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God first love Roy

Great insight, Chockfull

My tendency would be to frame it a bit differently. I don't know if you read and listened to my spiel on "compensators" but there are rational and logical reasons for becoming involved in a cult or other highly legalistic church organizations, which has to do with the promise of greater rewards. The "problem" is that you are still deeply ashamed of your choices. I have done some things that I'm not particularly proud of, and while I have been shaped by those choices, I am not defined by those choices. Furthermore, I don't let someone else define me by my choices. When people do to me what your friend did, I actually enjoy telling them that it's me they're talking about. They are usually horrified. I know I am when I do it. Once someone commented about my pretty living room and I said it was my "Jehovah's Witness room." She told me she was a Jehovah's Witness. We had a good laugh over it, after I pulled my foot from my mouth. The truth is that you were able to turn away and move in a different direction. A lot of people can't say that.

Very few people are immune to the tug. Very few join an organization with the idea that using and abusing is part of the dynamic. Some people have no idea what that looks like, while some people have a very different idea of what that looks like. Now you know what it looks like to you. Do you still walk into those situations? Even if you do walk in, do you stay longer than you know you should? If you are able to stay away or walk away, then your time in TWI taught you what you needed to know and do to keep yourself safe.

I don't think being a little ticked off is a bad thing. It's being consumed by being ticked off which is the bad thing.

Geisha, for your own sake, find some meaning in it, even if the meaning is that some really bad decisions were made. Some lessons are hard learned and that's the reality. The important thing is to not give in to the self-defeating talk. Yes, it would be nice to be in a different place by now, but you aren't, and for that matter, neither am I. It would have been much cheaper for me to have finished college in the 70s, but I didn't until last year, and I'm still looking for work and have a lot of student loan debt. But I did it, and so did you. Chalk it up to being a late-bloomer. TWI didn't damage me deeply because I was already reeling from damage and was very sensitive to getting sucked into something that wasn't in my best interest. Had it been 2 or 3 years earlier, my story may have been very different. But by the time I signed the green card I had already made up my mind to not throw myself into anything where I would have to relinquish control. I caught on early that the deeper one got into TWI, the more control one had to relinquish. Back then, being the wet blanket to somebody's power trip was no fun, but I really couldn't see the benefit of letting others have their way with me, even if they were invoking God, so I didn't. I can think of far worse judgment calls than getting sucked into a cult and you did finally wise up. Some haven't.

Humiliated because you made some bad choices? Everyone makes bad choices. It's the ones who don't "owe" up to them that you need to watch out for. A lot of very good people were sucked in by the empty promises. Some were really sucked in. Some remain sucked in. I don't walk up to people and tell them I was in a cult, but I don't avoid the topic. I honestly believe it has given me compassion and a perspective that I might not otherwise have gained had I been a part of "orthodoxy" all along. As for "normal," everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

I have something to say to the "get over it" crowd. The scripture involved is I Thess 5:21 - "prove all things; hold fast that which is good". In the time I have been around these forums, those defending abusive groups like TWI have brought this argument up, that this site and forums consist of people who don't want to "get over it" and just want to keep rehashing old issues and being bitter. TWI current members and leaders view those on this site consisting of people that "hate the ministry" or want to "stay hurt" or are "bitter". Labeling people makes it easier to build prejudice, and prejudice is a great way to avoid contemplating the truth that a person or group of people bring up. To fulfill the scripture above in I Thess 5:21, two actions are required: 1) Prove all things 2) Hold fast that which is good Prove is a derivative of the greek dokimazo, which has common means of trial by fire, purification, and secular references to money changers who would not shave their coins and cheat their customers. To prove all things, behavior that is contrary to God's Word, God's love, God's intent for His children need to be examined, tried by fire, weighed and balanced. For TWI's leadership, this is what TWI members do not do. Because of the "caste" system in TWI, leaders hold themselves beyond judgement except to their employers. The BOD answers to nobody. Atrocities are swept under the carpet, lies are told and upheld, people are burned and their good reputations impunged and slandered, and anyone with an opinion different than the leaders is eventually blackballed. That is simply not proving all things. Nothing is proven, tested, tried with respect to the behavior and actions of leaders who place themselves above God's people. TWI members develop a "pollyanna" mentality where they are just going to focus on the positive and hope that if they ignore the negative it will go away. The second part of the verse is to hold fast that which is good - once things are proven and exposed and tried as in the first part of the verse, then one can assimilate the good into themselves and have it a beneficial part of them. Assimilating evil practices into one's self is not holding fast to that which is good. Here is the rub, TWI supporters. YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ALL THINGS, so you cannot hold fast to that which is good. The evil you knew about and supported, or learned about, that tarnishes your soul. It prevents honestly holding fast to the good because the evil was not confronted. In one sense the whole existence of GreaseSpot is to prove all things. It is to expose the evil in TWI and offshoots, and confront it. As members aren't subject to punitive retribution here like they are in TWI and offshoots, they are free to share of their accounts of what happened to them (which people still question), expose evil, and confront it. It is up to the responsibility of each member or poster on GreaseSpot to hold fast to that which is good. There are good experiences, people, scriptures, etc. that we encountered while in TWI. God desires us to integrate into our souls the good, while confronting the evil. Each person has to define for themselves what that means. You cannot judge for another soul which they are doing and say "get over it". The process has to be fulfilled for each person individually. It is a personal growth thing. So to the pollyannas the message is "prove all things". To the hurt and bitter, after proving all things, the message is "hold fast that which is good". We all choose which message we need at the moment, and it can change depending on where we are at for the moment.

God first hi George it to have join us love Roy

Boy that is true isn't it. . . we can spot it a mile away can't we? I tend not to look inward too very often. . . unless inward and upward. Even though it was a waste of time. . . I try to take what I can from it. . . kind of like total immersion language courses . . . . only we majored in dis-function. We are now proficient in the language of the insane. I really think some of those leaders were actually nuts. I have never regretted the good people I knew or the few good times I had. . . . that is a plus. . . .got the sweetest guy in the world out of the mess. . . but over all I give it low marks for productivity as a human being. LOL It is what it is. . . and yes, I think I am a wiser person for it. I Just think I could have wised up by avoiding it all and keeping clear of those kinds of people in the first place. People do. :) I used to cringe when the kids would ask me how daddy and I met. . . . my answer was always. . . "In a club" which is somewhat true and just has a better ring than in a cult. One of the ickiest moments I have had in the past few years is with a friend I went to bible study with. This woman is a hoot. We share the same name. . . look alike and have a blast together. . . went to a woman's retreat and laughed ourselves sick. She is a bit of a drinker and if you get a glass or two of Yellow Tail in her. . . she cuts loose. It is funny to see this little blonde tell a story. One night she related a story of her college days. She started talking about TWI and how they used to try and get them off campus. . . because people actually fell for this group and their "classes". I must have gone completely pale, but it made me realize I do have an odd past. . . and not one I am comfortable sharing. I never said a word. Good thing she was tipsy. . . she didn't notice. I really like this woman and admire her. . . as nice as she is. . . I would have gotten that "Oh" look. LOL It is nice to have a place to speak of TWI and people to share it with. It really is. . . .

I was another who had been booted before I learned of the rottenness in the system. Of course, there were occasional allegations, but nothing substantial. George

Well, I feel safer, knowing he's around! :) George

alot of my initial time with my current therapist was spent wondering why i did what i did as an adult after having grown up the way i did and i felt i should have known better than to be taken in by yet another con man over and over again in relationships and wasting so much of my precious time and so much of my energy and doing such stupid and sometimes rude and even mean things and being not a person i liked very much. it took me awhile to understand that my choices and my actions were to be expected given the environments i had been in. most people live in a bubble of their own world and they think and live in that bubble without perceiving much outside of that bubble. it's really quite "normal" and it's what keeps most people "sane" in their own minds and it explains alot about how people can watch someone being robbed or something and just watch without doing anything and without it we'd all be bleeding hearts on street corners giving everything we had to every cause under the sun and freaking out over every newscast we heard or saw. but it also trains our thinking patterns and our decision making processes and if that bubble is part and parcel of an abusive system then we take on those thinking patterns and those decision making processes even if we think we know better or think we should have known better. i used to hate myself so much because when men i was in relationships with got violent with me i got violent back and i couldn't understand what made me any different from them until my current therapist showed me that there's a huge difference between defending myself and being a violent person and a huge difference between surviving an insane situation and being an insane person and a huge difference between making bad judgements and making the judgements that i felt were the only ones that would help me survive in the moment.

I know exactly what you are talking about, and you're right about the audience.

Sadly, I probably was your twig leader. :) Tzaia, Robin Williams has a great line which sums up my thoughts on my time in TWI quite aptly. . . . I was violating my standards faster than I could lower them. I hope I never get to the place where I am not at least a little "ticked off" . . . . and if that is what is meant by getting "over" it in the initial post. . . than I will pass. . . . LOL

There is definately matter and antimatter in the hole! :) gc edit to add smiley

it took me a long time to be able to even hear the words "look for the good" or "keep the good" or "surely some good happened so remember those good times" as geisha and a couple of others can tell you that even now i have a hard time with these words but how i look at things now is that the good was in me. my current therapist spent many months helping walk through situations and decipher what i was thinking and feeling and knowing what was right from wrong versus what others were putting out and were doing that was pure bs. when people have been abused for a long time their own inner voice cannot be heard by themselves except for the pain cries and fear screams. that's probably what's happening with this person and i'll bet if she can get with a good therapist that will help her find that voice of hers that was silenced so viciously when she knew that something was wrong and she knew she needed to be taken care of then she could probably also get the kind of therapy that helps a person nurture themselves into wholeness. that's the stage i am in now and it is really cool and i'm learning so much and i'm changing so much and i feel like i'm finally becoming a woman and becoming the woman i always wanted to be. but if all that is coming out of a person's mouth is "whining" and "complaining" about abuse then most likely that's coming from deep unvoiced pain.

for me it really was. instead of hiding from the cult experience, I was then able to start dissecting it and disentangling myself from it. once I got past that, I was then able to start recovering from the damage done by my marriage and my upbringing. still a work in progress :)

Is that lint in my belly button or hair? We still can't agree.

God first hi geisha779 and waysider it nice you two my friends love Roy

Yes, his success with the weight loss regimen should enable him to leap tall buildings with a single bound.

Because now he is going to look really hot in that blue suit and red cape!

I so agree that many good people got sucked in. . . . many who post here. The one thing I really like here is that I may be judged by what I write. . . but, I will never be judged for being in a cult. This is the only place I speak of it. . . or to people from here. If it were only as simple as "bad choices". . . however, some made are irrevocable. . . and that might be the case anyway. . . but the reasoning I used borders on the insane. . . and that is a tough one to take. It really is. . . Right now I have a group of young men and women meeting in my house. . . in a few days they are off to Moldova to bring aid to an orphan camp. They are doing this on their own initiative. . . they went last year too. They have raised nearly 70 Grand from car washes to sponsors, working hard all year for this trip. They are making a true difference in the lives of others. . . and ORPHANS on top of it!! What did I do at that age? Went WOW and was a family dictator coordinator. Do you realize women girls were subtly encouraged to entice men to fellowship? What the heck was wrong with me? What an ugly waste of time all of it was. It took me years to catch up on my education and I will be paying that puppy off forever. Retirement won't be a picnic unless I step it up a notch. . . I own a home, but hey. . . that was a fluke. Too many years in that mess and too many years getting over it. I own up to it to myself. . . but it still is what it is. . . an embarrassment. No, we actually DO hide it from people. Just too hard to explain. . . . and not your garden-variety youthful indiscretions. :) But that is me. . . I am glad you can gain from it. . . you seem like a strong person. . . I try to remember the good people from it and the few good times.

It is not something I would put on my resume. The few times I have tried to relate my experience to those outside the land of cults. . . I got that "and you seemed so normal" look. My kids were little when we left, but my daughter remembers certain people and fellowships. We always told her it was a bible group and left it at that. . . . but when she was 15 we went and picked her up at the airport. . . . . she had been in England for the summer. . . instead of "Hi Mom and Dad". . . "I missed you". . . it was "Uncle Rick said you guys were in a cult". That was a fun ride home. Liberating? No. . . I am still fighting with abject humiliation.

Just the usual things, is a hole an absence of matter or does the earth define the hole . You know the usual stuff.

Isn't doing so liberating?

Send her this way. There are more than a few people here that she could share experiences with and perhaps get some perspective, or at least have someone else to talk to besides you. Good book I'm reading right now - "Let Your Goddess Grow" Gets into a lot of that holding on stuff.

I'm trying to figure out the purpose. Four hours of what probably was hard labor and 4 hours of "study". Free room and board and a certificate of completion in return. Did these people need experience in working on a farm? Was the farm actually self-sustaining? How were the bills paid? Did people pay to get into the program, or were they subsidized? What happened if someone got hurt, or sick? Did they have to provide their own health insurance? Did they have to sign a "hold harmless" agreement?

How many were in that naughty rag tag zero corps? I love that property they have. . . . I own an old farmhouse and some acreage. . . . it is a whole bunch of work. I would love to have some free labor. . . I actually paint my own dang house. Should have started a program. . . but then again. . . . I can't even get my own kids to consistently cut the grass. . .

gc, black eyed peas are for luck and collard greens are for dollars. I plant enough collard greens the end of August to last us all winter long. Oh, honey everybody, I have maters and more maters. There is no greater delicacy than a homegrown tomato sandwich. So far, I have blanched and put in the freezer 10 quarts of greenbeans and 4 quarts of squash. We have to quit eating the tomatoes so we have some to can. There was bushes of Dill, Basil, Italian parsley, Tarragon, and Thyme to sell at the farmer's market. Because the new herb garden was so prolific I decided on a whim to give it a try. All the herbs were sold. All of the cut Zinnias and sunflowers were snatched up within minutes. All this has me thinking bigger and better for next year.

I checked the first two options in the recommendations. I am highly in favor of further education be it college, auto mechanic school, etc. But I know of people who have been quite successful and they had no formal training. One runs a marina on Long Island and another runs a huge aquarium store and distributorship of fish and equipment.