Twinky

All the trustees always had a nominee in case they themselves were incapacitated, died suddenly, etc (of course...where would the revelation be that one was going to die in a car/plane crash...but I digress). I remember LCM announcing this one day - early 90s - he announced his successor with a big run-up - you'll be surprised, etc etc, Yes, It's Rev Rivenbark! Yes, it's a woman [gulp] - and he went on in some way about women having a ministry. I don't remember the words he used, only the tone of voice and the way he presented it. This is that same LCM that constantly denigrated women (especially smart women) who showed any ability, thinking skills, leadership qualities - anything other than complete submission to the nearest male jerk. And particularly married women, who barely existed in their own right under his tenure - everything had to be addressed to the head of household, the husband. She knew what she'd got on him. And her strategy (one has to agree) was successful, got herself enough dirt to get him kicked out and herself installed. She knew what women he'd coerced - and then she hung him out to dry. After, no doubt, a few fiery confrontations she gave him.

's why I'm interested in Steve's view, Raf. I recently did an intro to NT Greek course taught by a student at a local church who is studying theology at Oxford University. (A lovely lass she is, too.) I sidled into the discussions the group had, an enquiry about the difference if any between heteros and allos. She gave a bit of an explanation which was so far from what VPW stated categorically that I couldn't take it in. Suffice to say that it was much looser and nothing like as black and white as VPW claimed. But ... severally (separately) as He/he/it wills ??? Who? God? Man? the holy spirit? the Holy Spirit? ... the church minister, the congregation, the person next to you (LOL)...

This is only a bit off topic and Steve is going to have to deal with it anyway at some stage. What does 1 Cor 12:11 mean? "...dividing to every man severally as He [he?] will." And this whole passage is mixed up with that heteros/allos (alleged) difference that VPW claimed. (And for you Wiewillites, I'm not interested in the PFAL "definition" - I'm interested in what a serious Biblical scholar or professor thinks this means.) There is a school of thought that says 1 and 2 Cor are actually 1, 2, 3 and 4 Cor, in other words, not only two epistles but a combination of fragments of more than two. There are some changes of direction within these epistles and also a reference to a previous letter that we don't have, nowadays, which might be incorporated in the composite that we now call 1 Cor.

There is a database of all European companies and I wonder how many other TWI-clones there are out there - in France, Germany, Belgium, and the rest of Europe. TWI was very active in Germany with Wolfg@ng Schn3ider but who knows if anything is happening there now, I don't. There are still TWI (type) fellowships in France with several splinter groups too. There are also splinters in Scandinavia but don't know if they are just splinters (and hang more with CFFM or alone) or if there is a genuine (?) TWI presence / incorporated company in any of these.

Maybe we can celebrate their anniversary when they finally shut up shop.

So originally when TWI set up Gartmore, we were called "The Way in Great Britain" (WayGB (!) ) and then when everything crashed and burned, and Gartmore had broken away, a new set-up was established which was known as "The Way of the UK" - that would be very early 1990s. Neither of these appears to be a registered company. But I did find this: Company Details: Name & Registered Office: THE WAY INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED FRYERN HOUSE 125 WINCHESTER ROAD CHANDLERS FORD HAMPSHIRE SO53 2DR Company No. 02943269 Status: Active Date of Incorporation: 28/06/1994 Country of Origin: United Kingdom Company Type: Private Limited Company Nature of Business (SIC): 94910 - Activities of religious organizations Accounting Reference Date: 30/06 Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2011 (TOTAL EXEMPTION FULL) Next Accounts Due: 31/03/2013 Last Return Made Up To: 28/06/2012 Next Return Due: 26/07/2013 Last Members List: 28/06/2012 Previous Names:No previous name information has been recorded over the last 20 years. UK Establishment Details There are no UK Establishments associated with this company. Oversea Company Info There are no Oversea Details associated with this company. Maybe that's the legal name of The Way in the UK. Nice of whoever to tell. And this company is kept up to date. "There are no Oversea Details associated with this company." Well...no such details declared, anyway. Maybe there is no "legal association" as in shares being owned by an oversea company. Here are some of the documents associated with the abovenamed company: 18/07/2012 18/07/12 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1000 02/08/2011 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / REVEREND STEPHEN PAUL CROMMETT / 28/06/2011 22/09/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / JEAN YVES DE LISLE / 28/06/2010 22/09/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / REVEREND STEPHEN PAUL CROMMETT / 28/06/2010 22/09/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / ROSALIE FOX RIVENBARK / 28/06/2010 21/09/2010 SECRETARY'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / JEAN YVES DE LISLE / 28/06/2010 18/11/2009 DIRECTOR APPOINTED REVEREND STEPHEN PAUL CROMMETT 17/11/2009 APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR ROGER MITTLER I'll leave it to you to see if there are any familiar names.......

Name & Registered Office: WORD PROMOTIONS LIMITED C/O ALEXANDER SLOAN, CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS 38 CADOGAN STREET GLASGOW G2 7HF Company No. SC140876 Status: Active Date of Incorporation: 22/10/1992 Country of Origin: United Kingdom Company Type: Private Limited Company Nature of Business (SIC): 58110 - Book publishing Accounting Reference Date: 31/08 Last Accounts Made Up To: 31/08/2011 (TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL) Next Accounts Due: 31/05/2013 Last Return Made Up To: 22/10/2011 Next Return Due: 19/11/2012 Last Members List: 22/10/2011

Huh, I liked Robert but thought Geer had stamped all over him. So RW set up this new clone, did he? Surprises me a bit, it's a rather un-Brit-like thing to do. But then .. shouldn't be surprised by anything the higher-ups did or still do.

When I was in rez, the grandmother of my Corps sister died. She was allowed to go to the funeral - in Florida or some such place - nowhere near. Last opportunity to say goodbye (pity they hadn't thought about that while the grandparent was still alive). The lass had to go with someone, and they had to stay together all the time, to "watch out for" each other. Someone else's sister got married. Not allowed to go to the wedding. There'd be plenty of time when Corps training had finished to go and see the happy couple. (I wonder if they were subsequently ever allowed any time to catch up with the new spouses, or whether they were just kept moving on the TWI roundabout?) Inhumane, to break those - and many other - important family occasions. I seem to recall - Jesus wept at funerals, and partied up at weddings... So much for following in his footsteps.

I know that exactly, Rascal. Can't read without feeling angry - or condemned. I used The Message when I first started reading again. About as far from KJV as you can get. I am really quite surprised at the number who say they read KJV as a preferred reading (not study) Bible, which is the clear preference so far. I thought TWI teaching might have put nearly everyone off and that people might have migrated to NRSV or similar. Though some may use KJV as only one of several versions they read from choice / preference.

OB, faith isn't a verb - "to have faith" might be along those lines, but the verb is "to have" which makes "faith" the predicate ... if I remember my grammar right. I really don't care. Believe God, have faith in God, have confidence in God ... Whatever way you slice it, it's probably NOT any of the definitions that TWI gave it. But you know when you're doing it.

Don W was? And not by his father? (His father sure respected that "ordination" later on in life!) Child abuse...hadn't thought of it quite like that. More like congregation abuse.

He was too busy DOING in his short ministry life to spend time writing it all down. And praying. There was at that time a much bigger tradition of oral recounting than is practiced today. But he taught his followers well enough that they could both communicate the gospel clearly, and (if they wanted) write it down as well. There were plenty of so-called God-followers that read, taught, and wrote things down. Some were known as Pharisees, and some were known as Sadducees. There were also scribes and other rabbis. Few of their writings, or oral traditions of their actions, have survived. Yes, it would be fascinating to read what the Man himself had written. Ad there would be ten thousand other sects all hanging their hats on where the commas came.

TWI can hardly sue for disparaging its reputation (LOL). I haven't seen this video, but if you substituted "homosexuals" for "Muslims" you might have something near the truth of what TWI was actually teaching, at least during Martindale's tenure.

I'm just listening to an item on the radio about the "ordination" of an 11 year old as a minister in his parents' church. Here's a link I found: 11 y.o. minister I don't doubt that a child of this age can have a "calling" and set a real example, both to other children and to adults. But ordination as a minister? Heck, would you go to this kid if you needed spiritual guidance when your marriage is going awry, when your own kids are going off the rails a bit, when you need help to deal with a situation at work... It seems to me that this is making a mockery of what being a minister really is. Let's see him in another 20 or 30 years ... then he might merit ordination, if he's stayed faithful.

Never really thought about that, but you're more or less right. I recall the class/VPW said to put away other reading matter for three months, and concentrate on reading the epistles (not PFAL material) - though twig leaders would encourage reading the Blue Book, and other PFAL books. We were discouraged from reading the gospels (relating to a bygone time and not relevant to us in this administration - gag). The OT wasn't mentioned as reading material for this three month period. Having put away secular material for 3 months - there was always too much else to do, classes to be at, etc, to get into any other secular material. As regards prayer, we were encourage to SIT but that's about all. No recommendation for a daily time of prayer and reflection. "Meditate on the word" became "read" the word, not think about it, especially in relation to other materials or scripture passages. Oh, and read what the PFAL books say about it. We were specifically discouraged from "the Lord's Prayer" - isn't one of the Listening with a Purpose questions, "Why can we not pray this prayer?" - because our forgiveness is not dependent on us forgiving others. There was no encouragement in thinking of the heart of this prayer - the holiness/hallowedness of God; the seeking after His will coming into effect (despite the motto which I won't repeat); no acknowledgment of God as our daily provider - just as Him being a provider on demand of parking places, money and other trinkets; no acknowledgment of His awesomeness. The "Lord's Prayer" isn't and never was supposed to be a mantra - but an acknowledgment of God's greatness, His majesty, His power and His glory. And we would do well to remember that, with all humility. Then, we have a proper place to fit the prayer in Eph 1:15ff. Without the latter becoming some sort of ego trip. While I'm about it - and this is a bit - we all know Rom 10:9-10 - but the preceding verses relate back to the blessings and cursings of Deut 28-30, where a clear choice is laid out for the believers of that time. I've met Way "ministers" (allegedly ordained) that have never even read Deut 30!!! The way The Way thought they could get us "born again" and confessing Jesus as Lord is so facile that it's a wonder anyone got helped - there are some posters here who recognize what a dreadful place they had come from and lived the "cursings" part. Choose you this day [now] .... Your decision, people, individuals. Choose, after carefully thinking about. It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance - not the effusiveness of PFAL - did people have time to reflect upon and contemplate God's goodness? Or were they railroaded into some sort of confession of - whatever - and scared into some version of SIT? Present a facile image of Jesus the Christ, don't give time to think about anything or make a considered choice, scare 'em or bully 'em into SIT (or scare 'em away from it forever) - and wham! got 'em hooked for life. That old "bait and switch" again.

Socks, I managed to get via Gideons a giant print NIV New Testament & Psalms (they also do large print - smaller than giant). NIV only. My Mum can now read it with ease and regards this Bible as her most treasured possession. Gideons give their Bibles out free (though donations are probably welcome). You might want to see if you can get a Bible via them. I too tend to "think" in KJV, perhaps most of us here do. And to use here, for familiarity's sake. I study using KJV, lots of resources, Amplified, Companion, etc. But for just reading, I prefer to read something a little fresher and more modern. For those who read New KJV (and isn't there another version too, KJV2000 or some such?) - what do you think of it? There are some subtle and some not so subtle differences in translation, not just updating words and phrases. Why do you like it? Do the differences bother you, do you find them helpful or annoying, do you revert in your thinking back to KJV?

Why does it matter who the thesis is intended to be read by? As long as "jargon," being terms where the meaning is known by a particular closed group, surely whatever Steve finds should be available to all? We ex-TWI folk have had enough jargon (Wayspeak) to last our lifetimes. Steve's terms have to be defined, not known and understood only by the in-crowd. With such a mixed bunch of fellow students, jargon may be naturally limited. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what "social outlier" or "post-modern deconstruction" mean! Steve, look forward to your postings on this thread.

We share this planet with so many things both visible and invisible to the naked eye...bacteria, viruses, for example; and huge whales which some may have seen; and other critters that are still to be discovered. Don't see why we shouldn't also be sharing it with other beings that are entirely different... angels, cherubim, seraphim (maybe, though they're all mentioned in heavenly terms) ... let's not forget we are also sharing it not only with angels but with the fallen angels aka devil spirits as well. Or maybe the angels and fallen angels are some linking form of spiritual being that can work with the cherubim and seraphim and whatever other beings there are in "the heavenlies" (the living creatures in Ezekiel, for instance) as well as with/for human beings and Earth-bound critters? Krys, love your angel story.

Thou art welcome, Miss Buff. I find I've read KJV so much that the words often slide past my eyes without registering - or perhaps I'm trying not to acknowledge some sort of teaching around a verse. Anyway, other versions give slightly different insights, nuances, ways of looking at a verse. Sometimes, too, a few words have been attached to a different phrase, or the punctuation is different, which gives a different emphasis to what is being said.

I like Holman Christian Standard, which I happened across at a Christian bookshop. Never seen one before or since, but it's known by others in my church. Biblestudytools (noted above) describes it thus: "The HCS is a highly readable, accurate translation written in modern English. It is published by Holman Bible Publishers, the oldest Bible publisher in America. word-for-word" It seems well translated with good nuances, yet it's easy to read. The Message is so off-the-wall that at times you'll scratch your head wondering what passage you are reading - it's a zillion miles from KJV - yet once you understand what it's saying, you "get it" in Petersen's version. I had a New Living Translation (NLT) at one time but gave it to a newly-exploring Christian because of its readability: "Using modern English, the translators of the NLT focused on producing clarity in the meaning of the text rather than creating a literal, word-for-word equivalence. Their goal was to create a clear, readable translation while remaining faithful to original texts. thought-for-thought." Hope you find something that suits you, Excie.

Thought it might be interesting to consider what we might be reading nowadays. Does anyone from choice still read KJV? When I first started to recover from TWI, I read The Message, which is about as far away from KJV as you can get. Now, I read other versions, one or two in particular. This list is from one of the popular Bible study websites, Biblestudytools.com, abridged from a list of their most popular versions. There are, of course, lots of other lists of "most popular" Bibles so apologies if your favorite isn't included. You might also like to add comments about why you use the version(s) you do - what's good about them.

He certainly did those things. I knew nothing of what activities male homosexuals engage in - but after practically a whole year of CN seemingly devoted to this topic - I "know" far more than anyone could ever want to know. Even, perhaps, some male homosexuals. How come Martindale "knew" so much? Was any of it true? (Too much information. Please don't enlighten me, anyone) Good, glad they had some use. The Allens would have been able to subpoena TWI and demand the tapes of relevant CNs be released (cos you know TWI recorded everything, don't you?!) The judge would have found those ... very ... revealing.

Penworks, you still have all that stuff? I burned all my notes, Corps notes, SNS, those "classes" - everything except my journals. I looked at some of the notes before I burned them. They were painful then, when they were a more or less verbatim record of what was said at Corps Night (woe betide anyone who didn't have a very detailed set of notes!) and they were painful when I looked at them all these years later. The hate emanating from the written words... All I would have kept them for was to use to post here - and I haven't the inclination to rummage through them all to find relevant snippets. Some of you are very dedicated. As international Corps, we weren't on hookup but did get the tape every week, which we had to listen to in a formal setting on the proper date (properly dressed just as if for CN in the flesh), take notes, no re-winds, and definitely no copies. If I'd recorded the tapes... would love to let them go to potential litigants, but otherwise, couldn't bear to listen. The only reasons, IMO, that they wouldn't want you to record is that (a) what they teach is so off-the-wall they'd make themselves laughing stocks were it to become public; and (b) to avoid any kind of legal proceedings - especially from those whom they slandered so freely. Of which (b) is the real reason, I think.

Waysider, you mean you believed - that? I doubt there's a shred of anything to support that (really!) and in any case, why would God so limit himself? Only an arrogant human being would think such a thing. God has more than one way of "speaking" and it's often not with words at all.