done a work that only could be done with truth and honesty and love from the people and person involved
Come on, a kid who was raised by ex wafers would talk this way....He wouldn`t necessarily be correct on the vernacular back then....or the programs....and the details would be be vague.
Yeah, I know, his Dad was not posting ...but the rest of his posts makes sense from the pov of a zealous young man fiercly loyal to his parents and the doctrine that they raised him with.
rascal......I agree with you on the points stated above.
A couple of weeks ago, I was visiting with a college girl whose parents are ex-wafers and corps grads. In our conversation regarding the early days and the corps program.....she didn't really seem to connect the dots of it all.
Same goes for ck, I think. Heck, 1985 was 21 years ago........ :)
Didn't I read somewhere in this thread or another one, that ck was 19 years old..?? If so, then he was born during twi's infamous "fog years".......and certainly, if his parents split from twi somewhere in this time frame, little ck might possibly be raised as a little wierwillite having no concepts of twi experience or the vernacular back then.
Whatever.....it just sounds like he's a spunky kid like I used to be.
Agreed Sky rider....He reminds me of us 20 years ago.
There wasn`t anything that you could have told me that would have changed my pov. I would have defended twi and wierwille to the death.
That is why I use the term naieve ......
It took some of us twenty years to find out who/what wierwille and twi was beyond the glitzy public persona....
When the legalism creeps in, when the intrusion and control becomes untenable.....maybe ckmkeon will remember us and reconsider our points and veracity.
i respect your opinion but I disagree. VPW DID have some great characteristics, and he was a great teacher. I'm glad you have made something positive out of your TWI experiance. I'm also glad you didn't have to deal with LCM.
Many people on here had different experiances with VPW. I also respect thier opinions.
I only remember positive things about vpw, and lcm. But i found out the truth about lcm. LCM was always very nice to me, he was a great guy to hang around, I miss him as a friend. But i know the things he did were evil.
Its so tough because i love god so much, and to see the people that taught me so much be exposed for being evil really hurt my heart.
I'm sure that your folks know 'VP' as a good person and had a lot of respect for him.
'BUT' VP had 2 basic sides. The first one was the 3 piece suit and tie person who could charm the socks off a mouse if he wanted to, if mice had and could wear socks.
The other side was the man inside the 3 piece suit and tie was a whole different ballgame to those that knew that side of him, quite a few people here know that side and could tell you volumes if they wanted to from experience.
Your folks probably saw the 3 piece suit and tie side of VPW and wern't around him when the other side of the coin was showing.
People that i've talked to have told of a person that in private quarters VP was an entirely different person than when he was in the public view.
So the question is "whom" to belive? Your folks probably saw the side of VP that VP wanted them to see and not what the real person was like in his minute by minute life.
Anything said by anybody on a board should be taken with a very serious grain of salt. Taking anybody's word for anything without independent verification (and then validation of the independent source) is, again, imho, not a wise move.
Why? Because somebody can be seen as "speaking honestly from the heart" but could be also be consistently crafting a well-constructed tale. Not to sound suspicious and <b>certainly</b> not to accuse somebody here of that at all, but a person is foolish if he doesn't keep that in the back of his mind.
Again, imho and ymmv.
And I realize that many on gsc know each other personally (unlike most message boards), but with the exception of very, very, very few here, that's not the case with me. My complete knowledge of the vast majority of folks is from the electromagnetic residue they leave on the hard disks of the server farm contracted to host this site. Thus I don't assume honesty or automatically reject an assumption of honesty. All I can do is take somebody at his word. If his words are consistent then I can say he is consistent. If his words line up with independently verifiable reality, then I can say that he is either experienced or has done his homework.
So if a person says he graduated from the Way in 1985, who am I to doubt his word? And if he said he graduated from Family XX in 1985, who am I to doubt his word? On the other hand, why should I take him at his word? All I can do is say that his posts are consistent (or not), that his story lines up with other stories I've seen (or not), or that his story is consistent with independently-verifiable reality (or not). But to beleive (or disbelieve)? That's a different story altogether.
You suggested earlier that he might be a troll or a plant. Based upon my experience, I would reject a plant, because a plant would likely be more cautious to ensure his story was consistent with others. A troll? That, frankly, seems more likely to me, but still rather unlikely. Taking him at his word seems to be the most likely.
Consider this: Parents graduated from WC or College Program in mid 80s. Worshipped the ground VP walked on. VP died. POP read. Parents freaked. For "purity sake" left shortly thereafter. Held true to the doctrine and the VP-worship and raised a son. If consistent with everything else, father may have started a window-washing business and so on. Son was raised flitting from school to school...and never had enough time to develop a long term relationship and so grew up to be only semi-literate. Raised with VP teachings and with the "rod of correction" (i.e., the wooden spoon), he had inquisitiveness beaten out of him from the early days (and so is unable to think critically or independently).
- Evidences of the above:
-- All of his posts are practically unreadable due to poor grammar
-- Demonstrated rhetorical skills are not any farther advanced than "Oh yeah" -- "My dad taught me the truth"
-- Virulent anti-Catholicism, but no logic or facts included with that anti-Catholicism (anti-Catholicism is a mark of VP's teaching)
-- Links to sites advocating anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories (read "The Thirteenth Tribe" thread on this forum) -- uncritical in examining them...even when their flawed logic is pointed out...(in other words, those sites contain nothing out of the ordinary...just a recounting of facts -- i.e., the Illuminadi) (anti-Semitism and fear of the "grand conspiracy" are also marks of VP's teaching)
So, as for me, rather than advocating the provocateur or plant theories, I find it easier to simply analyze what's been written and understand it based on itself.
Credibility? Naw...But I also have no reason to believe that he doesn't believe his own words.
Thanks Mark...well said...bless your mackeral-snapping heart ;)
Edited by Oakspear
Many of us feel bad ckmkeon, because we see ourselves in you.
Young, idealistic, valiant for the truth, laying it all on the line for God. We experienced our youth and vitality taken and used by unscrupulous men who claimed to represent God`s will. ...our trusting hearts vilely betrayed.
You blindly support the people that were in charge of twi .... the leaders that abused us.
They are unworthey of your defense, of your respect.....they took the fruits of our honest labor and used it to fill their bellies.
You are embarked in what you believe is a noble cause.... They depended on youth and exhuberance ... it is what they hide behind ....just like they did us....YOU, like us at one time .... are who the public, the new people will see your integrety and honor .... it will give legitimacy to a flawed doctrine....
I am sad that unbeknownst to you....your good intentions and pure heart are being used to promote an organization and doctrine headed by evil people :(
Many of us feel bad ckmkeon, because we see ourselves in you.
Young, idealistic, valiant for the truth, laying it all on the line for God. We experienced our youth and vitality taken and used by unscrupulous men who claimed to represent God`s will. ...our trusting hearts vilely betrayed.
You blindly support the people that were in charge of twi .... the leaders that abused us.
They are unworthey of your defense, of your respect.....they took the fruits of our honest labor and used it to fill their bellies.
You are embarked in what you believe is a noble cause.... They depended on youth and exhuberance ... it is what they hide behind ....just like they did us....YOU, like us at one time .... are who the public, the new people will see your integrety and honor .... it will give legitimacy to a flawed doctrine....
I am sad that unbeknownst to you....your good intentions and pure heart are being used to promote an organization and doctrine headed by evil people :(
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CM
a troll? i don't know....
perhaps a plant by twi
you see how he's or she's not giving too much info at all
and skipping over some direct questions-no matter
regardless - the ear is hearing some things
wether or not they register is another thing
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Oakspear
Or maybe daddy "Ken" wasn't posting at all.
Would someone who who graduated from the Way Corps in 1985 say that 'I went to the Way and graduated in 1985'?
The little credibility that ckmkeon had has vanished.
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markomalley
A person on a message board has credibility?
I figure that a person can either respond, for fun, or not feed the troll...but as long as he doesn't violate the forum rules, fantasyland or a twisted version of reality is his business and his business alone.
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CM
Yes Mark, it happens. Sometimes one can see that a person stays true to their word and speaks honestly from the heart. Don't know if ck is or not but whoever this person is hasn't shown much of anything in my opinion. And people change too, seen that here at gsc.
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Oakspear
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diazbro
"fired by The Way" ? Who talks like that ? I've never heard ANYONE involved with TWI ever use this terminology. And worse its "everyone that got fired by The Way" as if all those who ever were M&Aed or left under less than ideal cicrcumstances is now here at Gspot ? This post has troll written all over it. Seems both CK and "Ken" share near identical writing patterns....
This reminds me that back on Waydale there was a poster there whom I firmly believe to have been a troll who had no practical experience with TWI based on the odd way that he or she would phrase things. Its like they had been reading the various posts and sought to construct some type of Way identity based on the experiences of others. Anyway, this person posted fairly standard stuff but then got very defensive about PFAL and VPW. So once the discussion got very detailed this person started screwing up details very badly even making some massive blunders such as having LCM's WAP class predating PFAL. Of course that was very telling but the poster claimed he had just transposed the two by accident. But there were other blunders that busted him/her like confusing the WOW and Corps programs. After a few confrontations on this they left or at least returned to lurk mode.
Edited by diazbroLink to comment
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markomalley
Clay, I would call that consistency. Seriously.
Anything said by anybody on a board should be taken with a very serious grain of salt. Taking anybody's word for anything without independent verification (and then validation of the independent source) is, again, imho, not a wise move.
Why? Because somebody can be seen as "speaking honestly from the heart" but could be also be consistently crafting a well-constructed tale. Not to sound suspicious and certainly not to accuse somebody here of that at all, but a person is foolish if he doesn't keep that in the back of his mind.
Again, imho and ymmv.
And I realize that many on gsc know each other personally (unlike most message boards), but with the exception of very, very, very few here, that's not the case with me. My complete knowledge of the vast majority of folks is from the electromagnetic residue they leave on the hard disks of the server farm contracted to host this site. Thus I don't assume honesty or automatically reject an assumption of honesty. All I can do is take somebody at his word. If his words are consistent then I can say he is consistent. If his words line up with independently verifiable reality, then I can say that he is either experienced or has done his homework.
So if a person says he graduated from the Way in 1985, who am I to doubt his word? And if he said he graduated from Family XX in 1985, who am I to doubt his word? On the other hand, why should I take him at his word? All I can do is say that his posts are consistent (or not), that his story lines up with other stories I've seen (or not), or that his story is consistent with independently-verifiable reality (or not). But to beleive (or disbelieve)? That's a different story altogether.
You suggested earlier that he might be a troll or a plant. Based upon my experience, I would reject a plant, because a plant would likely be more cautious to ensure his story was consistent with others. A troll? That, frankly, seems more likely to me, but still rather unlikely. Taking him at his word seems to be the most likely.
Consider this: Parents graduated from WC or College Program in mid 80s. Worshipped the ground VP walked on. VP died. POP read. Parents freaked. For "purity sake" left shortly thereafter. Held true to the doctrine and the VP-worship and raised a son. If consistent with everything else, father may have started a window-washing business and so on. Son was raised flitting from school to school...and never had enough time to develop a long term relationship and so grew up to be only semi-literate. Raised with VP teachings and with the "rod of correction" (i.e., the wooden spoon), he had inquisitiveness beaten out of him from the early days (and so is unable to think critically or independently).
- Evidences of the above:
-- All of his posts are practically unreadable due to poor grammar
-- Demonstrated rhetorical skills are not any farther advanced than "Oh yeah" -- "My dad taught me the truth"
-- Virulent anti-Catholicism, but no logic or facts included with that anti-Catholicism (anti-Catholicism is a mark of VP's teaching)
-- Links to sites advocating anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories (read "The Thirteenth Tribe" thread on this forum) -- uncritical in examining them...even when their flawed logic is pointed out...(in other words, those sites contain nothing out of the ordinary...just a recounting of facts -- i.e., the Illuminadi) (anti-Semitism and fear of the "grand conspiracy" are also marks of VP's teaching)
So, as for me, rather than advocating the provocateur or plant theories, I find it easier to simply analyze what's been written and understand it based on itself.
Credibility? Naw...But I also have no reason to believe that he doesn't believe his own words.
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rascal
Come on, a kid who was raised by ex wafers would talk this way....He wouldn`t necessarily be correct on the vernacular back then....or the programs....and the details would be be vague.
Yeah, I know, his Dad was not posting ...but the rest of his posts makes sense from the pov of a zealous young man fiercly loyal to his parents and the doctrine that they raised him with. Then again, maybe he is a current wafer` kid...
He sounds young and committed to current twi doctrine....
ckmkeon, there is much to be learned here. I hope that you will educate yourself as to the true nature and foundation of the ministry and teachers on which you intend to base your understanding of truth.
Your parents, as good a folks as they appear to be....were decieved by a very clever, very personable individual.
He was unworthey of the trust and respect that they invested.
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CM
Mark your post has some good points.
but
this i have proven to myself that it is not true and have with words from these threads experienced 1st hand, the power of such words that i needed to hear at the time, and has done a work that only could be done with truth and honesty and love from the people and person involved
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diazbro
Sorry. I don't agree. I've known many children of former Wayfers and while they might have some sense of loyalty to the TWI based on their parents' loyalty, I typically don't find them on these forums taking a stand for VPW. Obviously it could happen but even then they usually demonstrate more awareness of TWI lingo.
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markomalley
Clay,
I understand what you're saying.
But, as I said in that post:
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oldiesman
ckmkeon,
With a few exceptions, I'm in agreement with you.
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Tom Strange
hey ckmkeon... we'd really love it if "your parents" would also register and come on board to chat with us...
perhaps they'll be able to hook up with some old friends here...
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skyrider
rascal......I agree with you on the points stated above.
A couple of weeks ago, I was visiting with a college girl whose parents are ex-wafers and corps grads. In our conversation regarding the early days and the corps program.....she didn't really seem to connect the dots of it all.
Same goes for ck, I think. Heck, 1985 was 21 years ago........ :)
Didn't I read somewhere in this thread or another one, that ck was 19 years old..?? If so, then he was born during twi's infamous "fog years".......and certainly, if his parents split from twi somewhere in this time frame, little ck might possibly be raised as a little wierwillite having no concepts of twi experience or the vernacular back then.
Whatever.....it just sounds like he's a spunky kid like I used to be.
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rascal
Agreed Sky rider....He reminds me of us 20 years ago.
There wasn`t anything that you could have told me that would have changed my pov. I would have defended twi and wierwille to the death.
That is why I use the term naieve ......
It took some of us twenty years to find out who/what wierwille and twi was beyond the glitzy public persona....
When the legalism creeps in, when the intrusion and control becomes untenable.....maybe ckmkeon will remember us and reconsider our points and veracity.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i almost feel sorry for ck
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nandon
CK and Ken,
i respect your opinion but I disagree. VPW DID have some great characteristics, and he was a great teacher. I'm glad you have made something positive out of your TWI experiance. I'm also glad you didn't have to deal with LCM.
Many people on here had different experiances with VPW. I also respect thier opinions.
I only remember positive things about vpw, and lcm. But i found out the truth about lcm. LCM was always very nice to me, he was a great guy to hang around, I miss him as a friend. But i know the things he did were evil.
Its so tough because i love god so much, and to see the people that taught me so much be exposed for being evil really hurt my heart.
just a couple of thoughts i had,
take care guys, and good luck.
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danteh1
ck
I'm sure that your folks know 'VP' as a good person and had a lot of respect for him.
'BUT' VP had 2 basic sides. The first one was the 3 piece suit and tie person who could charm the socks off a mouse if he wanted to, if mice had and could wear socks.
The other side was the man inside the 3 piece suit and tie was a whole different ballgame to those that knew that side of him, quite a few people here know that side and could tell you volumes if they wanted to from experience.
Your folks probably saw the 3 piece suit and tie side of VPW and wern't around him when the other side of the coin was showing.
People that i've talked to have told of a person that in private quarters VP was an entirely different person than when he was in the public view.
So the question is "whom" to belive? Your folks probably saw the side of VP that VP wanted them to see and not what the real person was like in his minute by minute life.
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Oakspear
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CM
consistency in what though?
does it allow for change?
a life is like a song with different beats and melodies and rhythms
highs and lows and changes in tune
have an ear for the music of the soul
even our own
not that i got it down
but i just don't think
it's all black and white but many colors
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ckmkeon
ck
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rascal
Many of us feel bad ckmkeon, because we see ourselves in you.
Young, idealistic, valiant for the truth, laying it all on the line for God. We experienced our youth and vitality taken and used by unscrupulous men who claimed to represent God`s will. ...our trusting hearts vilely betrayed.
You blindly support the people that were in charge of twi .... the leaders that abused us.
They are unworthey of your defense, of your respect.....they took the fruits of our honest labor and used it to fill their bellies.
You are embarked in what you believe is a noble cause.... They depended on youth and exhuberance ... it is what they hide behind ....just like they did us....YOU, like us at one time .... are who the public, the new people will see your integrety and honor .... it will give legitimacy to a flawed doctrine....
I am sad that unbeknownst to you....your good intentions and pure heart are being used to promote an organization and doctrine headed by evil people :(
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Tom Strange
Nicely put Cathy... CK these folks are not fighting against you, they're fighting for you...
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ckmkeon
I almost got a tear..... almost
ck
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