To me what Belle is really saying is.." please moderator, I know I'm whingeing again but someone has again said something that I don't like, can you ban them from posting. I can only handle insults and personal attacks when it's me spewing 'em."
Good on you Oldies and others who speak their mind (regardless whether I or anyone else agrees with what is posted).
Sheese Allan........................Want me to dog you around for awhile and jump on everything you say and I mean everything.
To me what Belle is really saying is.." please moderator, I know I'm whingeing again but someone has again said something that I don't like, can you ban them from posting. I can only handle insults and personal attacks when it's me spewing 'em."
you think this is abuse? me posting an opinion? goodness gracious
Thinking someone is wrong is your opnion. Calling someone a liar is your opinion as well. It is also a personal attack. You do not always have the right to post your opinion on this board. I asked you once. You have not stopped. Now I report you. Very simple.
For future reference, it is possible to state an opposing opinion regarding what someone else has said without calling them a liar.
To me what Belle is really saying is.." please moderator, I know I'm whingeing again but someone has again said something that I don't like, can you ban them from posting. I can only handle insults and personal attacks when it's me spewing 'em."
Actually that is not what she is saying. Anyone with a little love in their heart, say someone who claims to be a Christian, would treat what rascal has been talking about a little more delicately, regardless of whether they agree or not.
No one is allowed to post personal attacks on this board. Read the rules. If someone does (I have been guilty
of it before) then an offended party is asked to inform a moderator. That is how it works. Don't like when it is you on the butt end? Report it. When all else fails "do unto others as you would have them to unto you."
Now if we could please return to the topic and reasonable discourse.
Okay. What Oldiesman has said to Rascal is harsh. There is no question about it. But, why can Rascal accuse someone else of "forcing her to commit the murder of her baby", when she herself by her freedom of will signed the papers to allow it? That is a very heavy accusation! It's harsh! Why is this accusation not worse or at least on par with what Oldiesman has said? Just curious...
Oh sorry Lindy. You either posted your "let's return to the topic admonishment" while I was writing my previous post, or I accidentally skipped it. Sorry. I think my question is valid though.
And so. I think God, in His wonderful Word, has axed us all for a lifetime comittment to the Ministry Of Reconciliation through the preaching of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And a very large percentage of us here thought of TWI as just that, THE Min. Of Rec. And so, when I went into the Corps, my comittment to a Lifetime of Christian Service was to be through The Way. When it became evident that the Word of God had nothing to do with The Way anymore, because of my lifetime comittment to God and His Word, "I had to go". And of course, I was totally trashed for for doing that by many of those who post here who "took a stand" with TWI for the next fifteen years. But, c'est la ie! What will be will be, and what was, was.
Bottom line is, I knew that it was a lifetime comittment, and I really don't think it was a purposeful "bait and switch". I think it evolved into that though, simply because the "product" changed so drastically from the time I first got involved until the time I checked out. It went from Love to Legalism you see, and I wasn't going to allow anyone to coerce me into doing any thing I didn't believe was right, for I have always believed that my freedom of will was/is a precious God Given right...
You are constantly playing the finger-pointing, helpless victim.
Regarding calling you a liar ... when I disagree with your post I am entitled to say so, and why.
Oldiesman,
I will always defend your right to disagree. Calling her a liar is NOT disagreeing that is an accusation as is calling her a victim. You don't know the circumstances. And you surely are not judge and jury. So feel free to disagree, but stop with the baseless accusations.
There is no question about it. But, why can Rascal accuse someone else of "forcing her to commit the murder of her baby", when she herself by her freedom of will signed the papers to allow it? That is a very heavy accusation! It's harsh! Why is this accusation not worse or at least on par with what Oldiesman has said? Just curious...
Johnny,
She was making accusations at an institution that is free to come on here and give a differing viewpoint. Oldies was making an accusation at another poster which is outside the parameters set for this forum.
And so, all of you ex-clergy people, what are you going to do with your emblematic seal/symbol of a lifetime comittment even bigger than the Corps comittment? Give it back? Or keep it for your family? Or burn it...
No that is fine JL, I think it can be brought back around to the topic.
I think you answered your question with the following post.
For starters though:
Okay. What Oldiesman has said to Rascal is harsh. There is no question about it. But, why can Rascal accuse someone else of "forcing her to commit the murder of her baby", when she herself by her freedom of will signed the papers to allow it? That is a very heavy accusation! It's harsh! Why is this accusation not worse or at least on par with what Oldiesman has said? Just curious...
No one forced her to commit the murder of her baby. She has not claimed this. They, THE ministry, and THE man of God, pressured her, a totally believing wayfer, to abort her baby becuase her commitment to the ministry with a God mask on was more important to them than the birth of a baby she wanted to have. She wrote them saying she could not go through with the program....so she wanted and was intending to have the baby. They pressured her and convinced her to do otherwise. Did she have a choice. To a degree, yes. In her own words....
Sadly, I am ashamed to say that I was a good doulos....I aquiessed to what the lc said that my responsibility to God was...I remained in good standing with God and the ministry that was teaching hios word
No it certainly didn`t FEEL like much of a *choice* when the alternative is being outside of God`s will and ability to protect you because of a broken promise....a lie
Maybe it is a little more personal and emotional when it is YOU who are lying on that table preparing to have your child destroyed ... while you desperatly run scripture retemories through your mind so that you can`t hear your inner self screaming .....so that you cannot think about what is about to happen and get tricked by satan..... and *chicken out* again....
f
That brings tears to my eyes. For some, something to attack.
When I attempted to withdraw during my 2nd app year .... due to an unplanned pregnancy.....I dutifully sent a letter explaining my change of plans into the corpes coordinator...
THAT is when you recieve vitriolic letters from craig...the head of God`s ministry himself..... that threaten you with the consequences of breaking a commitment to God.
THAT is when you are accused of being a liar to God.......and are threatened with the consequences of lying.......Annanias and Saphira anybody?
THAT is when the teeth come out and the pressure is applied
Nothing about forcing, but pressuring from the people she reveered the most.
In contrast to personal first hand experience, here are Oldie's replies:
Balderdash.
In your dreams.
Rascal
I am not making this sh1t UP..
Oldies
Yes you are.
"the consequences of not completeing the training."
It is just simply ludicrous for you to stress that God's hand of blessing and protection would leave someone if they dropped out of the corps.
It is utter nonsense and fiction.
Here in addition to implying she is lieing he confuses what she is stressing and what twi leaders (LCM) were stressing. I believe there is more but hopefully you get the idea.
As you said,
And so. I think God, in His wonderful Word, has axed us all for a lifetime comittment to the Ministry Of Reconciliation through the preaching of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.And a very large percentage of us here thought of TWI as just that, THE Min. Of Rec.
This is the a point many have been missing here. If that is what you thought, then your choices became limited without totally changing what you believed. That as we all know is not an easy thing to do, just look at Oldies. It is even harder when faced with a difficult situation as Rascal was.
Bottom line is, I knew that it was a lifetime comittment, and I really don't think it was a purposeful "bait and switch". I think it evolved into that though, simply because the "product" changed so drastically from the time I first got involved until the time I checked out. It went from Love to Legalism you see, and I wasn't going to allow anyone to coerce me into doing any thing I didn't believe was right, for I have always believed that my freedom of will was/is a precious God Given right...
OK. We are all different people and we all stayed in for different amounts of time and for different reasons. People still stay in for perhaps even different reasons
Recap-
"And a very large percentage of us here thought of TWI as just that, THE Min. Of Rec. "
This is the a point many have been missing here. If that is what you thought, then your choices became limited without totally changing what you believed. That as we all know is not an easy thing to do, just look at Oldies. It is even harder when faced with a difficult situation as Rascal was.
and I wasn't going to allow anyone to coerce me into doing any thing I didn't believe was right, for I have always believed that my freedom of will was/is a precious God Given right....
And so, my wife and I simply checked out...
Sounds to me like you changed your belief that twi was the Min. Of Rec. No?
I think the last thing I wanted to comment on was about 4 pages ago...
Shortfuse, you compared the commitment of staying corps for life to the commitment of marriage.
I think the comparison falls short a little.
A marriage is a commitment between two people
The corps is a one sided commitment of, as it turns out, a lifetime of submiting to the leaders of twi.
A marriage has the perhaps unexpercted ups and downs, the shouting and sweet nothings, total joy and anger, arguments and of course COMPROMISE. It is a two way street with heartfelt discussion, disagreement and working things out, if you are commited to it.
For the corps and most people in twi, if you are commited, you submit and obey or you are out on your arse.
Sounds to me like you changed your belief that twi was the Min. Of Rec. No?
Oh, most definitely. I thought I had made that clear. At one time I believed that it was, but only a part of the overall big picture. Even then I believed that the Gideons, and all kinds of Christians around the world were and are a part of the Ministry Of Reconciliation. But I also believed as so many of us did, that The Way had the only source of the "Rightly Divided Word", which then therefore made TWI the most vital aspect of the overall Ministry. And, I always figured that if there were others out there which had the "rightly divided Word" as we did, that "the twain would meet".
Now though, I only believe that certain aspects of TWI were accurate when it comes to the scriptures. I do believe that it was where God wanted me to be at that time though. Personally, I do not buy in to the "The Way was evil from it's inception" theory: That VPW started it all as a sex farm/money farm. I simply believe that TWI went the way of all flesh. One can read record after record in the OT and the New where wonderful God fearing people went bad and chased after heinous whoredoms and idolatrous lifestyles, all of which hurt people no less or no worse than what we have seen in The Way today during our lifetime. Same thing with the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, the Jimmy Swaggerts, and on and on down the line...
I enjoy many Biblical truths that I found in The Way to still be things that are a tremendous blessing to me: "To whom it is written, punctuation is devoid of authority, Christ in you the hope of glory! The mystery of the One Body, God's gift of holy spirit to all and upon all who call upon him and believe, salvation by faith and that not through good works, God answers our prayers when we believe (Matt 21:22), we are righteous NOW (that's huge to me), And on and on and on.
Many will say, and have said, that these things were findable elsewhere, and not remarkable at all. That these truths were stolen. Well, all I have to say to that is that one night, as a young eighteen year old kid, in my despair, I got on my knees in the wheelhouse of the boat I worked on, and begged God to "send me a Christian person, "and I promise you Lord, I will go to their church or whatever". That very next day, a radiant gal who was a 1975/76 WOW Ambassador came to work on my cruise boat as a cocktail waitress. Within minutes, she was telling me about the Bible, and about our lord Jesus Christ. This is a miraculous answer to prayer that I will never deny, ever. I had also told God in that prayer that I would become involved in that Church or whatever "if He would send just someone". And He answered my prayer, and I kept my promise to Him. And if it was good enough for God to send me there, then it must have been okay for Him at that time. And so for me, it was The Way. WOW, Corps, and even ordination. But when it all turned so sour, it was time to go. When the gold mine goes dry, it's time to stake out a new claim. And so we left. Got kicked out actually, but really it was because of our refusal to answer LCM's ridiculous ans scripturally baseless ultimatum question of "With whom do you stand? Me or CG?" That's a paraphrase as you know, but the sum and substance of it...
My comittment remains the same though, but only to Him, and not through any organization. :)
First, my honest heartfelt thanks you to you folks for your defense on my behalf ... you are heros in my book.
Lindy, You are right....
The first teaching that I remember on the wow field was about obeying leadership unquestioningly.
The example was of peter walking on the water....while he obeyed Jesus (his leader) and stayed focused on him.... when he looked at the circumstances ...he sank.
It was emphasised that we should always obey our leaders no matter WHAT our 5 senses told us...that we would be blessed...even in the unlikely event that the leader was wrong...God would have to honor the commitment of our hearts.
Throw in the teachings about what happens when people didn`t obey their leadership/God ....yikes
Once the commitment to go corpes...to become a doulos (sp?) was made....you were expected to obey every *suggestion* that was uttered from leaderships mouth or you were deemed stiff necked...un meek...hard hearted.
The threat of being thrown out of the corpes ...held much fear because we were taught that to leave the protection offered by God`s household would mean possible posession...possible death and the loss of all of your accrued rewards.
Pretty scarey consequences for non compliance of a commitment that lasted for a life time.
And so. I think God, in His wonderful Word, has axed us all for a lifetime comittment to the Ministry Of Reconciliation through the preaching of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And a very large percentage of us here thought of TWI as just that, THE Min. Of Rec. And so, when I went into the Corps, my comittment to a Lifetime of Christian Service was to be through The Way....
I always looked at the ministry of reconciliation as a God-given right to all members in the Body of Christ..... not equating it with a designated man's ministry, ie. twi.
To me.....I simply looked at the way ministry as a highway on God's landscape, His earth. This highway, twi, facilitated our journey and all who desired to travel onward. But now, this highway......is a "low-way" filled with potholes, fallen trees, burned and trashed vehicles, and unmarked detours.
I have found a better highway......more like a SKYway.
So, Shorty, is it really your view that it is the "lifetime" part of the commitment that is the problem or is it perhaps the degree of submition and control over the one who commits that twi requires.
Marriage is a lifetime commitment. For most of us it is not exactly what we expected, and if we are truely committed "I didn't know it was going to be like THIS" is not a valid excuse for breaking that commitment.
In a marriage there are deal breakers...conditions in the contract so to speak. Do you feel there are situations where breaking the corps commitment becomes valid and what are they? Is the fact that the corps contract (is there one?) is so vague make your commitment unbreakable or should the vagueness be grounds for an easy exit if one feels mislead or misinformed? I would think the answer to the later is a simple yes.
...preparation for a lifetime of Christian service...
When I went in there was no Emporia, Rome City, Gunnison, or Tinny. No Corps Chalet, no church in New Bremen, house in Sidney, none of that. In fact, I don't think I was ever in the "Sidney House" while I was on staff through 1980. Never interested me.
All of these properties were able to be developed because of the work the Way members did and most of them were people who attended the Corps program.
When I went in I was interested in being part of something that was new and undeveloped. There was room to grow both individually and with the Way. PFAL on film was only a year old when I first saw it. Needless to say the future was bright with promise.
Not with greed. Wanting to build something and contribute to worthy goals isn't bad. Thinking you have something good, bible teaching, and offering that to people isn't bad. Wanting to be involved in helping other people isn't bad.
Preparation for a lifetime of service as it's being quoted here was never an ironclad committment to work for and/or with the Way forever when I went in. Sure, everyone that went in wanted to be involved in that, with the Way for the most part. That's why I wanted to go there - I chose the Way and they were glad to have people at that time at least.
There's no question that it got balled up pretty quick. And VPW was at the center of it. He wanted everyone to be committed to the Way, the place that "taught you the Word" as it hadn't been known, etc. etc. In a way he was like the party host from hell - you can go to the party, just don't try to leave early, or ever. It's the best party in the world, what's the matter with you, why would you ever want to go anywhere else? Sit down, have some more chips.
Navigating your own life and plans was a challenge. ex10th's experience isn't unique. Many people got caught up in the momentum of other people's plans and goals.
Where it gets sticky is that involvement in the Way became a point of doctrine. That things like -
being in fellowship and harmony with God
being blessed and happy in life
having a true more than abundant life, ie John 10:10
prospering financially
having health
having your prayers answered
having a sucssessful family life
in fact, all the things that the PFAL class advertised a knowledge of the bible in application would produce -
were contingent ALSO on staying in fellowship with the Way. If you left the Way's fellowship, later known as the "household" you'd lose or drastically reduce your odds of having the kind of life that you'd learned GOD provided, in PFAL teachings.
The idea of conflict wasn't built so much on the "committment" for a lifetime to the Way but rather on the greater committment to the person's faith. If that faith was taught as including these other things, like never leaving the Way or doing what someone tells you to do - you could end up in a bad situation. One starts to rely on the other. You WANT to do the right thing, you DON'T want to do bad things, and you ARE being told that such and such a thing is the "right" thing to do if you want to maintain your faith and fellowship with God.
For a group like the Way, where TEACHING is constant and all pervasive, that makes for a very volatile situation.
So the people who suffered the worst were the ones willing to give the most. If you really were excited about the bible, Christianity, spreading "the Word" in a way that would allow you to be closely involved in peoples lives and you chose to have the Corps training be your route to learning how to better do that - you got hit eventually with a big fat attitude - that if you sought to expand your resources and capacity outside of WayWorld, you would be treated differently, as less "committed", and ultimately less "blessed", basically a liability.
Many of the first corps groups were never "big" leaders in the Way, they weren't cut out for that and they didn't want to go that route in some cases. A lifetime of service so-called didn't mandate that you had to do that.
But it was very claustrophobic for us after awhile. I felt that indeed, some good preparation was had by the Corps training for the things I would do later in life.
But getting the preparation is pre-choice. Choices in life have to be made and change is inevitable.
I do know what a lifetime committment is though and how it shakes out. I've been married to the same woman for 35 years. When we made that vow to each other, it was for life.
My committment to the Way always had a qualification - I never would stick with them if I felt they were wrong in what they taught or did, if they left the values that I personally held or sought out goals different than mine. As the years rolled on those kinds of things started to stack up. We parted ways.
Way Corps committment is certainly a lifetime committment, not to the Way but to the goals I had. The "program" was me, my life, what I was choosing to do. For me the most valuable thing was always the people, those who I knew and worked with.
Some of the things I was trying to do then have been realized, some have changed, some dropped. The essence of what I was seeking then has changed and grown as I have too. I don't think that's abnormal or unnatural.
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justloafing
Sheese Allan........................Want me to dog you around for awhile and jump on everything you say and I mean everything.
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oldiesman
That's a good point Allan, thanks.
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justloafing
You boys show all the love that twi did. <_<
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lindyhopper
This is rediculous.
Thinking someone is wrong is your opnion. Calling someone a liar is your opinion as well. It is also a personal attack. You do not always have the right to post your opinion on this board. I asked you once. You have not stopped. Now I report you. Very simple.
For future reference, it is possible to state an opposing opinion regarding what someone else has said without calling them a liar.
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Belle
Well, now that this thread is totally derailed. I'll bow out completely. I apologize, Lindy.
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oldiesman
Cretins and Arabians, I think I'll do some speaking in tongues. :)
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lindyhopper
Actually that is not what she is saying. Anyone with a little love in their heart, say someone who claims to be a Christian, would treat what rascal has been talking about a little more delicately, regardless of whether they agree or not.
No one is allowed to post personal attacks on this board. Read the rules. If someone does (I have been guilty
of it before) then an offended party is asked to inform a moderator. That is how it works. Don't like when it is you on the butt end? Report it. When all else fails "do unto others as you would have them to unto you."
Now if we could please return to the topic and reasonable discourse.
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J0nny Ling0
Can I as a question?
Okay. What Oldiesman has said to Rascal is harsh. There is no question about it. But, why can Rascal accuse someone else of "forcing her to commit the murder of her baby", when she herself by her freedom of will signed the papers to allow it? That is a very heavy accusation! It's harsh! Why is this accusation not worse or at least on par with what Oldiesman has said? Just curious...
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J0nny Ling0
Oh sorry Lindy. You either posted your "let's return to the topic admonishment" while I was writing my previous post, or I accidentally skipped it. Sorry. I think my question is valid though.
And so. I think God, in His wonderful Word, has axed us all for a lifetime comittment to the Ministry Of Reconciliation through the preaching of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And a very large percentage of us here thought of TWI as just that, THE Min. Of Rec. And so, when I went into the Corps, my comittment to a Lifetime of Christian Service was to be through The Way. When it became evident that the Word of God had nothing to do with The Way anymore, because of my lifetime comittment to God and His Word, "I had to go". And of course, I was totally trashed for for doing that by many of those who post here who "took a stand" with TWI for the next fifteen years. But, c'est la ie! What will be will be, and what was, was.
Bottom line is, I knew that it was a lifetime comittment, and I really don't think it was a purposeful "bait and switch". I think it evolved into that though, simply because the "product" changed so drastically from the time I first got involved until the time I checked out. It went from Love to Legalism you see, and I wasn't going to allow anyone to coerce me into doing any thing I didn't believe was right, for I have always believed that my freedom of will was/is a precious God Given right...
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pawtucket
I will always defend your right to disagree. Calling her a liar is NOT disagreeing that is an accusation as is calling her a victim. You don't know the circumstances. And you surely are not judge and jury. So feel free to disagree, but stop with the baseless accusations.
Johnny,
She was making accusations at an institution that is free to come on here and give a differing viewpoint. Oldies was making an accusation at another poster which is outside the parameters set for this forum.
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J0nny Ling0
Thank you for your response.
And so, all of you ex-clergy people, what are you going to do with your emblematic seal/symbol of a lifetime comittment even bigger than the Corps comittment? Give it back? Or keep it for your family? Or burn it...
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lindyhopper
No that is fine JL, I think it can be brought back around to the topic.
I think you answered your question with the following post.
For starters though:
No one forced her to commit the murder of her baby. She has not claimed this. They, THE ministry, and THE man of God, pressured her, a totally believing wayfer, to abort her baby becuase her commitment to the ministry with a God mask on was more important to them than the birth of a baby she wanted to have. She wrote them saying she could not go through with the program....so she wanted and was intending to have the baby. They pressured her and convinced her to do otherwise. Did she have a choice. To a degree, yes. In her own words....fThat brings tears to my eyes. For some, something to attack.
Nothing about forcing, but pressuring from the people she reveered the most.
In contrast to personal first hand experience, here are Oldie's replies:
Rascal
OldiesHere in addition to implying she is lieing he confuses what she is stressing and what twi leaders (LCM) were stressing. I believe there is more but hopefully you get the idea.
As you said,
This is the a point many have been missing here. If that is what you thought, then your choices became limited without totally changing what you believed. That as we all know is not an easy thing to do, just look at Oldies. It is even harder when faced with a difficult situation as Rascal was.
Thanks Paw, i guess I was posting as you were.
Now back to topic.
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J0nny Ling0
Thanks Lindy. And here is the rest of my quote;
And so, my wife and I simply checked out...
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lindyhopper
OK. We are all different people and we all stayed in for different amounts of time and for different reasons. People still stay in for perhaps even different reasons
Recap-
Sounds to me like you changed your belief that twi was the Min. Of Rec. No?
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Tom Strange
...or TWI changed from "THE ministry of reconciliation" to "THE ministry of fear and intimidation"...
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lindyhopper
I think the last thing I wanted to comment on was about 4 pages ago...
Shortfuse, you compared the commitment of staying corps for life to the commitment of marriage.
I think the comparison falls short a little.
A marriage is a commitment between two people
The corps is a one sided commitment of, as it turns out, a lifetime of submiting to the leaders of twi.
A marriage has the perhaps unexpercted ups and downs, the shouting and sweet nothings, total joy and anger, arguments and of course COMPROMISE. It is a two way street with heartfelt discussion, disagreement and working things out, if you are commited to it.
For the corps and most people in twi, if you are commited, you submit and obey or you are out on your arse.
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J0nny Ling0
Oh, most definitely. I thought I had made that clear. At one time I believed that it was, but only a part of the overall big picture. Even then I believed that the Gideons, and all kinds of Christians around the world were and are a part of the Ministry Of Reconciliation. But I also believed as so many of us did, that The Way had the only source of the "Rightly Divided Word", which then therefore made TWI the most vital aspect of the overall Ministry. And, I always figured that if there were others out there which had the "rightly divided Word" as we did, that "the twain would meet".
Now though, I only believe that certain aspects of TWI were accurate when it comes to the scriptures. I do believe that it was where God wanted me to be at that time though. Personally, I do not buy in to the "The Way was evil from it's inception" theory: That VPW started it all as a sex farm/money farm. I simply believe that TWI went the way of all flesh. One can read record after record in the OT and the New where wonderful God fearing people went bad and chased after heinous whoredoms and idolatrous lifestyles, all of which hurt people no less or no worse than what we have seen in The Way today during our lifetime. Same thing with the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, the Jimmy Swaggerts, and on and on down the line...
I enjoy many Biblical truths that I found in The Way to still be things that are a tremendous blessing to me: "To whom it is written, punctuation is devoid of authority, Christ in you the hope of glory! The mystery of the One Body, God's gift of holy spirit to all and upon all who call upon him and believe, salvation by faith and that not through good works, God answers our prayers when we believe (Matt 21:22), we are righteous NOW (that's huge to me), And on and on and on.
Many will say, and have said, that these things were findable elsewhere, and not remarkable at all. That these truths were stolen. Well, all I have to say to that is that one night, as a young eighteen year old kid, in my despair, I got on my knees in the wheelhouse of the boat I worked on, and begged God to "send me a Christian person, "and I promise you Lord, I will go to their church or whatever". That very next day, a radiant gal who was a 1975/76 WOW Ambassador came to work on my cruise boat as a cocktail waitress. Within minutes, she was telling me about the Bible, and about our lord Jesus Christ. This is a miraculous answer to prayer that I will never deny, ever. I had also told God in that prayer that I would become involved in that Church or whatever "if He would send just someone". And He answered my prayer, and I kept my promise to Him. And if it was good enough for God to send me there, then it must have been okay for Him at that time. And so for me, it was The Way. WOW, Corps, and even ordination. But when it all turned so sour, it was time to go. When the gold mine goes dry, it's time to stake out a new claim. And so we left. Got kicked out actually, but really it was because of our refusal to answer LCM's ridiculous ans scripturally baseless ultimatum question of "With whom do you stand? Me or CG?" That's a paraphrase as you know, but the sum and substance of it...
My comittment remains the same though, but only to Him, and not through any organization. :)
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shortfuse
hopper,
Comparison was with regard to lifetime commitments. Those are the only two I can think of.
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rascal
First, my honest heartfelt thanks you to you folks for your defense on my behalf ... you are heros in my book.
Lindy, You are right....
The first teaching that I remember on the wow field was about obeying leadership unquestioningly.
The example was of peter walking on the water....while he obeyed Jesus (his leader) and stayed focused on him.... when he looked at the circumstances ...he sank.
It was emphasised that we should always obey our leaders no matter WHAT our 5 senses told us...that we would be blessed...even in the unlikely event that the leader was wrong...God would have to honor the commitment of our hearts.
Throw in the teachings about what happens when people didn`t obey their leadership/God ....yikes
Once the commitment to go corpes...to become a doulos (sp?) was made....you were expected to obey every *suggestion* that was uttered from leaderships mouth or you were deemed stiff necked...un meek...hard hearted.
The threat of being thrown out of the corpes ...held much fear because we were taught that to leave the protection offered by God`s household would mean possible posession...possible death and the loss of all of your accrued rewards.
Pretty scarey consequences for non compliance of a commitment that lasted for a life time.
Certainly more than we bargained for.
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J0nny Ling0
I guess Oldies got thrown out?
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lindyhopper
No, he as just asked by Paw to play by the rules.
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skyrider
I always looked at the ministry of reconciliation as a God-given right to all members in the Body of Christ..... not equating it with a designated man's ministry, ie. twi.
To me.....I simply looked at the way ministry as a highway on God's landscape, His earth. This highway, twi, facilitated our journey and all who desired to travel onward. But now, this highway......is a "low-way" filled with potholes, fallen trees, burned and trashed vehicles, and unmarked detours.
I have found a better highway......more like a SKYway.
skyrider :)
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lindyhopper
So, Shorty, is it really your view that it is the "lifetime" part of the commitment that is the problem or is it perhaps the degree of submition and control over the one who commits that twi requires.
In a marriage there are deal breakers...conditions in the contract so to speak. Do you feel there are situations where breaking the corps commitment becomes valid and what are they? Is the fact that the corps contract (is there one?) is so vague make your commitment unbreakable or should the vagueness be grounds for an easy exit if one feels mislead or misinformed? I would think the answer to the later is a simple yes.
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socks
...preparation for a lifetime of Christian service...
When I went in there was no Emporia, Rome City, Gunnison, or Tinny. No Corps Chalet, no church in New Bremen, house in Sidney, none of that. In fact, I don't think I was ever in the "Sidney House" while I was on staff through 1980. Never interested me.
All of these properties were able to be developed because of the work the Way members did and most of them were people who attended the Corps program.
When I went in I was interested in being part of something that was new and undeveloped. There was room to grow both individually and with the Way. PFAL on film was only a year old when I first saw it. Needless to say the future was bright with promise.
Not with greed. Wanting to build something and contribute to worthy goals isn't bad. Thinking you have something good, bible teaching, and offering that to people isn't bad. Wanting to be involved in helping other people isn't bad.
Preparation for a lifetime of service as it's being quoted here was never an ironclad committment to work for and/or with the Way forever when I went in. Sure, everyone that went in wanted to be involved in that, with the Way for the most part. That's why I wanted to go there - I chose the Way and they were glad to have people at that time at least.
There's no question that it got balled up pretty quick. And VPW was at the center of it. He wanted everyone to be committed to the Way, the place that "taught you the Word" as it hadn't been known, etc. etc. In a way he was like the party host from hell - you can go to the party, just don't try to leave early, or ever. It's the best party in the world, what's the matter with you, why would you ever want to go anywhere else? Sit down, have some more chips.
Navigating your own life and plans was a challenge. ex10th's experience isn't unique. Many people got caught up in the momentum of other people's plans and goals.
Where it gets sticky is that involvement in the Way became a point of doctrine. That things like -
being in fellowship and harmony with God
being blessed and happy in life
having a true more than abundant life, ie John 10:10
prospering financially
having health
having your prayers answered
having a sucssessful family life
in fact, all the things that the PFAL class advertised a knowledge of the bible in application would produce -
were contingent ALSO on staying in fellowship with the Way. If you left the Way's fellowship, later known as the "household" you'd lose or drastically reduce your odds of having the kind of life that you'd learned GOD provided, in PFAL teachings.
The idea of conflict wasn't built so much on the "committment" for a lifetime to the Way but rather on the greater committment to the person's faith. If that faith was taught as including these other things, like never leaving the Way or doing what someone tells you to do - you could end up in a bad situation. One starts to rely on the other. You WANT to do the right thing, you DON'T want to do bad things, and you ARE being told that such and such a thing is the "right" thing to do if you want to maintain your faith and fellowship with God.
For a group like the Way, where TEACHING is constant and all pervasive, that makes for a very volatile situation.
So the people who suffered the worst were the ones willing to give the most. If you really were excited about the bible, Christianity, spreading "the Word" in a way that would allow you to be closely involved in peoples lives and you chose to have the Corps training be your route to learning how to better do that - you got hit eventually with a big fat attitude - that if you sought to expand your resources and capacity outside of WayWorld, you would be treated differently, as less "committed", and ultimately less "blessed", basically a liability.
Many of the first corps groups were never "big" leaders in the Way, they weren't cut out for that and they didn't want to go that route in some cases. A lifetime of service so-called didn't mandate that you had to do that.
But it was very claustrophobic for us after awhile. I felt that indeed, some good preparation was had by the Corps training for the things I would do later in life.
But getting the preparation is pre-choice. Choices in life have to be made and change is inevitable.
I do know what a lifetime committment is though and how it shakes out. I've been married to the same woman for 35 years. When we made that vow to each other, it was for life.
My committment to the Way always had a qualification - I never would stick with them if I felt they were wrong in what they taught or did, if they left the values that I personally held or sought out goals different than mine. As the years rolled on those kinds of things started to stack up. We parted ways.
Way Corps committment is certainly a lifetime committment, not to the Way but to the goals I had. The "program" was me, my life, what I was choosing to do. For me the most valuable thing was always the people, those who I knew and worked with.
Some of the things I was trying to do then have been realized, some have changed, some dropped. The essence of what I was seeking then has changed and grown as I have too. I don't think that's abnormal or unnatural.
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