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“No man can REALLY say that Jesus is Lord, but by holy spirit.” That's pfal, not Bible. When you add "really", you add a word, and no longer have...? Also, saying "by holy spirit" means "by speaking in tongues". you're changing what the Bible said. When you change the words, you no longer have..... So, if that has nothing to do with s.i.t. (which it doesn't, that was vpw's unsupported claim,) then what does it mean that "No man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit"? It's still taking about making Jesus your Lord/setting forth that Jesus is your Lord. What does it mean that he's your lord? It means he's your sovereign, and you have sworn fealty to him. He commands, you obey. (Yes, as your sovereign, he has responsibilities, also, so this goes both ways in a formal relationship.) So, how does 'by the Holy Spirit" figure in? In the more obvious manner. Matthew 13. "3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ======================= John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. -------------------------------- Once you look at it without trying to shoehorn vpw's error-ridden doctrines into the verses where they do not appear, they make a lot more sense.

Upon further analysis, just wanted to point out Johniam’s old post (May 3rd 2007 ! ) performs multi-duty: Criticize those who’s conscience was victimized by wierwille’s hypocritical ideology; this is a typical strategy of abusers and those who come to the defense of abusers to blame the victim. This is the classic unrepentant sinful cult-leader’s rule - the old Isaiah 5:20 switcheroo call evil good and good evil – “no condemnation” of wierwille’s licentious behavior the tu quoque or “you too” fallacy - this might work if Johniam were addressing a convention of serial rapists. But he’s addressing Grease Spotters – some of which may have been victims of his sexual predation and/or had their inner voice sabotaged – silencing one’s personal guide in rightness or wrongness of one's behavior A habit pattern does not indicate motive. There are good habits and bad habits. It seems people like Mike and Johniam have gotten into a bad habit of defending to the hilt a plagiarizing, pathological liar, money-grubbing thief and sexual predator and his con game of PFAL. This is an attempt to gaslight Grease Spotters - manipulate by psychological means into questioning their own sanity, analytical skills, decision-making ability, reality, etc. It is very telling that Mike would give a “bravo” to Johniam’s post… …Mike had to go waaaaaaaay back to a May 3rd 2007 post to bump this thread up for attention – the reason he says is it’s so closely aligned with the free will versus determinism thread – which I rebutted in a previous post - here - and is nothing more than a blatant attempt to act the part of a troll on this thread too.

Happy upcoming Thanksgiving, Greasespotters. I'm very thankful for the many insights I've gained at this site where so many of you have read my memoir: Undertow. This November I celebrate Undertow's 6th birthday. Time sure flies... A little background: When I was 16 years old, my mother passed away on the day before Thanksgiving. That trauma, I believe, made me (in part) vulnerable to Way recruiters' claims of teaching "the rightly divided word" two years later at East Carolina University. Flash forward: in 2016, my goal was to publish Undertow in honor of my mother just as Thanksgiving rolled around. With the support of many good folks, like some of you reading this post, I met that goal. Thanks again for your kind support and interest in Undertow! While supplies last: You can get a personalized, discounted copy of my second book, From the Porch to the Page: A Guidebook for the Writing Life. Send me a message here. Cheers, Penworks

Prepositions are the trickiest thing to learn in any language. They're trickier when someone's misusing them.

Sounds like a plan! I’d love to explore the duality of Jesus Christ and how that relates to the functionality of His various roles. And I also anticipate with keen interest delving into addressing some issues - assuming there is a Trinity. Don’t think anyone is going to reinvent the wheel – but it would be fun to have Grease Spotters asking some age-old questions like: what is the purpose of the Trinity ? how does the Trinity work together ?

I'm pondering whether to start a new topic in Doctrinal, T-Bone, that I think you'd find interesting. Kinda follows from my "Consider the Evidence" thread, and links well with your above post. As it's gone midnight now and I was tired a couple of hours ago, now is not the time to start something that could be controversial. Maybe tomorrow. Watch that space (not this one, LOL).