Twinky

Yeah, Sunesis, I think he argues so very much because he is so very afraid to really look. Look in his own heart. Think. Open his eyes. Bet he could throw great tantrums when he was two years old. I've just been sitting back and watching in amusement while he rolls on the carpet screaming.

So here are all these wannabes with "ministries" and they all have special knowledge of God and they're all willing to impart it to you – for a price. For those who still profess Christianity: Could you just remind me again – how many books was it that Jesus wrote? And sold, to fund his lifestyle? For post-Pentecost followers of Paul: There were plenty of epistles that he wrote to all the young churches. How much d'you suppose he charged per page of the letters known as 1 and 2 Corinthians? And what d'you suppose he charged Timothy, for training and ordaining him? For post-Pentecost followers of the more Jewish apostles? Remind me again – what did likely lads like James, Jude and Peter charge for copies of their books/epistles? For OT followers: How much did Moses charge for training the leaders, in Ex 18:25? And there must have been instruction manuals, books, scrolls, what-have-you, to ensure that they did it correctly, yes? Too difficult to write it all down in the desert? Okay, how about Ezra's teachings in Neh 8? It's quite clear that there were written documents then, including lots of written documentation about kings and laws and so forth; so here in the book of Nehemiah, where the instruction of lots of people is described – surely all those new "converts" must have required special instruction books? And special training for the newly-appointed leaders? That Jesus! He had such stupid ideas! Just how was he planning to fund his stable of racing donkeys? Matthew 10 (King James Version) 1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out , and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; … 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth , and commanded them, saying , Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. … 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. I don't read anywhere in this or associated records: Sell 'em the book Here's secret knowledge that you can buy (and on-sell). Make 'em come to church/synagogue/my pet place of worship (in fact, quite the opposite. There's a warning to beware of those in the synagogues (verse 17)). Tell 'em to check out my work/long period of study We have a class that, for a fee, will help you understand better. Don't tell if they won't buy I do read, in relation to a similar outreach: Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given , he offered them money, 19 Saying , Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. ("Clear off, and take your money with you!") Wow! Imagine that from one of these wannabes with a ministry!! What kind of a cult would that be? How on earth could they fund a lavish or even comfortable lifestyle, when money-for-knowledge is rejected?

Though this is turning into an hilarious thread. Rare to see someone ... quite like Composer. Composer: here is something for you: Romans 12:20 KJV Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink [read your OT; they meant water] Or perhaps you'd prefer something else? 1 Timothy 5:23 KJV Drink no longer water , but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (sorry, the photo credits come out oddly)

Strikes me Abigail might be right - research your mark, then make a move. James Trimm sure is starting a lot of topics here, more than any other new poster. But they are nearly all really long posts, excerpts from his other printed matter. Does not properly address points made; does not dialog with other posters. Others have complained that his posts are so long that interest is lost before the point (if there is one) is reached. His "why I left the cult" is so very reminiscent of "why I left the church in Van Wert" and like tales. Not really about why he left, but about self-aggrandisement. Self-glorification. Uh...didn't we all already sit through long and boring chunks of "theology" getting pushed at us with no opportunity to question, or to dialog with the presenter or those in the presenter's stead? Something that looked good until you started to think more about the inconsistencies, the things that weren't explained satisfactorily? Didn't we get beaten into submission once already? Oh lordy me...I greeted a wannabe MoG, not met him before, who buttonholed me and gobbled on and on at me for 25 or 30 minutes without a single acknowledgment of me, or my greeting, or a very minor point I'd made about an error in grammar that he had repeated from PFAL. I let him go on so long just to see if he would ever pause for breath. After that 25 or 30 minutes it was obvious he was never going to respond to me...so I got up and walked away, probably quite rudely, but how rude is it to gobble on and on like that? He is now "ordained" by CFFM and has his own "ministry." (Twinky runs away holding head in hands.) And is James doing anything different? There's a name for someone who just preaches at you and doesn't respond. Or that new person you just met at a party, who buttonholes you in a corner and you can't get away from. Or that guy in the pub who just monopolizes conversation, never quite sees you. Lemme see...bore. Or even, boor. Sorry, James, if I have misinterpreted your actions.

(and Galen, too! )

Good one, chockfull.

There is also so very much in "nature" that we don't fully understand, even if we come up with some sort of explanation. And I think there are influences (call 'em spirit if you like) that affect the wider world around us. But not everything is "spirit" influenced. TWI taught us to look for "devil spirits" everywhere and over-spiritualize everything. We know the "theory" of what causes a volcano to erupt. But can we predict it? Or is it an "attack of the adversary" if it happens to take place when (say) a TWI class is about to take place? The theory of plate techtonics (say) is surprisingly recent. Maybe in a couple of hundred years time, human beings will laugh at that as much as we might laugh now at ideas of "humors" in the body. "Common sense"? Well, who invented common sense? God gave a few basic rules to help us get along. Even people with no religion have "common sense." For an organization that prided itself on its ability with personal relationships - TWI was worse than an erupting volcano. The simmering hatred of the outside world manifested itself in TWI in the dramatic explosions from LCM and others. The concept of "spiritual anger" was everywhere. But the Lord's compassion, forgiveness, kindness, and genuine concern was nowhere to be seen. TWI focused on Jesus's confrontation of Pharisees (never even seeing themselves as Pharisees) and never on Jesus's compassion for people. Forgiveness is such a big thing, and one which many of us here have had to (re)learn. There are heaps of threads on the topic. I'm thankful, as are you, OldSkool, for the loving kindness and forgiveness of friends and family and indeed the general public, as damaged relationships are worked through and repaired. It's grace beyond what could be expected from those we have injured. God gave us brains to think things out. And that involves a realistic assessment of what is going on.

Well done, Gen-2. It's very satisfying growing your own food. You know what goes into it (and what [chemicals] doesn't) and the taste is generally so much better than store-bought food. Well done with the tomatoes. I've never had anything worthwhile of any of my tomatoes.

Finally got some plants in the garden. The path project has occupied all my time and unfortunately a lot of the garden space. Now the surplus soil is residing in two huge 1/2 ton bags near the house, and the soil underneath is now useable. And I can get to the other side of the garden to plant, too. So I fetched a load of well-rotted hoss muck and dug my bean trench, and my beans (grown from seed) went in last night. It has rained overnight (first time for a couple of months) so the soil is going to be nicely moistened and get them off to a good start. I found a couple of volunteer potato plants in the area where the beans should be so I've left them. Let them do their thing, why not, they must be the best and pretty vigorous. Had some nice volunteer spuds last year. Very tasty. Getting a bit late in the season for planting a lot of things (like onions) but at least I should be able to get some quick-growing salad crops and then later put in some things that will mature over winter (brassicas and such like). The path project is not finished, and will not be finished for at least a month (maybe longer, depending on Mr Muscle's work commitments; a big work project is likely to be coming up so it might mean 3 months).

Never saw this thread before, but I have read it all. What a tragic waste of talent and ability. Desperate that our God-given abilities and talents were beaten out of us, or squashed to within a thread of themselves. I'm just thinking now - in study hall, perhaps more good would have been done if instead of endless rehashing of FNC, SNS, CN and other tapes - or cancelling and sending us off to chop wood - if they'd given us a box of paints and told us to paint and draw like little kids in school (I say that because some people would say they have no artistic ability). Or given us proper singing lessons (not how to wave the arms around supposedly leading a song). Or if, for one's "research paper" those who were artists couldn't have produced a painting illustrating something of value to them, that they'd learned whilst in rez. Think of all the latent talent that could have been unearthed. Glad those of you who have artistic abilities are finding your metier again.

No doubt this is a fascinating discussion. Could somebody please synthesise the arguments or post a synopsis or give bite-sized chunks? I'm all for rooting out Weirwille rubbish and misdirection, but I need something accessible that is of interest, before my eyes glaze over with excess of words. It's excess of words that got us all into trouble in the first place.

Hey, can you post the one about the Dead Sea Scrolls, please?

Women were of pretty little significance. And the more ability the woman has/had, the less significance she had. Corps women especially. Their main purpose was to service, sorry serve, TWI men. Not to be competent in their own right. (Unless perhaps the woman's name is Rosalie.) (list as amended)

Cap'n Drive-By has been a member for less than a year. It takes some time to disentangle. Perhaps just posting here is the "first step" to his eventual escape. It took some of us a long time to begin to shake off Waybrain. And that's when for whatever reason we're already out. For an innie, perhaps it's harder. Please don't beat on him so hard that he doesn't want to come back to the Cafe ... so hard that in fact belonging to TWI is a nicer place to be . Cos although we know it ain't - but he doesn't know that yet.

Romans 10:4 KJV For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth These are some of the laws: Exodus 24:12 KJV And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written ; that thou mayest teach them. This takes place right after the giving of the Ten Commandments and several chapters of other commandments in Ex 20-23 – called "the book of the covenant." At this time the making of burnt offerings, peace offerings, etc was already well established (Ex 24:5ff and records in Genesis). The OT believers had rituals for washing, for offering animal sacrifices as burnt offerings, sin offerings, peace offerings, etc, and these became enforced as "laws." These rituals and the "heart behind them" (sorry for the phrase) made those believers righteous. Pharisees added a whole new lot of other "external" laws (which they strictly enforced) to make people "righteous" and look good, without in any way serving God or his people. But remember: Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham is around from Genesis 12. Romans spends a lot of time going into Abraham's righteousness and believing, which predates the exodus and the giving of the law by at least that 430 years. Adam & Eve obviously didn't have "the law" – again, a lot of references in Romans about this. Romans 4:3 KJV For what saith the scripture ? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 KJV Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. James 2:23 KJV And the scripture was fulfilled which saith , Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. God doesn't want us going through rituals (Heb 10:8). He just wants us to believe Him. What has always really annoyed me (right from PFAL) is the way Wayfers always said, "Jesus Christ is the end of the law" therefore the Ten Commandments don't apply to us. (If you said, "the text says, end of the law for righteousness," you'd get the look that said, "You've added something to the Word!") Basically they tore up the "rule book." If they went further, they might add that our sonship rights said that we are righteous now because of what JC did. They forgot that the 10 Cs are rules for living rightly (righteously) along and for having correct personal relationships - and so all their personal relationships went to hell in a handbasket. They forgot what the essentials of "right living" might actually mean. It makes sense to me that we aren't bound by "laws for righteousness" but it doesn't mean that we aren't bound by immutable laws of God as to how to live properly. Like this synthesis: Luke 10:27 And he [Jesus] answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Do that, and all the rest follows.

Uh, Waysider, Santa Claus was behind the curtain? Makin' out with the Wizard?

FWIW, I just found this in my journal: a lunchtime sharing (?) by LCM in October 1992: Now, I wonder what one of my Corps sisters might have made of that - being as she was from a native American tribe although not one that was from that area. Nor was she from any of the tribes WW mentions. This came after insulting Europeans and their "spiritual darkness." That man surely had read, "How to win Friends and Influence People" - yeah, right.

TWO YEARS OLD and ALREADY SMOKING FORTY A DAY???? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: The kid can't run or walk ... and his dad thinks he looks healthy enough??????

Oh Chockfull, I don't doubt that TWI has "got" something on many of those at/near the top. But why did they stay ? Why stay long enough to get near the top? What'd TWI done to break their will? And I didn't mean people's tales in general. I meant Bolch@lk's in particular. Though to be fair, the version I got (and the rest of the in rez Corps at the time) was straight out of LCM's outraged mouth, and he was hardly known for his honesty and integrity in the accusations he made.

Bolch@lk was a very early beat-on-the-head "purchase." His tale of why he is still in the WC is definitely one of thost "what God did for me" tales. Does he tell anyone about ...? When they threw him out of the in rez WC? Then graciously accepted his grovelling apology and took him back in (the usual mind game)? Dunno what he was like before; but afterwards, he couldn't do enough to stay in their good graces and remain in the WC. It just made things a bl00dy sight more difficult for the rest of his Corps bros and sis - because we got the screws tightened on us even more, since we were clearly such a wilful and disobedient Corps (they didn't threaten to throw us all out though, not on that particular occasion). Hah, that'd be a good sharing. Bet you never heard it.

This and some other of James Trimm's topics are very interesting - but need to be in Doctrinal, surely, not in About The Way?

Old Skool, shame on you. It sounds very much to me like you were trying to be an exception, not exceptional. Did you think the whole program turned on you? That you were the most important person? You should have tried to be invisible - not be a squeaky wheel, constantly egotistically drawing attention to yourself. And other such rubbish. That "don't be an exception, be exceptional" was a real big stick to beat people into submitting into the mold. Glad you managed to retain some individuality. And Tonto, that's what they told us, in rez, too,a decade or so later too but before Old Skool. If your sponsors didn't send sponsorship money, it was because you, the person sponsored, were not taking care of them (yeah, right, like you were there right with them... or even really had time to write the obligatory letters!). Never mind what disasters might have befallen them.

Sorry to see you go, Jeff, but it's your life to spend as you think best, and there isn't a substitute for spending time with people. I'll miss your humorous posts, though, and your insight. Maybe you'll find you're addicted and you'll come back. Your son is worth every bit of the love and time you put into him. Hang in there, teaching him whatever it takes to grow into the fine young man you see him as, and equipped with all the wisdom he needs to avoid ravening wolves and false teachers. Best wishes for whatever you do in the future.

Dunno, soul searcher, but I wonder if there are people adding "votes" and that's what bumps it. There have to be more than 40 people who still hang around in the Cafe...don't there? Even though it has been quiet lately.

So that's why, when I was in rez, the staff quarters were basically off limits! Actually when in rez I don't think I gave any much thought as to what staff did. They did hang out with each other (well, who else is there?) and obviously could go off grounds (or could they?). In rez you hardly had time to think about what you yourself were doing except getting to the next meeting, meal, class, whatever - never mind what anyone else might be doing.