T-Bone

Hey just thought I’d back track and address a few incidental comments in your posts – “As for the rest of my post (which you didn't comment upon) I feel that for the most part, we're in (basic) agreement…” Though I politely tried to address that by saying my belief system is in a state of flux and my perspective has probably changed quite a bit and differs from yours – I don’t think I expressed just how divergent we are on many things – but don’t think now is the time to get into all the details – or that it’s even necessary to later. I’m afraid the sentiment in your above statement tends to overgeneralize and thus obscure many salient points of a discussion. by the way, having an opinion or perspective different from mine is great - but that’s not the issue.... the issue is trying to smooth things over for a group hug - to tip toe around controversy may often obscure the details - whether the details are in contrast to one another, complement one another - - or perhaps opposing details reveal there's more to it than what's been discussed so far. I appreciate opposing viewpoints - helps to bring many angles to light that I hadn’t thought of before. If you dull the tips of point / counterpoint you blunt the tools of sharp thinking. I don’t think you’re trying to be deceitful or manipulative …and maybe it’s just me but I feel like someone is NOT listening to what I’m saying when they say something like “for the most part we’re in agreement” ... I say “whoa whoa whoa back up a minute – for the most part? What part is that? Please be specific!” == == == == Also, I beg to differ on your comments: “For all you know, what "you decide" to look into just might be God himself allowing you to suppose those are "your great ideas" --- when in all reality, it just may be that HE (just as written) "is working in you to do of his good pleasure"! If you can "read between the lines", consider the possibility of 1Co 12:11 meaning that (as you're already willing, by your own choices and personality) God is behind that already --- according to his plan for you personally...leading you RIGHT WHERE YOU WANT TO GO ANYWAY! Just remember to give him the credit for "those good ideas of yours", because they're probably his to begin with anyway!” I don’t mean to be picayune on stuff – but for some reason this reminds me of an old wierwille Sunday Night Teaching tape called “Carnal vs Spiritual” – that went along the lines of carnal man is a dumba$$ and it’s only when you have God’s spirit that you are really smart and can be creative… To me this truly insults the Creator as well as his creation (us ) – and if you think about it – wierwille's "logic" also relieves folks of responsibility and limits their options..."don't blame me - blame God - it was his idea.". or ...."the reason you failed was because you didn't listen to God's spirit in you"...yeah - how stupid and lame it is to think that -... .. instead , why not review your thought process - kick your critical and creative thinking skills into high gear and work out the problem! …If the Creator truly made us in his image and likeness – then don’t you think being creative might be something godlike? As a Christian I consider the level of intelligence behind the design of the cosmos and it’s truly mind-boggling! So is it no surprise then to stand back in wonder when looking at all the amazing advances in the fields of technology, medicine, the sciences, etc. that showcase our godlike talents of critical and creative thinking. Let’s give credit where credit is due and acknowledge our responsibility to use our God-given talents. I even think when we use our talents in benevolence toward our fellowman that is a glory to God – you are fulfilling the purpose for which you were designed.

"mind bottling" ...that's one way to say how cults encourage closed-mindedness....ya know, a bottled-up mind doesn't get out much...I'm here all week folks.. rewriting Jim Croce's tune: ...If I could save my mind in a bottle... (glad I don't get paid for my songwriting )

love it OldSkool !!!! now I'm wanting to put a band together and we'll call ourselves The Burnt Chaff not sure if the name of the band should be in red - to symbolize the flames of fire that burn the chaff or just have it in charcoal black to be "accurate" as charred remnants of the chaff....oh decisions, decisions

I have this goofy fantasy that some ex-way folks would start a cult-recovery group and call themselves Revival & Restoration (but this group goes along the lines of reviving and restoring your true self). Has a little of that challenging counterfeit feel to it - but being upfront about the dilemma - do you want to go back into the bondage of life in a cult - or do you want to go forward as a cult survivor reinvesting in your true self. While reflecting on all those “burn the chaff” campaigns of TWI - coaxing us to rid ourselves of worldly things - I think this alternate Revival & Restoration group ought to have as one of their slogans: Chaff is cool

Ya know if I ever run an advanced class I am going to relegate all that to the junk table

Ya know WordWolf Your post has got my imagination fired up now; wierwille could have used the Jason Bourne excuse - adapted to vpw - “I have all these ideas of how to interpret the Bible, how to teach the Holy Spirit field and phenomenal events - I just don’t remember how I got them.” yeah Jason Bourne is a fictitious character with a good heart... wierwille ...a real” character “ alright with ficticious importance in a crummy heart.

Yup...that’s the “magic of believing”....holy cow - he did practice what he preached ! remember class, believing equals perceiving

Excellent post Skyrider ! your thoughts make perfect sense to me! a cunning way for that old plagiarist to hide his tracks!

Spectrum49 the same backatcha bro

I appreciate your words of praise but I have to admit there’s a lot of folks here much smarter than me and who tend to be champions of brevity in making their point…you seem to be aspiring to all that and kudos to you fine sir ! You made an excellent point in your previous post of the silliness of studying confusion and I get that - - your other point of finding the equilibrium - the balance point is fascinating as well…that perhaps describes the long and drawn out process I’ve gone through since leaving TWI…not sure if that’s an accurate or honest way to describe my efforts – but anyway, it’s me in the middle - - on one side the works of wierwille and on the other side, various references: Bible versions, systematic theologies, biblical languages, commentaries with alternate viewpoints. I’m not a researcher, bible scholar or anything…just some schmo trying to make sense of this faith I have - - what to look into further, what to clarify, prioritize, disregard, etc. And to be honest - since I left TWI, all this Bible study stuff has taken a backseat to other things I’ve got going on in my life. My belief system is in a state of flux – has been so for a long time…My perspective has probably changed quite a bit to differs from yours. Currently I have a side reading project of several books by Peter Enns. Someone on another thread referenced an article of his and after reading it I wanted to check out more of his stuff. So it’s a little complicated why I do not use wierwille as a reference point for what I believe – perhaps the main things are his stuff being a convoluted patchwork of theology, fundamentalist in nature, and finally last and most important – I believe he was a false prophet…false teacher…cult leader. I don’t see a whole lot of places in the bible that reference a body of work by naming a particular false prophet. If anything we see Jesus pointing out the hypocrisy of some religious leaders in Matthew 23. That’s all for now…I’m working on being brief…have a nice day.

Hi Spectrum49 I understand what you’re saying and I usually appreciate a commentary on what’s happened thus far ; I think some other posters besides me have noticed there have actually been at least three vibrant themes coursing through this thread: a discussion on how to stop mass shootings, the practicality of a wierwillian frame of thought, and the legitimacy of wierwille’s theology. Perhaps the reason the discussion has gone toward the latter two themes is because the person who had started the thread assumed they had a ready-made preaching platform and was not prepared to have an intelligent discussion with other folks – not sure on any of this…but stay tuned . . .the thread ain’t over yet ! Too bad it wasn’t just a discussion on how to stop the shootings – but it seems to me that the person who had started this thread may have had a hidden agenda – as evidenced by their lack of documentation, misinformation, and their inept references to things that wierwille taught… how many times have folks tried to coax a straight answer out of the poster? Frankly, it’s always frustrating and disappointing when folks try to have an intelligent discussion but intermittently there’s someone randomly punching buttons on a jukebox that only plays wierwille-lite. But enough…I’m not the one that should be explaining why this discussion has occasionally turned toward what’s wrong with the Way…I’m not the one who has been using TWI-ish ideas to try and support a point. I’m not the one to use a source established by Scientology to disparage medical professionals. I’m not the one who posted some of the copyrighted material of The Way International on their own website - the glorious Orange book...PFAL but - - watch out for those TWI lawyers ! You can believe what you want...I believe in calling a spade a spade.

Yeah wierwille’s interpretation of Luke 6 = as you give I shall receive

I agree - that expression gives me the creeps too

Twinky, your post got me thinking a little more on dystopian societies… and by the way The Handmaid's Tale sounds so interesting – I keep telling myself I’ll have a lot more time to catch up on shows when I retire…who knows – maybe “confession of belief” can alter time…just kidding… Anyway …I wanted to point out something I read on Wikipedia about the show and book - said by the executive producer – because I think it relates to my previous post ( as well as to what many Grease Spotters have said on many other threads reflecting back on their own TWI experience). In the section heading of Religion, Wikipedia notes: “Bruce Miller, the executive producer of The Handmaid's Tale television serial, declared with regard to Atwood's book, as well as his series, that Gilead is "a society that’s based kind of in a perverse misreading of Old Testament laws and codes". This really struck me. As I mentioned in my previous post, one of The Way International's buzzwords - "The Word" actually refers to wierwille's skewed interpretation of The Bible. “The Word” sounds authoritative and technical and even appears in the Bible in places like Jeremiah 1:4 “the word of the Lord came to me…” and Ezekiel 18:1 “the word of the Lord came to me…” where it apparently means a revelation, as something to lend support or credentials to what the prophet is saying. Elsewhere you have “the unfolding of your words gives light” Psalm 119:130 NASB. In the New Testament, we read “…the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” John 1: 14 NASB – referring to Jesus Christ…keeping credentials like that in mind, it should come as no surprise to realize Jesus Christ put himself on par with the authority of Scripture when he said things like: 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart". Matthew 5: 27, 28 NASB Now getting back to TWI’s buzzword “The Word” - something that I still find fascinating is to deconstruct wierwille's twisted and perverse interpretation of the Bible that he simply referred to as “The Word.” Still to this day, there's some wierwille apologists who will stand by PFAL doctrine - but instead of saying wierwille interpreted the passage this way - they just say resolutely "that's what the word says." From my personal experience – it all goes back to the lack of transparency in wierwille’s PFAL class. He was not open and honest about the source of his material, not transparent in representing his expertise (or rather the lack thereof) and definitely not transparent in relating his experiences of applying the things he taught - - simply an out and out fabrication of many stories or twisting of facts. His class is only the beginning of a journey down the slippery slope to the subjugation *of one’s belief system…It is almost a thing of treacherous-bizarro-beauty to recall how a “pilgrim’s” journey simply begins with something so sweet and innocent sounding like "a class on the Bible" and somehow ( over a span of time and a certain level of involvement , which varies person to person ) ends with a follower now devoted to the idea that wierwille had more of the rightly-divided word than anyone else…that God taught him “the word” like it hasn’t been known for centuries… My 2-bit logic says with the grand assumption that God taught wierwille “the word” then there really is no need for transparency…It can be trusted…totally…then we’re back to something like the Jeremiah 1:4 days of old “the word of the Lord came to me, wierwille.” Might as well take it to the next level – let’s put what wierwille says on equal standing with Scripture – “the Bible says do not commit adultery – but I, wierwille say unto you anything done in the love of God is okay.” While I’m at it – a related tangent to transparency (or rather the lack thereof) are some of the ploys used by certain posters as almost diversionary tactics...whether by spouting pious platitudes, pontificating, appealing to ignorance (“show me from the Bible where I’m not right”), appealing to heavily biased articles of dubious sources, making assertions without documentation to back them up – all in an effort to obscure* a weirwille-laden mindset. One can also claim they're evolving in their beliefs to buy more audience time...evolving or changing could mean getting better - or getting worse as in mutating...I dunno...we'll see how this all plays out...as my old limb coordinator used to say when I was a WOW "it all comes out in the wash" - not sure what that means but it sure sounds cool. The Way International is an itty bitty dystopian society based on wierwille’s misreadings and perverse interpretations of the Bible that were enthroned at PFAL and reigned for the long and drawn-out period of your time in servitude to the cult. (uhm…I’m assuming you left…if not, please see the postscript in my previous post…what thou doest do quickly ) == == == == *note on “subjugation”: there’s probably the makings for several papers of thesis quality that could expose wierwille’s methods of subjugating one’s belief system; all it would take is two or three folks developing some of the critical points made by sharp Grease Spotters on just one thread alone: is it okay to recommend wierwille's books to others? …it could also be titled “Is it okay to assume wierwille’s books are “The Word”? ...and folks there's hundreds....thousands....millions? of threads with great critical analysis of wierwille's deceptive means....think of it - - a seemingly endless supply of insight to cult tactics. *note on “obscure”: you may be able to hide wierwille’s influence to some but the real danger is in hiding it from yourself … it’s like you’re playing hide the salami all by yourself – you end up fvcking with your own belief system… It goes along the lines of that old saying - none are so blind as those who will not see. To paraphrase what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 6:23, if your eye of understanding is defective, you will be full of darkness…and if you actually think that is light – how great is that darkness!

Ha! Bolshevik, I’m not laughing at you or your post – just at the idea of flip-flopping the situation / characters with this thread - very interesting and amusing to think about ... Brave New World is set in a dystopian society and their use of psychological manipulation and conditioning…though a work of fiction – if I had to imagine how your scenarios would play out – I’m sort of stymied – and tend to think anything that would counteract the destructive mandates, policies and procedures by a society or a government would be forbidden / illegal...sort of a hopeless situation in my mind anyway - if there was no way out of there - no place you could escape to...no help from others....(it's been ages since i read the book - did a quick review on Wikipedia - so please excuse any shortcomings of my brief synopsis). Interesting though – another angle of this thread - there’s been talk of a pervasive evil and darkness of our world… ya know, I can remember a time when I held to the identity-crushing group-think ideology of The Way International with their solution for all the problems that plague mankind…their methodology can be summarized thusly , if I may be allowed to plagiarize…uhm..er…I mean revise an old counterculture phrase: turn on to “The Word”, tune in to “The Word” each and every day, and drop out of society (note: for those not familiar with The Way International's buzzwords - "The Word" refers to wierwille's skewed interpretation and extrapolations of The Bible.) …In my humble opinion, TWI continues to be an insidious subculture …a veritable dystopian itty bitty society within the general populace....all-or-nothing thinking and all the other cognitive distortions that TWI followers live by while hiding their heads in the sand does not help anyone. PS…any followers who are sick and tired of TWI’s Big-Brother-type-of-control over their lives – you do not have to hang yourself like that poor dude in Brave New World…there is hope!!!! I would recommend that you leave crazy-town immediately and if you think you need it - seek professional help and above all enjoy that sweet all-encompassing sense of freedom.

Good post WordWolf – and if I might add some info I’ve come across over the years – cognitive behavioral therapy which is guided by empirical research, it focuses in on the patient developing personal coping strategies for solving certain problems and in changing harmful patterns in thoughts, beliefs and attitudes. I think it could be helpful in conjunction with medicine and professional counseling - maybe almost like homework for the patient Cognitive behavioral therapy is listed as an evidence based practice which I also find fascinating in that evidence based practice takes a three pronged approach for improving a person’s mental health looking at : the best available research on treatments, clinical expertise to diagnose each patient’s unique health status – as well as their individual risks and benefits of possible treatments, and lastly the patient’s preferences and values…I like that – since it’s not a cookie-cutter approach, reducing complex issues to a handful of stereotypes or just throwing a bunch of pat answers at folks. By the way I think a little cognitive therapy might help some folks get out of the TWI mindset – I read a good book a few years ago along those lines – Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns

I can see wierwille’s little money grubbing fingers always twitching for resources to plunder - “ maybe I’ll look into how to hijack the Jesus movement “ don’t know in your timeline where that would fit in. just thinking

Good catch, Don’t Worry - …and seeing that CCHR was established by the church of Scientology really does put those articles in a different light ! I’ve read a few very revealing books on Scientology…most notably Inside Scientology and Going Clear that make quite a few references to Scientology’s campaign against psychiatry / psychology. See also Wikipedia’s article Scientology and Psychiatry In Going Clear, on pages 180 – 182, author Lawrence Wright gets into how Scientologist founder Hubbard became fascinated with mind control – so much so, that some former Scientologists refer to a pamphlet that Hubbard supposedly wrote called “Brain-Washing: A Synthesis of the Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics” – as a codex for Hubbard’s grand scheme - and that “there is an eerie mirroring of the techniques described in the pamphlet and some Scientology practices, especially those put into effect in the RFP.” The RFP is Scientology’s Rehabilitation Project Force “Coincidentally” there’s been a few discussions here on Grease Spot that get into the similarities of the methods of Scientology and The Way International… “Great” cult-leaders think alike, I guess…wierwille liked to disparage psychiatry and such related fields… I remember on more than one occasion he’d talk along the lines of having a sound mind according to “the word” versus how the world defines sanity…he’d brag about how he wouldn’t be able to pass a psychological evaluation test because the world’s standards for a sound mind differ from that of “The Word's" standards.... Yeah - i gotta admit I would agree with him knowing what I know now – I’ll bet he never could have passed a psychological evaluation test – with all the issues he had.

I’m not saying you’ve made a rush to judgment – but the opening paragraph of the article in your link ( school shootings ) makes me think there’s a lot more to it: “Fact: At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs” It says those acts committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs. An operative word in their fact being “withdrawing” (which was even italicized in the article) – suggests to me that perhaps in some cases the prescribed drugs were working until the individual stopped taking them or in some way deviated from the physicians directives. I think a lot more info and details are needed – which even this article suggests at the end by giving a link to a related article: (aurora colorado tragedy ) The first fact at the top of this article says: “Fact: Despite 27 international drug regulatory warnings on psychiatric drugs citing effects of mania, hostility, violence and even homicidal ideation, and dozens of high profile shootings/killings tied to psychiatric drug use, there has yet to be a federal investigation on the link between psychiatric drugs and acts of senseless violence.” I’m not a medical professional or anything that qualifies me to address this topic – but my curious mind wants to look at the bigger picture – like maybe what are the contributing factors to acts of violence committed by individuals with known mental health issues - and who knows... if warranted, sometimes federal investigations do broaden the scope of their systematic examination. Perhaps it would clarify issues related to the side effects of certain drugs but also issues related to a patient who stops taking the prescription or not following directives or a doctor's regimen, what are the current treatments for specific mental health issues and how effective are they... and I'm sure there's a lot of other things to consider - - because people are complex as well as each being a unique individual. not only that...but if the pace of advancements / improvements in the medical world are anything like in other technical fields - things are changing all the time.

ya know, the more I thought about how I've enjoyed reading up on WWI - and of all the contributing factors that led up to it and to its continuation for so long - that the authors have noted - I realized it's actually the political science of it all that they're talking about.....who knew ?

"whoa whoa whoa back up a minute" - was there actually a Way Student Aid Foundation ? true dat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps they went WOW and then were missing-in-action... seriously, great “investigative reporting “ Skyrider !

thanks Rocky some good reading...i browsed through social contract and common sense...you sound like you're into political science...I never cared for it much until lately - - and think I've been missing out - - i'm always fascinated how things work.

Yeah some of that is so laughable if it weren’t for the fact that TWI’s method might tend to make matters worse for someone with mental illness....makes me think of that old SNL skit with Steve Martin as Theodoric of York who’s cure for everything was a little blood-letting.

Don’t Worry, great post and thanks for addressing the error; I’m reminded of the movie Multiplicity - a sci-fi comedy with Michael Keaton feeling overwhelmed in life volunteers to be cloned. Michael likes the advantages of having two of him to handle life - so he clones the clone - but with each cloning there is a degradation of quality in the latest edition of himself. but copying wierwille’s theology is not funny - because the “original “ is not benign . Using wierwille’s theology is more like a sci-fi / horror movie like Alien or Species - where an already insidious “lifeform” is experimented with or mutates.