T-Bone

Do the math Beyond Mystifying indeed

Yeah for that pig - “payback is a bi+ch “ - as they say......hmmm how’s that for poetic justice! Please excuse my French, Ladies - but I meant it no slight to you...just a fright to Weinstein.

A quadruplex ? That’s a one-up on the Trinity.... and even more mystifying

Gotcha ...so it was.... The Hick versus the sticks like a stupid triple six with his Jedi-mind-tricks same old way-politics just a wierwille remix yo - turds you cannot fix !!!!

Sticks ? You mean Twigs ? make sure you grab sticks and not wooden spoons - - parents can’t afford to be lax on discipline for very long...and risk getting reported.

with Rosalie listed as chairman ( - my underline/bold of part of the word is equivalent to Bullinger's notes by the text ) ...anyway... I'm thinking she will always have the advantage when they play musical chairs - she never has to get up - the other three are expendable.

some people find peace and fulfillment by joining a monastic order

Rocky, some great questions there ! I haven't ever spent much time looking into any of that - but your questions got me to Google the issues - Christianity and Politics but setting aside any political affiliations one may have - my short answer to your question of what is the civic responsibility of a Christian - I read the previous chapter - Romans 12 - which speaks of everyone in the body having different gifts / functions - (like serving, giving, leading, etc.) I would think they all could have a wider application than just in the church. History of Democracy your question..."had there ever been a successfully implemented democratic society?" - after reading the Wikipedia thing on Democracy - we may have to add qualifiers on "successfully" - the article suggests the Greeks and Romans made some attempts. perhaps there's some history buffs in the house....sorry to let you down - I'm still stuck in World War I with my reading project.

Thanks for the link, Rocky Penworks, I thought your interview responses were perfect ! It comes across loud and clear when someone has done the detailed thinking process to describe such an experience. I look forward to part 2...and congrats on the Florida Authors and Publishers Association Award !!!!

Mulling over this thread and what I had already posted previously …and since I have a tendency to change my opinion sometimes -- - I wanted to take a different approach in addressing the issues of Romans 13. Perhaps there’s a lot more to it than simply concluding it means all governments are from God or the idea that I floated by previously - that there’s a dark side to God and that must account for the weird way he orchestrates how things turn out…or that he is like an almighty all-traffic controller…As powerful a sovereign we might imagine God to be - I wonder if I’ve neglected to give more consideration to a very important piece of this puzzle – something that may be almost as complicated as the Creator…and that is human beings created in the image and likeness of God. As a Christian I believe God created human beings as free moral agents AND as social creatures As Wikipedia’s link suggests – being social creatures we are greatly interactive with other members of our own species, with an individual’s success highly dependent on the overall cohesion and propagation of the group. the first institution established by God to help provide for social needs was marriage as seen in Adam and Eve - the two becoming one flesh...then further on the propagation of the group as Adam and Eve start a family. Perhaps one of the more serious repercussions of the Fall is not only tainting perfection with sin but also throwing a wrench into the proper operation of interpersonal skills… Now let’s get a whole bunch of imperfect people to live together, conduct business together and in general try to get along without tearing each other apart. That gets into the human condition and even though it’s a broad topic – the human condition is often a recurring priority addressed by many religions, philosophers, and psychologists. Me being the two-bit sociologist that I am - - I got to wondering if God didn’t perhaps build certain fail-safe “programs” into humans that would come into operation if something went wrong. Thinking about civilizations and societies one could interpret their tendencies to establish law and order as simply a response to satisfy some innate desire for such things…a workaround solution…an instinctive drive to restore proper socialization. One more thing I wanted to mention before commenting on Romans 13 - - was a definition of institution for the purpose of this post I’ll go with two common definitions of institution - An organization founded for a religious, educational, professional, or social purpose …and… An established official organization having an important role in a society, such as the Church or parliament. What I hope to show is that Romans 13 refers to the institution of government in general as a necessary means to the continued existence of a civilized society – and that it does NOT refer to… or specifies …or endorses any one particular type of government. From Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans by R.C.H. Lenski , co. 1936, Hendrickson Publishers, on page 786, Lenski says of Romans 13: “No particular form of authority is specified: imperial, monarchial, oligarchical, republican, democratic. Whether this authority is exercised in a noble or in an oppressive manner, whether it was attained in a legitimate or in an illegitimate way, neither limits nor qualifies the Christian’s position. One implication is plain: anarchy is not according to the will of God. While it has had its theoretical advocates it could not be established so as to continue, for it is the abolition of all governmental authority. When Paul wrote he scarcely had in mind his personal experiences as a Christian under Roman authority, the climax of which was yet to come when he suffered martyrdom; but he certainly had in mind the Jewish authority which forced Pilate to send Jesus to the cross and his own violence as a rabid tool of the Sanhedrin which led to the martyrdom of so many of the first Christians. The fact that authorities and authority may act criminally changes nothing as to God’s will regarding their establishment among men.” (end of excerpt) == == == == And from Evangelical Dictionary of Theology , general editor Walter A. Elwell, co. 1984, Baker Book House, page 477, under Government. The Biblical Witness: “From a biblical point of view government is one of the means God has established to rule his creation through human stewardship.” (end of excerpt) We see from other passages that no earthly government takes priority over the authority of God. Commenting on Romans 13:1-7 in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, general editor Walter A. Elwell, co. 1989, Baker Books, pages 951 and 952 it says of Paul the author of Romans: “He sees the state as a gift of God’s common grace to guarantee civil order and to restrain uncontrolled evil (the ruler “is God’s servant to do good “ [v.4]; cf. 2 Thess. 2:6-7, where the final eschatological eruption of rebellion by the “man of lawlessness” is being held back by “that which” and “he who” restrains, very likely respectively, human government and the Holy Spirit… …Elsewhere in Scripture the believer is enjoined to disobey authorities where they demand denial of the Lord (e.g., Daniel and his three friends [Daniel 3, 6]; Peter and John [Acts 4:19-20]; and Jesus himself in his disregard for Sabbath laws and refusal to replay to official questioning [Luke 23:8-9] ). Furthermore, Paul himself describes the power of the state as provisional in I Corinthians 6:1-6, and Revelation 13 characterizes Rome as the demonic beast from the abyss. Paul is aware of these negative and complementary aspects of human government but focuses here on the issue of respect for instituted authority as a necessary precondition for the Christian mission…” (end of excerpt) == == == == Romans 13, like so many other passages in the Bible, touches on some things that are far bigger than just the immediate context of directives being given. Sometimes we may rush to a conclusion without giving any thought to the background or issues that a particular biblical directive addresses. What I tried to explain earlier in my post was the need for order and socialization that is written into our makeup – hardwired, if you will – by our Creator - and though we are fallen creatures - those needs are still present and crave to be satisfied. The institution of government is one of the many methods that God has provided for overcoming the problems and limitations of the human condition.

Thinking about this thread today I did a weird juxtaposition of select events that either I have experienced or someone else - while in the corps…instead of these events happening behind closed doors (of a private campus or motor coach) I imagined them being broadcast on national TV – offering them up as inspirational programming like the other televangelists do…the imaginary production notes listed below are geared to address the general public rather than a select group – and is aired to provide inspirational and informative teachings to bless people with “The Word”….I’ll have to politely ask you to suspend your disbelief over this ever getting past the censors. Select production notes for episode # 666,000 of The Way International’s Light: TWI-Light: episode title is How Way Corps Leaders are Trained. The set will be the lobby of a campus (location to be announced) wierwille is to be dressed in his pajamas as well as the entire studio audience. Behind his chair and coffee table upon which is an ash tray and a cup of Drambuie, there is a huge screen for projecting a porn video of women having sex with a dog…engineers be ready to alternate the feed going out to television sets between the porn video and the studio cameras pointed at wierwille and studio audience – to show the nonchalance of wierwille and the shock, nervousness, disgust and awkwardness of the studio audience. ..Remember to zoom in on any individuals who appear to be getting used to the whole experience so as to show wierwille’s ability to teach…Remember to have verses and logic that wierwille quotes run along bottom of screen to justify a spiritual leader showing a porn video to students in the way corps leadership training program. == == == == Select production notes for episode # 666,000 point 6 of The Way International’s Light: TWI-Light: episode title is How Way Corps Leaders are Healed. The set will be a cutaway section of a motor coach to allow room for cameras, crew, lighting and boom mics. Props and setup should already have everything in place – alcoholic beverages and roofies hidden where wierwille can easily access them…intro must have a remote shot from previous day panning wierwille’s desk and then zooming in on a woman’s From Birth to The Way Corps paper, make sure her name on the paper is readable (way corps woman to be announced) - - have a hand slowly turning the pages forward and then stop at a highlighted area (sexual victimization or confession of sexual activity to be announced)…during the healing session remember to have verses and logic that wierwille quotes at the beginning of the session run along the bottom of the screen to justify a spiritual leader using alcohol and a date-rape drug to sexual molest / heal women in the way corps leadership training program. == == == Can anyone provide passages from the Bible that would justify the above as a means of teaching or healing someone enrolled in a program for Christian leadership? Can anyone provide passages from the Bible that would justify the above in the eyes of the general public? Imagine for a moment, if you had never been involved with The Way International and something like this did air on national TV. What would your reaction be then?

Yeah, Twinky your post got me thinking about something - - not sure where this came from - - but I’ve usually been the type to say you can’t judge peoples motives…and along with that my mind went to related ideas....actually....there’s been a couple of obfuscating ideas promoted by certain individuals on Grease Spot that went along the lines of justifying wierwille’s books, classes and ministry: One, is that he had good intentions (good motives) but was often or occasionally or once-in-a-blue-moon (I’ll leave it up to Grease Spotters to decide the frequency) stymied by bouts of sinfulness. And Two, sometimes wierwille-sympathizers like to appeal by consequential-ism – saying the end justifies the means........ “Alright so wierwille plagiarized a lot of material from many different sources – but bottom line is that he put it all together to give us “The Word” like it hasn’t been known for centuries.” hey, how about a round for the best cult-leader In thinking about this what kept swirling about in my head was the three aspects of a crime that must be established before guilt can be determined in a criminal proceeding: . Motive, means and opportunity == == == == Now getting back to the # 1 obfuscating idea – wierwille had a good motive/good intentions – I checked on how motive or intent are looked upon in the law: Motive is usually used in connection with Criminal Law to explain why a person acted or refused to act in a certain way—for example, to support the prosecution's assertion that the accused committed the crime. If a person accused of murder was the beneficiary of a life insurance policy on the deceased, the prosecution might argue that greed was the motive for the killing. Proof of motive is not required in a criminal prosecution. In determining the guilt of a criminal defendant, courts are generally not concerned with why the defendant committed the alleged crime, but whether the defendant committed the crime. However, a defendant's motive is important in other stages of a criminal case, such as police investigation and sentencing. Law enforcement personnel often consider potential motives in detecting perpetrators. Judges may consider the motives of a convicted defendant at sentencing and either increase a sentence based on avaricious motives or decrease the sentence if the defendant's motives were honorable—for example, if the accused acted in defense of a family member. In criminal law, motive is distinct from intent. Criminal intent refers to the mental state of mind possessed by a defendant in committing a crime. With few exceptions the prosecution in a criminal case must prove that the defendant intended to commit the illegal act. The prosecution need not prove the defendant's motive. Nevertheless, prosecutors and defense attorneys alike may make an issue of motive in connection with the case. (the above quote from: Legal use of motive) (also see Motive defined on Wikipedia ) In the case of ex-followers versus their former cult-leader - - wierwille’s motive can be used to explain why he acted a certain way. As in the above reference that talked about the beneficiary of a life insurance policy motivated by greed to commit the murder – I think the case could easily be made for wierwille’s lust for fame, fortune, power and pleasure drove him to establish an egocentric exploitative and parasitic organization. One has only to look at all that he had gained by sexually taking advantage of select women besides capitalizing on the time, resources, money, and hard work of other committed followers. == == == == Getting to the # 2 obfuscating idea – the end justifies the means…well, at this point I think the riddle of what came first the chicken or the egg? may be solved – by merely considering what wierwille taught as “The Word”. As far as I’m concerned that chicken$hit phony theologian wierwille comes first in laying an egg that hatched into the greatest scam in way-world today! That the word of God is…(drum roll please)… wierwille – oh God !!!! Yes..Yes...Yes ....take a good long look at the end – the establishment of an egocentric exploitative and parasitic organization and an insidious theology infused with the very essence of a sexually depraved megalomaniac. The means to build all that was wierwille building a facade of respectability…fabricating phenomenal events…manipulation....coercion...deception....harassment... lying and stealing and incompetently cobbling together a grossly skewed interpretation of The Bible. You know he wanted folks to take his PFAL class just so he could get his foot in the door – once “inside you” as a mindset the treachery escalates… So in PFAL I remember him teaching from the gospels about what is the greatest sin one can commit…oh yeah, oh yeah I remember that …by sheer logic it’s breaking the greatest commandments love God and love your neighbor…and therefore if you love God and neighbor you don’t go around breaking the 10 commandments anyway… -oh yeah the word means what it says and says what it means yada yada yada…. Yeah, stick around awhile…maybe go in the way corps…then you see the other side – the double standard that hypocrites use. The Bible forbids lying and stealing but that doesn’t apply to wierwille’s rampant plagiarism. The Bible forbids adultery – but that never stopped wierwille the sexual predator. Well in the end - if what you want is an egocentric exploitative and parasitic organization and an insidious theology infused with the very essence of a sexually depraved megalomaniac (commercial ad insertion: the insidious theology can be sold separately i.e. offshoots, splinter groups, etc. ) then I agree the end justifies the means – because I know of no better way to get there then by wierwille’s means. hey how about a round for the best cult-leader

Hi Bliss good to “read “ you again! I always enjoy your thought provoking posts. i am so curious as to the retention rate of TWI...and considering how so much of their stuff is just empty promises - I am also curious of grads that do stick around for awhile - just how they keep the “excitement “ level up.

Thanks, Don’t Worry – but I’ll tell you why your detailed posts resonate with me like The Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound (- caught some of the Long Strange Trip documentary and was absolutely fascinated by all the technical details and work that went into their wall of sound ) - – because your in-depth detailed analysis often has an almost tangible quality to it.....like being at a live concert – where you see, hear and feel it all… why is that important? When a technician is troubleshooting a system it’s like grabbing the brass ring – when you get to put your finger on the problem. “Ah ha, so that’s why this thing failed!...yes that would cause this to do that!” and why is that important? When you understand the cause or causes – you can fix it…or at least know what to do to prevent it from happening again…and with that comes closure. The same holds true when people do bad things…we want to understand why and how it could happen…figure out how to “fix” what can be “fixed” (or healed)…what to do to prevent something like that from happening again…I’m sure a lot of us here on Grease Spot at times have some sort of analytical program running in the back of our minds now and again…ONCE AGAIN we rummage through old events, experiences, conversations, etc. from our time in The Way International – and we notice another detail…realize another factor involved…and come away saying “I won’t get fooled again” …resolve and another taste of closure. honestly.... it bugs the $hit out of me sometimes trying to figure out what made wierwille tick !!!! I think that’s what’s so unsettling for everyone after the Las Vegas mass shooting – so far investigators are stumped as to the shooter’s motive. People want to understand why someone would do that. How do you prevent something like that from happening again? I know realistically you can’t prevent every evil thing from happening – but if there were red flags on mental health issues, lifestyle, behavior pattern…did anyone close to him notice something odd but brushed it off? …something that folks can point a finger at and say “there’s an issue we should have addressed.” NPR on why finding a motive after the Las Vegas shooting matters == == == == Anyway…I’m no psychologist or a medical professional anything …but as a technician I am driven to understand how things work …so I’ll probably drive myself crazy trying to figure out all this stuff…better self-medicate with some Irish Coffee. Love & peace to you Don’t Worry == == == == btw while working on this post Tonto walked by and asked me what I’m doing (she’s busy picking up after a mess I made reorganizing my stuff in our closet – boy, do I have it made…hope she doesn’t see this post ); I gave her a brief rundown of your 2 posts here and she said it’s great having your input as a healthcare professional and also from your perspective as someone who had a high leadership position in TWI…and she wishes you happiness… and I agree with her...you are like a double-barreled shotgun that blasts through the bull$hit of TWI ok boys & girls, your assignment for tonight is to watch shotgun willie

hmmmm...I see there's a lot more stuff I need to factor into the theory I posted earlier thanks - great post Don't Worry !!!!

That’s for sure Grace that’s for sure

WordWolf, I’m sorry it’s taken me some 6 years to get back to you on that - I’ve been busy - honestly didn’t see this till now. I tend to think he may have understood the difference way way back but started in the direction of compromising on things until he was engulfed in a make-believe world. He may have been so excited to learn the things from BG Leonard or others - and thought of what an enterprising operation it could be - that he may have thought it’s no big deal to say these are my ideas or God showed me this stuff since what really matters is “getting this truth out to my people right away”.....it’s funny to recall this - but I actually remember wierwille teaching on I Timothy 4:2 about the conscience seared with a hot iron - and him saying something along the lines of the first time you do something bad you feel awful - then the next time you do it - it doesn’t feel as bad - eventually your conscience is cauterized - - you feel nothing. Probably ought to factor in a lust for fame, fortune, power and pleasure that would make it easier (more slippery) to cross the lines of honesty and decency. But who knows I’m just guessing how I would “get there from here” if it was me. I try not to demonize him as always being so megalomaniac-ish but rather give him the benefit of a doubt. Perhaps he never intended to spin a complex web of deceit that would eventually trap him in a delusional world that he himself created.

Hi Maya - I agree with Modgellan & Rocky !!!! welcome to Grease Spot ! ! ! I can sort of understand your frustration when dealing with the blindness of a mindset in others...reminds me of that old saying - none are so blind as those who refuse to see.

Spectrum49, I enjoyed your thoughtful post - - lot’s of good points and thanks for going back to the first post that started this thread; like Rocky I may differ on some of what you covered – which I’ll try to articulate while I also offer my two cents on the issues rrobs addressed in his thread-starter post. Needless to say your post got me to review rrobs’ again – and to have a different approach with what I have to offer now. rrobs certainly picked a hot topic, especially so soon after the Las Vegas mass shooting – and jam-packed with a cross section of complex issues. In reviewing the post – I dwelled on a number of questions: As a Christian what should be my response to the shootings? As a society what should be our response? What should be the response of our government? Does the Bible offer any practical solutions to real-world problems? I want to apologize in advance for jumping around a bit – but attempting to answer questions many thoughts run parallel…tandem…superimposed…weaving in and out of each other…running in the background then foreground…sorry but that is just the way I think when it comes to complex problem-solving where many things may have to work in concert. It probably annoys the $hit out of most folks…anyway… As far as what’s been said about the need for each person to change in order to start changing the world around them – I get that ! while I do believe my Christian faith is helping me to become a better person – I do NOT believe it makes me any better than anyone else. And to be upfront with you all – it’s probably from my 12 years of experience with a hypocritical, legalistic, pompous, manipulative, deceitful, exploitive supposedly Christian organization known as The Way International that I now am a little wary of any folks who claim they are Christian and talk a good walk and tout their faith as if it were a good housekeeping seal of approval and are dead set on sticking to their dogma. I’ve been ripped off financially, socially, emotionally, business-wise, academic-wise not only by upper leadership in TWI but even by so-called professing Christians not in TWI…I feel I need to say all that so you can understand where I’m coming from with the rest of my post. == == == == In the big picture I’m of the opinion that Romans 13 is saying in God’s sovereignty it is his prerogative to deem earthly governments as a means to manage societies. that's one interpretation of it anyway...you could argue against that viewpoint and against using that to justify any form of government and I might even back down - perhaps I'm just a wishy-washy theologian I dunno …but hey, we’re all part of a fallen race and this is all God has to work with right now...it's one of the many things we've been entrusted with - and like many things it can be used properly...or abused. Something that intrigues me about Romans 13 is that it does not specify that the authorities in power are or should be Christian. I’m cool with that (please see my previous comments ). We do not live in a theocracy – where priests or religious leaders rule in the name of God; our society is comprised of folks of various belief systems; but I believe in order for a government to work all citizens must find some common ground. I think a faith in God had something to do with the founding of our country – as seen in The Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foudation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. I understand the common ground stated in The Declaration of Independence as being the unalienable rights and equality. I know some folks can harp on “God” being mentioned in it until they’re bonded-leather-blue in the face but I tend to think that might take away from what’s really important in that document….hint hint…it’s the people! As a noble experiment our government…our society…newscasters…social media - must keep the conversation going about mass shootings…9 in a church…26 in an elementary school…49 in a nightclub…58 at a country music festival…I’m just mentioning the more recent ones – and not to mention all the lesser known crimes / murders committed with a firearm. mass shootings in America When it comes to the prevalence of guns in our society – I think of two things: you can’t put the genie back in the bottle – but maybe by making smart wishes we can corral it. Call me old fashion but I think government should try to honor the wishes of the people. Part of the answer to stop the shootings – or realistically, to make them more difficult to commit is going to be through legislature / our government – and will mean taking on the gun lobbyists among other things besides citizens on both sides of gun-control hashing things out…for starters….besides all the good guys (and gals ) - that's you and me - being ever vigilant. I own several firearms. I have friends who are big into hunting. Throughout my career as a security technician there’s been times when I’ve been licensed to carry a firearm doing double-duty as a security officer as well. I’ve been around firearms most of my adult life. It’s no big deal to me…But a detail with the Las Vegas shooter totally mystifies me – he used several bump-stocks to enable near-fully automatic firepower. The shooter obtained that accessory legally. What is so mystifying to me is that the bump-stock is legal! bump stock - is it legal ? My question is – unless you’re military or law enforcement – what the hell do you need something that approximates a machine gun in rapid firing capacity for?!?! How did something like that get approved by the ATF? Years ago at a gun show I saw something similar – Hellfire Trigger System – and I think they’re still around - Hellfire Trigger System Obviously as a society with our government “in tow” we need to look long and hard at our existing gun laws and procedures for a citizen obtaining a firearm, ammunition, accessories, going to gun ranges, hunting, etc.…Perhaps we will need to consider a major overhaul – similar to airport security evolving since 9/11. Honestly – security and safety is inconvenient if you haven’t realized that already. Yeah there’s passages that indicate the world continues to get worse. But when I read verses like be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might (Ephesians 6:10) or endure hardships as a good soldier of Jesus Christ (II Timothy 2:3) – I’m thinking now is NOT the time to roll over and give up. We need the good guys (and gals ) to stay tough ! One final thing I wanted to mention was to counter the bad rap rrobs was giving the news media. The news media helps keep me connected to the world in a number of ways and helps me prepare for what’s ahead. Like the Equifax hack…pain in the a$$ to hear about that – but the smart thing is to take the necessary steps to thwart the bad guys – so I had my accounts at the credit bureaus frozen for $10 each….I hear about home invasions in the news…so I have a firearm handy when I’m at home (but still keep it inaccessible to any kids around) – when I’m out , my pistol is with me and my other firearms at home are locked up and hidden. You can look at the crimes and dangers on the news and let fear eat at you – or you can channel that fear into doing something smart about it...making the safety and security of you and your family a priority...get involved in your community to promote awareness and address security and safety concerns...be an involved citizen, let your elected officials know what you think - stay up on the issues and vote for change, following the dictates of your conscience....Proverbs 22:3 says, A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences…. NLT

sorry - you're right right - I should have said "you have often refused to negotiate...etc."...I can tell your thought process is changing...speaking for myself - you've never ruffled any of my feathers...and quite frankly we've all laid a few eggs here.

rrobs: Thanks for the tip, but I don't think the Bible needs to be argued over. I'm not into apologetics. T-Bone: Yet you persist in trying to persuade others that you have made a valid point by your vague sweeping generalization of the Bible...at best this is vague apologetics. == == == == rrobs: …are you telling me you don't know the general message of the Bible? T-Bone: I was going to ask you what is your idea of the general message of the Bible – but I see you answered that in the next sentence. == == == rrobs: I think it says things generally go better when aligned with the Bible as opposed to going against it, which society for the most part, does. T-Bone: It seems you have a rather rigid and legalistic viewpoint of the Bible – perhaps you could give specific passages to back up your assertion; since your claim “it says” refers to the whole Bible – I think you’ll have to provide an exhaustive list of passages rather than proof-texting to establish what you are proposing… ...another thing that came to mind after I read your statement is Matthew 5:45 speaking of the benevolence of God to all – For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust....my point is - Matthew 5:45 seems to go counter to your idea of the general message of the Bible. == == == = = rrobs: All IMO, but I doubt I'm alone in my assessment. I'm also trying real hard to see how the methods of argument people make here are much different than mine. Other than being on flip sides of the coin, they seem pretty much alike. T-Bone: Perhaps you need to try a little harder to see the difference between your methods and many others here - because there is a BIG difference!.... Besides making vague sweeping generalizations and proof-texting (as mentioned above - although you very rarely provide any texts to prove a point) - you frequently appeal to ignorance by attempting to use other folks supposed inability to disprove your “conclusions” as proof of the validity of your conclusion. I don’t recall that being a popular way to debate around here...once again the onus is on the one making a claim to provide scriptural support for the claim - then the ball goes back into the opponent's court to argue whether or not the passages cited are relevant to supporting the claim. Another thing is the all-or-nothing tactic that you resort to when challenged. Case in point: in your reply to Twinky on October 6th you said “The statements I made need no clarification. Excuse me for saying it, but "they say what they mean, and they mean what they say," but that is really the best way I can put it. There are two kinds of people, those who believe what I said and those who don't. I do, others don't. Not much more to say about it.” You refuse to negotiate or even acknowledge there’s other alternatives, options or the possibility that your idea is faulty – besides the fact that you refused to give scripture references for your assertions…and I could go on…but maybe you should think about these obvious differences between your methods and the others that you refer to. == == == == rrobs: The Bereans didn't demand Paul back up all his claims (Acts 17:11). They searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true or not. They were more noble than the Thessalonians who wanted to string him up. T-Bone: I think Paul’s usual strategy was to appeal to the Old Testament passages that proved Jesus is the Messiah. granted, everyone didn't have a printed version of their own Old Testament - and being aware of Paul's knowledge and retention of scripture he probably referred to Old Testament passages that spoke of the Messiah...if hearers wanted to check on the veracity of Paul's claims - they probably would head to a local synagogue or someplace where scrolls of the Old Testament "books" were kept - so they could review the passages that Paul referred to. in effect, Paul provided scripture to back up his claims given what was available at the time - although for us having printed Bibles, Internet, eBooks of Bibles on devices, etc. - our approach to checking on a reference is by far much quicker....My point is that the standards for arguments, teaching, etc. back then were probably similar to those of modern day academics. It seems kind of silly for you to suggest that we should let you off the hook so you don’t have to provide scripture references because the Bereans didn’t demand that of Paul. You sabotage your own argument by admitting the Bereans did indeed search the scriptures (the Old Testament) to see for themselves if what Paul said about Jesus the Messiah was true. I dare say the Bereans are perhaps a good model of how to study the Bible…as The Moody Bible Commentary puts it – they approached Paul’s teaching with some open-mindedness, they were objective in their evaluation of his message, and they judged his message by the standard of scripture rather than preconceived prejudices. Your posts have been a far cry from Paul’s method of argument as well…and I think it’s fair to say many posters here have tried to help you to clarify your message a-la-Berean style but you have consistently short-circuited the process by dodging simple requests for supporting scripture. And another thing – when I said “This is NOT a Christian or religious website/doctrinal forum.” You replied with “I guess that is the crux of the matter. My mistake. Take care...” …Yet you continue to make the same mistake by expecting us to respond like an adoring congregation to a consummate preacher - - or to cut you some slack because you claim Paul’s Berean audience made no demands of him?....yeah and on that note - again it makes me wonder about those supposed two Christian websites that you said you posted the same paper - if you even did that...and if you did indeed post the same paper there I am curious about the responses....I am curious to see what kind of "Christian standards" those posters used in evaluating your paper. got links ?

Thanks WordWolf for posting the links Catcup, great editorial ! I saved it as a PDF on my Laptop in the Grease Spot Lockbox ....uhm...er....I mean Grease Spot folder...great line from your article: "you will see that when a person utilizes the techniques taught in this class, he dismantles his God-given internal warning system of intuition, conscience, and common sense. Out of fear, he refuses to consider outside opposing information." !!!! congrats to you Catcup and wish Kitten the best in cyber-security studies

Wait - where’re you going? i was going to make espresso

rrobs: OK. So I at least got half way to approved posting procedures. T-Bone: I’m not aware of any approved posting procedures for Grease Spot…But I think the issue may be that you’re unaware of a typical debate format: someone puts forth a premise, idea, assertion, etc. and provides some kind of evidence or fact that they hope will convince their opponent and/or the audience. == == == == rrobs: But after all this why hasn't anybody told me where my post if off the mark? I know there is no obligation to do so, but if it's that bad, somebody could easily proved me wrong. T-Bone: It’s not a matter of your post being off the mark – when no mark was ever established by you in the first place – if by “mark” you mean being way off the intended target, inaccurate, incorrect, misguided, etc…You’re right, there is no obligation for other posters to correct you – but you did NOT set up a specific "target", nor did you introduce an arguable point for discussion…it looks to me like you introduced an assumption you have (and in my humble opinion there were really quite a few very vague assumptions in your first post). Honestly, how is anyone (other than God almighty) even capable of proving you wrong if we can’t read your mind to see how all your assumptions and Bible knowledge fit together to make your point unassailable? And maybe in your mind the point is unassailable – but you have to give others something of substance (specific appropriate scriptures and logical arguments) to consider in order to test if your point is unassailable. Your post may have some good points and find common ground with others here – but I tend to think folks will shy away from any of that if your points are unfounded – i.e. having no scriptural basis or justification; I was willing to give you a half-a$$ed benefit of a doubt by engaging you on this thread – but wanted something concrete that I could mull over. == == == == rrobs: This could have been settled 3 pages ago had somebody did that. A prosecutor can't just say, "He committed murder," and then have the jury declare the guy guilty. There has to be proof of some kind. I would think that anybody that disagrees with my post should explain why they disagree instead of just saying I offered no proof which is really a dubious claim at best anyway. T-Bone: Three pages ago this thread would have gone in a more interesting and thought-provoking direction if you would have started off with a clear premise, arguable point, or some such debatable issue. Funny you should use the analogy of a prosecuting attorney – that’s how I felt on this thread. But I was not accusing you of asserting a bunch unbiblical stuff – if you recall I selected portions out of your first post that needed proof of some kind, biblical references! I guess you were assuming everything you said was biblically based – and then you wanted others to find passages to prove it wasn’t. That’s like saying you can prove God exists by using only the Bible – “see, it says right here in Genesis, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Perhaps I’m a little more liberal in my thought process but I think even Paul drew arguments for the existence of God from other sources like in Romans 1 & 2 – appealing to the existence of the conscience and the order of the cosmos. This isn’t a commercial for the existence of God – I’m merely suggesting Paul may have had a wider audience in mind besides Israel… and perhaps that is something some folks miss when coming to Grease Spot. This is NOT a Christian or religious website/doctrinal forum. If a person wants to preach perhaps they should look for another website. But if one genuinely wants to discuss ideas and the thinking process behind those ideas and be willing to present logical arguments for their viewpoint and listen to counterpoints and debate them – then hey have we got a forum for you! == == == == == rrobs: Doesn't the general message of the Bible carry any weight? Does that general message align with my post or not? So again, where is my post off? If anybody can tell me chapter and verse where I'm off, then I will change my thinking on the matter. As it stands now, I still think the Bible says that a society that believes God is better than one does not believe in God. That is all I was trying to say. True or not true? T-Bone: You ask if the message of the Bible carries any weight – I believe I already answered that – see my previous paragraph – i.e. this is not a Christian website. But perhaps you want to mull over the fine art of debate and read some other threads in doctrinal and questioning faith. Here it may not be so much the status of a work that you reference (that it may or may not be perceived as a holy book) but if one can prove from that text by quoting it or by logical argument that it supports your point. As for your last remarks , “I still think the Bible says that a society that believes God is better than one does not believe in God. That is all I was trying to say. True or not true?” I would have to say you’re referring to a hypothetical situation that’s loaded with assumptions. Better as compared to what? Better – like superior? Better – like preferred?

Twinky & Skyrider, How ironic - - I bet wierwille so wanted to hear how folks going into the corps were delivered from all the evil of this world by his ministry - - and here we are ex-corps sharing about being delivered from all the evil of his ministry…that’s gotta be some kind of poetic flip-flop of his delusion…an ego-shattering catastrophic kittywampus-episode or something.