Twinky

Mea culpa. Apologies to Sky and OldSkool, but yes, I meant WELL DONE, OLDSKOOL.

Absolutely, Sky, "forgetting" is a big part of why some fall into addiction - drugs, alcohol, whatever dulls the pain of what it is they want to forget. Often it's abusive childhoods, whether physical (beaten by dad, say) or mental (constantly put down by mum, say). Your sister abused you by plying you with alcohol at 10yo. Awful. Funny for her, potentially fatal for you at that young age. Great that you've come through it to be the fine man you are now. You have a lot that you can use to help others. It takes much guts for anyone to admit dependency and then to face up to whatever got an individual to be dependant in the first place. And then to come through that is serious success.

Absolutely, Sky, and that's where churches can play a big role. Bigger churches = bigger role. My little church has got a growing Youth group of once-disaffected kids, who started coming around when we opened and being generally unruly. These kids (boys) were in the 9-12 age group usually. Parents having a lie-in on Sunday morning, kids up and about, and nothing for them to do except roam around in groups doing whatever youths find to do - making mischief usually. Not bad kids, just bored and pushing boundaries. Youth minister took them out the back and played football with them. Showed them he cared. Gradually got to teach them that just as football has rules, so does life. Play by the rules and all goes much better. Today, those kids are responsible young men who anyone would be pleased to be around. That early intervention has doubtless saved the boys from trouble with police, and an uncertain future. If that's what a little church can do - how much more can a big church do? If it cares, and isn't so big that the vulnerable can get lost?

Drugs are a problem everywhere. And yes, I know that a few mansions won't solve the problem point I'm making is that the megachurch pastors shouldn't be haing huge mansions all to themselves. That's just extreme greed. Question to solve is: why do people want to start taking drugs in the first place? Whether that drug be something illicit, or something legal but to excess, or alcohol, or whatever. There's a root cause, which is often abuse, poor family background, lack of self-esteem, and suchlike. Generally, not exclusively, rooted in unsatisfactory personal relationships. And that may be something to do with the pursuit of money above the pursuit of good family interactions. In this, churches of all kinds can help. Use their platform to teach about proper family values; respect for individuals within a family, how to be supportive to one another in a family or a community; looking out for each other in a genuine way; and suchlike. No doubt megachurches do run some kinds of family values courses (free? or at a cost?), but the fact remains that there is a great imbalance between what happens at the top (the famous pastor and his family, and their mansions, jets and cars) and what happens at the bottom. I wonder if a genuinely homeless person would be welcome in such a megachurch worship space.

Did VPW think he understood the Bible better than the writers? Probably VPW thought he understood the Bible better than God, who made the means for the papyrus or paper, the ink and the quill or whatever, with which the Bible was written. But whatever VPW thought is irrelevant to understanding the Bible, so just forget about him.

Quote function doesn't seem to work properly, Rocky. For whatever reason, it doesn't "end" and seems to tuck the poster's fresh words into the quote box itself.

Johniam - oh, Billy Graham did? Others say differently: Until his dying day, he believed that communism was a malevolent attempt to usurp the sovereignty of God on earth. But he changed in how he thought Christians should behave towards Communists—the people, not the ideology—and in how he thought the gospel should be presented to regimes that officially rejected Christianity. https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/billy-graham/how-billy-graham-killed-communism-kindness-iron-curtain.html And so say other articles. Do check your facts. Oh, and it would be useful if you found out how to use the Quote function, or at least set out your posts in a better manner.

And VPW didn't make money of whatever he himself flogged in the bookstore? Of "his" many publications? Off PFAL books themselves, as well as the PFAL class? And didn't Craig continue that same means of raising money?

Don't forget the piercing blue eyes! LOL. It's always been interesting to me that there are no physical descriptions in the Bible - not of Jesus, and precious few of other people. This one was tall, that one had a gammy leg, another was fat. In addition, one might be blind, or deaf, etc. Always a purpose, when a physical attribute is described. Perhaps that's a lesson to us, to look beyond physical appearance. Yet we are so often swayed by appearance, rather than actions. If Jesus were presented as a man in a kippah/skullcap, or with a keffiyeh (Arab style male head dress) - or a fez or a turban or, in our time, a motorcycle helmet - would we accept the message? Or would prejudice get in the way? Going off track a bit. This is supposed to be in Humor. Oops, Jesus is going to get a fine for not wearing a helmet!!!

That's true, Sky, though in context, the megachurches are pretty much US based. (Other countries/cultures have their own local "mega" variants.) Since these megachurches thrive on "donations" and "tithes" I wonder where the recipients "tithe"? Or do they see everything as supporting them in their "work" and "ministries," and the purchase of jets and fancy cars as furthering their ministries? (I see no report of Jesus trading up to buy a faster, stronger, donkey - or indeed any donkey!) Some of them claim to have no salary. Yeah, right. Just paid in kind in mansions, planes, cars, holidays. A mansion is only worthwhile (from the church PoV) if it's used for ministry purposes - how many homeless families could be housed in some of these mansions? Could the mansions be used for work such as helping addicts through recovery? Refuge for those suffering domestic abuse? Homes for widows and orphans? Do you see any of that happening?

There are caves in Toledo? Or wherever LCM now lives? LOL. Actually, doesn't he live under a rock somewhere, rather than in a Rock?

I think T-Bone's post (p.41 of Why PFAL Sucks) is relevant here:

And then, when you collapse from exhaustion or have a fit of the weepies, you get hauled in by the corps coord and asked if you're spiritually up to it, or are you too weak to hack God's work.

Ain't that the truth! Most of you here were under VPW's control. I suffered under LCM. Now that really was hell. Walking on eggshells all the time and never sure when his outrage would burst out (mind you, he learned some of that from the master manipulator himself). I was wrecked when they kicked me out. Am still not "whole" now, just doing the best possible with my disjointed self. Those poor fools that are still participating in the corps program - who think themselves spiritual elites, and that we who are no longer around are losers, grease spots, spat on by God - can't help but feel a bit sorry for them. They still have all the despair, hopelessness, fear, and compromise to come. Hey, here's the Cafe. We'll catch you if we can .

There's no end to those willing to abuse - and to be abused.

Very sad that this is so symptomatic of US society that values money more than anything else. A greed-based society. True prosperity is having enough and thriving. Doing well for yourself - which doesn't just mean having enough money, but having enough in all aspects of life: love, friendship, community, self-respect, respect for others. Time to enjoy life. Opportunity to spend doing things you love with those you love. And yes, being successful at the work you do. The word for "prosper" means, basically, "go well, have a good journey." Basically, prosperity is having a good life, not just in the financial sense, but just living a comfortable, thriving, enjoyable, uncomplicated, life. Heck, it's even hard to describe what I want to say, as all the words I'd put are loaded with "prosperity gospel" overtones. may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road, i.e. succeed in reaching; figuratively, to succeed in business affairs. (My emphasis; I see the "figurative" expansion as being a bit of PI unless used in a general sense.) "Prosperity" is one of those words that's changed its meaning, or rather, the overtones have all but obliterated the proper meaning. My great grandad would always greet me@ "How're you prospering, wench?" meaning, "How are you doing, girl?" New Living Translation Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit.

I don't know nuffin'.

You make a good point, Rocky. In fact, there could be some pretty odd conversations between different Chat programs. Would they "realise"?

STL, without checking the references/reading the passages in context, I wonder if some of those strictures (rather than commandments) are in the nature of hyperbole, to underline how serious God's view of something is. (Bit tough on decent men, however, if they did have a physical deformity. Interesting, though, that a man could be as mad as a hatter and there's no complaint against service by such a man.) It could be, however, something that points to no human being really being worthy - except the Lord Jesus himself. Who indeed is physically perfect? As to the reference to Lot and his daughters, there was a lot of cultural significance in (1) carrying on the bloodline [of the male] and (2) women having lots of children [to demonstrate the virility of the male?]. Depending on the time period, there may, or may not, have been a lot of strictures about women having children outside of wedlock. Deut 22 has some suggestions, but that's much later than Genesis. It appears from the fact that the daughters were prepared to have intercourse with their father, that there weren't the taboos against incest that are prevalent nowadays.

As usual, this thread has veered off topic and is now a discussion about VPW, whereas it was originally about LCM starting his own offshoot. In light of the topic heading, maybe people might want to consider LCM in light of the information and descriptors in Joe Navarro's comments, as reported by T-Bone. IMO, he suffers from many of these traits. I draw your attention to point 35 in the list below.

This popped up in my Facebook feed today. Some of you might be interested in adding to your back copies. Do t ask me info. Don't shoot me either, I'm just the messenger. I suspect the email address should be Gmail.com. God bless you. I would like to sell my research books as well as other ministry specific items, including Way magazine, catalog, and other books from the ministry. Curious as if this is the place to do it or not. I have personally been off of Facebook for quite a few years and have recently dipped my toe back into the water If anyone is so inspired to help me to unload research material as well as older ministry stuff, I would be very grateful. Please feel free to email me. bobbyverdi@gmail

Mt 5: 43You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,s 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same? See, you can get blessings whether you are righteous or unrighteous - whether you do what TWI says, or whether you are a grease spot by midnight. You get sun and rain just the same. God's blessings don't depend on us being part of some organisation, or indeed on anything at all apart from God's goodness. However: Php4:Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. If you want God's peace as well as his general blessings, there are things that you need to do. And: John 16:23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. You get blessings because of your confidence and trust in God. Not because of your confidence and trust in some orgnisation. Especially a corrupt one.

I don't think they were cunning, most of them. I think they too were brainwashed. Had learned sychophantic and spying techniques. Definitely learned "reporting back" and if instructed, harassing or threatenig perceived offenders. But weren't cunning as such.

If you haven't already done this, or haven't done it recently, it would be worthwhile checking out EVERY scripture that Jesus quoted and referring back to the OT and reading the whole context surrounding the quote. Why did he say that thing at that time? To which people? What situation is being referenced in the OT, and how does that reflect on the situation that Jesus is addressing? Certainly the whole context would have been part of the whole reference brought in with just a few words, to the hearers. Just as the saying "The word of God is the will of God" brings with it to Wayfers a whole raft of connotations, so what Jesus said would bring with it a whole raft of scriptural and rabbinical teachings of the time.

Exactly! Even all these years, decades, later, I can't easily the epistles in AV (KJV). Too much negative background. The way I overcame this was to read The Message version, which is so simplistic whilst still delivering the same message. My mind simply could not run in PFAL tramlines. And then, I read various other versions. Now, I read one or two particular versions. My church uses NIV, which I don't particularly like.