Twinky

Leafy, that is completely bizarre! You could only write "approved" notes? (LOL) This is one of their bizarre things that I've never heard of. What year(s) were you discouraged from private study? Linda - Yes, courage to carry on. But perhaps they were more used to death (especially early death) in those days - not the antibiotics and other drugs to deal with childhood illnesses. Still takes its toll, though. My great grandmother to the end of her days (aged 90) mourned the death of her 18 month old daughter. Old Bibles can also often be picked up cheaply from charity bookshops (an inexpensive way to build up a collection of different versions). I find it strangely insulting that a Bible (whatever version) can be bought for pennies, the same price as some pulp fiction.

Likewise, THW. So much tiny writing in the margins of my Bible - I used a Companion Bible and the margins on that aren't huge. I was also given another Companion Bible as a graduation present. Nowadays I use several other more modern versions, from The Message (wacky!) to ... well, just about anything. Other versions are so much more readable, so much more understandable. But with such a KJV background, I find I use that as a "reference" point, to look up any other scripture. Can't see myself throwing that Bible away, though. Don't you think TWI only used KJV because the (stolen) class used KJV and they were too lazy to import it to another version (eg, NASB)? And also because it gave "The Teacher" the opportunity to show off his "extensive" knowledge of Old English. ...Not that that knowledge was accurate, either grammatically, or in the meanings he assigned to it. And he certainly didn't teach some very significant bits that could have been ascertained from the use of some of the language - like the use of second person singular (thee, thou) in relation to the closeness of the relationship with God as Father (not the formal or remote second person plural (you, ye)).

Be caring Be compassionate Don't be fooled Ask God to guide you Don't be afraid to walk away You don't need to suck any more abuse If she did find you through this site - she is reading our responses too Even LCM said: "Trust is earned." She needs to earn it. You are required to love your enemies. You are not required to trust them

Yes, T&O, I saw that, but I also saw this: "Ryegrass (Lolium) is a genus of nine species of tufted grasses, family Poaceae. Also called tares (even though there is no firm evidence that this is the same as the plant given that name in English language translations of the Bible - vetches are another candidate), these plants are native to Europe, Asia and northern Africa, but are widely cultivated and naturalised elsewhere. Ryegrasses are naturally diploid, with 2n = 14, and are closely related to the fescues Festuca." (underlining mine) I'm not sure, from the parable, whether even the weed needs to resemble the crop. Just removal of the weed has potential to damage the crop. But if the weed is a "look alike" it does make the parable stronger.

This is an interesting discussion - but if you are saying that "tares" look pretty much like "wheat" (rather than looking just like some other weed, a thistle, say) - what are you saying the tares are (botanically - your pastor seems to know!)? I've always taken this parable just as an example - even in a domestic setting, a gardener can sow seeds and then weed seeds blow in and grow amongst the desirable plants - depending on how they're sown, a gardener won't necessarily remove the weed seeds straight away because to do so may disturb the roots of the desirable plants. When the desirable plants have got a little bigger, then the weed seeds may be removed without risk of uprooting or selecting by mistake the desirable plants. In an agricultural setting (and that's what Palestine was, in those days) a farmer doesn't usually spend the time going along the rows of wheat and wheat-like crops, weeding. But the desirable crop, being taller, may well shade out the weeds. Like all parables - beware of taking it too far.

P-Mosh, you're right that that requires another thread; please will you start one? It's a good topic for discussion. It could get lengthy. Jeff, what you've said is something that rankles with me, too. Was Rahab a sort of brothel-keeper, a prostitute who'd made it to "madam"? Maybe; aren't "western" movies often depicting of hostelries with girls attached (or maybe the other way around)? Also, people with something to hide (spies?) often stay in cheap and sleazy surroundings (brothels?), where "nobody tells." Rahab had her own "house" with access to the outdoors (at least the roof); she wasn't imprisoned. Bullinger says the word "harlot" is used in its "usual sense." Maybe she had been forced into prostitution, as you suggest. But perhaps not by her family, who she wanted to be saved also (Joshua 2:13, 6:23,25). Whatever, she certainly didn't like her cultural surroundings very much. A traitor to her own tribe, city. Why would she want to do that? She didn't do it for the money. She wanted safety, rescue from them. Rescue from sexual degradation? Perhaps she and her family were "foreigners" who had lived in the city for a while but weren't totally accepted. She would be an interesting "skeleton in the closet" - an ex-prostitute made good and elevated in the invaders' eyes. How people'd see her would depend very much on their viewpoint! What God thinks is pretty significant - as BoJ says, one of few named women in the Bible.

Like this?

The hook is the sometimes good stuff (at least, it sounds good, to the unitiated, until they have time to consider it) stuff. It's bait. Set out to entrap the loyal, as Dot says. Once the bait is taken, then the victim is slowly, oh so slowly, reeled in. As VPW said in PFAL, even the Devil knows the Word. There's just enough "word" to deceive. Dorian, you could try contradictory things with your friend. If you ignored her enthusiasm for TWI, what would be likely to happen, would she stop pushing against you and towards TWI? Or if you affected enthusiasm, would she back off? The book "Toxic Faith" might help - you. "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" might help - it lays the snare right out in the open. And Kris Skedgell's radio episode here at the Cafe - well, I guess she would think it all lies. Pray for your friend. And just "be there" in a supportive way.

From the "Stress" thread Get real, what would they / VPW look like, huh, cartoon wolves in sheep's clothing? Slathering jaws under a sheepskin rug? Good point, Rascal.

Good one, Dot! Well said. Newlife, haven't heard your story before...appalling. I believe you, and I am very sorry it happened to you. It was completely inappropriate.

Nothing edifying about these, why on earth would you want to listen? (shudder) I'd be joining Polar Bear on that bridge! For best effects, though, you would want some of the Corps Night tapes, SNS are tame by comparison.

Well, if people send you PMs or emails, are you going to post the answers here so that we can all know?

Oh gosh, I think there would be heaps about me in my book of life. All those complaints about - I was joyful one day; another day I suggested something a little different from whatever the coordinator said; I was on dishroom mega times; I got tired and a bit cranky and cried after 20 hour days for over a week and the rest of the two-week AC (or whatever) period still to go; I looked at somebody the wrong way; I forgot (or just plain didn't) stand up when some clergy entered a room; I was late for midday meal once; I was late for breakfast once...the list of my sins is endless. Mostly I was not meek enough. (We really need a Raspberry emoticon here!) DWBH I am appalled by what you say about the sets of books, and how much income was generated and how much used.That's money that was given in good faith to "MOVE" the word, not to languish in a bank account. It was given, so that it could be given to those in need. But why should this surprise me...? (shakes head sadly)

Corps were supposed to be handed back files relating to themselves after they had graduated for ten years. We were told we might be surprised by some of the things in them - letters and such like, where people had written [to the Prez] about great things we had done. Of course, they could hand back some things...but who would know if there was other stuff? And how could you say that the information in the file hadn't been stored by some means (microfiche, to start with; maybe digitally, later). I recall LCM getting over-excited once about some "cop out" Corps who at their ten-year anniversary had the cheek to ask for their file back. He was quite vocal in his contempt for this person. I believe his gist was that it was a blessing and privilege to be given your file, to see the things people had recorded about you over the years. And it wasn't for some cop-out to have that blessing. He never said what became of the files of "cop-outs" after ten years, whether they were destroyed or nay. (What did they do, have a symbolic burning in the lake of fire, LOL?) Even if he said they were destroyed, who was witness? We all took their word for everything, never expecting them to lie to us or try to deceive us. Nobody has sent or given me mine... After ten years, it would have been the sledgehammer blow that did for me, probably. Life already wasn't worth living. Now? ...you know, I really don't care. Their opinion of me just doesn't matter to me. I know what God thinks of me. That is worth knowing.

"You can't go beyond what you've been taught." "If you need answers, please write: The Teacher, PO Box ###, New Knoxville..." Don't even consider:

It was my house group last night. There were only about 10 of us. We discuss questions (prepared by the preacher) on the sermon, and anything else that arises. It can be lively, interesting, and goes off on interesting tangents. To my enormous surprise, one of the men there, a lovely older man, John, talked about abuse in a church that he had belonged to, and he said that he'd been "excommunicated." He was banned from that church and also from any kind of housegroup. (This is a wonderfully kind, meek, committed man and when he prays aloud you can hear the deep love-relationship he has with God.) He bumped into the "minister" some time later and told him he forgave him. The minister's face went all kinds of red and he sputtered and was enraged. He couldn't take the forgiveness. How sad. I think the apology meant a lot to John, too, even though the incident took place many years ago and he is well and truly over it. But for some of us at the housegroup, where they hadn't seen this sort of stuff (much), it really didn't mean anything and they wondered whether Paul had the "right" to apologize on behalf of abuse by others. I said, if it was only for me, it was worthwhile; that's when John told his story. Of the ten there - two (inc me) are cult survivors; one had been "excommunicated"; one had walked out from his (RC) church because of doctrinal issues; one is the associate pastor, who saw much legalism in his previous church; one was married to a stern legalistic minister (now divorced). That's just what I know; others are there for other reasons, and others of the group (who weren't there last night) have other experiences. But what an enormous legacy of control/abuse. That apology surely was needed.

Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets. At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed, Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this: I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized! It was a spontaneous thing: the sermon is posted on the internet and the church is big enough that we have two identical services back to back in the morning. He didn’t say this the first time round, only at the second service, that I attended. Perhaps because of the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and my own earlier post on this, just wanting an apology – this was so appropriate, so wonderful. By this time, tears were leaking out of my eyes in a significant way. It was tears of thankfulness to my Father, tears of love and grace, tears of joy. I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI. But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it. I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone there who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy! To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it. I am not the only cult escapee in this congregation. I know there are at least two Plymouth Brethren from different groups; don’t know who else, and there are other people who have come from legalistic church backgrounds of all denominations. Paul knows the damage that can be done. Suggest if you want to comment on the apology, you do so on this thread and not on the WayGB thread

Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets. At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed, Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this: I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized! It was a spontaneous thing: the sermon is posted on the internet and the church is big enough that we have two identical services back to back in the morning. He didn’t say this the first time round, only at the second service, that I attended. Perhaps because of the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and my own earlier post on this, just wanting an apology – this was so appropriate, so wonderful. By this time, tears were leaking out of my eyes in a significant way. It was tears of thankfulness to my Father, tears of love and grace, tears of joy. I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI. But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it. I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone at TWI who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy! To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it. I am not the only cult escapee in this congregation. I know there are at least two Plymouth Brethren from different groups; don’t know who else, and there are other people who have come from legalistic church backgrounds of all denominations. Paul knows the damage that can be done. Suggest if you want to comment on this apology (as opposed to commenting abotu WayGB) you do so on the other thread.

Hmm, does J0hn R3ynolds monitor this site I wonder. I really liked and respected J0hn. I thought he was a great guy. I knew he was tight with H0ward. I couldn't believe he would know of H0ward's "indiscretions" (or LCM's, come to that) and not be in their faces about their off the word behavior. Then he made it to Trustee for a little while. I thought maybe he had stepped down as Trustee because he couldn't stand the dishonesty, but was one of those who thought they could do good from the inside, ie, do more good by staying. Though as a Trustee he would have significant "clout" to effect change. But then I had a conversation with one of LCM's sex victims and she told me what J0hn's actions were at a meeting where she was "confronted". And what his actions were not. He didn't take her part one bit; he was right in there supporting LCM. To people monitoring this site who are still in - you really might try looking and listening in your heart of hearts. It is not protecting the household to sit there like three brass monkeys, "see all, hear all, say nowt." May I recommend a re-read of Ezekiel 33? And you might find that many of the household have already looked for themselves and fled from "Zion" already because they see the imminent doom approaching.

Y'all are very cruel. There are innies who look in here and it is right they protect their families from further abuse. Some of them are working to get their families out. If, like Jeff, you have a spouse who is still very much "in," it's appropriate to conceal yourself. We all know how marriages have been broken up and one partner completely villified. But for those who monitor the site looking for dirt - all I can say is, wake up and smell the roses. Have you a conscience seared with a hot iron? Surely you don't think the reports on GSC are all completely fabricated? Exaggerated, some of them, perhaps, but there is a consistent thread running through them. Why don't you do what we ask, please, and just apologize? It would go so very far towards healing the hurt. TWI might be "softer and kinder" or whatever words you want to use nowadays, but those words don't seem to extend to "sorry" and "how can we help you?" and "we did wrongly; we repent." This would be a great place to post a corporate apology. You would, of course, get a huge amount of flak. And a lot of disbelief. But you will not be beaten, threatened, or physically assaulted. It takes humility, to say SORRY, and it takes removing the plank from your own eye, to see that EVERYONE is a little faulty and we're all just doing our best. Are you still too proud?

Catcup, sorry for the loss of your friend. I had misread your first post and had assumed she had died a while ago. Psalms 116:15 (New Living Translation) The LORD's loved ones are precious to him; it grieves him when they die. You could also publish the full obit in the Cafe's forum In Memoriam, as well. Probably a lot of people who post here also know her.

Now here's a thought. (a) Maybe, if TWI did want it back...they could simply buy it back. Got to be less expensive and more certain than engaging lawyers and the hassle and delay of proving their case, if indeed they do have one. (Can't believe an offer of even $500 would be declined. Or even $50.) and (b) Maybe (if the seller is hanging out for a larger amount) the seller knows this and sees it as a way of getting back some of the ABS donated over the years, that wasn't used for the purpose for which it was intended but was used for perpetrating the lifestyle of the rich and infamous? (Edited because for some reason the (b) was printed as the copyright symbol :huh: )

Do you know why he didn't honour this last request? With the ref to TWI - is he one who has been hurt by them (directly or indirectly)? (If so, perhaps that bit could have been edited to read just a little differently). I wonder if it would be appropriate for you to post a slightly amended version on the anniversary of her death, in the In Memoriam section of the local newspaper. That way, at least some recognition of what she stood for would still be publicly announced.

Bravo P@ul A//en for standing up to LCM and getting his wife back. Now there's a man of God, in a way that those super-spiritual men of God leaders never were. Stood up for what was right and proper. Fetched her back, like Hosea.

No, if property is stolen, it stays stolen. Caveat emptor. You can only sell with as good a title as you yourself have. At present, the item still seems to be on offer...