Indeed it is, Paw. Next there'll be snow in hell. It seems a massive case of the Worm Turning, and I don't mean that to be impolite, but after so many years of stony, self-righteous silence, apparently this issue of Mrs. W. is getting under their skin. Massive numbers of unsatisified members leaving, all the events of the last 15-20 years etc. etc. etc....for years and nothing, nada, and then this brings out a public rebuttal. Interesting.
Maybe someone from the BOD can help me understand something.
How is it that there's no problem at all with their 501C3 status when it comes to having full-time maid/butler/chauffeur/housekeeper/babysitter/handyman service 24/7 for the BOD and their associates whilst living on grounds, but once one of them has to move into a nursing home, there's no way that TWI can help them. Their hands are tied. Government rules ya know. Our attorneys told us so.
George, maybe it's becaue Mrs. W. couldn't "work" for the Way anymore. Which begs the question, just what does an 8 hour day of Harvey's "work" consist of? What do ANY of them do for "work"?
I've been thinking of a quote of Frank Zappa's lately, and reading H.P.'s letter brought it back again. Zappa was being interviewed years ago in Musician magazine, I think it was. In case anyone's not familiar with him, he was a musician, guitarist, composer and depending on who you read he was a hack, a genius, a tad eccentric, whatever...figure anyone who names his kids Dweezil, Amhet and Moon Unit has some issues at the very least. Anyway...he always had some interesting things to say about the music industry.
The interviewer was asking him about his tendency to be negative about the music industry as a whole, and he asked Zappa if he deliberately tried to sand bag his own efforts by knocking it all the time. Zappa answered "It's not my job to kiss their a$$".
Next question was: "Don't you think you've grown more cynical over the years?"
Answer: "No, I just keep getting more evidence to back up my original cynicism". Classic.
I thought TWIers weren't supposed to be reading this stuff on the internet! There are several people here at the cafe who have been kicked out for doing just that! I think Harve should be reproved.
It is interesting, they choose this to resond to. Well Harve, why not discuss the events which lead to the dismissal of LCM? How about all the people who were kicked out for FAR FAR lesser "sins"?
How about discussing the lawsuits? No? Not up for that?
Well chalk one up for the CAFE and JP. You've actually got TWI resonding, a historical first.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
It sounds like JP's website is being read with the save private interpretation that twi uses to read Rom 13:8 and many other verses.
Was I the only one that did not get from JP's website that he wants his mother cared for at home? His letter says she "should have" had 24 hour care at home. That is past tense in my book. I took that as prior to her being moved to a nursing home. Harve seems to really want to make the false point that jp wants his mother out of the nursing home. I never read that into his website. Did anyone else? Twi is just trying to make it look like JP doesn't care about his mother.
Of course the biggest point is the change that this forum facilitates at twi. Congratulations Paw and JP for getting twi to actually post something on the web and respond to and admit that Greasespot is read by their followers. After all it is the only place where innies can get information.
Welcome to Greasespot twi! Have a cup of coffee. Nice to see ya finally posting after all these years of lurking!
I wonder why they didn't post their rebuttal on their own website??
That was a very interesting response twi gave. Lets believe every word that was written.....NOT!!!!! They have lied before, why not now? Its there usual bs.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
Anyway, on the subject of the letter, I think it is noteworthy that HP would contact Paw and request publication of the letter.
I wouldn't immediately write it off completely, as it is very detailed and painstakingly direct.
There are points that JP may be able to clarify which could show us whether there is any credibility, or not, to twi's apparently official response on the subject.
It obviously (the letter) is not completely professional, and therefore not necessarily objective, as noted by those who have reflected on HPs snide comment about inheritance.
Now, I did notice the other day a name of someone I thought was a part of twi leadership as a gsc member who had signed in (as shown at the bottom of the main forum page), and that person's public profile said something about being interested in learning about GSC content.
What does all this mean? Maybe nothing more than that GSC has indeed gotten "under the skin" of the BOD.
Maybe Mr Plate lick should wish to consider getting a real life instead of living off of others. He has about as much athority from "GOD" as the F---- Pope.
I can hardly believe TWI actually responded. As I remember lunch times announcements, I'd bet there were some big teachings on JP's website.
It seems to me, it may be time to remember the 5 steps down.....Gen 3. She "considered" was one step. Well, in considering the letter by TWI's representative (with my limited 25 years of exposure to their way of thinking) it may be time for JP to have any or all of the other sibblings get on his web-site to respond to the letter. If the accusation from TWI is correct that JP just has a burr in his saddle and is acting alone, that is relevant just as much as anything.
I would hope that this is not the case. I also suspect it isn't. But I'm just a jury member with one a one-sided opinion. Definitely need both side now.
It is just my personal opinion, but this letter seems too little too late to save themselves. For me personally, I can't believe what they say because of past experience and their continued silence on other such serious matters. The thing that would save them is true humility. If they were indeed sorry for past actions and made that known to others and the current leadership stepped down to let someone else take over who is humble, loving and spiritually minded, they MIGHT be able to recover. For with God, nothing is impossible.
Of course this is just my opinion, for what it is worth.
PS. Paw, I hope you can get some rest. Thanks for all your labor of love in keeping up with this site. I know that it has helped many.
Don't mean to play 'devil's advocate' here, but perhaps it needs to be determined how much of that letter is factual vs. being full of ..... And perhaps not only J.P. can tell us, but also especially his sister who supposedly has this 'power of attorney' as to how much details Harve 'Plate lick' ;)--> is getting correct or not.
Now THAT would do far more at undermining Harvey's 'indignant' response than any of our rantings could do, credibility-wise.
P.S., Maybe we can call this thread a take off of one of Pressed Down's songs -- "My Harvey Wrote Me a Letter". :D-->
I smell smoke. I think it's coming from the serious backpedaling going on in that letter. The other smell is coming from the BS involved in twisting JP's words (good observation, Napkin Lady) and trying to make Harve and his cohorts look like the good guys.
(Interesting that old Rosielee pawned this one off on Harve, isn't it? As president of the organization, wouldn't you think she'd be the one speaking up? Hmmmm, interesting indeed.)
Well, Harvey, since you've opened the dialogue, I have a few questions for you concerning some other situations in a similar vein as Mrs. Wierwille's care:
1. What about Cora Mae Peters? What kind of consideration was she given when she fell terminally ill after decades of service to The Way International? Did you pay for her care in her last days after she was booted out of there? I heard you didn't. I heard it from someone who's in a position to know. So are you going to tell me you did? If so, can you prove it? Backpedal that one.
2. How about Don Wierwille's funeral? What's wrong with this picture? The children of Dr. V.P. Wierwille had a time limit on how long they were permitted to stay at a funeral for their brother? A funeral, by the way, in case you've forgotten, which was taking place on the property of the home they grew up in?!?!?
You should be ashamed of yourself, Harvey. Really ashamed. And so should Rosalie and Donna and the new guy on the BOD. You live quite well (and don't tell me you don't, cuz I've been in some of your homes) off the ABS of the people of the Way. But you'd better be careful. All that backpedaling could be hazardous to the future of your gravy train, don't you think?
(Paw, I hope I was polite enough. I didn't cuss and I didn't call any names, but these people just frost my cookies.)
Just the fact that they responded shows there must be fallout. After ripping so many families apart for "standing" it APPEARS the shoe is on the other foot. Enjoy the ride Rosie
This reminds me of the little game we play. You know the one I am talking about, we take something twi has said and rephrase them to say what TWI REALLY MEANS.
This is that in reverse. JP writes a letter that has the true and actual FACTS, and TWI comes back with their typical, devilish, self-serving SPIN.
Don't they realize that we can all see right through their PERSONAL INTERPRETATIONof the situation? We spent years at their mercy, reading their letters, living through their mandates and struggling to live with their damnable self-righteousness.
I think the Ex-Way community has arrived at an unprecedented day, TWI has chosen to actually come out of their cocoon and put their integrity on the line. They want to debate this issue? GREAT...LET THE DEBATE BEGIN.
JP posted his letter and supporting material on HIS OWN website. A local poster here saw it and linked it to Gspot. TWI requested/demanded that this letter from Harve be put on Greasespot. Hey Harve...any reason you don't want this posted on THE WAY'S WEBSITE? You don't want the world to see it maybe? Why not put this on your own site and let us link to it?
Radar
[This message was edited by Radar O'Reilly on October 25, 2003 at 10:28.]
See guys??? Twi HAS got a logical sounding justification for their obscene behavior and cruel actions.......(haven`t they always?) ........and here we were doubting their motives and integrity...
Well, more information would be nice, Garth. Indeed! I'm all E-ars. (e=electronic)
I agree pretty much with all angles of the above. We're reading words on the internet. If I was going to be impartial, I'd say J.P.'s message was, they aren't telling the truth. I'd say Harve's message is yes we are.
One of Platig's points is that if J.P. wants to take over, he's welcome to join in. He's making it sound - to me - like if JP had a problem, he should have voiced it earlier and in fact is still welcome to, and he'll be listened to.
I smell smoke too, LZ. Based on past experience, I know Harve's a guy who considers being "valiant for the truth" talking himself in to believing whatever he's told, with a heaping dish of rationalization to make it go down easier. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give him a -1 on the Trust Meter. If I were involved with him in any way, I'd ALWAYS assume I need verification on anything he'd say, even if it was that the sun was out at 10:00 a.m. because he might really mean that it's cloudy and raining like cats and dogs but the sun is out "in his heart".
JP I'd always assume was being honest and at the very least caring and well meaning because I never knew him to be any other way. People change, and it's hard to tell with this but in either case that's my view.
All this stuff about Wanda being at the wheel is a tad smokey too. It just seems odd that a Weirwille-by-marriage is the only person with close enough contact to Mrs. W. to be in a position to direct these affairs. I'm not automatically discounting her intent, but isn't that caused by the fact that JP isn't an active member of this current configuration of the Way that he isn't allowed to have regular, normal contact with her as you would expect children to have with their mother? Able to come and go as they'd please, drop in, visit, etc. ?
Actually, if it were me, I'd have ripped a hole through that place a long time ago, if it was my mother, but even saying that I know it's easier said than done. And it's why I stay away from the place and the people. No good will come from personal contact with disease.
And I second that, Radar! Let the sun shine in on the business of the Way!
Few people have less respect for TWI and its doctrine and manipulative ways than me. However, I still believe that misguided as they may be, they believe that what they are doing is right. I think Platig is sincere in what he is saying ~ whether I agree or not I haven't decided and can't since I have no personal knowledge of any of this ~ and I don't believe that the personal attacks and "spin" that we are performing here makes a very good case for "our" points of view. If I were an impartial observer I would take Platig's side 100%. Even as a very partial observer I believe that he believes what he is saying is true.
I believe that the Way is a dangerous organization and want to see it disappear as much as anyone and more than most but I have to believe that in this case they have done what they should do.
Their doctrine is dangerous and twisted and illogical but these are not conspiratorial monsters hiding in a dark basement plotting how to destroy lives. They are sincere in their beliefs and their actions reflect their beliefs.
I think this is a big score on TWI's side and we should return to attacking where we have more solid footing. I think Mrs. Wierwille is in the best hands she can be in and that the anti-TWI community is giving itself a huge black eye today.
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
Who was it that said there are limits to how stupid someone can be?
whoever it was they obviously never met you.
early2it : It's worth reminding you (and others as well) that personal attacks - particularly posts which are nothing but personal attacks - are not welcome here. Like it says in the rules: "Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant." (emphasis added} Thank you, Pawtucket
[This message was edited by pawtucket on October 25, 2003 at 14:06.]
It's well reasoned arguments like yours that must be tickling the BOD to death today. As blind as a Wayfer is, we can be equally blind in our own way. Have a nice day.
A good way to lose a battle is to ascribe stupidity to your enemy. These are not stupid people we are dealing with and they will not make decisions that will so obviously expose their evilness to the faithful. This decision was well thought out, you can be sure of it. They can throw you and I around like a used washrag but this is not you are I we are discussing here.
And I still believe putting Mrs. Wierwille where she is was the best decision unless someone has any argument otherwise besides kneejerk emotional "TWI is always wrong no matter what" reactions. Again ~ how stupid do we think they are?
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
While early2it may have phrased his sentiments in a rough manner, I think he expressed a few people's sentiment quite well.
I was wondering EXACTLY why you think that the Ex-Way community has suffered a black-eye today?
Because the vice-president of TWI sounds SINCERE????
Of course he sounds sincere, he does believe what he wrote, he is PAID TO BELIEVE WHAT HE WROTE. Not only that, they had 2 weeks, a full word processing department, publications department and paid legal staff to help draft the letter.
I don't believe for one minute that Harve is MORE sincere in his belief than JP Wierwille is in his that each of them are each correct respectively. Consider the source.
Regarding the placement of Dorothea Wierwille in a nursing home...OF COURSE IT WAS A WELL THOUGHT OUT DECISION. The question is was in well thought out in the light of what was best for her or what was best for twi?
Well, personally, I think they are DAMNED stupid. Anyone who would hang around such a thoroughly discredited organization - for whatever reason - has got to be suspect.
We only have one life to live, why would anyone sell out for such a pathetic mess of potage as TWI? Yes, all of us made that mistake at one time in our lives, but we grew up. We saw the putrid outfit for what it really was/is. And we moved on in our lives.
It would seem that the luxurious lifestyle and perks of a leadership postion at WayWorld were enough for the BOD and co. to derail there lives in order to live out the fairytale/lie that is TWI doctrine.
If that's not a blatant indication of stupidity,
then at the very least (to quote Socks) they have some "issues"...
I have no idea what the real situation is with Mrs. Wierwille, but like Linda and Socks, I DEFINITELY smell smoke...
geo.
[This message was edited by George Aar on October 25, 2003 at 13:29.]
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socks
George, maybe it's becaue Mrs. W. couldn't "work" for the Way anymore. Which begs the question, just what does an 8 hour day of Harvey's "work" consist of? What do ANY of them do for "work"? I've bee
excathedra
jp decided to do that site and before that.... it was on here.... ?
socks
Indeed it is, Paw. Next there'll be snow in hell. It seems a massive case of the Worm Turning, and I don't mean that to be impolite, but after so many years of stony, self-righteous silence, apparently this issue of Mrs. W. is getting under their skin. Massive numbers of unsatisified members leaving, all the events of the last 15-20 years etc. etc. etc....for years and nothing, nada, and then this brings out a public rebuttal. Interesting.
practice makes perfect
sense when it comes to love...
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George Aar
Maybe someone from the BOD can help me understand something.
How is it that there's no problem at all with their 501C3 status when it comes to having full-time maid/butler/chauffeur/housekeeper/babysitter/handyman service 24/7 for the BOD and their associates whilst living on grounds, but once one of them has to move into a nursing home, there's no way that TWI can help them. Their hands are tied. Government rules ya know. Our attorneys told us so.
Huh?
geo.
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socks
George, maybe it's becaue Mrs. W. couldn't "work" for the Way anymore. Which begs the question, just what does an 8 hour day of Harvey's "work" consist of? What do ANY of them do for "work"?
I've been thinking of a quote of Frank Zappa's lately, and reading H.P.'s letter brought it back again. Zappa was being interviewed years ago in Musician magazine, I think it was. In case anyone's not familiar with him, he was a musician, guitarist, composer and depending on who you read he was a hack, a genius, a tad eccentric, whatever...figure anyone who names his kids Dweezil, Amhet and Moon Unit has some issues at the very least. Anyway...he always had some interesting things to say about the music industry.
The interviewer was asking him about his tendency to be negative about the music industry as a whole, and he asked Zappa if he deliberately tried to sand bag his own efforts by knocking it all the time. Zappa answered "It's not my job to kiss their a$$".
Next question was: "Don't you think you've grown more cynical over the years?"
Answer: "No, I just keep getting more evidence to back up my original cynicism". Classic.
practice makes perfect
sense when it comes to love...
(Michael Franks)
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Abigail
I thought TWIers weren't supposed to be reading this stuff on the internet! There are several people here at the cafe who have been kicked out for doing just that! I think Harve should be reproved.
It is interesting, they choose this to resond to. Well Harve, why not discuss the events which lead to the dismissal of LCM? How about all the people who were kicked out for FAR FAR lesser "sins"?
How about discussing the lawsuits? No? Not up for that?
Well chalk one up for the CAFE and JP. You've actually got TWI resonding, a historical first.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Ariel
I am glad TWI responded. It is good to hear both sides of the story.
I do not, however, think most of us really know the full situation. I trust the Wierwille siblings do. I hope we hear more from them here.
I did not appreciate the slam against JP re: his "inheritance". HOW low can you go?
We can pray.
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napkinlady
It sounds like JP's website is being read with the save private interpretation that twi uses to read Rom 13:8 and many other verses.
Was I the only one that did not get from JP's website that he wants his mother cared for at home? His letter says she "should have" had 24 hour care at home. That is past tense in my book. I took that as prior to her being moved to a nursing home. Harve seems to really want to make the false point that jp wants his mother out of the nursing home. I never read that into his website. Did anyone else? Twi is just trying to make it look like JP doesn't care about his mother.
Of course the biggest point is the change that this forum facilitates at twi. Congratulations Paw and JP for getting twi to actually post something on the web and respond to and admit that Greasespot is read by their followers. After all it is the only place where innies can get information.
Welcome to Greasespot twi! Have a cup of coffee. Nice to see ya finally posting after all these years of lurking!
I wonder why they didn't post their rebuttal on their own website??
Napkinlady
Fold TWI, Fold!
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vickles
That was a very interesting response twi gave. Lets believe every word that was written.....NOT!!!!! They have lied before, why not now? Its there usual bs.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Rocky
Socks,
That's "One bad habit" you've got there.
Anyway, on the subject of the letter, I think it is noteworthy that HP would contact Paw and request publication of the letter.
I wouldn't immediately write it off completely, as it is very detailed and painstakingly direct.
There are points that JP may be able to clarify which could show us whether there is any credibility, or not, to twi's apparently official response on the subject.
It obviously (the letter) is not completely professional, and therefore not necessarily objective, as noted by those who have reflected on HPs snide comment about inheritance.
Now, I did notice the other day a name of someone I thought was a part of twi leadership as a gsc member who had signed in (as shown at the bottom of the main forum page), and that person's public profile said something about being interested in learning about GSC content.
What does all this mean? Maybe nothing more than that GSC has indeed gotten "under the skin" of the BOD.
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early2it
Maybe Mr Plate lick should wish to consider getting a real life instead of living off of others. He has about as much athority from "GOD" as the F---- Pope.
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TheEnd
Why didn't Harve put his letter on his own web site?
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personalentertainr
I can hardly believe TWI actually responded. As I remember lunch times announcements, I'd bet there were some big teachings on JP's website.
It seems to me, it may be time to remember the 5 steps down.....Gen 3. She "considered" was one step. Well, in considering the letter by TWI's representative (with my limited 25 years of exposure to their way of thinking) it may be time for JP to have any or all of the other sibblings get on his web-site to respond to the letter. If the accusation from TWI is correct that JP just has a burr in his saddle and is acting alone, that is relevant just as much as anything.
I would hope that this is not the case. I also suspect it isn't. But I'm just a jury member with one a one-sided opinion. Definitely need both side now.
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gladtobeout
It is just my personal opinion, but this letter seems too little too late to save themselves. For me personally, I can't believe what they say because of past experience and their continued silence on other such serious matters. The thing that would save them is true humility. If they were indeed sorry for past actions and made that known to others and the current leadership stepped down to let someone else take over who is humble, loving and spiritually minded, they MIGHT be able to recover. For with God, nothing is impossible.
Of course this is just my opinion, for what it is worth.
PS. Paw, I hope you can get some rest. Thanks for all your labor of love in keeping up with this site. I know that it has helped many.
gladtobeout
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fortunateone
Wow
What a rude and redundant letter from Harvey.
Surely expresses their collective malignant heart well. Nice to see him finally take a stand
in public so we can see his heart for what it is.
Vindictive.
He has always liked to make a point of peoples'
errors and weaknesses.
I wonder how much input his wife and others had in the wording.
Today's lesson in living....
Don't trust your heart or loved ones to the Way.
FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI
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GarthP2000
Don't mean to play 'devil's advocate' here, but perhaps it needs to be determined how much of that letter is factual vs. being full of ..... And perhaps not only J.P. can tell us, but also especially his sister who supposedly has this 'power of attorney' as to how much details Harve 'Plate lick'
;)--> is getting correct or not.
Now THAT would do far more at undermining Harvey's 'indignant' response than any of our rantings could do, credibility-wise.
P.S., Maybe we can call this thread a take off of one of Pressed Down's songs -- "My Harvey Wrote Me a Letter".
:D-->
((ducking))
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Linda Z
I smell smoke. I think it's coming from the serious backpedaling going on in that letter. The other smell is coming from the BS involved in twisting JP's words (good observation, Napkin Lady) and trying to make Harve and his cohorts look like the good guys.
(Interesting that old Rosielee pawned this one off on Harve, isn't it? As president of the organization, wouldn't you think she'd be the one speaking up? Hmmmm, interesting indeed.)
Well, Harvey, since you've opened the dialogue, I have a few questions for you concerning some other situations in a similar vein as Mrs. Wierwille's care:
1. What about Cora Mae Peters? What kind of consideration was she given when she fell terminally ill after decades of service to The Way International? Did you pay for her care in her last days after she was booted out of there? I heard you didn't. I heard it from someone who's in a position to know. So are you going to tell me you did? If so, can you prove it? Backpedal that one.
2. How about Don Wierwille's funeral? What's wrong with this picture? The children of Dr. V.P. Wierwille had a time limit on how long they were permitted to stay at a funeral for their brother? A funeral, by the way, in case you've forgotten, which was taking place on the property of the home they grew up in?!?!?
You should be ashamed of yourself, Harvey. Really ashamed. And so should Rosalie and Donna and the new guy on the BOD. You live quite well (and don't tell me you don't, cuz I've been in some of your homes) off the ABS of the people of the Way. But you'd better be careful. All that backpedaling could be hazardous to the future of your gravy train, don't you think?
(Paw, I hope I was polite enough. I didn't cuss and I didn't call any names, but these people just frost my cookies.)
Linda Z
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DATWAY
Just the fact that they responded shows there must be fallout. After ripping so many families apart for "standing" it APPEARS the shoe is on the other foot. Enjoy the ride Rosie
WAYWho?
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Radar OReilly
This reminds me of the little game we play. You know the one I am talking about, we take something twi has said and rephrase them to say what TWI REALLY MEANS.
This is that in reverse. JP writes a letter that has the true and actual FACTS, and TWI comes back with their typical, devilish, self-serving SPIN.
Don't they realize that we can all see right through their PERSONAL INTERPRETATIONof the situation? We spent years at their mercy, reading their letters, living through their mandates and struggling to live with their damnable self-righteousness.
I think the Ex-Way community has arrived at an unprecedented day, TWI has chosen to actually come out of their cocoon and put their integrity on the line. They want to debate this issue? GREAT...LET THE DEBATE BEGIN.
JP posted his letter and supporting material on HIS OWN website. A local poster here saw it and linked it to Gspot. TWI requested/demanded that this letter from Harve be put on Greasespot. Hey Harve...any reason you don't want this posted on THE WAY'S WEBSITE? You don't want the world to see it maybe? Why not put this on your own site and let us link to it?
Radar
[This message was edited by Radar O'Reilly on October 25, 2003 at 10:28.]
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rascal
Well Harve....wasn`t THAT spaaaaaaashul....
See guys??? Twi HAS got a logical sounding justification for their obscene behavior and cruel actions.......(haven`t they always?) ........and here we were doubting their motives and integrity...
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socks
Rocky:
:)-->
Well, more information would be nice, Garth. Indeed! I'm all E-ars. (e=electronic)
I agree pretty much with all angles of the above. We're reading words on the internet. If I was going to be impartial, I'd say J.P.'s message was, they aren't telling the truth. I'd say Harve's message is yes we are.
One of Platig's points is that if J.P. wants to take over, he's welcome to join in. He's making it sound - to me - like if JP had a problem, he should have voiced it earlier and in fact is still welcome to, and he'll be listened to.
I smell smoke too, LZ. Based on past experience, I know Harve's a guy who considers being "valiant for the truth" talking himself in to believing whatever he's told, with a heaping dish of rationalization to make it go down easier. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give him a -1 on the Trust Meter. If I were involved with him in any way, I'd ALWAYS assume I need verification on anything he'd say, even if it was that the sun was out at 10:00 a.m. because he might really mean that it's cloudy and raining like cats and dogs but the sun is out "in his heart".
JP I'd always assume was being honest and at the very least caring and well meaning because I never knew him to be any other way. People change, and it's hard to tell with this but in either case that's my view.
All this stuff about Wanda being at the wheel is a tad smokey too. It just seems odd that a Weirwille-by-marriage is the only person with close enough contact to Mrs. W. to be in a position to direct these affairs. I'm not automatically discounting her intent, but isn't that caused by the fact that JP isn't an active member of this current configuration of the Way that he isn't allowed to have regular, normal contact with her as you would expect children to have with their mother? Able to come and go as they'd please, drop in, visit, etc. ?
Actually, if it were me, I'd have ripped a hole through that place a long time ago, if it was my mother, but even saying that I know it's easier said than done. And it's why I stay away from the place and the people. No good will come from personal contact with disease.
And I second that, Radar! Let the sun shine in on the business of the Way!
practice makes perfect
sense when it comes to love...
Michael Franks
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Flay Minion
Few people have less respect for TWI and its doctrine and manipulative ways than me. However, I still believe that misguided as they may be, they believe that what they are doing is right. I think Platig is sincere in what he is saying ~ whether I agree or not I haven't decided and can't since I have no personal knowledge of any of this ~ and I don't believe that the personal attacks and "spin" that we are performing here makes a very good case for "our" points of view. If I were an impartial observer I would take Platig's side 100%. Even as a very partial observer I believe that he believes what he is saying is true.
I believe that the Way is a dangerous organization and want to see it disappear as much as anyone and more than most but I have to believe that in this case they have done what they should do.
Their doctrine is dangerous and twisted and illogical but these are not conspiratorial monsters hiding in a dark basement plotting how to destroy lives. They are sincere in their beliefs and their actions reflect their beliefs.
I think this is a big score on TWI's side and we should return to attacking where we have more solid footing. I think Mrs. Wierwille is in the best hands she can be in and that the anti-TWI community is giving itself a huge black eye today.
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
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early2it
Flay Minion
Who was it that said there are limits to how stupid someone can be?
whoever it was they obviously never met you.
early2it : It's worth reminding you (and others as well) that personal attacks - particularly posts which are nothing but personal attacks - are not welcome here. Like it says in the rules: "Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant." (emphasis added} Thank you, Pawtucket
[This message was edited by pawtucket on October 25, 2003 at 14:06.]
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Flay Minion
It's well reasoned arguments like yours that must be tickling the BOD to death today. As blind as a Wayfer is, we can be equally blind in our own way. Have a nice day.
A good way to lose a battle is to ascribe stupidity to your enemy. These are not stupid people we are dealing with and they will not make decisions that will so obviously expose their evilness to the faithful. This decision was well thought out, you can be sure of it. They can throw you and I around like a used washrag but this is not you are I we are discussing here.
And I still believe putting Mrs. Wierwille where she is was the best decision unless someone has any argument otherwise besides kneejerk emotional "TWI is always wrong no matter what" reactions. Again ~ how stupid do we think they are?
I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.
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Radar OReilly
Dear Flay,
While early2it may have phrased his sentiments in a rough manner, I think he expressed a few people's sentiment quite well.
I was wondering EXACTLY why you think that the Ex-Way community has suffered a black-eye today?
Because the vice-president of TWI sounds SINCERE????
Of course he sounds sincere, he does believe what he wrote, he is PAID TO BELIEVE WHAT HE WROTE. Not only that, they had 2 weeks, a full word processing department, publications department and paid legal staff to help draft the letter.
I don't believe for one minute that Harve is MORE sincere in his belief than JP Wierwille is in his that each of them are each correct respectively. Consider the source.
Regarding the placement of Dorothea Wierwille in a nursing home...OF COURSE IT WAS A WELL THOUGHT OUT DECISION. The question is was in well thought out in the light of what was best for her or what was best for twi?
Radar
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George Aar
FM,
"Again ~ how stupid do we think they are?"
Well, personally, I think they are DAMNED stupid. Anyone who would hang around such a thoroughly discredited organization - for whatever reason - has got to be suspect.
We only have one life to live, why would anyone sell out for such a pathetic mess of potage as TWI? Yes, all of us made that mistake at one time in our lives, but we grew up. We saw the putrid outfit for what it really was/is. And we moved on in our lives.
It would seem that the luxurious lifestyle and perks of a leadership postion at WayWorld were enough for the BOD and co. to derail there lives in order to live out the fairytale/lie that is TWI doctrine.
If that's not a blatant indication of stupidity,
then at the very least (to quote Socks) they have some "issues"...
I have no idea what the real situation is with Mrs. Wierwille, but like Linda and Socks, I DEFINITELY smell smoke...
geo.
[This message was edited by George Aar on October 25, 2003 at 13:29.]
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