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Give me a little time and I could come up with some correlation Learned behavior is probably the easiest to find similarities with this thread. As the thread title states, religion demands acceptance of the unprovable. I think that’s true but oddly enough some folks are drawn to religion anyway – regardless of the demands – and that’s something I find fascinating. Why? I’m a sucker for You Tube ‘tutorials’ on cats and dogs. I remember one video on 8 or 9 things people don’t know about cats – that said cats meow to communicate something to people – and that it’s not usually used for cat-to-cat communication. Don’t know if there’s anything to that – but if it’s learned behavior it makes sense to me. We got our feral cat from a local animal shelter – he was about 8 months old. They told us he was a little shy being a feral cat but the person who brought the cat in remarked how friendly he was in getting handouts from the neighborhood. So, the cat discovered certain actions (like meowing) got him food – and now I’m on board with his learned behavior – so I’m trained too – whatever – maybe we both get something out of it – I earn my cat’s trust to be the best cat valet I can be. Maybe some things about religion are learned behavior. What do religious folks get out of it? In The Case for God by Karen Armstrong she says in most premodern cultures there were two recognized ways of thinking, speaking and acquiring knowledge – the ancient Greeks called them mythos and logos. Both were essential and considered complementary rather than in conflict with each other. Each had its own sphere of competence. Logos – reason – was the pragmatic mode of thought that empowered folks to function effectively in the world – forward-looking - always on the lookout to make efficient weapons, tools, better controls, invent and improve stuff. Logos was essential for the survival of our species. But it had its limitations – it couldn’t alleviate human grief or find meaning and purpose in struggles. That’s where mythos come in. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell came up recently on another thread. Armstrong made some references to The Power of Myth too. She said currently we live in a society of scientific logos – and in popular jargon a myth is something that is not true. But in the past myth was not a self-indulgent fantasy – and has been called a primitive form of psychology – designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche – to enter the labyrinth of their own minds and fight personal demons. Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of the mind. Myth would not be effective if people simply “believed” in it. It was essentially a program of action. The myth of the hero, for example, which takes the same form in nearly all cultural traditions, taught people how to unlock their own heroic potential. Later the stories of historical figures such as the Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad were made to conform to this paradigm so that followers could imitate them in the same way…Religion, therefore, was not primarily something that people thought but something they did. End of ‘excerpts’ from The Case for God ~ ~ ~ ~ As Christopher Hitchens said: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.” I like that. I found another cool quote by him on Christopher Hitchens Quotes (Author of God Is Not Great) (goodreads.com) : “Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything I no longer have a fundamentalists view of the Bible. I don’t look at the Bible as having a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. And personally, I find nothing in it that infuriates my mind. I try to understand it from its ancient cultural basis – folks trying to deal with the inexplicable. I like the freedom to investigate stuff for myself and consider other viewpoints. I may never get definitive answers on anything – but I keep at it anyway – because I keep figuring out there’s more questions to ask - and sometimes wind up reframing the problem (whatever the particular issue is that I'm exploring). Now going full circle – I found another Hitchens quote that ties it all together with what I’ve been talking about – religion, cats and dogs: “Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.” ― Christopher Hitchens, The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever This is freakin’ amazing – there’s at least two distinct religions practiced in our home – our dog thinks me and my wife are gods. And my wife and I practice the ancient Egyptian religion of worshipping our cat. think I'll check out some of Hitchens stuff.

You just proved Hitchins point didn’t you? With absolutely no evidence at all, you proclaim, “…things not seen are still very real.” What provable evidence do you have, other than having just read about in some book, or trusting in a soul you decided to harken to? Wierwille made known that god told him he, god, would teach him, VPW, the word like it had never been known since the first century if he, vpw, would teach it to others?, (alot of he pronouns in that sentence.) Can you show me the proof that god never told him that? Or to the contrary, show proof it is a true statement? Since neither is provable I can believe either one or dismiss either one, correct? The same can be said about Christ coming back to earth; of course, this assumes he departed the first time….another thread for another time. Other than reading in the bible about Christ coming back for his saints, what demonstratable evidence do you have collaborating it? None I submit. If you do please present it. What evidence do you have if you confess Jesus as lord and believe that he was raised by god from the dead, you will be be saved? Did you receive a congratulations card from on high to prove it? What evidence can you present that when a women looked back at something, she was turned into a pillar of salt? Did your Morton’s salt shaker say its ingredients were Lot’s wife? The bible claims you can do the works of Christ, so how many people do you know who choose to leave their fishing boats at home, and troll for fish as they strolled across the top of the lake? If that is too far fetched for you, how many sailors have you heard of, who’s ship was sunk, decided to walk away and head for shore? And at the same time assure their mates not to fear, but to also walk with them to safety? The list goes on and on as more verses are read.

I think you’re right…and oddly enough our cat is or rather was a feral cat. We adopted him 3 years ago. First 3 days I thought he was a mute. Then while I’m cleaning out his litter box he got on a chair nearby and meowed at me . I was floored. Now I’m a cat valet - he meows when he wants food or wants a window or door opened.

Looking back at all this frivolous activity: Craig, Don and Howard were three of wierwille's chosen misfits... considerably awkward at adjusting to the changing environment around them. They were appointed by wierwille at particular points relative to situations that he wanted to control. All three were yes-men with no leadership prowess amongst them..... at least, not in terms of leading others to greater heights. Craig, the jock who played second string football at Kansas University knew he was a Grade-A a$$hole.... er, athlete and set out to prove it every day. Not only was he THE spiritual athlete in that production, spirits in the athlete... er, Athletes of the Spirit... he made sports the center-right piece of his new foundational class The Way of Abundance and Power. That class was a major disappointment and belly flop within three years. Don was the most neutered of the three. He had his educational background to stand upon and was readying to work on his doctorate when his old man gave him a position he, seemingly, couldn't refuse. Quit your career in Michigan (or was it Wisconsin?) and come be the "Dean" of The Way College of Emporia. While there, he wrote his thesis paper on this project to get his doctorate. Besides being given the title of "Dean Don" in a "college" that didn't need a Dean...how did that that work out for Don? No wonder some referred to him as "Ding-Dong." Howard was the head "go-fer" to wierwille thru the decades. Whatever wierwille needed, Howard would go-fer it. Wierwille needed a brc to start his ecumenical work at the wierwille farmstead. Howard led the charge to build it (since Howard's background as a lumberyard foreman in Kentucky preceded him). Wierwille needed someone to drive the camper. Howard could do that. Wierwille needed a secretary-treasurer when his brother, Harry, passed away. Howard could oversee that. The incremental steps to rising to the "trustee level" of a cult. Yet, none of these men knew how to navigate the forces of change. They were entrenched in wierwille's machinery that badly needed overhauling to keep leading the thousands coming to twi. Aspiring men with academic pedigrees were stride-for-stride outpacing them and rather than make room for new leadership and growth, the "trustees" stymied their potential. Much like wierwille, the new trustees grabbed onto these reins of control even tighter... and within a matter of years, this "horse" was outta the barn running for the hills never seen again. Inept trustees begets an inept president's cabinet. .

One of the financial numbers as you know that was made public was the around $65 million in assets that is owned by TWI. A lot of this was left from the around 80% mass exodus surrounding VPs death. Much like the multi billion Mormon slush fund, TWI also made money in investments off of some of that money. Some of those assets would also be how they afford retirement and health benefits also. Two campuses were sold off - Indiana and Emporia. So the $$$$ from those assets are around also. Money in cults flows upwards. Restrictions to life in cults flow downwards.

Rocky, you are right of course.... other (manipulative) organizations DO THE SAME. But that's just it.... twi was NOT supposed to BE like other (worldly) organizations. After all, this was (drum roll).... "God's ministry." Why, wierwille staked his life and integrity on "standing for God."