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If you had, you wouldn't be the man you are now. You wouldn't have the insight from which to light the way out of the darkness you actually now do have.

Yeah, really disappointing. Looking back.....I should have EXITED twi, then and there. Wierwille was a fraud.....smoke and mirrors. All the smoke......the tangents, The Illuminati, None Dare Call It Conspiracy, Marxist Minstrels, The Thirteenth Tribe, The Myth of the Six Million. All the mirrors......look at the great "man of God" and relish in his definitions of each manifestation. How wonderful to see the sleight-of-hand.....er, gift ministries of Teacher, Prophet and Apostle he brings to us in this day and time. Pppppffffftttt.

T-Bone and Rocky.....thanks, and I understand where you are coming from regarding this. BUT..... honestly, at times, the hurt in my heart aches from my deprogramming experience. This episode caused a fracture and an estrangement with my parents that never was mended. Last week was the 14-year anniversary of my Dad's death.....and some of the memories came back into view. Here at Greasespot.....we've spent some 20 years unraveling the deception, manipulation and exploitation of this cult. I'm quite certain that my farming parents had no concept of how to cut twi's tentacles from my young mind. They were concerned, anxious and understandably scared. When this deprogramming effort "failed"..... I spent 17 more years trapped in this cult, 17 more years that I didn't have them in my life. Hopefully, others who visit GSC will heed our warnings. Twi is a cult.....and exudes disdain for what they call one's "earthly family." So, how's that "spiritual household" working out for you, twi? Tatters and ruins. .

It was one of the most depressing, disappointing experiences of my entire life.

The Four Verses…not to be confused with the Four Horsemen… ...if there’s any confusion it’s probably from wierwille horsing around Below are the four verses that wierwille listed…after rereading the entire chapter today just to review the explanations he gave for discounting the 4 verses as being a reference to the divinity of Jesus Christ – I will forego copying and pasting his gobbledygook here and will instead list the 4 verses and refer to online commentaries – copying and pasting from reputable sources…Grease Spot Readers take note of the hyperlinks to Bible Hub below – a convenient resource for Bible Study – for instance click on this hyperlink of II Timothy 2:15 and it will take you to the parallel verses for II Tim.2:15; the website is user friendly – by clicking on the 3 letter Translation or below it the category like commentary, Interlinear, sermon, etc. you can be pretty thorough in your study...with any of the Bible Hub hyperlinks i give below - you can go on all kinds of tangents for hours just by clicking on the various tabs / buttons - you can check out other translations, Greek text, definitions of biblical words, commentaries...so remember to have fun Anyway…the 4 “supposed problem” verses that wierwille lists in chapter 4 Who is the Word? in Jesus Christ is Not God are: 1. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. I Timothy 3:16 KJV wierwille points out it’s questionable if the Greek text has the word “God” …while that certainly may be so if you look at the interlinear of I Timothy 3:16 - however even with the word being instead “who” a pronoun – the passage still seems to allude to the divinity of Christ – such as in other versions: Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. I Timothy 3:16 NASB A few study Bibles that I’ve checked say this is part of a Christian hymn that starts off emphasizing Christ’s incarnation. Ever thought about that word “incarnation”? I don’t ever remember that word being used in TWI. I wonder why. Definition of Incarnation - a person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality…In I Tim. 3:16 Paul affirms the humanity and divinity of Christ. The mystery of godliness may refer to the Old Testament symbolic truths in sacrifices that foreshadowed the salvation and righteousness of Christ which produces holiness in believers. In a manner of speaking Christ was like God with skin on – what better way to relate to His people…I don’t have a beef with wierwille offering his opinion of God and Jesus Christ. I think the real treachery was wierwille’s self-assuming role as TWI’s high priest… In the Old Testament, the high priest served as a mediator between God and the people and was the only one who had close contact with the Holy of Holies…uhm…in case anyone missed it Jesus Christ took over the job of high priest Hebrews 2:17 Hebrews 4:14 I won’t get into deep theological and philosophical musings over the concept of God – but given the individuality / uniqueness / nurture / nature aspects of people, I’d venture to say – for those who profess to believe in a higher power – that everyone will probably have a concept of God / some higher power that differs more or less from everyone else…even if we factor in the experience of those who believe they interact with God / some higher power (through prayer, meditation, inspiration, illumination, etc.) there would probably be even more diverse impressions of God / some higher power even with all “believers” doing their best to articulate the experience…just as siblings in a large family would each have their own thoughts and feelings for their parents…just reflect on the dynamics of interacting with another sentient being - it's not a one-way form of communication - interacting is reciprocal - there is something shared...perhaps even transforming to both parties. My intent in this digression is to point out the audacity of wierwille to dictate to followers the orthodox concept of God…and Jesus Christ. Regarding the other 3 “problem verses” I will let some reputable commentaries counter wierwille’s nonsense. ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 wierwille states Heb 1:8 is quoting Ps 45:6 and basically says it's referring to an earthly king Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom Psalm 45:6 But Benson’s commentary on Ps. 45:6 says it speaks to more than an earthly king: Psalm 45:6. Thy throne, O God, &c. — It is evident that the speech is still continued to the same person whom he calls king, Psalm 45:1; Psalm 45:11; and here God, to assure us that he doth not speak of Solomon, but of a far greater king, who is not only a man, but the mighty God, Isaiah 9:6. For though the name Elohim, or God, be sometimes given in Scripture to some creatures, yet, in those cases, it is always clogged with some diminishing expression, signifying that they are only made, or called gods, and that only for a certain time and purpose; (see Exodus 4:16; Exodus 7:1; Psalm 82:6; and it is nowhere put simply and absolutely for any person but him, who is God, blessed for ever, Romans 9:5. Is for ever and ever — Namely, properly, and in thine own person, in which, as he lives for ever, so he must necessarily reign for ever; whereas David, whose throne was said to be established for ever, 2 Samuel 7:16, was a mortal man, and therefore that promise was not intended of, nor could be fulfilled in, his person, without including his seed, and especially the Messiah. And, as he here gives to the Messiah the name of God, which was never given to David nor Solomon, so he ascribes an everlasting kingdom to him, in such a sense as was never given to them. So Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14. The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre — The sceptres of earthly princes are often swayed with great injustice and manifold iniquities, which lay the foundation of their overthrow; but thou rulest with exact righteousness and equity, and therefore thy throne is established, Proverbs 16:12. From Psalm 45:6 Benson commentary ~ ~ ~ ~ 3. Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28 Ellicott’s comments on this are short and to the point: My Lord and my God.—These words are preceded by “said unto him,” and are followed by “because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed;” and the words “my Lord” can only be referred to Christ. (Comp. John 20:13.) The sentence cannot therefore, without violence to the context, be taken as an exclamation addressed to God, and is to be understood in the natural meaning of a confession by the Apostle that his Lord was also God. from John 20:28 Ellicott’s commentary ~ ~ ~ ~ 4. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 it's noteworthy Ellicott’s commentary says the Hebrew word for God is only used in reference to deity: His name shall be called Wonderful.—It is noticeable that that which follows is given not as many names, but one. Consisting as it does of eight words, of which the last six obviously fall into three couplets, it is probable that the first two should also be taken together, and that we have four elements of the compound name: (1) Wonderful-Counsellor, (2) God-the-Mighty-One, (3) Father of Eternity, (4) Prince of Peace. Each element of the Name has its special significance. (1) The first embodies the thought of the wisdom of the future Messiah. Men should not simply praise it as they praise their fellows, but should adore and wonder at it as they wonder at the wisdom of God (Judges 13:18, where the Hebrew for the “secret” of the Authorised version is the same as that for “wonderful;” Exodus 15:11; Psalm 77:11; Psalm 78:11; Isaiah 28:29; Isaiah 29:14). The name contains the germ afterwards developed in the picture of the wisdom of the true king in Isaiah 11:2-4. The LXX. renders the Hebrew as “the angel of great counsel,” and in the Vatican text the description ends there. (2) It is significant that the word for “God” is not Elohim, which may be used in a lower sense for those who are representatives of God, as in Exodus 7:1; Exodus 22:28, 1Samuel 28:13, but El, which is never used by Isaiah, or any other Old Testament writer, in any lower sense than that of absolute Deity, and which, we may note, had been specially brought before the prophet’s thoughts in the name Immanuel. The name appears again as applied directly to Jehovah in Isaiah 10:21; Deuteronomy 10:17; Jeremiah 32:18; Nehemiah 9:32; Psalm 24:8; and the adjective in Isaiah 42:13. (3) In “Father of Eternity,” (LXX. Alex. and Vulg., “Father of the age to come “) we have a name which seems at first to clash with the formalised developments of Christian theology, which teach us, lest we should “confound the persons,” not to deal with the names of the Father and the Son as interchangeable. Those developments, however, were obviously not within Isaiah’s ken, and he uses the name of “Father” because none other expressed so well the true idea of loving and protecting government (Job 29:16, Isaiah 22:21). And if the kingdom was to be “for ever and ever,” then in some very real sense he would be, in that attribute of Fatherly government, a sharer in the eternity of Jehovah. Another rendering of the name, adopted by some critics, “Father (i.e., Giver) of booty,” has little to recommend it, and is entirely out of harmony with the majesty of the context. (4) “Prince of Peace.” The prophet clings, as all prophets before him had done, to the thought that peace, and not war, belonged to the ideal Kingdom of the Messiah. That hope had been embodied by David in the name of Absalom (“ father of peace “) and Solomon. It had been uttered in the prayer of Psalm 72:3, and by Isaiah’s contemporary, Micah (Micah 5:5). Earth-powers, like Assyria and Egypt, might rest in war and conquest as an end, but the true king, though warfare might be needed to subdue his foes (Psalm 45:5), was to be a “Prince of Peace” (Zechariah 9:9-10). It must be noted as remarkable, looking to the grandeur of the prophecy, and its apparently direct testimony to the true nature of the Christ, that it is nowhere cited in the New Testament as fulfilled in Him; and this, though Isaiah 9:1 is, as we have seen, quoted by St. Matthew and Isaiah 9:7, finds at least an allusive reference in Luke 1:32-33. from Isaiah 9:6 Ellicott’s commentary ~ ~ ~ ~ I think wierwille pitting 50 verses that say Son of God to 4 verses that refer to Jesus Christ as God is like comparing apples to oranges after you mix all of them together in a blender. As I explained in a previous post What does “Jesus Christ the Son of God” mean? - see here - In the Bible a son is a male begotten by a father. In a broader sense sonship denotes a range of familial, hereditary, social, and theological relationships. Biblical references to sons need to be understood in the context of the extreme value that ancient cultures placed on sons…There are approximately 150 NT references to Christ as “the Son”, “Son of God” or “Son of Man.” As a trinitarian term, sonship images relationship between Christ and the Father. Building on the image of human sonship noted above, it is also a designation of honor and exaltation, heightened by the epithet “only begotten.” In my opinion wierwille tended to water down…and worse obfuscate the unique, exalted, and divine characteristics of “the Son of God” which obviously refers to a literal physical relationship between Jesus Christ and God. How he downgraded it was by equating it with the adoption of sons Romans 8:15 Galatians 4:5 . An adopted son does not have a literal physical relationship with his father…and to add to the confusion wierwille’s fundamentalism interpreted being born again of incorruptible seed as something that was literally true - I have presented counterarguments to wierwille’s literalism earlier on this thread - here - and here - so I don’t see the need to rehash that again.

How else could it be but a downward spiral fading into obscurity and death? Rebuild what? Rebuild on what? The 1942 promise? The foundation of the entire enterprise from the very beginning is based on lies. All of it. Let them repent. Let them address their sins. Let them get honest. Then what? BUT let them WAKE UP to Truth. Let them truly get born again. Let them find out what that means. Only then will they be free to see that there is nothing to rebuild. All that will be left to do is fold. Until then, blindness, folly, death. *Thank you for every word you've ever written here, Skyrider.

Sky, I remember the Rocks of 1978, and 1979. You are so right; a lot of people sang, and they were very good. ROA 1979 was my "Homecoming. " Those of us who had successfully completed our year, were welcomed "home". (Back to the ROA). Those Rocks were fun; people sang, and met up with people they hadn't seen in some time. The music from the "Big Top" at night was so good!! Remember the slogan, "fun, food, and Fellowship?" Those early rocks were so good, I couldn't wait to go to them. I went to seven of them in ten years, and enjoyed most of them. My last ROA was 1987, and it wasn't very enjoyable. It seemed to me, most of the fun, and joy had disappeared. I couldn't leave fast enough, and I knew I would never go back, and I didn't. Those early Rocks were full of good times, and good people.

I just saw this today on Amazon. In this award-winning memoir, Alexandra Amor shines a light on cults so that others might learn from her heartbreaking experience. Amor gracefully and sensitively explains how ordinary and intelligent people get seduced into joining cults, why they stay despite the emotional and psychological abuse, and what the long process of recovery looks like once someone leaves a cult. I haven't read it, but the narrative sounds intriguing.

Outandabout.........ironic, ain't it? Young, zealous people sign on the line to "Go Corps." The program includes........1) Isolation, 2) Intimidation, 3) Immersion, 4) Indoctrination and 5) Idolization. What could go wrong? The brochure said...."Trained Christian Leaders for A Lifetime of Christian Service." Lots of Red Flags of Emotional Trauma, Conflicts, Confrontation and Sexual Abuse......Thousands Exit. But.....But......."They tell us that WE are the faithful remnant of God and will be rewarded if we stand." There are STILL way corps around who consider victor paul wierwille as their "Father in the Word." To even associate wierwille in a father-figure manner adjoines psychological abuse to indoctrination. Add 20, 30 and 40 years later...........and the Abused have become the Abusers!! It seems apparent to me..........after 10 years (1958-1967) of driving from city to city to teach pfal, wierwille finally realized that he NEEDED youth leaders to front his organization. Wierwille was failing........and he needed a new schtick. So, he devised the subliminal messaging of "coming to the farm to be with your TRUE FAMILY. Here, we have Uncle Harry (vpw's brother) and Aunt Sevilla (vpw's older sister). Hey, stay a couple of weeks and attend the upcoming Summer School. Love-bomb them. Treat them special. Add music, campfires and night owls. Many were displaced youth, transient hippie-types.......looking for belonging, looking for a place to call home. Go WOW. Go Corps. With more and more distance from one's family and roots.......the cult becomes "family." Cults and the Art of Deception Stockholm Syndrome

It’s a weird cruel sham to have followers think that The Way International is “dedicated to setting before people the astonishing accuracy and practicality of God’s Word” ( from TWI's website )…how they continue to ignore and cover-up the excessive moral depravity of wierwille and others is mind-boggling! Yet consider the fallout from the Penn State child sex abuse scandal (see links below). That is how the world - not way-world, but the real world – reacted to that scandal. To use wierwille’s own words from PFAL against him and his legacy (The Way International) there’s got to be something wrong with our scale of values. How does this bull$hit continue to live on? …the perpetual idolizing of wierwille…occasionally putting another coat of whitewash on the life of wierwille…enjoying the dividends of hypocrisy – money and getting to lord it over others. That’s why The Way International strives to remain a world unto itself – God forbid its hypocrisy should come to light. God forbid they should be treated or understood any differently than Jerry Sandusky, Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, Larry Nassar. Wikipedia - Penn State child sex abuse scandal CNN - facts of Penn State Scandal

I've heard it said before that when enough people with cognitive dissonance Gather Together the Masses collapse on themselves to create a singularity. This singularity has such an immense Mass that is distorts all the spacetime around it (and Light cannot escape). Thus, these people have a vision of reality extremely different than those people on the outside.

Ha ! You said "Wierdhole" Is that similar to a black hole? Black hole: a region of space having such an intense gravitational field that nothing can escape or when used informally refers to a place where people or things, especially money, disappear without a trace. Fortunately when followers of TWI & splinter groups wise up to cult tactics they get all Interstellar and bust outta that "wierdhole" or its surrounding satellites.

An old thread, this, but some may have no knowledge, so it may be of interest. Bear in mind that Gartmore was supposed to be the European HQ. As such - why seek a place in the farthest north, most remote part? Scotland isn't at all close to Italy, Germany, other locations. Not too far from Scandinavia, where there were quite a number of believers, and Ireland, likewise - but England would be just as accessible for those people and MUCH easier for any overland travellers from Europe - and probably cheaper in airfares for those who flew. Europe has, and had at the time, fantastically good overland networks. Great rail through many countries, great wide roads and motorways, no border controls once within the area... You would think somewhere in France or perhaps Germany might be more appropriate. With a national to lead the ministry. But HQ was keen to get rid of CG, and a European HQ anywhere other than the UK would require CG to be completely fluent (rather than just "good") in one or more European languages - or rely on interpreters - heck, he wouldn't like that loss of control Ego. It was all about his ego.

Same was said..... ....when building the BRC at hq ....when 6th Corps went to Emporia Campus ....when Kansas believers worked weekends at Emporia ....when Camp Gunnison needed upgrades and building projects ....when L.E.A.D. at Tinnie, NM had Way Builders sent in ....when young corps worked 80 hrs weeks to get ready for Rock of Ages ....when Word in Business and Profession Conferences were in your state ....when Advanced Class Specials were in Texas during Thanksgiving weekend ....all of this is standard modus operandi And.......THAT is the point. Where DID the money go? WHO pocketed all the money from ALL the FREE labor? Sure, if you're happy to give......give. BUT...it is a punch in the gut to realize that SERIAL SEXUAL PREDATION and EXPLOITATION were part and parcel to the "lying eyes and smiling faces."

I just thought it was a fancy bit of alliteration. Spose he could have called it Wierwille the Womaniser, but it doesn't have the same ring about it...