skyrider

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Originally posted by George Aar: Ridiculous concepts that a rational person would never consider become the norm when you slowly allow the unprovable and superstitious to occupy an honored place in your brain.

Certainly nobody gave as much credence to "believing" and it's consequences before the took PFAL. But look at all the nonsense we went through after we adopted that ridiculous notion as "law". We started living in an alternate universe of VPW's design.

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So true. :D--> :D-->

Some people "leave" twi......but "the good old days of twi" never leave them. -->

Evan.....thanks for bringing Leonard into this discussion. There were many discussions on Waydale about Leonard and "the good ole days."

After reading through many of those threads, I realized that lots of twi's "good ole days history" was DOCTORED FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION before I arrived on the scene in 1974. And, then you give this first-hand account.....

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As you know, Wierwille had recently taken Leonard's class. He returned to O-hiya to teach Leonard's class with Leonard's blessing. The accompanying article was about this Rev. Wierwille teaching CTC's Gifts of the Spirit course to members of his congregatin in O-hiya. Hmmm. Turns out wierwille lied to the man, co-oted the man's work as his own. FAMILIAR PATTERN!

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The 1st pfal class photo was the beginning documentation of wierwille's SPLINTER GROUP?

AMAZING!

And another thing (or two).... :)-->

While there was a MAJOR need to manage, incorporate and streamline hq procedures......vpw seemed far too involved in other projects and personal priorities to full devote himself to the OVERSIGHT OF TWI HQ. He even stated as such on more than one staff meeting in 1978-79.

1979..........Advanced Class '79 and all fanfare and promotion.

1979-1981.....Ambassador One flights and weekends.

1981-1982.....Living Victoriously and LCM Inauguation as president.

1983-1984.....High Country Caravan and Way Productions.

1984..........Harmony of the Gospels/ Grand Ole Opry.

Twi SERIOUSLY needed someone, besides vpw, to lead it!

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I trust that all of you are beginning to see that the TWI you experienced and the one I and older old timers than me lived in are different. In fact the new and current TWI is a perverted mirror image of what we once knew.

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HCW....thanks again for posting your experience.

I, for one, certainly do not dispute your first-hand accounts of twi......and some of us probably ate meals in the BRC basement with you. Yes....the upper room, I stayed there too for a short time. :)-->

Your comment about Uncle Harry being "the true backbone of twi" is interesting. For years, and my postings on Waydale.....I've believed that PFAL '77 was the turning point of twi. Not really considering uncle harry's death as a major factor......but rather vp's age, his moral/spiritual deterioration, increased numbers, and twi mismanagement were all leading factors.

Interesting too.....in your comments on twi president candidates that Walter Cummins is not mentioned. From 1978-1984, the research department was one of vp's "baby projects" where he and Walter worked together. Walter headed up the research team and was highly instrumental in several book releases. He also was "the teacher" on corps nights for many years. Now, granted....Walter didn't have the outgoing charisma of jal or lcm, but he certainly was among the group of candidates.

In your own words, "We were not fools who staffed hq"......how true. Many, many times I spoke out on policies and changes that came down from the trustees. In 1981, when food services moved from the BRC to the OSC.....the "family farm setting" was slipping from view and corporate restructuring was advancing. Even this "signature staple of twi staff" was a jolt of reality that things were bound to change.

To me, it wasn't solely the fact that twi eroded significantly as vpw became less and less involved.....it was MUCH MORE than that. And, even though Don saw the need to appropriate cunning craftsmen for staff, twi needed someone, a ceo-type individual, to bridge the gap of its humble beginnings. Even to this day, twi refuses to adapt to methods used by "the evil world."

In so many ways, twi's teachings and double standards have cemented their efforts from forward progress.

skyrider

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Uncle Harry was the only person in the world who could really handle VP. He had good business sense and Ermal Owens was so laid back and wise that he seemed to never speak. A man of incredibly few words. They installed the three of them specifically so Harry & Ermal could vote down VP's crazy ideas. "He had a million of 'em."

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HCW.....that's insightful!

It never ceases to amaze me the "father figure -- crazy man" observations from so many in the life of victor paul wierwille that are POLES APART.

Thanks for posting. Hope you stick around awhile.

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I wonder if innies are nervous about posting on it?

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I wonder if innies have computers? :D-->

After all, twi seems to frown on technology advances and openly discourages their followers with statements that imply, "the internet is evil."

IMO, twi does NOT want open communication across the board......especially from state to state. Unless there are major changes in twi, this website will be scoffed by the hard-liners who refute old-wineskins.

Interesting.......

Here at Greasespot Cafe.....at our TABLES, we are bringing together people and information.

NOW, this twi website is copying OUR setup.

Figures...... :D--> :D--> :D-->

only vpw could "wish"

vpw's epitaph

"I wish I were the man I know to be"

not only is he wishing,

he's self-centered (I, I, I)

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I guess...I'd describe it as VPW's Plan A, sort of a base level of training and committment that he always wanted from day one, whenever that was. The Corps program could have very well tanked over and over and to hear him talk at the time it was a constant up and down of achievement and failure. But I know many people on staff that he personally encouraged to "go Corps" and remember him clearly saying his long range vision was everyone, staff, twig coordinators, etc. to be Corps graduates. So to some that meant go in early and get "assigned" somewhere to something forever. To others it meant step out of your gig whatever it was and complete the Corps program and then continue on.

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Socks....yeah, "step out of your gig" and get some corps training [programming] and then, by manipulation, you're [my] corps. For a time, some received a recognized status by a one-year attendence into corps training.....others got special treatment and never went inresidence.

This "corps status" was such a high degree of spirituality that even Don and Howard were publically recognized for their decades of service to twi and given special corps designation! It just wasn't good enough with the corps nametag??

But my point in this thread......around 1978-1985 there was a distinct mentality within twi regarding service/support oriented people and those striving in spiritual leadership. And, the Word in Business Conferences only perpetuated this thinking and widened the chasm.

And socks.......good point about "if there had been no poop, there would have been a poop of some kind eventually." Just too many leaders and too disorganized to remain intact.

And hope.....I agree with you that twi had more than two sides to it. I see what you mean, but I wasn't approaching it from that angle. I guess being around Don W. and seeing the progression of WIB had an impact. Plus, several of my staff friends bluntly said that they had NO desire to go into the corps, because they were support people and that was that!

Plus, I vividly remember this Acts 6:1-7 being taught at a HQ Staff Meeting. Maybe, what was being highlighted was taken on another tangent?

It's happened before. :D--> :D-->

skyrider

God willing

you never know

knock on wood

he/she passed away

hope this helps

:)-->

socks, thanks for adding your insight. So, by 1974 vicster wanted staffers in his corps?

I guess this makes sense, since the zero corps bottomed out and the corps-promotion machine gained momentum. It would seem kinda whimpy to have the "corps elite program" with numbers that were laughable and bringing embarrassment to the mog.

Yeah.....a happy melting pot initially -- until the pressure to go corps mounted! Just can't let the staff stay in their areas of expertise and NOT GROW SPIRITUALLY ??

Besides, the confusion of which "category" do you fit in was escalating. I knew a 7th corps guy who firmly believed that his calling was to be "a business man" and be the first to donate ONE MILLION DOLLARS to twi.

On another thread, HCW chronicled his staff experience in the 70s and early 80s. One of the aspects of his post singled out Don's leadership priorities over the staff and Craig was the corps director:

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Anyways.... When Craig arrived on the scene he was probably longing for his father and VPW was definately longing for his son. Their relationship grew like this father/son thing. It was in full effect when I came on the staff scene in '78.

Craig had no apparent professional skills and certainly no qualifying professional experience prior to becoming Pres. He does have an amazing memory however, he used to wow us with it in the Corps. The Corps Coordinator position is one of the few jobs at HQ that there is definately no secular equivalent to. I don't know what else Craig would have done on staff had he not been Corps Coordinator. By 1983 when I came back to staff Donnie had influenced things to the end that just about everybody on staff had actual secular credentials to do the job they were doing. Some of the oldtimers had gained a level of professionalism by growing with their job as they didi it over the years. Us new generation of staffers (I actually had graduated from art school with a degree before I came on staff) were trained, educated and even experienced at the job they did.

I got the sense that the "top leadership" guys in the ministry didn't much mind Craig being Corps Coordinator. Nobody seemed to mind his apparent "Golden Child" status w/ VPW. The Corps was kinda "over there" away from the corporation & "move of the word" stuff. We made our own decisions in the nuts & bolts of moving the Word while Craig built the Corps. Our goal was to be able to run the ministry without VPW having his hands directly in everything.

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At one time, there was TWO ministries within twi.....1) the staff -- the business, organizational and professional side of the ministry [Acts 6:1-4] and 2) the corps -- the spiritual leadership [Acts 6:5-7].

For a few years, Don was the voice of reason for business and corporate upgrades. Word in Business Conferences targeted the business and professional people to the point where few corps actually attended. The corps was the outreach arm of the ministry and, for the most part, took assignments on the field while the staff were to be the supportive/organizational arm.

The corps were those who were equipped to leave on a moments' notice and go spiritually minister. You see, its right there in the word...in Acts.

BUT......years later, lcm debunked this two-fold approach. The staff, to be their spiritual best, need the corps training. The staff, if they are going to lead, need to go inresidence.

Old-timer staffers started packing their bags and leaving hq. The policy change was just another way to "sniff-out the slothful." Within a few years, from say 1985-1990 the ranks were thinned and geer's poop paper did the rest.

It escalated to the point where, by 1991 (??) all Way Production personnel HAD to be corps. If you weren't corps, you weren't allowed to sing on stage. The sanctity of staff-for-life was over.....unless one was corps-staff and had inroads to bod prejudices, like donna. :)-->

Another flip-flop on "the word?"

Another present truth policy?

Is it reverting back to "the two ministries within twi" as the corps numbers shrink drastically.....and some staff enjoy their comfort zones?

:D--> :D-->

skyrider

HCW -- thanks and welcome to GS. I, too, remember those days of long ago.

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At any rate, I got to know them well. This was pre OSC; the WOW auditorium was a far away dream, no dorm then, etc. We were less corporate, more like family then. We could go down into the BRC kitchen and get food, snacks or whatever; kitchen staff, if they were there would say, "Just go in the fridge and get it." There was always leftovers from what we didn't eat at meals. Mid-night snacks just like you'd get at your home. Ralph Dubovsky was regular fixture there. We would pig out!

We lived together, worked and had fun together and got to know one another as family. There were only like a couple hundred people working there that first year. The OSC was just a shell and there was basically nothing west of the trailer park.

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Awwwwww........to be youthful again and ensconced in "a community of purpose and believing." At the time, it seemed like God's elite were holding back the forces of evil and the Lord kept the sun from setting. Maybe, just maybe....my youthful zeal didn't see the darkening clouds on the horizon.

Also, there were a few years where being at hq was equated with "walking on holy ground" and to be hq staff was reserved for the man of god's special force.......better than being corps.

At times, I think this attitude still resides there. :)-->

skyrider

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Sky,

What was the draw in those years for new corpes? Or what was the pitch from the existing corpes? Were ya'll required to or have quotas for new corpes recruits? I know I was busy trying to get out of debt so that I could go back to school (while working full time to pay for it), so I didn't notice a lot of what you are talking about. Although, I was asked repeatedly "when are you going in the corps?" over and over and over. By the same people most of the time...as if they had forgotten the "I'm in debt" part.

I can't imagine what the draw would be. Was that feeling of superiority it? Maybe folks thought that once they were corps God would show them all this "heavy revy" to explain all the apparent stupidity.

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Lindy.....sorry I left ya hanging on this question for a few days. ;)-->

Yeah....I think its a combination of several things: 1) constant promotion by tapes/magazine/leaders, 2) acceptance and attention given to the candidate by the bot, and 3) no secular goals or employment advancements.

Probably a lot more, but these three are always hanging close by. :D-->

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At one time his life was completely contained in the Way Ministry. So was mine. But there's nothing to say that it would have to be for the rest of his life, or mine or anyone's for that matter. It might be in his future to do something completely different and that would be fine.

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socks....good points in your post, thanks.

Completely contained [boxed and tightly wrapped] in the Way Ministry... :D-->

And some move "this box" to an offshoot ministry... :D--> :D-->

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Originally posted by RG:

True Radar... I was just speaking from the standpoint of him starting a splinter group implying that he'd have to get some ex-twi people involved. I just can't see many who are now out of twi wanting to affiliate with him. But if he wanted to start his own thing from scratch and do so without trying to attract ex-twi people, then yes he could try to do so like you mentioned re: Bakker and Sweiggart. However, he'd have to go back to his roots and not use the same approach he did in the 80s and 90s...

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Not quite sure what you mean by "go back to his roots".......but certainly, lcm's "rise in the 70's" is a complex interworking of many, many factors that could never be duplicated again.

Some of the responses volley back and forth between "lcm starting his own splinter group" and "lcm having a genuine gift ministry." If lcm is to go back to roots, then maybe he should start with.....

.....a bishop must be blameless

.....the husband of one wife

.....vigilant

.....sober

.....of good behavior

.....given to hospitality

.....etc.

.....one that ruleth his own house

.....having his children in subjection

.....etc. etc. etc.

If a man knows not how to rule his own house, how can he take care of the church of God?

Maybe.....lcm will someday start a cookie-cutter splinter group like others. But he has a wide chasm to cross IF HE CHOOSES to go God's way....and become a genuine minister.

Jesus Christ is the bridge. :)-->

Not vpw's corps training. -->

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ex10, that's because satan was protecting you! Don't you remember that if nothing bad happens to "cop outs" that it's because they have gone to the "dark side" and satan protects those who have turned their back on God.

If good stuff happens to those "in", it's because God is prospering them.

If bad stuff happens to "cop outs" it's because they're getting what they deserve since God can't protect them.

If bad stuff happens to those "within the walls of zion" it's because they are standing for God and satan doesn't like that. They're the ultimate believers "standing in the gap" for the rest of the unbelieving world.

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:D--> :D--> :D-->

Even when I was "in"........this doublespeak bullshxx answer from lcm & co. was NOT one that I could ever swallow. I would have had a better chance at swallowing a football than THAT bullshxx putdown.

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...on the corner of Wierville road and "highway" 29. Not too many going to find it unless they REALLY want to..

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Makes ya wanna sign that song.....We're off to see the wayworld, the wonderful wayworld of ours. We hear it is...

:P-->

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Only distiguishable landmark is a fish shaped sign.....

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:D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->

In the past 30 years, since 1974......it seems to me that twi WANTS its "international headquaters" to remain sanctioned and closed from the public, a mystery (of sorts).

In twi's early years, at least vpw traveled the country and visited twigs. Also, there were lots of state meetings and region meetings with vpw as the guest speaker. Today, it's a total reversal....its seclusion.

Yes, you can come to the Sunday teaching....but please leave, immediately. ;)-->

Yes, you can visit during the week....but will be escorted by a guest buddy. -->

Yes, you can call the board of directors....but they're in a meeting. :D-->

Yes, you can phone staff friends at night....founders hall has phone access in the hallways.

Yes, you can bring your branch to hq....but why come and not hear a Sunday teaching?

Yes, you can look at twi's financial books....but don't you TRUST them???

Yes, to remain mysterious....is an image builder and a money maker!!!

:D--> :D-->

skyrider

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Skyrider - I was around then but didn't hear anything about it. Can you elaborate? Twig Hopper was the little (six seater) plane wasn't it? I got to ride in it once.

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My3Cents -- no, the twig hopper was the motorcycle with sidecar that was given to vpw as a gift in 1982 at Living Victoriously. It was "a love gift" in appreciation for vpw and "40 years as twi's president."

Vpw had his twig hopper up in Ontario and crashed it in October 1982. It was brought back to hq and secretly restored! No prayers for vpw. No mention of the crash. No embarrassment for twi's mog!

The mog was a "spiritual man" and didn't miss divine revelation to stop. The silencing of this information SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS!!!

It's things like this that give me SERIOUS DOUBTS about twi's history. They silence what they don't want others to know and shout from the rooftops the great "spiritual walks" of mogs.

skyrider

Hope --- thanks for attaching those documents to this thread. Concerning your questions about corps housing and things.....yes, a few of the corps were living in sub-standard housing, especially the single corps.

As far as corps kids eating lots of macaroni and cheese.....in cases like this, the food budget was probably being diverted into another expense category, namely entertainment. (hahahaha) It really was challenging for corps parents when other school kids & neighbor kids were going to birthday parties, movies, the zoo, campouts, etc. Just didn't seem fair to keep the kids in the back of the house while class was running, day after day. Uuuuugh.

LCM's ultimate statement on micromanaging way corps:

In January of 1998, when the emergency cost-cutting policies (found in the document section) were being dictated on consecutive corps hook-ups.......lcm, in vehement anger, stated: "I'll run every damn twig in the nation if I have to so its done right!"

I almost burst out laughing. :D--> :D--> :D-->

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the 'old' way ministry would have tried to tell me 'who to talk to' but the new Way ministry isn't like that. We are less religious now that Craig is not running the show any more

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That's an instant message I received from an innie. So sad that it's not true. I was in twi after Craig didn't run the show, and I was never more controlled as far as my life was concerned. It was even worse than when I was on Staff.

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WOW, Wayfer Not!......worse with rosalie's rule?

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Originally posted by TheHighWay:

I am trying to understand your post but it sounds like you are saying that those corps who are alums and still around somehow prefer that status? "...why is it considered "better" for them now?" I'm not sure where that thought is coming from. Most of us were "demoted" not by choice but by mandate.

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TheHighWay.....in my opening post, after giving a brief explanation of the new classification, the alumni corps and the "demotion" from active corps, I was attempting to understand this question,...

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There are still lots and lots of alumni corps who throw abundant sharing money to twi. Maybe its their way of saying, "I will stay involved with twi, but only on my terms and the standards that I deem fit for my family and life."

Any comments on this?

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Understandably, your post highlights the hurt and rejection you experienced from being unjustly tagged as alumni corps, mandated from lcm. Absurdly cult-like.....because what other organization "pulls and discredits a graduation certification" that they handed out years before?

I have talked with several corps grads (i.e. alumni corps) in the past few years who stand with twi and, somehow, express that its "better" now. Has anyone else encountered these people and this attitude?

And why do they stay in twi?