skyrider

You're right, Wayfer Not!.......my mistake. The magazine and tape cost EXTRA.....and that's a MANDATORY cost, doncha know?

dmiller.....yeah, the bible is a side-show that keeps people around waiting for "the main attraction" --- twi. It's gotten to the place where people will sit around and endure just about anything.....to stay in denial.

At least....in justifying my passt involvement :D--> :D-->....we got more for our buck ($$) in the mid-70s. There was good music, good times, lots of kickback fellowship, fun times and very SHORT bible teachings. Nothing heavy, nothing complicated, nothing religious or mushy.....yet, powerful!

Ain't that way no more. It's worse than dead.......it's boooooooring religious platitudes from old geeezers!

Save your money, folks. Read a couple of verses if you want.....and enjoy that beer.

skyrider

In reading through that thread on twi theme for the new year, I was stunned by rivenbark's mushy message.

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R*venbark:

"It's my pleasure to share with you that in the 2004-2005 year, we'll have the privilege of uniting around the theme The Promised Land of the Prevailing Word: Building Biblical Understanding. We'll move forward together on this theme, reaching new heights of understanding our heavenly Father's heart for us, His children. From youth to maturity, understanding the knowledge of God's Word is essential for success." Jan/Feb 2005 Way Magazine

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It seems like doublespeak to me because....they are "always" building and there seems like NOTHING to show for it. Now, I realize that she is speaking about "building biblical understanding"......but, to all who've been around twi for decades, RISE and EXPANSION are to go hand in hand. Otherwise.....it's counterfeit. :)-->

I would venture to say that 30 years ago, in 1975.....twi had about the same numbers, the same geographical presence. And if THAT'S true.....then what is there to show for this, except more centralization. So....now there's a bigger bureacracy to dictate policies! :D-->

Might as well.......kiss your money good-bye when supporting such efforts. Imagine living a thousand miles away and sending in 15% of your annual income for what? A magazine. A weekly audiocassette tape. And, perhaps.......a confronting corps person in your area.

No thanks. I'd keep my money and invest it elsewhere. :D-->

skyrider

WOW, Galen......

First-hand accounts like yours and a la's vividly illustrate how destructive TWI's corps program is to their followers.

Galen,

One more point.....Peter J. Wade continues his ministry work in Australia. Shroyxr's group, CFF, invited Peter in for a teaching series last year.

From some who attended, I heard it was really good.

Galen,

Do you have access to running the 1968 pfal version of twi's foundational class? LCM's wap class has replaced pfal in most cases.

One of the reasons Peter J. Wadx's name and impact on pfal is so vivid to me is.....in 1974 after taking pfal, many of us requested the booklet. Vpw complimented Peter's work two or three times as he held up the booklet for students to purchase through the bookstore. Upon requesting it, our class instructor told us it was NO LONGER AVAILABLE.

This did raise a red flag, or two. But hey.....who was I to argue the discrepancy. I had plenty of material to study.

And another thing.....it was discrepancies like THIS that gave momentum to videotaping an updated version at PFAL '77. The plan fell thru with updates when too many mistakes and less-than-best performance by vpw materialized in the '77 class.

I think the same happened for the 1975 advanced class. The Advanced Class '79 wasn't good enough to replace the '75 AC.

wingnut,

I must admit.....for years I was a twi loyalist

BUT a loy wannabe......NEVER. -->

******************

A la prochaine,

Thanks for answering my questions, in detail...

And........thanks for educating my heart. :)-->

((((a la))))

Shaz, your earlier post was insightful. Thanks.

Yes, when vpw was on campus....there was a two-fold approach to gaining blind loyalty. At lunch time, we would be vp's "special kids"....and then, later he could berate us to the point of feeling guilty for breathing.

Few could (would?) imagine that vpw could level such vehement disgust with his corps. And, for some who were singled out.....it was a hellish thing from which to recover.

Your post spoke volumes for those of us who saw it, too.

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Originally posted by Jim:

I've known TWI nazis that were corps and TWI nazis that were not. I knew Radar when she was in high school. If she became a corps nazi, it wasn't because she didn't have a good heart.

We were all corrupted and we all served TWI's purpose. Some joined the corps and gave their lives. Others, like myself, gave money and time. I'm sure there's forgiveness for both.

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What we looked at......we became. [iI Cor. 3:18]

By beholding the simple truths of scripture.....one is changed into the same image.

By beholding and emulating twi leaders' walks...one is changed, better or worse.

By beholding twi's headquarters and policies....one is changed "corporately."

In the process of living life, change happens. ;)-->

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So you've walked in everyone's shoes and you're comfortable with judging their life and walk before God? Sounds like the same corps .... that made me sick in TWI. We're not there anymore. At least I'm not. As to the economy collapsing, where did that come from?

Bringing up military training is totally non-sequitur. I paid my dues in the Army so I think I've earned the right to speak my mind. The purpose of military training is to teach you to kill the enemy in the most expeditious way possible. The stated purpose of Way Corps training was to raise up clergy to spread the Word. I'm still real unclear how public ridicule, sleep deprevation and forced route memorization accomplished that.

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Well said, Jim. Thanks.

This topic seems to bring up deep, emotional trauma (or whatever the right word would be) from our twi experiences.

Whether its all very simple or deeply complicated to explain, I don't know. But in very simplistic terms, it looks like this:

Some non-corps.......are ....ed at corps for their actions.

Some corps...........are ....ed at limb/reg leaders for their actions.

Some corps leaders...are ....ed at board of trustees for their actions.

Some ................are ....ed at lcm and his insane policies.

Some.................hold vpw accountable for things spiralling out of control.

I told you it was in very simplistic terms. :)-->

When trustees hide behind the bible, the founding guy's heritage and cliches, accountability is cloudy at best. ;)-->

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Why did Peter J. Wadx, who helped assist in pfal '68, leave and go to Australia?"

Again I never heard of this person, I am not sure why I am responible for knowing who this guy is. Why did he go anywhere? Why do I care?

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Galen, Wade was keynoted in pfal and vpw held up Peter's booklet and encouraged all new students to order it from the bookstore. He was vp's right-hand man.

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......they cared about THE WAY INTERNATIONAL and towing the company line.

That said.....many corps-nazi/hitler youth corps, were exactly like me. People that REALLY DID believe all of that garbage, did all of those things.....and when we FINALLY figured out we were hopelessly entwined with a mind bending cult.....were emotionally brutalized to recognize what we had become.

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Radar, thanks for the "official" description. ;)-->

Year after year, twi's programs went sorely awry. I supposed there are hundreds more questions that I could ask. And, topping my list of questions would be one that went directly back to the corps program's founder, victor paul wierwille.

In the least common denominator, God's unconditional love was not at the onset of this corps training. The bickering and biting and devouring.....ultimately consumed one another. In order to survive within the corps....its like, the corps became cannibalistic.

Hmmmmmmm.....just like it says in Galatians 5:13-21 ;)-->

Far from any type of a spirit-filled walk with God, the senses take over completely. And, like in the animal kingdom.....the strong, the cunning survive. And, those with alligator-like instincts survive and thrive. :D-->

skyrider

I must admit....I'm curious. ;)-->

Besides, it's snowing outside and sitting here seems more inviting. :)-->

According to someone who posts here regularly, there were (are?) "abusive corps-nazis" in twi. This type of labeling sends up a red flag, doesn't it? Questions, all kinds of questions....

What does an "abusive corps-nazis" do that distinguishes him from other corps?

Were there scores of these guys or was it relatively isolated?

Why didn't the chain of command, vpw and/or lcm, stop these "abusing corps-nazis?"

Were these corps-nazis simply following orders from corps meetings?

Did there need to be any leadership structure at all for "believers to work together?"

If abusive corps-nazis were working in your area and you saw this abuse (verbal?, emotional?, physical?, sexual?) then why stay with twi?

Have these abusive corps-nazis gained rank up to higher levels?

Okay.....I'll stop there. That's plenty...for now.

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I never saw anyone hurt by the Board of Trustees. I never saw anyone hurt by the 'big name' clergy. I never sucked up to them, thus I never met them. I dont doubt that the higher leadership became abusive, from what I saw of how abusive most corspe-nazis were. So I well imagine that every story of abuse is real. But that has little to do with the topic of what beleivers can do, when they stand together of the Bible.

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Galen, so you "never saw" hurt from trustees.....but you "saw how abusive corspe-nazis were."

Who was accountable for twi policies, procedures, corps training, etc.....?

Why were corps allowed to be "corspe-nazis? and remain corps?

Maybe....just maybe, these dots need to be connected back to their source??

Maybe....at the first sight of evil (corps-nazism, included) we all should have fled!

Why did vpw leave his church background if "believers can stand together on the bible?"

Why did Dr. Higgins NOT continue following vpw's ministry?

Why did Peter J. Wadx, who helped assist in pfal '68, leave and go to Australia?

Sometimes, it seems....."standing together on the bible" implies doing nothing! Not advancing forward....not working together, not moving in unison. Some like to stay uncommitted and yet, claim they are committed and standing.

Even the Book of Acts vividly illustrates the continuous ebb and flow of believers "standing together." At times, the disagreement between the Apostle Paul and another leader strongly influenced the other believers. Different challenges everywhere......in Corinth, Galatia, Alexandria, Phillipi, Ephesus, Thessalonica, etc.

Clearly, even the seven church epistles document the challenges of "standing together in the grace wherein we were called." Communication and like-mindedness was challenging back then....and still is. :)-->

Nobody likes LONG posts....so we over-simplify. :D-->

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There are many people who need to know the bad things that happened. And there are probably people who need to know that they are not alone.

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(((act2))) :)-->

Thanks Paw....for keeping the doors open!

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i think i resent that. being honest and trying to figure out your past, in many cases the majority of your life, is not reliving anger. and i think people here walk in Love bigtime.

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excathedra, the way I look at it is this public forum internet-thingy is challenging......no face-to-face contact, out of context statements, millions of angles and viewpoints and all.

I sometimes think that twi (and maybe everywhere) we tend to look at statements as all-black or all-white, no shades inbetween. Take this thread for example.....Mrs. Wierwille's book is VASTLY different in my opinion of anything I was taught in twi classes, in the corps. She actually COLORS IN THE BACKGROUND of twi history and I find that very interesting.

With hundreds and hundreds of posters, and thousands of variables....I take others' viewpoints in stride. Age, background, major twi involvement, very little twi commitment, abuse, confrontations, education.......all of these alter opinions on this public forum.

I think it has very little to do with anger....for the most part. And, even though this is an anti-way site....I find lots of posts that are "fair and balanced."

Contrary to what some might say, time after time again posters come forward to say, "hold fast to the good and shun the evil." I agree. Some though, have seen a disportionate share of evil from twi policies and leadership.

Thanks Linda......what a dynamic woman!

Hundreds of workshops on prayer!! Amazing! :)-->

In pfal, Dr. Higgins was highlighted as being very instrumental in wierwille's ministry. It's easy for me to recall her contribution to vpw's work.

Was B.G. Leonard given credit for his monumental impact?....I don't recall it. Was he even mentioned at all? Could it be that Wierwille fell silent to obscure the obvious?

I know Bullinger was noted.....and remember seeing his Companion Bible opened to the appendix with the four crosses. Plus, Bullinger's work on Figures of Speech and Numbers in Scripture and Witness of the Stars could hardly be sidestepped. I believe Wierwille even further challenged the students that one could spend a lifetime of study in any of these works.

Belle, Mrs. W's account doesn't elucidate on BG not wanting vp there at this time. I speculate....an educated guess in looking at BG's integrity, class format and standards....that vpw was not registered for BG's class and refusal by BG was warranted.

After all, from BG's perspective......a stranger, a guy from Ohio phones at the last minute and wants to fly up there and plop himself into a chair?? BG, the teacher, was simply exercising his authority.

That's the way I see it. I certainly don't read into this situation anymore than that......otherwise, I think BG would have sent wierwille packin' the minute he arrived in Calgary.

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What I am saying is I think God DID tell us. It was the totalitarian nature of the "leadership" structure that put VPW & Craig "above" everyone else. It seemed to me, looking back with 20-20 hindsight vision, that they two appeared to be at the TIP top of the "top" leadership.

Leadership "layers" developed. Its not like we, who were on the "lower" layers didn't fight the wrongs. In fact, I feel it was quite the opposite.

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HCW......absolutely! Year after year, LOTS of folks left. My regret is that I wasn't one of them.....but, then again, I will say that things can get very intertwining and complicated when a spouse is involved, relatives are involved, children are involved.

As much as I regret staying too long.....that "too long" standard helped LOTS OF US to get out at the same time, in one piece. By then, it was unquestionably obvious that twi was beyond salvaging.

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Interesting Mrs. W's account. It squares with what I know from my BG Leonard association.

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Evan, in Mrs. W's account......she details the fact that when vpw phoned BG Leonard in March 1953, BG told vp NOT to come to Calgary. Vp went anyways and BG confronted him at the door.

Mrs. W's account details nothing further. Obviously, vp was able to stick around and sit thru BG's class.

Granted, years later.....the 1967 pfal class was revised.

BUT THEN.....lots of Bullinger's work show up here!!

To me, the more I unravel all the chest-thumping, high-struttin, pride-boasting claims of "wierwille's walk with God" in pfal....the more I categorize them in what was typically known in the 1800's as folklore, or yarns.

With each passing year and unwritten accounts, these yarns grew exponentially. Paul Bunyan and his ox......remember them?

But Mrs. Wierwille's book puts to rest those types of claims that go unchallenged....and the myths that spread.

:D--> :D-->

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I find it ironic that Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work...

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UncleHairy.....from what I've read in Mrs. W's book, this October 1953 class was NOT revised. As documented on page 100 (noted above), students who sat thru Leonard's class prior to this were considered graduates.

Plus, in this "first pfal class" ...Mrs. W's specifically states that vpw had NO charts, NO syllabus, NO materials to hand out. Why??????? He cut all ties with Leonard, stole Leonard's work, and within three short months, vpw was "on his own" and lovin it.

Mrs. Wierwille's book chronicles THIS!

And......its information like this that drives TWI nuts! That's why I seriously doubt that there will be a Volume 2 in this series.

The myth of vpw's "supreme mog status" is debunked in Mrs. Wierwille's book.

Thank you Mrs. Wierwille. :)-->

Oldies......you keep me laughing, thanks. :D-->

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Personally, I think there might be a more reasonable case for VPW possibly being a grifter if you use "Christians Believe The Preposterous" as an example.

But PFAL was a bargain. No grifting there. Look at it this way: if you paid $75.00 for the class, and took the class 10 times, you paid $7.50 per class. A bargain!

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And, Oldies......you REALLY should seriously think about going way corps. Twi needs your undying support.

:D--> :D--> :D-->

Yes, Oldies.....it came out in 1996.

And, Mrs. Wierwille was very gracious in giving her account of twi's history.....her account is very detailed and VERY DIFFERENT from vpw's bravado in pfal.

In pfal, we heard vpw boast about "God giving him revelation "like it had NEVER BEEN KNOWN since the first centry".....and then, we clearly see in Leonard's work and Bullinger's written work that this information was already known!!!

Many godly men had access to THIS KNOWLEDGE.

When I look at Mrs. Wierwille's book and compare it with vpw's arrogance in pfal, I'm left to ponder the question....

Somebody's got to be a liar! :D-->

And, I'll stand by Mrs. Wierwille's account. ;)-->

On another thread, the discussion of Dr. Higgins came up front and center. So once again, I went to my attic for the book Born Again to Serve.....detailed from twi history.

In brief, let me chronicle a series of events prior to Dr. Higgins entry.

March 1953.......vpw goes to BG Leonard (Calgary, Alberta) and sits in his class

July 1953........vpw, mrs & don sit thru BG Leonard's class

Oct 1953.........vpw teaches "first pfal class"

Note: "The people who had been a part of BG Leonard's class on "The Gifts of the Spirit" were considered graduates and not included in the rosters of Dr. Wierwille's class." ---- Born Again to Serve (p. 100)

Pictured in this class in October 1953, Dr. Higgins was a student who was known as "a strong-willed, keenly intelligent woman who had been all over the world." And, as noted in twi's book...."After this class, Dr. Higgins frequently called Dr. Wierwille as late as two-thirty in the morning to see if he was still in his office. Her question always was: 'What have you learned from God's Word today?' And Dr. Wierwille would freely share with Dr. Higgins, blessing both her to receive and him to put his thoughts into words." (p.101)

1954.... "Dr. Higgins was the person who introduced Dr. Wierwille to the great and influential works of an Englishman named E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913)." (p. 102)

"She gave Dr. Wierwille his first [bullinger] Companion Bible, containing the notes and appendix information of E.W. Bullinger, and a copy of How to Enjoy the Bible...

Consuming E.W. Bullinger's work, vpw also acquired:

.....Journal of Biblical Literature

.....Figures of Speech Used in the Bible

.....The Witness of the Stars

.....and his other writings

Dr. E.E. Higgins involvement in 1953/54 was pivotal to Wierwille's study and work. With BG Leonard's class as a launching platform and EW Bullinger's scholarly work, the juncture of twi's class format was nearly complete. Other men's work added segments of depth to what later became the pfal series, but Leonard and Bullinger are attributed with profoundly changing the young wierwille.