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"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You understand what I just asked? VPW: I sure did and I gave you the proper answer. LCM: I asked, How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: Alright, Kurt? Kurt: In verse 15..... A few years later, VPW put oil on LCM's head. OIL!! (O-I-L) ---------------- I don't need an essay, a reverend, a doctor, a Bible, a Quran, a hippie, a socio-cultural aesthetic/moral sensibility, or a "class" to tell me that f*cking my friend's wife will hurt my friend and that raping my friend's wife will hurt my friend's wife. And it matters not in which era I live.

Godly sorry might be something to consider as well. Paul spoke about the godly sorrow the believers of the Corinthian church had after receiving Paul's first letter to them. Sorrow means to experience deep, emotional pain (sadness), i.e. severe sorrow (grief) which is probably why verse 10 says there's a worldly sorrow that produces death. 2 Cor 7:11 lists how much good came out of their godly sorrow: diligence/earnestness; clearing of yourselves (an apology); indignation/anger; fear/alarm; vehement desire/longing; zeal/concern and revenge/readiness to see justice done. Paul then says, "In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter." It's important to note that the word "guilt" is not used.

you mean my way corps ring doesnt decode correctly?

I think, maybe, we invented the secret decoder ring, ourselves, by perhaps trying to read something into the scriptures that the original authors never intended to convey.

Rosalie married shortly after high school (1958) to Rembert R. Rivenbark, Jr. Divorced him and by 1963.... she remarried. Rosalie Fox Shumate. Divorced James M. Shumate, Jr. in 1970. Rather than go back to maiden name Rosalie Fox.... she reattached with prominent name, Rivenbark. Rosalie F. Shumate .

Middle name. Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid. She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring. NDAs are telling. They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution. ”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”. That is what they want. The truth is not what they want.

This is a really good distinction. Godly sorrow is accountability for recognizing the standard of Gods law and our failure to hit the mark. Some of the AA steps are taken from here. Being earnest, apologies, zeal and concern for justice. The idea you can approve yourself clear in a matter. Guilt seems different - a dwelling and absorption into sin consciousness. Attaching to the emotions for much longer than it takes to “be clear in this matter”. Never being clear in the matter. For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”. As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on. My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.

The paper was squashed by wierwille himself in 1978! My wife and I were at Advanced Class 1978 - married couples were separated in sleeping quarters and in Twig placement. Tonto (my wife) got into an argument with the Twig coordinator who emphatically kept making the assertion that one could only become born again of the wrong seed by addressing Satan directly at an altar and saying something along the lines of “Satan you are my Lord.” As ridiculous and petty as this sounds the ‘report’ of this egregious argument went all the way up the mini-Way-Tree-of-Advanced-Class-’78 - and no surprise, was more fuel to add to the fire - Skyrider was a branch coordinator at the class and had mentioned on another thread TWI memories about the 8th corps guys who had gone rogue on a research paper - if I’m not mistaken this was the infamous adultery paper . At a branch coordinators meeting wierwille and Craig went on a tirade over any TWI-believer challenging wierwille doctrine and questioning leadership… …later they doled out another confrontational-rant to the rest of us at the Advanced Class going over the same infraction - challenging wierwille doctrine and questioning leadership... I think cult-leaders tap into the PT Barnum principle - have something for everyone…”I am disappointed in how little you believe the Word” says wierwille from the pulpit - and poor dumb schlubs like me who never feel like i measure up anyway to wierwille’s standards will automatically draw on memories of any recent failures, mistakes , shortcomings to support his assessment of my believing. …weird how a browbeating by cult-leaders can be ‘appreciated’ on different levels - branch leaders probably saw the main thrust was over the rogue research paper - and peons like me who felt it was mostly about my wife noting the lack of details in wierwille’s teaching on the nebulous unforgivable sin…so to sum up the message to my wife - coming straight from the top was "leadership is always right, you're wrong, so shut up". so make no mistake - wierwille squashed the adultery paper!

"In 1982 or 1983 Rev. Ralph Dubofsky and Rev. Vince Finegan came to me. Dr. Wierwille had asked them to do some work on the subject of adultery. Ralph and Vince wanted to know what I knew and if it would help them." OK, what I'm thinking is as follows.... A) vpw set the stage for adultery, in great detail and many varieties B) It was against vpw's interests to expose adultery in twi or end it. He set it up to use it. C) It's remotely possible that a sick vpw might have wanted a petty revenge on those whom he claimed ignored him- and one such way was to paint them as "adulterers" and leave out how vpw himself had been an adulterer and taught others to fornicate. D) It is more likely that RD and VF did tell J S they needed some work on the subject of adultery. It is NOT likely that vpw told RD and VF this. E) It is much more likely that RD and VF had 'stretched the truth" concerning this. They saw something was wrong, and sent JS, a researcher, to do the research. They sincerely and honestly thought it was needed, and that, if they said vpw wanted it, it would be given a priority and be done fast and well. So, I'm leaning in that direction. We know that vpw, in the whole,

The Bible itself is ONE BIG REMINDER of a lot of invisible spiritual stuff happening . I think your theories are more of an unnecessary risk than an advantage, because you insert your own opinion of who is winning, assume others have the same impotent life that you lead, and trivialize God to something less than sovereign and all-powerful, besides the fact there is usually an unhealthy fascination with the devil - much more so than what Scripture says about Christ disarming the enemy’s power and authority: 6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces a of this world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh b was put off when you were circumcised by c Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you dalive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. Colossians 2 NIV

Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns. “The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW And yes you bury your head in the sand when sexual immorality is brought up as a topic.

Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!

Oftentimes, if and when I get overly-critical of my involvement in this pseudo-Christian outfit that morphed into a cult.... I remind myself that God looks on the heart. He knows our longings, our desires, our inner thoughts. So, with that.... I thank Him for His grace and mercy and move on. .

Indeed.

This conversation on introspection and self-examination is a healthy endeavor to explore. Whether philosophically or spiritually, one is benefited greatly by this exercise to uncover the hidden things of darkness. Some things remain hidden in our lives until the passage of time. Without being overly-judgmental of our own lives, could it be that God has us on "the right path" even though we lament our tenure in twi? Could it be that until the passage of time, we were unable to receive, discern or examine the effects of standing before God without going through some "trials and tribulations" of our own? In reading the Church Epistles, I find that the Apostle Paul gives us large sweeping swaths of truth regarding 1) Legalism and 2) Liberty. On one side of the ledger, legalism in adherence to the law does not warrant one's own righteousness before God. Even with his bloodline and high credentials (a Pharisee of the Pharisees and as touching the law, blameless), Paul fell short of the righteousness given from God by faith. For indeed, it was in the power of Christ's resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings that opened doors of grace and mercy. On the other side is Liberty in Christ. Can one use this liberty as a license to sin? No, because in this liberty one might inflict harm on another believer by being a stumbling block to his faith. One is not to flaunt this liberty or be puffed up against another. Life in Christ must be in moderation else the trappings of the flesh, lusts and lasciviousness surface from the hidden darkness attempt to overtake this man or woman in their folly. Even though I was involved in twi for 20+ years.... there were several years (ie -- "fog years") that twi-activity was crawling along and we were raising our boys. During those times, we were engaged in life's simple activities and family time. Walks in the park, swing sets, slides, swimming pools, hugs and laughter .... living life. Other times, as years passed.... I think about fun activities with the believers. Snow skiing in Canada, hockey games, volleyball, basketball, movies, barbeques, etc..... enjoying the fellowship of others. So, when I approach this examination of "hurting others via twi-policies".... I try to give it some perspective through my years of involvement with twi. So, with some deeper perspective..... maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up with a few missteps or zealousness to "do good." Maybe, just maybe.... our tenure in twi has given us greater insight of youthful exuberance carried away by bad counsel. Could it have happened under another Christian organization or business endeavor? Probably. Look how much we gained through our experiences. As Rocky and others like to always point out.... you and I wouldn't be able to help others with insight and guidance had we not taken this pathway in life. We are the sum total of our experiences. Peace to all.

I found these quotes embedded in the Wiki article on confirmation bias. I love Russian literature, and these two sentences from Tolstoy articulate with such exquisite eloquence the inherent problem of confirmation bias. In his essay (1897) What Is Art?, Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy wrote: I know that most men—not only those considered clever, but even those who are very clever, and capable of understanding most difficult scientific, mathematical, or philosophic problems—can very seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as to oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed, perhaps with much difficulty—conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives. In his essay (1894) The Kingdom of God Is Within You, Tolstoy had earlier written: The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.