Twinky

C'mon, Mike. Your inability to pay attention to small details like people's names is --- rather telling about your attention to detail elsewhere. And your ability to conflate experiences and opinions shows you just don't care, despite your protestations otherwise. Wouldn't matter if we all sat around here in the Cafe with paper bags on our heads and drinking our coffee through straws. You'd still hear the different voices and opinions, and manage to distinguish those.

I picked this up from Quora. It's a little way down the page: https://www.quora.com/How-do-Jewish-people-interpret-Isaiah-9-6 https://qr.ae/prr3If Susan Krakowsky M.A. in Near Eastern Languages, Ph.D. in Mass Communication Author has 6.8K answers and 1.4M answer views2y Related Some believe Isaiah 9:6-7 is speaking in reference to King Hezekiah, and most Messianic Jews and Christians believe its about Jesus; what is the correct way of reading this and could there be a parallel? Not one single verse of our Jewish scripture whatsoever refers to Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Huitzilopochtli, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy or any leader or central figure of any other non-Jewish system. Of course, if you know of some religious leader who bore the name in Isaiah 9:6, “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” instead of being named Jesus, Mohammed, Huitzilopochtli or whatever, maybe you will have a candidate. Let us know. CORRECTION: I made a mistake in depending on a Christian translation. That Christian translation changed the tenses from past to future [Twinky's emphasis] I have now looked at the Hebrew. The passage is in the past tense. It is not a prediction. It is a report. It is about a name that a person has already been called. In the Hebrew, the verse explicitly says, in the past tense: “A child was born to us. A son has been given to us. Government (or authority) is on his shoulder. And his name has been called, ‘God-plans-a wonder-God-is-wonderful-Mighty-Eternal-a-Peaceable Ruler” Isaiah 9:6.(The JPS translation is almost exactly this, also.) Sorry, I should have looked at the Hebrew earlier. A lesson to us all about Posting in Haste! My final paragraph still stands, where I said that of course Mary, in the New Testament, does not name her child Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace [or anything like ‘God-plans-a wonder-God-is-wonderful-Mighty-Eternal-a-Peaceable Ruler,” either]. Nobody I can find in the whole New Testament ever addresses Jesus by any such name or any other name that is a long sentence, either. Consulting the Hebrew takes care of any attempts to apply the verse to Jesus, about eight centuries after Isaiah’s time, even assuming that somebody thinks they can find an example in the New Testament where Jesus’ name is a long sentence about God being eternal and wonderful, peaceably planning miracles - or any other long sentence.

Have you ever tried looking on their website? It tells you who the BoD are and gives contact details. Not hard, Mike.

I asked (emailed) my Jewish friend. If she says anything helpful, I'll let you know.

Here's a different translation: https://mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et1009.htm 5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; 6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. ( I don 't think they mean "Pele the footballer)

This verse, commonly read in late December, has always been a total puzzle to me. Conventional Christian theory takes a part of this and then applies the whole of it to Jesus, assuming it's a prophecy of his birth. I was going to ask a Jewish friend for the conventional Jewish understanding but did a bit of research myself on Jewish sites. Chabad is quite well recognised ; I found this site on a recommendation from a former poster here. Authorised ("King James") version: 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Here's another version of the whole chapter, and if you don't like this, you can easily choose a different version at the top of the page: https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/9.htm Chabad.org explains it thus: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm 5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." הכִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ פֶּ֠לֶא יוֹעֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבּ֔וֹר אֲבִי־עַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֽוֹם: This makes complete sense to me. And some further background is here: https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/can-you-give-a-reason-why-jews-say-isaiah-96-does-not-refer-to-jesus In particular, the last 3 sentences of this article sum up my "puzzle" exactly. Does anyone have any further thoughts, background knowledge, other sources?

I wondered that, too, Charity. What with abbreviations and Mike's own unique and very curious Mikespeak, it gets a little difficult at times.

To you, too, Penworks. Nice to see you paying a visit. A couple of topics here might catch your attention.

This reminds me of something that happened when I was out street-pastoring in the city. This drunk male approached our team of four. We were all from different churches, and three different denominations. He started sounding off about how terrible the Christian message is. He said: "You all believe ..." Us: "Actually, no we don't. We believe..." Then he said: "You all believe ..." And we said: "Actually, no we don't. We believe..." And during our 20 minute encounter, with one voice (but separately) we proclaimed God's love, the Lord Jesus, the grace that's given to us, and other good news. The drunk male ambled off after a while. And the team went the other direction, chuckling at this man's ramblings, misunderstandings, accusations, etc. Because we were all solidly of one heart and mind in being within, and expressing, God's love. Quit with the rigid theological tramlines, Mike. Explore a bit. Get out of the box. If you are in some theological box with God, your God is way too small. Or maybe, "Way too small." "Meditate on the scriptures" - you can look up your own Bible verses on that, but here's your starter-for-ten: But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart (Luke 2:19). So you see: Mary, Jesus's mother, "pondered," considered, allowed herself to think deeply. You are not "out of fellowship" or destined for a fall ("like Eve") if you think, consider, ponder, meditate, try to understand (like Mary). You might even find yourself more deeply in fellowship - with God.

You have repeatedly, over many years, been told the truth - the truth that will set you free. You have repeatedly, over many years, been urged to read different Bible versions, and specifically, to read the Gospels. You have repeatedly, over many years, been urged to join in community events with Christians (not Wayfers) local to you. You have repeatedly, over many years, been urged to think carefully and engage careful thinking skills to consider all aspects of the Bible. You have repeatedly, over many years, been presented with Bible verses right here, at GSC, to give you the opportunity to consider scriptures and how other people perceive them or try to put them into action. If you read carefully, you will see that although there may be divergences in understanding at times, there is more in common than in divergence. Now if being told the truth, reading the Gospels, hanging out with real Christians, thinking in depth, and thus considering divergences and commonalities - isn't Good News to you - nothing will ever be Good News, except for the impossible expectation of Jesus Christ returning with the Orange Book in his hand. And sorry, Mike - nobody here can see that happening. Ever. Never. Most of us simply look forward with hope for the return of Jesus Christ.

Does he honestly think that believers in TWI are the only ones who "pray in " the new year? Really? Millions (or maybe billions?) of Christians worldwide do this. "The impact is yet to be fully realized, but I imagine the results will reach far and wide towards the deliverance of God's people and the advancement of the Word." Our church took a hike on NY Day to a high viewpoint over the central city and the northern suburbs. We stood as a group and prayed over the city and its people. We prayed for peace in the city, and for all who live, work and otherwise enjoy the city, including the millions of tourists we receive each year. We prayed for church leaders locally, nationally and worldwide, and for world leaders. We prayed for countries in conflict. We prayed for ways to reach out to those who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. We prayed for ourselves, for better understanding, more wisdom, and such like, so as to know the Lord better and to know how to reach out better. We did not pray only for "God's people" and for "the advancement of the Word" [aka TWI's version of the Word]. We prayed for people to come to the Lord, to get to know him - by whatever means, through whatever church. Then, we went back to church, sang a few hymns of praise, prayed some more, and enjoyed holy communion. And then lots of fellowship with each other. A better way to start the new year, methinks.

They have a ... a Research Department now? Hmph. One can only ask what credentials, if any, the researchers have. And also, what will come out of any such research. Will they gloss over what doesn't suit them, and twist whatever else there is to support their PoV? Researching pistis. Hmph again. It might help if instead of playing with words, they actually developed some pistis, whether "faith" or "believing" or whatever they want to call it, and put that into action. I mean, genuine, committed compassion in action directed at improving community life, without any element of self-glorification or kudos to themselves.

Full of dead men's bones, like this. And this: Not seeing much life here.

More whited sepulchres

Mike, you're shifting the goalposts again. Context is, as others have pointed out to you: "You can't go beyond what you've been TAUGHT" [not: what you've been reminded of]. And then you shift off to talk about Way tree structure and "Reverends" and suchlike. ( I'm almost surprised that you didn't stick in a plug to say that's what the wretched collaterals are for - "reminding" us.) Acts 8: The eunuch had Stephen to teach[some versions say "guide"] him. Then the eunuch was baptised. Presumably he then had "holy spirit" to teach him further, from the pocket-scrolls that he clearly had. He was "rejoicing" that he now knew, and had holy spirit to guide and teach him. No hint that he had to join any organisation, or submit to any minister/ rabbi/ prophet/ apostle, to continue his insight, once Stephen had opened the eyes of his understanding. guide ὁδηγήσει (hodēgēsei) Verb - Future Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 3594: To lead, guide; met: I instruct, teach. From hodegos; to show the way (teach). (@Mike: Bigger print in above para, so that you can see it clearly. Nothing about "reminding.")

I think we have a pretty good teacher. If you can go beyond what the holy spirit is willing to teach - well, you're doing well. You must be bigger than God. Whose knowledge is infinite. John 14:6 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you. Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.” However, going beyond what some human being taught you is definitely achievable. God graciously gave us brains to think and to work things out. He expect us to use this marvellous gift, this ability to think.

There's a school of thought that says life is an eternal NOW. Right now, Jesus is being born. Is living and ministering. Is being crucified. Is being resurrected. And Moses too is right now being born, living, dying and - whatever. Likewise, following that line of thought, our great-great-great grandparents and our great-great-great grandchildren are being born, living, dying, and ... ? I understand quantum physics sees time in a different way. Jesus, Moses, your ancestors and your descendants, are all alive now (as well as being dead). But not alive in any way we can comprehend. Oldies, we have only one earthly life to live. We don't get a second go (reincarnation). I do not believe in any purgatory or post-life redemptive process (prayers for the souls of the dead, doing penance etc) except what's dross in my life will be excised, burned up, removed, so that all that remains is what I did in love. Somehow, the positive energy of what was done in love remains. How? Who knows? The best anyone can do is live life the best they can, love God the best they can, help fellow human beings the best they can, and leave everything else to God.

Just getting up. Stayed over with a friend, got an early morning cup of tea in bed. Good way to start the new year Lots if fireworks in the valley last night, and in the surrounding hill ridges. Big noises, bangs and low rumblings. .When I was a child, the church bells used to ring, and on a distant train line, engine whistles were blown. No fireworks. Sometimes, someone would come "first footing," and bearing a piece of coal - supposed to bring good luck. These days, not so much of any of that. People are in pubs celebrating together, or at private parties. And they go outside and frighten neighbourhood babies and animals with noisy fireworks. Peace, people. Great travel bag, T-Bone.

What really weird is when I fly to the antipodes... I arrive home before one of my flights has departed, or some such nonsense. Mind you, sometimes when going there I leap from one day to another two days hence. That could be really weird. If you left Australia, NZ or the Pacific Islands on 1 Jan, you might not arrive in Malaysia, Singapore, or wherever until 31 Dec the previous year... I think I'd better go to bed, my brain will start hurting soon. Dateline travel is very odd.

Happy new year to you all, folks. I'm already into 2023 but most of you will still be lingering in 2022. Let's try putting an argumentative year behind and moving on in a little more companionable way, hey? (I can see this as a NY resolution lasting a good 30 seconds.) Stay safe, stay well, and have a joyful year.

Regrettably I find it impossible to listen to American preachers at all now. VPW's voice gives me the creeps, and Juedes - well, I can listen to him, but other American preachers are hard. So it was rather difficult for me when the new lead vicar appointed by my church - is an American. Yikes! Even after living in the UK for decades, his accent has softened but is still very evident. He's a great guy, preaches as well and accurately as any, and I'm learning to overcome my prejudice. Okay, now back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Too far along a different path now. Better to look forward. I'd rather write about what I've learned since. Which has a root in what happened then - but indirectly. As I've posted before, I now do a lot of work in gardens. I have learned so much about God and learning what works and what doesn't. How a plant can flourish in unsuitable locations and how it doesn't thrive in what looks as though it should be perfect. I could easily write a book about that! How tending a desired plant, pruning it, nourishing it, weeding, companion plants, giving support, etc, all help. How to shape a plant, to show it at its best. Plants' resilience. Plants' fruitfulness, growth and dormancy periods. Positioning so that none gets in the way of others but that they work well together in shape, colour and usefulness, despite there being many different plants. The weeds: the things that'll spoil the desired plant by taking its nutrients, or entwining it and deforming it, or swamping it with foliage the desired plant can't cope with. Other pests: insects, viruses, and such like. Sometimes even the best(looking) locations sometimes just don't suit a plant. Why? I don't know, but the plant knows. God knows. Put it somewhere else and that might make all the difference. Even sickly plants can be helped along, though they often won't ever do so well. And then there are some plants, that no matter how much care and attention are given simply will not thrive. They seem to get smaller the more they're helped. Ultimately, the only solution is to remove them completely and put something else in place. What sort of plant are you? Are you in the right location, with enough nutrients, light, shade, moisture, and pollinators? Or are you stunted because you don't have your needs adequately met? Are your blooms, perfumes and fruits as delightful as they should be?

Nathan, you could group your posts together and post in My Story if you wish; add more info, too. It's a non-contentious forum (usually!) that elicits much sympathy.

Poor Mike. Such delusions.