alfakat

yeah, john, by 84 I am sure he was not consulted on much anymore....

Oaks queried "How much of the crap that went on "on the field" did Wierwille know about? Sometimes I read accounts of teachings and counselling that deviated from what was taught in PFAL, or actions that contradicted what Wierwille espoused publically." remember, vic taught stuff one way at raca, sometimes different to corps or clergy groups. He was a master at the secret doctrine stuff. I would say early on that he knew pretty much what happened on the field. After 76/77/78 I believe he was less aware of things first hand. Post-82 he probably was more and more out of the loop. But he certainly had set the tone and backed up the actions of the leadership from the 1rst corps on. The idea promoted on this board by some that vic did NOT set the tone of the leadership -- is BOGUS. He was at turns incredibly charming and an insufferable bully. If you were not there, YOU DO NOT KNOW. Many, enough to know, were.... Kork-Nazi-ism increased at a geometric rate post-raca 78. Why??? I don't know but the fact that it did was noticed by myself and all of my compatriots that I knew in the kork...of course, those who were among the Nazi element noticed nothing wrong in the slightest....

well, Ali has a legit excuse -- what is loy's?????? -->

not quite, pe...Bob and Anne H*nan were married 3 or 4 years before they went into the 8th corps. They were limb coord. of Maine circa 82-85 or so. Great folks. Her sis, Beth and husband whose name is eluding me right now, last name H*lgevold, were also 8th corps.

wadda klown -- your act is getting as tediously boring as Mike's is...why not climb down off your high horse and give up your crusade for the legacy of vp...it will stand or fall w/o all or any of us, myself included...and wth, as well...

Eldridge Cleaver DID take the class but got turned off by pushy way types trying to get him to "promo" da vey and pfal. One guy who had a radio gig, in the SF Bay Area, if I recall, got him to come on the air and tried to get him to talk about this "class" he had taken. EC backed off after this poor attempt to get him to "witness" for pfal....

Thomas -- it was a nimber of years later, after the dust had settled and most of the folks he was talking to were perhaps not aware of all the details. The "others" alluded to may have been Harry, Ermal, maybe a B*ll W*neg*rner, those type who had experience and influence with vic...maybe, maybe not. Who can sort out all vic's puffery from what really went down???? I concur with all of what you say -- the early stuff I saw, before I ever took the class was really impressive stuff. Good folks were doing stuff without check-lists and orders from the structure and waytrees and kork grads or Nuttin'!! wow, how could it be??? :D-->

DH, I am sure those firings were the beginning of it but it actually was a bit later in time cuz I know Del D*ncan still handled the $ in CA which was still called the Way West, I'm pretty sure, at least in 72/73. I seem to recall it being during the next twi "year" of 73/74 when the money was all centralized at waynash hq. And I definitely remember vic whining in later years that he did not wanna do it but "others"?!? twisted his arm...he just wanted to let people make mistakes and grow but "others" thought it best to be controlled from one place. How convenient, vic...shove the decision off on "others"... typical.

the name is Hanan

Galen -- your reputation as a landlord must be a good and fair one. I think you probably have some good, solid renters since you sound like a rather rare landlord, at least in my experince over the years. Thankfully concluded when my wife and I purchased a few years back. Ya know, other than our mild verbal spats over who was a kork a-hole and who wasn't, i am sure we would get along famously -- I like how you have a very common-sense approach to life and your business.

..and this was the great fruit of PFAL and vic's ministry as evidenced in Txx(MoT, or is it MUTT) and Bxxx(Barq or is it BowWow) Lxxxx's lives and leader...., er, leadership???????? My God what a FREAKING TRAVESTY!! and I know there were plenty more just like 'em...almost make me think Galen is right, all the corps were as$holes, 'cept that far more of the kork got pushed around by the muckety-mucks than actually pushed others around... ..I may be wrong, but it make me feel like saying, "rot in Hell, T&B L*lly....... :(-->

Mr. H... a small clarification; secret decoder does not refer to PFAL itself But rather to Mike's whole "Master" schtick. I do not know how long you have followed his rap but I have since the first one he did here on GSC and he has posited some real wild stuff, which of course only comes once you have swallowed Mike's premise in toto and begun to join him in word studies of vp's usage of words in PFAL, RTHST, collaterals, etc. ...these are what the decoder ring refers to, not simply the class and materials itself...hope this clarifies a bit...YMMV... :D--> ;)--> -->

Mr. H -- I agree, I am sure Mike Feels, and Believes some, myself for instance, are mocking God. But Mike, you alone do not speak for GOD. I am mocking your approach to godliness through hidden, esoteric, gnostic-style wisdom and knowledge. This is NOT the door to the Kingdom of heaven, no matter HOW loudly Mike claims that it is.... God and His only-begotten Son have NOT been siiting idly by some "claimed" 1900+ years waiting for lil ole vic to come along...the ABSOLUTE HEIGHT of absurdity. Period. -->

Galen -- there you go, another benni...once you are ahead of the 8-ball, you can just keep it rolling. WTH -- valid points all. I would not say that most fall prey to a succession of bigger houses, though living in California would seem to support your contention for many. I would question whether missed opportunities would have much to do with the choice between renting and owning, all other things being equal. Yes, property taxes and repair costs go up for homeowners...AND property owners, as well, who pass on those costs as... RENT INCREASES!!! As someone who rented more of his adult life than has owned, NO way is renting the wiser decision. You still end up with a pile of receipts at the end of 30 years and the dollar figures are much bigger at the end than when you first started renting. Not really a hard decision to make, for the vast majority...

mr. Soques, Esq. oughta know a fair amount. I know bits and pieces, just came in on the tail end of things. Did go to a few Mill Valley meetings in spring/summer '71 where it was my pleasure to hear Jim preach... he was a captivating speaker, very polished to my 18 year old ears... :D--> definitely helped convince me that the guy telling me all about the Bible and the class might actually be on to something...

there you go again, Mike, speaking for everyone in the room. Do you have revelation knowledge and wisdom about ALL who post on this board, and all those grads who don't, besides??? You know what, and where, and to whom, God Almighty did what for the past 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 years???????????? Really? no kiddin', THAT is impressive.....

well, I may not be the master that Mr. H is, but I did read PFAL cover to cover 6 times before I sat through the class itself, RTHST 3 times, including all markings in my Bible before the class, and reading every other printed book and collateral at least once, probably more, certainly read the whole Blue Book 3 times or more. I knew more of the class than 50-60% of all the grads I knew before I took the class and i was in CA where there were hundreds, even thousands of grads in the greater SF Bay Area in 1972. My first year in rez in the kork I had one the 10 highest scores on the Advanced class exam and the only book I studied was JCING. My last year I had the 3rd highest between all the 6 and 8th kork. Only missed one out of PFAL, RTHST and collaterals sections -- missed my others on research section, JCING and ATDAN. SO WHAT, you say????......hey, I totally agree -- what a waste of time and effort to have ALL KNOWLEDGE but where, as Mr. H says, was the baby?? Mike -- knock your socks off but the REST of us are gonna pass on your Buck Rogers-style, "secret decoder ring" theology system cobbed from the works of other, more honorable men than your "Giant", veepeewee.......

and which repetition is real and which is just a bunch of worn-out Memorex...????? and all the car forums I belong to constantly cover the same ground...

Belle ... great stuff from your dad! here is how I look at the paying all the interest thing on a thirty year mortgage. You buy a house, yo make the payments, you get to deduct the interest, in 30 years you own the place. You rent for 30 years. You pay the landlord's interest, he gets the tax break and in 30 years, HE owns the place and you have a nice stack of receipts for rent paid and no tax break from the interest. Which should I choose...hmmmm

Dartanian--what way ministry were you in?? in the twi most of us were in, higher-ups routinely gave out all kinds of orders from the throne as well as opinons on all things, sundry and mundane. JAL simply is not one of us; it is not fair , in his mind, to go through the same. ...not that anyone here is ordering him to do anything but we are certainly not dancing to the old twi "Do as I say, not as I do" tune any longer. If you do not "get" that, you were in a different way ministry.....

nice try, Garth, better than your last post. I want you to tell me, since you have dismissed the fear of the Lord, where and how Einstein's philosophy, which you apparently espouse, is being implemented,ie, being lived and promoted. I just named some of today's leading proponents of same. Are they, Garth? Where is the GREAT result of all this "Sympathy, education, and social ties", Garth? Of course you detect something, Garth --you are a bright boy!! Now try answering the question-- can ya handle that?? And the king of polemic is lecturing me about rants??!! wow, a compliment in there somewhere, I'm sure...

my, my, my, widdle garfy-warfy is sure a judgemental lil agnostic/atheist/whatever... I guess I nailed it with the Star Trek reference since you obviously must be some kind of mind-reader with your Vulcan-like dismissal of my questions. Not so fast, Garth -- I mentioned nothing about Communists at all. I asked you if they are to provide us with the example and leadership of Einstein's philosophy and you come back with that tired, bogus krap???? Garth, you are a cheap-shot hack...time to step up your game, bud...or maybe this is your A game...

and pray tell, Garth, where are all those folks hiding who are living out Einstein's statement of his philosophy?? at the UN, perhaps?? In Peace Societies, perhaps?? Helping Hillary write It takes a Village, vol. 2???? Sympathy, education, and social ties??? Hoo-haa, that's a good one -- that's rich! Kinda like Star Trek, eh?? 'cept a course, for all dem aliens who need more sympathy, edu-ma-catin and social ties....

if your name is socks, sometimes you double-post...on porpoise, I think... :D--> :P--> ;)-->

I have asked Galen the same question before...he has apologized in the past. Galen, your smart crack appeared to me to be that nobody else was ministering quite like you were...and I would say FAR more folks met vp and lcm then you will ever know..sorry, you were not there, I and many others, were... I was not always a corps a$$hole as you undoubtedly view me to be by the words out of your own mouth...I was just a JB for over 4 years before I went in the kork. ""My exposure to your smart-cracking, was via going to fellowships in people's homes. Helping them, whether fixing their cars, or household appliances, or whatever people have as needs in their life. In fellowships we studied the Bible and did Word-studies."" as for all your help you have provided, been there, done that, prior to the kork, in the kork, post-grad kork and for the last 17+ years since I was stripped of kork status by lcm for not signing his loyalty oath, I STILL do all the things you mention, and more, free of charge as always. Stop by for dinner any time you are in town, Galen. .. Seriously..