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In the beginning, CES was very open to reading other people's ideas and to open dialogue. JAL sold all his TWI stuff and I don't recall seeing any of it in his house or at the office. Then little by little the talk stopped. SP was gone to seminary along with RD and RB. Along comes JWS and MG. It wasn't until (relatively) recently that I found out why RD and RB left. They were just gone. In MG's office, the shelves were full of books that one would have never seen in a wayfer's home. I perceived MG as sort of a mystic. We talked about everything and that was such a relief after not being able to openly disagree in TWI. One time JAL told me he thought TWI had 70% of its doctrine right. I told him I thought it was closer to 70% wrong. I urged all of them to critically examine every belief they had. As I proofed their books, I challenged several of their conclusions that held to TWI doctrine and a few of my conclusions made it into their books. They were, at one time, very open to discussion. I didn't attend CES fellowships after the Momentus blowup, because as best I could see, Momentus was a sort of fast track to corp mentality, and that was something I could do without. I don't know why they latched onto that as something that would be good for CES, other than it felt familiar. Apparently the 4 page hold harmless agreement didn't set off any alarms. It was at that time I started questioning their judgment as a group. After that, I really have no idea about what was taught in fellowships. I wasn't interested in knowing. I pretty much stuck to their reading material. I started seeing whiffs of personal prophecy, but I never asked them to speak over me, nor did I let them when they offered. No one pressured me. I did not really start thinking WTF until DG made the decision to move here. I was told that he was coming to shake things up. Not being entirely sure what that meant, I stayed around. By the time he arrived, I was spending a day every week in the home office. That was when I started seeing the group for what it was and what it was becoming. I warned MG about it. Had I known what was really going on with JAL and his wife, I would have warned him as well. Even without knowing the details, I had cautioned all of them about using each other for personal and marriage counseling. Now I believe that it was an overall disdain for outsiders that caused this wariness about going to professionals for counsel, and set them up for devouring each other. JAL honestly sees himself as a great teacher, and like any good salesman, he is relentless in his pursuit.

Why should Rosalie and TWI encourage "speaking up?" hmmmmmm? I have a couple of reasons I can think of... (and please pardon my conspiracy thinking on the subject - my brain has been wired this way after almost two decades of living in the environment of a controlling CULT...) How could encouraging "speaking up" and "questioning" in The Way International further the purposes of Rosalie and TWI? 1. By encouraging "speaking up" and "questioning" The Way International and Rosalie engender trust amoung new people and the rank and file believer. Have a question, new person? Well, ask away! We'll answer all your questions... see, you can trust us! Answer the easy questions, gain a little more trust... soon people don't even bother questioning because they believe the leadership and the ministry they fellowship with. They have become THE authority on the Bible and God. And since they are THE authority on the Bible and God, people don't feel the need to have questions anymore... the trust has been built. This keeps the money flowing in - through classes and tithes and abundant sharing. BUT, the all important APPEARANCE that speaking up and questioning are ENCOURAGED is still intact, even though the questions don't even come into people's minds much anymore. Too long on this track of thinking, and TWI takes the place of the Bible and God... it's all based on TRUST. 2. By encouraging "speaking up" and "questioning" The Way International and Rosalie easily identify and remove those that would cause others to question. Sounds like your friend is in this category, OldSkool. Your friend had enough independent thought to begin to question the methods of TWI and Rosalie... And since he still didn't buy the lies he was marked out as a "troublemaker" who didn't trust TWI. (Remember, TWI by this point has replaced God by "representing" Him through being THE authority on God/The Bible.) Your friend couldn't be trusted. I mean, why in the world would you WANT to not trust GOD, who set up the "powers that be" within the body? Well, if you can't trust God, then most believers don't think they can trust YOU... and so the questioner who speaks up becomes shunned. This is pretty handy for Rosalie and her lap-dogs... because now no one will be contaminated by the independent thought of the questioner who spoke up. All in all, it's a pretty neat trick they have going for them. Not sure if they planned it that way, but it is sure how it works. I know, because I have been the one who trusted (#1) so much that I shunned my own family - thought they were evil and that they would contaminate my walk with God. How far from the truth that was! Then later I began questioning and speaking up myself... and I found out about #2. *edited for grammar.

Or if you like Pink Floyd's "Us and Them", apparently. :)

Thanks for the negative mark. My popularity was getting to my head. lol

I never noticed the + or -. It's nice to know I have an excellent rating, for what ever that means. I also noticed that a few who disagree with my comments have a very negative rating.lol Thanks to all that agree with me. It's been a long time since I have been active here at GS. The last two years I have laid back and found other boards that are more to my way of thinking but I always come back here. I have been around since WayDale.

I think it's determined by the plus or minuses that are at the bottom of each post. If you spend a lot of time in the basement ( Politics and Tacks) your reputation would probably be very good or pi$$ poor. basically it's a popularity contest.

I certainly do not see it as an instruction book. But I don't puke garbage all over those who might either. u dunno

Now, George. You know perfectly well that this is the reason PFAL was given to Wierwille, via theopneustos.

Yea but I have to wonder how much ended up in the food chain and what the overall implications of that could be.... I for one love New Orleans seafood but I know that Ill be thinking twice before eating anymore anytime soon....Ive already done more than my share of 'experiments' with ingesting chemicals for one lifetime. I have no desire to be a guinea pig yet again

Well as we've heard here at GS many times, the key apparently to fixing anything in the US of A is free markets, deregulation, and lack of government oversight and interference. :unsure: :wacko: Surely BP will do the right things and the problem will correct itself if we leave them alone long enough --- or so seems to say about half the country except when something like this happens when then they remain oddly quiet. If I had a few pints of Gunness in me, Im pretty sure I could think of a thousand things the govt could do but chances are that they already are doing anything that I could think of but I havent heard of it. Im sure there are all sorts of conspiracy theories out there about shutting down the oil industry but its just not feasible, America drinks oil like a drunken sailor spends money. Even though every President since Nixon has screamed about the dependence on Oil imo it will still take a generation or two at aminimum to wean the country off oil and develop some other useful source to fill the energy needs. The moratorium is just that, a moratorium to let these companies and the oversight people get their sh!t together. Hopefully they are using the time to design and implement blow out preventers that actually work more than 50% of the time and developing technology that wasnt designed by Groucho Marx to clean up accidental spills. (Im no chemist but I just dont see how pouring millions of gallons of toxic chemical dispersants into the Gulf somehow magically cleans up the water...Unless I missed that day in school where they taught poison is cleaned up by...more poison!) Anyway--no slight on the pubcrawlers intended-I'd be right there with them if I could Personally I think its an great opportunity for the folks at Bounty Paper Towels to come up with something--They're the "Quicker Picker Upper" , which is exactly what we need right about now Cheers

Such as? I dont think that it is a question that Americans would help if they had the first clue what to do...If there is any disaster anywhere Joe and Jane America are always right there...digging people out of rubble, sending supplies, money, support, doctors..whatever is needed....but this circumstance it isnt quite so clear. I know Im at a loss and Im sure alot of other people are about what exactly they can do about a broken pipeline in the middle of an ocean miles below the sea. Im not an engineer and have no expertise--Even cleanup and volunteer opportunities are being controlled because of the heavy toxicity and potential health hazards to those who would normally be rushing to volunteer lest it put another disaster on top of this one. About the best I can come up with personally, other than hoping they shut the friggin thing off, is heading down to the Gulf and spending some money on things that I probably really dont want and really dont need at the Mom and Pop shops along the coast that have been hard it. Im goin down for a couple of weeks after the 4th to scope it out and do just that. I know its not much but its the best I can come up with to add my little piece to a big puzzle-- Thats all I got--If you, or any of the other Irish pubbers have any other ideas--Im all ears. Really. (Why o Why couldnt it have been a Guinness spill??)