Ham

No kidding. When I left the "ministry", they tried to roll out the red carpet for my kids. Soooooooooo nice, so polite. Unsuccessful though, kids saw what they did to people before they changed their skins. In the evolution of cults, they have marked themselves for extinction, mainly because they refuse to change. Kids get smarter, and it takes a smarter, bigger and better cult to attract a young following. Trying on different colors of sheep skins doesn't work so well. "well, if I try on a cute pink skin, maybe they'll come.." Same old wolves, same old tricks.

Yeah. I think what we are dealing with is the ego of man here.. Really. God is a LOT bigger than a little organization somewhere, in the middle of Indiana, or in a corn field in Ohio.. The organization in itself, in the large scheme of things, is not really THAT important. Without it, the bible will be there tomorrow, the sun will rise- chickens will crow.. dogs will bark.. kids will play.. in short, the world will not just stop in a moment of sillence, a tear in it's eye.. At the end of the day, there will still be a God.. without the help, or even hinderance for that matter, from an ORGANIZATION. The world isn't going to fall into utter darkness at it's demise. I think priorities are all in the wrong place. Why be afraid?

I'm sure they are doing SOMETHING, quietly, behind closed doors. So much for "living my life as an open book.." As a follower, I wouldn't feel very comfortable, waiting for the future of MY "ministry" being decided in this fashion. Especially being decided by the same people who brought it to this state. I think people live under the illusion that the future of God's word is at stake here. There are no "losers", at least as the flock is concerned, unless you choose. There really is a life outside of that organization.

It's pretty ironic, they claim to be bound by the word of God, and in the end, they are bound by the word of the lawyers. Kinda pathetic.

from http://www.cephasministry.com/momentus_3.html Sounds like "lockbox" to me.. Sounds like the vey corps "training", at least in later years. If this is NOT what happens, I'd like to hear from a "participant". Oh, forgot, you swore an oath not to reveal.. So much for "it's a nice program, but not for everybody.." In my own opinion, if somebody put on an application for training and experience momentus, or lifespring, or one of the clones, I WOULD NOT HIRE THEM. Look what "they" did to CES.. You have a group that has taken this little gem of a seminar, banded together, and it is documented they badgered people to take it also. So superior, so.. elite, so much "better"- and they have the keys to the joint. My opinion- the only way you guys are REALLY gonna fix that place is to clean house, top down.. don't know if that can happen, can't vote at least three of them out.. same as der vey.. I don't think a few "reforms" over a couple of issues or grievances will even come close to what needs to be done. I would like to be proven wrong..

"I think I see spit flying" Gruesome. Unsanitary.. I hope he flossed..

http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark87.html Sound like one of loy's abusive tirades? Nope. This is how they do business in one of the sister organizations of momentus. Maybe loy should apply for the position. Could claim he has plenty of experience.. more: And people pay for it? well, I did too at one time. Sounds like a session or two in a couple of classes I paid for in der vey. I had a few "fellowship" meetings like this.. Why in God's name, would ANYBODY want to go back to something like this.. Must satisfy some inner need. I really think people have developed a need for self induced pain.

Official Website: http://www.loons.com/ Lance Parrish is the manager.

I don't know if I would characterize it as losing trust in God, with the failures of these institutions, as such. I think a lot of us found God AFTER we left, or were unceremoniously booted out. or the organization just plain failed. Perhaps some lost a trust in what they thought to be God- a God that could only be experienced or understood by examining the bible under a microscope, and cutting very carefully along the dotted line with a rather sharp razor blade. Only those "qualified" could really do it properly.. And the rest of the sheep generally were not aware that they were being served mutton. I think the REAL losers are the ones that know it's mutton, and just don't care.

I'm probably a little Irish.. anybody wearing green around here?

If you haven't for a while. Graphics change here once in a while..

I had a political science professor that looked at the women, said, "ya know who the majority is in this country? Why don't you just take over.."

Yep. Like someone else said, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..

:)

A three day seminar. Just three days.. What in God's name can you do to people in three days, to force such a change.. My personal observation- only three categories of people I've observed that have come out of that thing. 1. Moderately damaged. Gone off the deep end or attempt suicide, end up in an institution for awhile. These became the program's worst critics. 2. Mildly damaged. They are just quiet about it, and the experiences, and won't really speak out against it for one reason or another. Rare instances, may gave gotten a little good along with all the nonsense. These are the guys who say they may have gotten something, but CAN'T RECOMMEND IT. 3. SEVERELY DAMAGED. These I think are the worst. They are the self-appointed self-help "gurus", who espoused the training in the program like it was the Word of God. They recommend and push the program, despite the fact that the recruit may not "be all there" when they come out. Egotistical, arrogant- loudmouthed behavior only worse after the program than before. It is said you have to be a loud, overbearing, egotistical SOB to be the one to "live" in the lifeboat ordeal.

I am not among those who question or deny Jesus's qualifications. I DO have an issue with corrupt MEN however. People have been made a commodity of, and have been traded from "ministry" to "ministry". People have been so conditioned to cut themselves off from the rest of the body- the mere mention of the word "trinity" in a church causes almost literal pain for some folks. Sorry, can't go there.. possessed ya know.. I think it is a Pavlovian response. Ring the bell, shock the dog. Ring the bell, shock the dog. After a while, just ring the bell, and the dog will still jump without the shock. Qualified, alright.. right out of a high school psychology textbook.

One more thing. Why is it- someone who claims to be an engineer, and has only a B.A. in HISTORY.. or a man who claims to have a cure for a horrible disease, claims he came up with it independantly, and it is a hoax.. we unabashadly don them with the title "fraud". But take the same guy, throw some holy water, or bible verses on his "endeavor", and it is practically automatically above reproach and suspicion in the minds of some. Why? What's the difference? I guess it is the "loving" thing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Or is it?

Honestly- I've NEVER read a gospel account where Jesus instructed people to beat pillows, screaming "mommy mommy mommy" Never. Paul or Peter never did either. Only pillow I even know of in the new testament was the one Jesus slept on in the back of the boat.. No seminars to make people more aggressive.. No practice sessions of "real" life, throwing people out of a lifeboat.. No "prophetic counciels" sorting through piles of supposed "prophecies" of ugliness.. and using them to defame and discredit other "brethen".. to "protect the MINISTRY".. what are people thinking?

It's your opinion, but I wouldn't compare the false prophecies, counter false prophecies of J.L. M.G. et al, with their despicable treatment of the brethren to the actions and teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. A wolf by any other name is still a wolf. Sorry I won't salivate. The bell doesn't work anymore. I found my brain, and it still works. And don't say Jesus didn't have qualifications. "This is my beloved son, hear ye HIM".

I think that may be the whole point, rascal. Lazy. For some, there is a choice, hard work and study, or easy money. And some of these jokers, to get them to even consider honest work, is near impossible. Why? I think it's the same thing I heard Ross Perot say about the plight of so many sixteen year old crack dealers- they just can't make the same kind of living working at McDonalds. And school is too hard for them, so they say. No instant gratification the honest way. You're not gonna persuade them otherwise with small talk; the money is just too easy. It doesn't take much skill, effort, education or training to be a thug. I know that good people can freelance their way into doing something godly, AS A PROFESSION, AS A JOB, praise God for them, but I think they are the exception. I think it is way to easy to throw "holy water" on it, and call it a "ministry" or such, claim that they have the power, and demand a following. It's instant gratification. Some offshoots already had it made. They found a properly conditioned, otherwise unocupied bunch of people that left the vey, or kicked out, just looking for something to do. Ring the right bell, use the right catch-phrases, "here boy, comere, it's da word, da word.." and people come running, salivating. I don't know if that was what they had in mind, but that was the effect, nonetheless. People are soooo afraid to let go of some of these groups.. I was too, but I eventually learned how to feed myself. And it isn't really all so bad.

Should have left it buried under the fountain..

Yeah, it's like CES was the head of TWI in cryostasis.. somebody ignored the warning label and thawed it out..

"Blame the devil" I think it's kinda like watching a wolf ripping through the same flock, time and time again.. the devil sits back, laughing.. "have at it boy, I'll keep taking the heat.."

I used to think this too. But when the SAME kind of people, kept doing the SAME kind of evil and abuse, where is one to draw the line.. the devil makes too easy a scapegoat, in my opinion. It's too easy to crush God's people with callous disregard, and simply say "just forgive, the devil made me do it, besides, my "package" is the greatest, keep the money coming.." I think the "blame the devil" concept is often used to enable the abuser, to abuse again, and again, and again..

I think you are confusing forgiveness, and common sense. According to Mark Twain, a cat burned sitting on a hot stove, will not sit on it again. You can yell at the cat, telling it how evil it is, how unloving it is to exclude the hot stove from full sharing in its life. But despite passionate pleas for love and forgiveness, and to let go of its "negative" painful "baggage" in its memory, it just won't listen. Oh, the pain... So, ignoring the fact that those who supposedly have "da power" are living a broken life, not unlike the rest of us, have the same bodily functions, and put their pants on the same way in the morning, despite the claims, promises, and innuendo otherwise, let's just put down our "differences", and set upon the stove once again..