Okay.... thanks for the info - that's what I thought... and that's what I remember being taught... 20+ years ago (been a while since I've thought about those teachings).
You say 'of course it's many gifts' - I still believe in one gift - many manifestations...
Maybe you can think of it as a toe-may-toe / toe-mah-toe thing.... :)
You say "gift"
I say "manifestations"
(doesn't work with the music...)
Allen - I remember being taught that tongues existed as a gift if you needed to understand/speak a foreign language. Like, "poof" - all of a sudden some hick from Maine can understand Mandarine Chinese... just when he needs to... (I thought it was a cool idea, but couldn't get any of the elders to say if they ever knew of it happening...)
Oops... isn't the thread about the manifestations, a'la VPW's teachings.... bad Chas!
It's just hyperbole. Wierwille never meant it literally. Some of his followers may have taken it literally, but that's their fault, not Wierwille's.
segment 34 of the Advanced Class is titled All Nine all Of The Tme.It covers the record in Acts 3: Silver and gold have I none.......... That is the record he used to show that all nine manifestations were in use during this healing.
In the opening from the transcript he states "In every situation where you minister,people,all-basically all nine manifestations have to be in operation within you,to minister effectually and to bring deliverance to God's people.
I read through the transcript quickly but it looks like he was saying there you need to have a knowledge of all nine and how to use them within you so that you would be ready for any situation. A lot on hit and miss ministering.
Sounds like he SAID it was literal.
"In EVERY situation" "all-basically all nine manifestations have to be in operation within you"
I remember being taught that tongues existed as a gift if you needed to understand/speak a foreign language. Like, "poof" - all of a sudden some hick from Maine can understand Mandarine Chinese... just when he needs to... (I thought it was a cool idea, but couldn't get any of the elders to say if they ever knew of it happening...)
Oops... isn't the thread about the manifestations, a'la VPW's teachings.... bad Chas!
Speaking of which, "THE Teacher" referred to those brothers
in Christ who made such comments as "IDIOTS"
in "THE Class."
"He's another one of those........idiots."
(The guy who didn't see the need for tongues for himself
because he didn't anticipate entering the mission fields.)
Your last diatribe at the end was quite revealing Mo !
Regarding tongues and the LDS, I'll be a little clearer.
They do not believe nor promote s.i.t. as an individual capability, for personal edification etc..but rather as a 'supernatural' event that happens (occasionally) on foreign mission fields.
Allen, Dear, the article wasn't written by me if you look closely you'll see I cited the reference -James A. Cullimore, "Gifts of the Spirit," Ensign, Nov. 1974, 27 the "diatribe" as you call it that you ascribe to me isn't mine it's from his article. Perhaps you need to hone your reading and comprehension skills so as to more intelligently participate in discussions
DMiller :)
as I remember the "logic"
Receiving the Holy Ghost is the Gift
and speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophecy, gifts of healing etc etc are the manifestations of receiving that gift
Hence since we have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we have all of the manifestations and can operate all of them. SIT being elevated to the manifestation that proves we have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
By making them manifestations he could support his allegation that it was "all nine all the time". That was a stock phrase--and you didn't have to be an AC grad to have it expounded, propounded, and just plain rammed down your throat at every available opportunity. Woe betide the poor "leaf" who had the temerity to suggest that the so called "manifestations" were in fact gifts in their own right and just perhaps we didn't all get all gifts.
At least that it is how it was in my neck of the woods
I have no problem with believing that there are those among us who could operate all nine in the appropriate situations, its the use TWI put it to that sticks in my craw. As with so much else in TWI, it was used to point out how inferior some believers were , while simultaneously elevating the propounding expounders to superior status with their self-proclaimed great ability to manifest said nine. <_<
If twi leadership "operated all 9 all the time", why didn't they see that twi was about to hit the wall harder than Mr. MaGoo playing Hai Alai?
I'll tell you why. Because what they taught was just pure BULL SHIRT. Another good example where they were so far off the Word. Another example that the top leasdership could not do it and blasted us when we did not.
Etymology: Latin diatriba, from Greek diatribE pastime, discourse, from diatribein to spend (time), wear away, from dia- + tribein to rub -- more at THROW
If twi leadership "operated all 9 all the time", why didn't they see that twi was about to hit the wall harder than Mr. MaGoo playing Hai Alai?
Hmmmmm......how to answer THAT..??
As the OT illustrates it.............twi's lamp has gone out. Of course, one could argue that the lamp NEVER got turned on.
Even in rivenbark's era, twi is being promoted as a "kinder, gentler ministry." Kinda sounds like a nursing home slogan........rather than group that proclaims to walk with all nine manifestations.
So lets see, we have a general authority of the LDS Church writing an article which is publishing in the LDS magazine, which is referenced not only at the official LDS church website, but BYU and LDS Seminary classes on other websites.
Just by reviewing these FACTS I feel I am on really solid ground in catagorically stating that this is what LDS believe.
Personally I don't give a Rodent's posterior if you hate LDS. But I do expect that you will at least do some basic research into what we actually believe before spouting off like a pimple on an adolescent's face
You need to show more respect for allan, who is an expert on all things that pertain to the LDS church. If allan says it's a Mormon belief, then it doesn't matter if the highest authorities in Mormonism say differently.
When I first read the (spiel) at the end I thought it was your statement, however, if thats what LDS believe then that is what you believe also..Thanks for (clarifying) your belief.
The (spiel) ranks of 'elitism', 'egotism', 'arrogance', 'ignorance,' 'error' etc.. UNLESS one happens to believe what is said.
Depending on ones beliefs, decides a 'peripheral' view on it.
All I wanted to do was draw attention to the FACT that although this forum is about ( primarily) the 'evils' of twi,(and much of it very true), there is from time to time very biased views of VP's teachings from some quarters and particularly from those who are as 'black' as the kettle themselves.
When I first read the (spiel) at the end I thought it was your statement, however, if thats what LDS believe then that is what you believe also..Thanks for (clarifying) your belief.
The (spiel) ranks of 'elitism', 'egotism', 'arrogance', 'ignorance,' 'error' etc.. UNLESS one happens to believe what is said.
Depending on ones beliefs, decides a 'peripheral' view on it.
All I wanted to do was draw attention to the FACT that although this forum is about ( primarily) the 'evils' of twi,(and much of it very true), there is from time to time very biased views of VP's teachings from some quarters and particularly from those who are as 'black' as the kettle themselves.
Well, give us your (LDS) DEFINITION of 'speaking in tongues, int. tongues, prophecy' and I (we) can decide if you and I are even talking about the same gifts/ manifestations. You seemed to be (avoiding) LDS DEFINITION of them ?
No.. they among others believe that tongues 'ceased' centuries ago and are not needed today.
Therefore they have a 'problem' sometimes because occasionally newly baptised mormons after receiving the 'new birth' speak in tongues ! However, they are quickly told to 'cease'.
HEY..my names not Mo !!!! (interested in hearing her version though)
Sounded like you already were an expert on their beliefs when you STARTED
on the subject, Allan. Why REMAIN on the subject once you've been
proven wrong already?
BTW,
feel free to start a NEW thread in Doctrinal exploring the different
Allen the LDS take their definitions from scripture
you obviously take yours from PFAL
There can never be common ground in that disparity
So I am done belaboring the point with you.
dmiller
I would hazard guess that you are speaking of the passage where the apostles preach and listeners hears what is being taught it in their own language.
I had a lady I know who served a mission in Russia tell of the time she and other missionaries were at a Russian families home. The family spoke English except for the grandmother who spoke and understood only Russian, specifically the dialect of her region. One of the missionaries apologized for the fact that they couldn't teach everything in Russian so the grandmother could understand. The father of the family said, "oh that is alright she understands everything" Surprised my friend and her companion asked what the grandmother thought of what was taught that night. The grandmother proceeded to explain what she had learned through her son--she had understood every word perfectly.
I have had another missionary who taught in a Spanish speaking country tell of getting up and finding himself bearing his testimony in Spanish even though his skill in the language should not have permitted it.
And I agree that we can speak in tongues when speaking to the spirit in our PRIVATE prayer life, I've had the experience.
As far as I'm concerned it is a twisting of scripture to say that the person speaking is the one who interprets. It was a smokescreen on VPW's part so that he and others could say what ever they wanted and claim it was from God.
Do I think that everyone in TWI was therefore faking, No, God is able to work with anyone who truly is in tune with Him. But that was IMO in spite of rather than because of VPW's teachings.
As for prophecy--can anyone name one prophecy of VPW 's that came true, prophecy being the means of knowing what will be when it would not be possible to know it by any other means
Where was I proven wrong WW ??- Mo has stated that she s.i.t. in her private prayer life and I'll pretty much guarentee that wasn't (acquired) in the LDS, in fact IF Mo is s.i.t. in her private prayer life I'd say she is 'going against the grain' of what her church believes !
So which is it MO, does LDS encourage s.i.t. in ones private prayer life or no ?
Do LDS believe rather that s.i.t. is for out on the mission field that as Chas said " hardly anyone had heard of happening" ?
1 Corinthians 14: 4,5 " I would that ye all s.i.t, but rather that ye prophesied. For greater is he that prophesieth than he that s.i.t. EXCEPT he interpret that the Church might be edified" -Apostle Paul.
No wonder Mike despairs sometimes !!!
We have a number of people in our ministry that were never involved in twi yet to hear them s.i.t. AND interpret etc.. with such pure hearts and believing gives 'goosebumps' that's for sure.
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ChasUFarley
Mo -
Okay.... thanks for the info - that's what I thought... and that's what I remember being taught... 20+ years ago (been a while since I've thought about those teachings).
You say 'of course it's many gifts' - I still believe in one gift - many manifestations...
Maybe you can think of it as a toe-may-toe / toe-mah-toe thing.... :)
You say "gift"
I say "manifestations"
(doesn't work with the music...)
Allen - I remember being taught that tongues existed as a gift if you needed to understand/speak a foreign language. Like, "poof" - all of a sudden some hick from Maine can understand Mandarine Chinese... just when he needs to... (I thought it was a cool idea, but couldn't get any of the elders to say if they ever knew of it happening...)
Oops... isn't the thread about the manifestations, a'la VPW's teachings.... bad Chas!
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WordWolf
Sounds like he SAID it was literal.
"In EVERY situation" "all-basically all nine manifestations have to be in operation within you"
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WordWolf
Speaking of which, "THE Teacher" referred to those brothers
in Christ who made such comments as "IDIOTS"
in "THE Class."
"He's another one of those........idiots."
(The guy who didn't see the need for tongues for himself
because he didn't anticipate entering the mission fields.)
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dmiller
I can't agree with this.
By *changing* them from *gifts* to *manifestations* (and the definition thereof)
is something that is *PI* on your part -- just my IMO.
.
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allan w.
Your last diatribe at the end was quite revealing Mo !
Regarding tongues and the LDS, I'll be a little clearer.
They do not believe nor promote s.i.t. as an individual capability, for personal edification etc..but rather as a 'supernatural' event that happens (occasionally) on foreign mission fields.
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dmiller
And let me clarify this ----
If I am given a gift, it behooves me to utilize it fully. That in NO way detracts from the giver.
But then again -- that is just IMO. :)
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templelady
Allen, Dear, the article wasn't written by me if you look closely you'll see I cited the reference -James A. Cullimore, "Gifts of the Spirit," Ensign, Nov. 1974, 27 the "diatribe" as you call it that you ascribe to me isn't mine it's from his article. Perhaps you need to hone your reading and comprehension skills so as to more intelligently participate in discussions
DMiller :)
as I remember the "logic"
Receiving the Holy Ghost is the Gift
and speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, prophecy, gifts of healing etc etc are the manifestations of receiving that gift
Hence since we have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we have all of the manifestations and can operate all of them. SIT being elevated to the manifestation that proves we have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
By making them manifestations he could support his allegation that it was "all nine all the time". That was a stock phrase--and you didn't have to be an AC grad to have it expounded, propounded, and just plain rammed down your throat at every available opportunity. Woe betide the poor "leaf" who had the temerity to suggest that the so called "manifestations" were in fact gifts in their own right and just perhaps we didn't all get all gifts.
At least that it is how it was in my neck of the woods
I have no problem with believing that there are those among us who could operate all nine in the appropriate situations, its the use TWI put it to that sticks in my craw. As with so much else in TWI, it was used to point out how inferior some believers were , while simultaneously elevating the propounding expounders to superior status with their self-proclaimed great ability to manifest said nine. <_<
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GrouchoMarxJr
If twi leadership "operated all 9 all the time", why didn't they see that twi was about to hit the wall harder than Mr. MaGoo playing Hai Alai?
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justloafing
I'll tell you why. Because what they taught was just pure BULL SHIRT. Another good example where they were so far off the Word. Another example that the top leasdership could not do it and blasted us when we did not.
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Oakspear
Main Entry: di·a·tribe
Pronunciation: 'dI-&-"trIb
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin diatriba, from Greek diatribE pastime, discourse, from diatribein to spend (time), wear away, from dia- + tribein to rub -- more at THROW
1 archaic : a prolonged discourse
2 : a bitter and abusive speech or writing
3 : ironical or satirical criticism
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skyrider
Hmmmmm......how to answer THAT..??
As the OT illustrates it.............twi's lamp has gone out. Of course, one could argue that the lamp NEVER got turned on.
Even in rivenbark's era, twi is being promoted as a "kinder, gentler ministry." Kinda sounds like a nursing home slogan........rather than group that proclaims to walk with all nine manifestations.
<_<
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allan w.
Sorry 'bout that Mo...that fella James Cullimore wasn't a Mormon then I presume..if that's what he believed.?
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templelady
Allen, I am not by nature a terribly patient person, you are straining the last bit I have.
If you were paying attention to what you read you would have noticed that the article was in the ENSIGN
If you knew as much about LDS as you claim, you would know that the Ensign is the official LDS monthly magazine
As simple Google check of James A Cullimore would have led you to this link
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/w/o/wol3/cullija1.htm where you would not only have found out that he was LDS but a leader in the Church
A google on the entire article would have led to this page http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...v%2e+1974%2c+27+
Which cites numerous LDS references
I myself found the article at www.lds.org
So lets see, we have a general authority of the LDS Church writing an article which is publishing in the LDS magazine, which is referenced not only at the official LDS church website, but BYU and LDS Seminary classes on other websites.
Just by reviewing these FACTS I feel I am on really solid ground in catagorically stating that this is what LDS believe.
Personally I don't give a Rodent's posterior if you hate LDS. But I do expect that you will at least do some basic research into what we actually believe before spouting off like a pimple on an adolescent's face
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Oakspear
templelady:
You need to show more respect for allan, who is an expert on all things that pertain to the LDS church. If allan says it's a Mormon belief, then it doesn't matter if the highest authorities in Mormonism say differently.
Get with the program, why doncha?
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templelady
I can't, my cat used it for a scratching post
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allan w.
When I first read the (spiel) at the end I thought it was your statement, however, if thats what LDS believe then that is what you believe also..Thanks for (clarifying) your belief.
The (spiel) ranks of 'elitism', 'egotism', 'arrogance', 'ignorance,' 'error' etc.. UNLESS one happens to believe what is said.
Depending on ones beliefs, decides a 'peripheral' view on it.
All I wanted to do was draw attention to the FACT that although this forum is about ( primarily) the 'evils' of twi,(and much of it very true), there is from time to time very biased views of VP's teachings from some quarters and particularly from those who are as 'black' as the kettle themselves.
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Tom Strange
Well...
Kettle, meet Mr. Pot... Pot, meet Mr. Kettle...
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templelady
So let me get this straight
First you bash the LDS for not believing that the Gifts/manifestations are present in the church today
And then when it is proved that LDS do believe that the Gifts/manifestations are present in the church today
You claim
Okay, which is it Allen
Do the Gifts/manifestations exist today or not??
Please find a position and stick with it
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dmiller
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allan w.
Well, give us your (LDS) DEFINITION of 'speaking in tongues, int. tongues, prophecy' and I (we) can decide if you and I are even talking about the same gifts/ manifestations. You seemed to be (avoiding) LDS DEFINITION of them ?
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WordWolf
Sounded like you already were an expert on their beliefs when you STARTED
on the subject, Allan. Why REMAIN on the subject once you've been
proven wrong already?
BTW,
feel free to start a NEW thread in Doctrinal exploring the different
beliefs of various groups on the subject.
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dmiller
Hey Allan -- did you know docvic defined tongues wrong,
and that he got interpretation of tongues wrong too??
The book of Acts, says something much different than he did. ;)
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templelady
Allen the LDS take their definitions from scripture
you obviously take yours from PFAL
There can never be common ground in that disparity
So I am done belaboring the point with you.
dmiller
I would hazard guess that you are speaking of the passage where the apostles preach and listeners hears what is being taught it in their own language.
I had a lady I know who served a mission in Russia tell of the time she and other missionaries were at a Russian families home. The family spoke English except for the grandmother who spoke and understood only Russian, specifically the dialect of her region. One of the missionaries apologized for the fact that they couldn't teach everything in Russian so the grandmother could understand. The father of the family said, "oh that is alright she understands everything" Surprised my friend and her companion asked what the grandmother thought of what was taught that night. The grandmother proceeded to explain what she had learned through her son--she had understood every word perfectly.
I have had another missionary who taught in a Spanish speaking country tell of getting up and finding himself bearing his testimony in Spanish even though his skill in the language should not have permitted it.
And I agree that we can speak in tongues when speaking to the spirit in our PRIVATE prayer life, I've had the experience.
As far as I'm concerned it is a twisting of scripture to say that the person speaking is the one who interprets. It was a smokescreen on VPW's part so that he and others could say what ever they wanted and claim it was from God.
Do I think that everyone in TWI was therefore faking, No, God is able to work with anyone who truly is in tune with Him. But that was IMO in spite of rather than because of VPW's teachings.
As for prophecy--can anyone name one prophecy of VPW 's that came true, prophecy being the means of knowing what will be when it would not be possible to know it by any other means
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allan w.
Where was I proven wrong WW ??- Mo has stated that she s.i.t. in her private prayer life and I'll pretty much guarentee that wasn't (acquired) in the LDS, in fact IF Mo is s.i.t. in her private prayer life I'd say she is 'going against the grain' of what her church believes !
So which is it MO, does LDS encourage s.i.t. in ones private prayer life or no ?
Do LDS believe rather that s.i.t. is for out on the mission field that as Chas said " hardly anyone had heard of happening" ?
1 Corinthians 14: 4,5 " I would that ye all s.i.t, but rather that ye prophesied. For greater is he that prophesieth than he that s.i.t. EXCEPT he interpret that the Church might be edified" -Apostle Paul.
No wonder Mike despairs sometimes !!!
We have a number of people in our ministry that were never involved in twi yet to hear them s.i.t. AND interpret etc.. with such pure hearts and believing gives 'goosebumps' that's for sure.
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