Leaderboard

VP better honest to goodness be feeling those flames right about now. I mean it. When we are so far removed from a church.....that we have to go to the DICTIONARY to find out what the word means....as Christians. That man is going to pay. I, for one, will not let him steal anything else from me.....and that includes being a part of a group of Christians who meet together to worship, sing, pray and learn. I won't let his perversion of something good rob me of that belonging to the body at large and my smaller assembly in being with the body of my church. He took enough.

Okay, well forwarned is forearmed, etc. Nevermind that he calls himself Rabbi. Nevermind that he is another huckster with a "doctorate" from a non-accredited college. Nevermind that he calls his "academic journal" peer reviewed when in fact it has not been reviewed by anyone. Nevermind that he has appointed himself the 16th president of the Nazarenes (a sect that hasn't exited in 1,864 years give or take), much like Vic was going to teach us the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century). Nevermind that he and two of his buddies claim to be running a Yeshiva (Jewish School) even though he never even graduated from a Jewish Seminary. Is any of this starting to sound familiar to you Lovematters? The fact that he has had a run-in with TWI does not mean he is full of honesty and integrity. And yes, he is free to talk about whatever he wants to talk about. And I am free to expose his con for what it is, unless the moderators decide to tell me otherwise. And you are free to think of James how you choose to. You are free to look at the links that readily expose his con and dismiss them or you are free to ignore them altogether.

Yes, I litter up the About the Way section with topics....you guessed it, you rocket scientist you......here comes......About the Way. Even though this thread ties in somewhat. It's now pretty much an extension of the Jim Doop fiasco. Anything else you have to say, just consider it you having the last word. I am done, again. Except I mean it now... I really mean this. I respect you and your right to "church" wherever and with whomever you wish. I also wish you all the best. God Bless.

Geisha, I'm not going to get on you for sharing your Christian experience. It's a genuine experience. I am genuinely happy for you that you have found a genuine small group of Christians that you can rebuild your life with and relationship with Christ with post TWI. It sounds to me like your church has been a vital step to you in your recovery, and you are a proponent of that type of relationship to others because it's helped you. Those are good things. -CF

Oh, it wasn't a sincere question? Sounded like one to me. Silly me....I must have answered sarcasm. Please continue littering up the place yourself. The last and only time I started a thread was months ago. Carry on.Church/ Christians....crazy thought on my part.

For some, going to church is a wonderful thing. It offers community, a place to worship, a place to study, a place to give. However, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that requires one to attend church. I go to the synagogue when I am moved to do so. I am far more centered around my family, my immediate community and my friends. I am not particularly comfortable with joining a religious organization. Been there, done that. I have no desire to build my sense of community, my friendships, etc. upon little more than a common belief system. I want more common ground with my community. I want more diversity in my life. I want exposure to vastly differing opinions and beliefs. I also do not want to feel contrained to a particular doctrine. I do not want to fear expressing a differing point of view regarding God, morals, ethics, rituals, etc. That said, when I first left TWI, I attended a Vinyard Church for a time. I chose it specifically because I had already met the minister and he knew of TWI, what they were about, what they taught, etc. I was somewhat comfortable there, because I didn't have to explain my background, it was already understood. It was a very peaceful experience for me and I met some very kind people.

Yes, agreed. Actually at one point reading 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse' in the section they are describing Pharisees, it totally was line for line the behavior of the BOD. I started checking out also some of the manners and customs books on Pharisees. It's really interesting. One example - where Jesus confronts them on the korban - or not taking care of their elderly parents because the money was a gift. The Pharisees set up internal barter systems like that to exempt themselves from tithing on goods, from being taxed on goods, and from laws like that. It totally reminded me about how Frau Q and the Panamanian dictator move more and more to use others to do their dirty work. They set up an inner circle within a circle. The Cabinet is like that. The BOD is like that. No more direct contact. They have others slaughter the scapegoats.

How did we get from the idea of ecclesia to be gleaned from its uses in history and the Bible to what it means to "go to church" today? It isn't simple or easy to tease apart the strands. Right now, I'm reading Augustine's The City of God. I've got A.D. 381 by Charles Freeman and The Eusebians by David Gwynn in the queue. Hebrews 10:24&25 say, "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more as ye see the day approaching." But what does "the assembling of ourselves together" mean? Does it meaning fighting desperately to stay awake while some speaker drones on endlessly, like an in-residence Corps lecture? Does it mean a whole bunch of people reading mindlessly repetitious lyrics off a projection screen, set to a mindlessly repetitious tune? I think not. There were no mass-marketing super-churches in the first century. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with a mass-marketing super-church. I go to one myself from time-to-time, because I like some of the small group activities associated with it. In my opinion, the "assembling of ourselves together" in the first century was more like what we might call a small pot-luck dinner. The value of assembling ourselves together comes from the personal interactions, not from being a fungible, card-carrying member of one particular subgroup of the body of Christ. Love, Steve

No problem. I'm over the argument. I think that some of our disagreement is due to using the same terms to talk about quite different things. I started a couple threads to clarify terms and facilitate the free exchange of ideas around it.

Man made meaning anything Christ or God has not established. Did Christ set the Baptist church apart from the Pentecostals? Did God form the 7th day Adventists and not the non-denominational local group? They are all man made in that God formed the people, Christ leads them all and has not assembled them separate from one another, that was man's doing. Man's work. Man made. Yes, men print the bible. Even men translated the bible. And yes, there are errors in all such things man-made, including the translations. Did God or man set the structure... You tell me. God certainly called us all together unto one body.. What does man do? Instructions not given by God are certainly man made. Why should I follow men instead of God? Or why should I call men's instructions not given by God, as if they were? Is that not what happened in TWI? Every good work shall give account for itself whether it is of God or not. But I will not judge, except by their fruit. Men do many things they believe is "of God" when in reality it is not. I am guilty of this myself. I'm sure God brought many wonderful people together who are part of Christ's body, but only to do His purpose. Which goes back to again like I said before.. If we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. As long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help brought together by God for His purpose...

How does one "go to church", if we are the church?! So is there something in the scripture that defines what your "church" looks like? And what exactly defines a "home bible study" to you that does not define a church? To me it looks like you're trying to define something and laying a burden on the body that even our Lord has not laid.. Meeting with one another.. Sure.. But it seems like you are trying to define that meeting with words not uttered by our Lord for a reason.

How exactly are you defining "churches"? Divisions, denominations, groups, schisms, buildings, or the one body? *shrugs* I guess for me personally, I don't acknowledge any sort of divisional structure within the body of Christ. That includes labels of doctrinal beliefs that divide one group from another, or one of a myriad of practices within the "Christian" community. If I use the word church, it to me defines those who seek God and His ways. How they define Christ (one, not one, etc) has very little relevance with me. Ones doctrinal stance has no bearing on my view, since by their works, you can tell those who seek God's ways, and those who don't. And since those who seek God can be found in just about every church/denomination/group I've ever seen, then there's no sense in me making a big deal about who one is with (INCLUDING TWI).. So yes, I even include many in TWI part of the church. Abuse, like that found in TWI and many other schisms acting as the body, I don't believe is anything unique to even just Christianity. It can be found in many workplaces, families, nations, political parties, and social clubs. People pledge allegiance to so many things that they think is "godly" that end up taking advantage of them. I do believe that finding those whose lives show forth fruit, God's love, God's ways, I do think they are extremely helpful. They are a part of the church. God's church. I wouldn't say they are mandatory but they are helpful. And I also believe that they are just as helpful in your day to day life as a friend helping you stay on the right path. But if we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. They can be of help as long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help..

In fact behaving in this fashion, which is what many do continually to remain in TWI, in essence just pushes the emotional trauma downstream. You can build a fantasy world for yourself where everything is beautiful, but if it is not reality then that which is repressed will come back stronger and with more force. This is how people have nervous breakdowns. I have actually discussed this topic at length with psychologist friends. Leaving TWI is very much like PTSD. The emotional trauma is very real, even if it doesn't involve the atrocities of war that veterans experience. I would almost say that the vast majority of people leaving TWI experience at least a minor form of PTSD. Recovery mentally and emotionally are elements that need specific attention. Otherwise the recovery period stretches out even longer. I honestly probably had some of that trigger recently in some of my arguments on this forum. Sometimes things get triggered and you have emotions and you don't know why they are still there. For me I've learned some of the things that trigger me is when I feel that fellow Christians judge me and try by their words to bring me under a false spritual authority that bypasses my direct prayer life to God and tries to dicatate to me what I should do. I should just walk away and let people have their opinion. But that's what triggers do - bring up behavior that is not always rational. And yes it happens even years later.

I don't think it should weigh you down Katie. I think the reason for those verses is the temptation of not needing God when we have plenty. But, God is able to prepare people's heart for wealth and to be able to handle it. It sounds, from your posts, like you do love and need the Lord. It sounds like you do serve Him with what He has blessed you with. Wealth isn't always a blessing. Just look at people who have no need of God because they have all they could ever want. But, I really don't think that is the case with everyone....they just recognize their need for Him in other ways.... There is nothing wrong with enjoying the good things God has given you.....seems to me you are someone who can handle it.