Twinky

I'd love to see it sometime too - and a lot of the other items that Steve references. His posts always make me think, reassess, give better insight into. Maybe if Steve permits, we could put his thesis on the Documents section so that anyone new here can also have a good think about what SIT means?

As a kid I used to love speaking in my "foreign language." I didn't know what it was, but it was nice, and I used to like singing in it too. It was a game to me...but it came after an understanding and decision, as a child, that Jesus loved me and I loved Jesus. And that was decades before encountering TWI. There are many times when I have talked with people and, without knowing anything of their situations, have said something that they've said was "just what they needed to hear." Is that a WoK, a word of prophecy, what? I don't know, I only know that as my heart is to help and serve others, I believe God can give me words that others need - to encourage, to strengthen, to help. I agree with Steve's thoughts on this. Don't know if any of what TWI taught is correct. As it was so performance-based (works), especially in the Intermediate class, it was probably all stuff and nonsense. I know that if I did anything like that (SIT and interpretation) in any church I've been to since TWI (not that there are many of those) I would get, at the very least, some raised eyebrows. At the church I've been attending, they are open to people with a "word" about current situations, a Bible verse to share, or a "picture" that seems to relate to something that the church is considering. The "picture" is usually "interpreted" or explained by the person "seeing" the "picture." And sometimes, there is a quiet bit at the end of some songs where people spontaneously start singing softly in tongues. The noise so made actually sounds quite pleasant but I find it quite freaky - guess that is something from TWI that I still need to deal with. While they're happy with the same person "interpreting" a "picture," if it came to interpreting tongues, they would definitely expect an "interpreter" (different person) to be present rather than delivery by the same person. But then again, perhaps that's as far as that church's understanding goes... God always has more that he wants us to know.

Yah, "believing connotes action" - therefore, as in his actions he was smoking known cancer-causing agents, and drinking known liver disease agents, what was his believing? To get those diseases. And he did. He died of cancer. His believing equaled his receiving. It's easier to clean your teeth regularly and refrain from sweet sugary things, than to "believe to heal" your teeth and get your rotted pegs fixed free of charge by God. "Believing" sometimes, often, means not doing something.

I like that idea. Encourages us to be reflective about our own past and to see the hand of God in where we've come from.

Bit like at the time of Christ's birth then. The Jewish astronomers "knew" but didn't care. Only the Babylonians, taught by Daniel centuries before, had the wit to read, understand, and act upon. I'd agree with that. And every day, not just one specific day or a season, is the time to celebrate it.

I thought some of you might be interested in this man, Graham (Gram) Seed, who'd spent his early years as a thug, thief, alkie, druggie, violent and ultra-offensive young man. On his deathbed (in hospital, not expected to recover), he was prayed for by some Christians who'd befriended him whilst he lived in a filthy state on a park bench. He recovered, has a totally changed life where he feels all his relationships have been restored (and then some), and has gone on to found a ministry dedicated to taking the gospel to prisoners and to helping prisoners upon release. His story reminds me somewhat of Nicky Cruz's story. Sowing Seeds Ministries Gram's written a book about it which has won awards for best Christian book of the year. It's very readable. You'll see it advertised on the website. Probably few of you will encounter his work directly, but do be encouraged that when you speak with down-and-outs, society's rejects, those without hope - some of them may eventually listen. Play your part in God's big plan. Speak up!

If they have to ask that - you have to ask, what do they want to hide? If it's really "the truth," shouldn't they want it disseminated as widely as possible? But if it's not "the truth," then they shouldn't be saying it at all. Just imagine ... being on a Corps night hookup ... and having invited the local church minister to sit in and critique... Not like you could buy Corps Night tapes (like SNS tapes). So, they weren't concerned about loss of sales revenue - they'd be wanting to stop WC exiting with "their" teachings. Or, more realistically, they wanted to slander those who had left, and not have "evidence" out there, in case innie Corps were disobediently still in touch with DFAC Corps and could pass on evidence of the slanders to the DFAC corps. Some truly vile things were said about cast-out Corps, in the name of keeping the household clean. A lawyer for the slandered could get very interested in those comments ...!

I don't care...they're stuck there. And they ... don't ... care - they're stuck there.

Looks good to me! Steak & kidney pie, or steak & kidney pudding (not quite the same things) are very popular. The pie pastry can be shortcrust or puff (as your recipe). The pudding is made with a suet pastry, the texture of which is quite different. Contents can be the same (still delicious). Brits seem to like pies and pasties. Well - not just Brits.

"Knowledge" puffeth up...

Actually I think it's about the first HONEST thing he's said. All that waffle, all those words ... boils down to this. It doesn't really work like that, John. It's not, you tithe and God give you ten times back. Or whatever you seem to think. You don't need financial resources, you need spiritual resources. You need to LIVE it. And then, you can reach "countless people." It's the lifestyle of GIVING not the lifestyle of GRASPING that wins hearts and minds.

Look good! (Christmas gifts, perhaps?)

You told me what you thought of VPW. I think you'll go a long way, spiritually. May your journey be interesting. You're totally fine, Chockie.

Don't do that, Froggie.

Outie, you go to their website and listen to their music??? :wacko: Can I pray for you to be delivered? (LOL)

WW, wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that VPW modelled TWI on the Worldwide Church of God, what with its radio broadcasts, unorthodox teachings and non-trinitarian stance (initially). Ya gotta hand it to VPW - he really did work hard - at copying what other people did. A master ... (ahem) master forger. So what many of us at the Cafe seem to think of VPW is: Plagiarist Liar Rapist Deceiver/fraudster Glutton/winebibber Greedy for money Adulterous Psychopathic Mysogynist And others of us think: Had the truth Helped me [through PFAL] get my life on track Didn't do the scandalous things alleged of him Anything else?

Unfortunately, Johniam, his teachings are not.

Outie, you're right, there's a lot of careful research materials out there. And loads of stuff that we never even knew about. The Didache, for instance (what? say most of you). I always hoped to learn (at TWI) something about the Dead Sea Scrolls. (Fool, I thought the teaching might be something legit!) It's quite well known in Christian circles that JC wasn't born in Dec but in autumn/fall some time - some think Sept, some think Oct. In fact, quite a lot of our "special knowledge" is quite well known. There is some criticism of the wider Christian church due here. If the churches taught better, disseminated information better, didn't just deliver the standard "pat" doctrine, then we wouldn't have fallen into the TWI trap quite so easily. I went to the Salvation Army with my Mum a couple of years ago for their Christmas service. The usual gospel reading, including a talk about the wise men visiting (I think they made the point that the wise men and the shepherds weren't there together) - and the preacher took it just that bit further - went on to talk about the "Massacre of the Innocents" - the first martyrs to die for Jesus the Christ - the young boys who were all murdered by Herod when he realized the wise men had tricked him. Did TWI ever talk of that? Nothing I ever heard - just the "special knowledge" that JC was born in Sept or Oct or whenever they say. Waysider, I wonder if there was anything that VPW didn't plagiarize?

“You tell me what you think of Jesus Christ, and I’ll tell you how far you’ll go spiritually!” boasted some man we’ve all heard of. Well, that man went on to tell us what to think of Jesus Christ … and then managed to hide him from view. So that we couldn’t really think of Jesus Christ himself because he was lost behind veils of pseudo-Greek, egomania, you name it. We were taught to read the words of the Bible, but the true heart of the gospel became obscured and the glass through which we saw, became darker and darker. Now I have a different question to pose. “You tell me what you think of Victor-Paul Wierwille, and I’ll tell you how far you’ll go spiritually!” Do you read the Bible, or PFAL books? Which takes precedence in your life? How widely, how deeply, have you read the Bible? What do you know of, say, Obadiah, Habakkuk, Joel, the other lesser-known books – that you’ve read and thought about for yourself? (I name these because there aren’t many TWI teachings on these.) Do you feel comfortable reading what other commentators, scholars, academicians, say about topics in the Bible? - Scholars and academicians who have years of careful study behind them; have submitted their works for peer review; have considered and discussed with others? Or do you think they’re all “tripped out” or “tricked out” and their works deserve to be hauled off to the dump? Can you listen to a sermon – say, on TV or radio – by some non-Way preacher – and not start to get critical about a turn of phrase, or think you know more about a word the preacher used? Or do you confine your reading to collaterals and Way-approved materials? “You tell me what you think of Victor-Paul Wierwille, and I’ll tell you how far you’ll go spiritually!”

Earlier than 1994 - earlier 90s. Interesting...we had "uncle" this person and that person. But their spouses weren't "aunt" - Aunt Imogene, Aunt Rhoda. Even the spouse of "our father in the word" wasn't coat-tailed as "our mother in the Word" but was known as Mrs Wierwille, or more remotely as "the first lady of the Way" (gag). I suppose she was the "first" as in the wife of the founder, but not "first" as in the wife of the president - just plain arrogant, that is. Not even first among equals. I believe God says we are all sons of God. The only precedence in OT patriarchal society goes to the eldest son, the first-born, because of expected familial responsibilities in adult life (care of the widow and rest of the members of the family). There isn't that precedence among the NT letters. I believe the position of first-born son of God was taken, hundreds of generations before Wierwille was thought of, in human terms. Our brothers VPW, Mrs W, "uncles" Howard and Harry - are just that. Siblings, brothers. Just brothers. And naughty ones, at that. With no particular precedence.

I recall working one RoA with a lass who told me that listening to the music had really healed her. She had been badly hurt in the past and couldn't cope with teaching/preaching, but the songs when she'd heard them enough really helped her. But she didn't say what songs. Some of the early Way musicians stuff was good - I got in "late" and got some near-bootlegged copies as I believe by the time I heard them, they were on the banished list. A song that comes to mind is "Many Roads" which had a very catchy tune. Some of the stuff was dire...Singing Ladies of the Way. As to music, I did get a set of the then-current SATW music printed and accompanied by tapes with the tunes on - that would be for the basic SATW songbook without the stick-in songs that went with each year's themes. And yeah, SATW was stuff that was public domain, out of copyright - or TWI copyrighted. My TC wrote a song once; it was lovely and we enjoyed singing it in our twig. She sang it one year at RoA, early 90s, and it was grabbed for Way Musicians, who took the tune, changed some of the words and demanded that was the version that was sung. She was generous about it...said what they'd changed improved the song...it didn't.

Now might be an appropriate time to mention "The Screwtape Letters"

Too right, Steve. And most parents teach that to their kids, from an early age. LCM did bang on sometimes about there being no "rights" without "responsibility". He addressed that to wider worldly issues but thinking about it now, in Wayworld, we had neither rights nor responsibility. (And of course I understand the darker underbelly of TWI now. Yet - rights to help oneself to Way women? But no responsibility towards them!!) And yet, it was in Wayworld that I heard - God trusts you, he has entrusted his Word to you. It's called "obedience" and "meekness," Steve. Two words that continue to make me cringe. "You control your thinking, what goes on between your ears." Didn't they say that? (Of course, they meant, control your thinking to think only what we say you can think!) Break out, folks! Your brain - you use it!!! The most responsible thing any innie can do now is to THINK and consider what you're really obedient and meek to. Then BEAT THE FEET! Grow up!! God will never leave you, never abandon you, never mark and avoid you. It can be tough outside Wayworld, but nothing like as tough as staying complacently within Wayworld.

I think of this world a bit like a womb. A fetus in a womb has no idea of the magnificence of what's available outside its closed environment. Nor of how magnificent and wonderfully capable its body really is, or rather will be, outside its closed environment. Just as we really don't know (we only have a glimpse of) what's available outside our closed environment. And we only have a glimpse of how magnificent and wonderfully capable the new body will be.

Ham... What've you been smoking? Or drinking?? Looks like you were having a nice little party by yourself last night!