Twinky

A lot of archaeological data does not align with the chronology of the Bible either. Nor do "documentary records" that exist in other contemporary cultures. Does that make the Bible untrue? In error rather than inerrant? Maybe in some things our all-too-finite understanding are lacking. Once people believed that this planet was the center of the universe and everything revolved around it, quite literally. This was based on their Biblical understanding. It was also believed that the Earth was completely flat and there was an "edge" some place that might be fallen off. Yet that does not negate the fact that this round planet is actually here and so far as we are currently aware is the only planet capable of supporting life (as we know it). And the further study now available means that anyone holding to those old beliefs today would be laughed at. Rather than looking at the Bible as an inerrant [historical] record, we really have to face up to it being, in fact, not being wholly accurate. That leaves us free to examine the truth or otherwise of what we might call "the heart behind the words". Larger truths, not myths, folklore, or misattributions. Some events are compressed or symbolic. In the same way that a good historical novel can bring life to the bare facts of a period of time, so the Bible can bring "life" to the lives of people in and through whom God worked. If you've prayed for and seen the power of God at work - you know that there's something there. This planet and we ourselves aren't just some cosmic accident. We need to understand God and the Bible bigger, wider, and deeper. {For the avoidance of doubt: I am not saying that the Bible is fiction!) edited for grammar

Hey Cindy! Can I have some of that, too, please?

Please carry on! This is something I myself am still wrestling with. In a professional sphere where critical thinking skills are vital, all mine are (even now) still not very sharp. At one time immediately post-TWI, they were completely out of the window but they really need honing. Mine were crushed by being told, every time I asked a question, "You're leaning to your own understaning/that's five senses stuff." T-Bone has done a lot of stuff about this and has made some good recommendations in the past which I am following through on. No doubt he will post later on this thread. I found a book in my local library called something like Do you know what you think? which had lots of yes/no answers and then analyzed logical fallacies and moral/ethical dilemmas. It was very good and there is an associated website - if I find it, I'll post.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. So, if you willingly sacrifice yourself - say, you are the last in a dangerous place, "holding the fort" while your friends/colleagues escape, knowing that you yourself would not escape but that death was certain - would that be suicide? What about a soldier in a war situation? What where someone is suffering from a terminal and very painful illness? If they manage to kill themselves and die a month before the illness would have killed them - is that a sin? TWI would say that they did not believe to be made whole. That seems a fatuous and belittling answer. Judas went out and "hanged himself" but there's no record that anyone jumped up and down and said, "devil spirits" - they just got on and did what they believed was necessary - appointing another to take his place. Back up a bit. Is despair a sin? Because that's why people commit (a "leading" word) suicide. Or not permitting one's burden to be shared, not talking about the problem? Would not a greater sin be not noticing someone's despair? If it is a sin, Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of the world. Of which suicide would be just one of trillions and gazillions. Does God "take" life? 1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (JC) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I thought death was an enemy of God's, not one of his blessings.

What I don't understand is why Doctrinal is hidden away in the dungeon like something to be ashamed of. It's not with the other forums like ATW or Open. This should be a great place to discuss in particular some of the stuff we were taught in PFAL that we are now turning over in our minds; and to discuss new stuff. But what I have seen is people who think they know it all or being superior; or people who are just derisive. And many who drag a subject Off Topic. It's hard to discuss some stuff within churches because they don't know where we're coming from and it doesn't fit their own theology so they think it's crazy anyway. Surely Doctrinal is part of the Cafe self-help group just as much as other forums? As Oakspear says (and he sits the other side of the Cafe from me), he wants to know how he got fooled, how he was reeled in by Wierwillism. Have we ceased questing after Truth [as we see it] and quest after Trash instead? (edited to add Oak's exact words)

Yes, Dot, I know you were joking But they still look like they're having fun. What was it, falling down drunk? Must be over the two-drink limit

Some interesting stuff on John Knapp's website. Did anyone see the article on Secondary Narcissism (what looks like a very honest post from John) and relate it to the immense desire of some ex-TWI leadership to set up their own little organizations? Is starting an anti-cult organization like starting one's own religious organization (= cult)? Which may well be what whoever started this thread was thinking about. Except that the former sometimes seeks control disguised as freedom (STFI); and the latter seems to be seeking freedom. http://knappfamilycounseling.com/2ndnarcissism.html

Hard to make friends, too, no skills left. TWI and no doubt other groups practised "mark and avoid" (M&A) where people were cast out with all sorts of horribly slanderous things said about them, often to their faces and always behind their backs. These people are terribly cut off, and may have gone through immense separation trauma, at least to begin with. This type of "lightbulb" doesn't want to change, it wants to get back in the box where it came from . Perhaps like your JW client. This lightbulb only knows it needs help coping with life as it has become. But no doubt you know that! PS no attributions, just help these people! :)

Is there something on TWI on the Knapp website? Posts suggest yes, but I can't see it. As well as the list of "problems" that people may suffer from - perversely, as well as difficulty in trusting, I found I became too ready to trust other Christians. You know, the sort of "instant friends" we got with TWI. Too open where being more circumspect might have been an advantage. John: You have some interesting links on your page. You might feel inclined to add the Cafe's address - or maybe just give it to any exTWI who approach you. The Cafe has been immensely healing to so many ex TWI people, to see that whatever they are dealing with really isn't just their problem but is common to many others over a long period of time. They are already well on the way to healing if they are seeking your help. Whatever it takes to get them sound-minded again... The recent leaver (especially involuntarily) may well consider you "possessed" by devil spirits and would never contact you.

Well, the Pentecostals are a jolly sight more animated than the SLOW (Singing Ladies of the Way). Have fun there if you go, Dot. Remember, "We worship one God/ Jesus is his name" so you might need to renew your mind a bit.

All the best in your new life, George. Enjoy whatever you find to do. :)

That might apply in that location. For the rest of us...it's just another day. Anyway, maybe the people in Washington UK are in an odd way celebrating the departure of the troublesome child, the colonies? (ducking for cover )

Welcome, you will find a lot of different opinions here and some that for the time being you may find difficult. You might find it helpful to PM JavaJane, who is also a recent escapee who was raised in TWI. You can send a PM by clicking on the name, or looking under My Controls near the top of the page.

Life assurance is always good for people who have dependants. Nothing can compensate for the loss of a spouse or parent, but there is no need to compound difficulties by adding financial problems. If a husband dies, leavinga wife with small children, the wife may not be able to work (especially if she hasn't had a paying job for a while) but she and the children still need to live. If a wife dies leaving a husband with small children, assuming he has a job, he may be able to use any funds to help pay for care for the children while he is at work. If anyone has a mortgage (gasp!), how will the debt be paid if there is only one income (or even no income)? No-one would wish their nearest and dearest to lose the house as well! The rest of the family may have to re-home in due course but that should not be forced upon them at a difficult time. If one is simply a single person with no dependants, life assurance would only benefit any beneficiaries under a will so you need to think who they are and why you would want them to benefit from your death. And then there is the person who is a millionaire (or better) who has so much money that it would be impossible to spend it all. Such a person (or their family) may not need life assurance. But posts here suggest that most visitors to the cafe are not in that category! Since you raise this question, can I just add one thing, only slightly off topic: Make a Will. Or if you have one, review it (review every 5 years or after every significant life change, anyway). Make sure that the people you want to have your "leavings" are the ones who will actually inherit. If you are living with someone you are not legally married to, this is especially important.

You might find it helpful as well to consider your own pre-TWI background. If that included verbal abuse or belittling, you have a harder pattern to get out of. If you had a kind and gentle upbringing, you have lots of happier experiences to review and understand that's the way it ought to have been. Remember that not all "unbelievers" are "copped out" or "possessed" and some of them are genuinely kind and compassionate.

(((Lucy))) Ugh. Guess they were just renewing their minds. Thanks for speaking out now.

Extracts from JAL's letter... Given that I was one of the top ministry leaders from 1967-1987, I speak with experiential knowledge… Yes, there was more doctrinal error than I ever realized while I was in TWI, and there was corresponding practical error that became more evil than most of us involved ever imagined. He says this, yet he also says he was a “top leader”? Well if he was such a top leader, why didn’t he pick up on the “doctrinal error” and the practical error while he was in “top leadership” there? Yes, many precious people were terribly abused. Yes, there was dishonesty about Scripture, there was plagiarism, and there was rampant sexual sin, all of which contributed to many people choosing to turn away from God and His Word. Yes, this happened. Yes, that happened. Okay, let’s forget about it now and brush it under the carpet. This really belittles the injuries, physical and mental, caused to so many over such a prolonged period. Perhaps worst of all, a golden opportunity to make known the Word of God, as it had not been known since the first century, was squandered…when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word? Well, plenty of other times. And John had a significant part in the squandering. Let’s not forget, and when else were such people so systematically abused? The Way. It was. What was it? First and foremost, it was, from about 1955-1987, the only place I know of where anyone could hear the amount of truth of the Word of God that we heard. Sorry, how big is that ego? See the end date? He attributes everything he knows to VPW (let’s say, pre-fog years/pre-PoP) and nothing to LCM. “Anyone” could hear??? In large part because God led Victor Paul Wierwille to the work of E.W. Bullinger, whose approach to Scripture was virtually unique. That is what allowed Wierwille, and thus TWI to an even greater degree, thanks to the quality men and women with research ability whom it attracted, to put the Word together like it had not been known since the first century Church. Just a slight bending of the truth here. …To a degree, we became more like hearers of the Word than doers, and often deceived our selves. “To a degree” – compromising, still not fully accepting his part in it, minimizing or rationalizing what was actually done. Why did God have a need for The Way International? Actually, He didn’t. But He did have a need for any group of people who would make known what, or close to what, the Apostle Paul taught once the whole of what we now read in the Church Epistles had been unfolded to him. What Paul taught, as understood by TWI. Many church groups also believe they teach what Paul taught. There’s that ego again; we’re right, you’re wrong. … even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a Trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, water baptism is relevant, and maybe even that the Bible is not absolute truth. Frankly I would rather be with a bunch of trinitarians who believe all the above and who practice loving kindness to other people than a bunch of people who have “true Christian doctrine” and use it to abuse and control other people. Ephesians is the apex of the Church Epistles (the primary curriculum for Christian living), Except for Eph 5:2-5, of course. Oh, you can include verse 6 in that as well. Another major truth we learned in TWI, which is unknown to most Christians, … See, we still have special private knowledge! Like me, you may know of some ministries that do teach some of these truths, - …"some," note. Many of which are offshoots… - but I submit that until 1987 there was nowhere other than TWI to find all of them taught as accurately as they were there. That is why The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement. Accuracy is so subjective, knowing what we know now. Things weren’t accurately lived within TWI so they are unlikely to be accurately lived by this particular offshoot. Like the wheat and the tares growing up together, tremendous truth and egregious evil shared the ministry platform. As a “top leader”, JAL was responsible for keeping the ground free of tares to the best extent possible; and then ensuring that good seed was planted in it. Before sowing a crop, any farmer or gardener prepares the ground and gets rid of the big and pernicious weeds. When the next year’s crop is sown, the sower ensures that the seeds are good and what he expects to harvest. The wise sower does not keep planting in ground full of weeds but gets rid of them. Neither does he plant weeds. You have a ministry in the Body of Christ, and he who is the Head longs to help you fulfill that calling. Thanks for that, many of us are healed or healing but find the Lord Jesus in some place where JAL is not. Who says we aren’t fulfilling our calling? Along with me, you will one day stand before our precious Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward you according to how you have lived your life as a Christian. In essence, he will ask each of us something like this: “What did you do with what you knew?” I just don’t wanna hear what some people will have to respond.

This does not ring with compassion or sincere apology, but rather, with same-old, same-old. Very much like damage control. No acknowledgment of plagiarism, just that TWI pointed the way. And this: "The Way International stands out on the spectrum of Church history as an amazingly significant Christian movement." Time will tell. How significant will it be in 100 years time? Still it seems that TWI is getting the glory - not God.

I Cor 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 1 Cor 11: 1 Be ye followers of me , even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. Phil 3: 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 1 Thess 1: 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you. White Dove: Do you believe these verses? See, we are to follow the word and conduct of those who are our spiritual leaders. And we ourselves are to teach it to others by word and example. May I ask how many women you have sexually abused? (sorry, sexually healed) If none – why not?

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the lawsuit papers, even print off the "final judgment" and show Steff. (You could download it to your computer and email it as an attachment.). That's a document of public record - not just some stuff posted by who-knows? on a website. Courts are not easily deceived and searching questions were asked. That judgment relates to some preliminary findings of the court. As a result of the court's findings, TWI settled the lawsuits before going to court for a full hearing, because they couldn't bear any more of their dirty laundry to be hung out in public. Sometimes court proceedings are settled prior to trial as a matter of commercial expedency - it's cheaper to pay up or apologize or whatever is required, than to take a hit of any more costs against you, even if you are "right" and the other party is "wrong". Sometimes a settlement is made because the evidence one way or the other is simply too much to resist and a court would be bound to find against you. In these proceedings, the latter applies. The settlement was made because the evidence produced to that point was so damning that TWI couldn't do damage-control any longer. They got rid of the obvious problem (LCM) but they still haven't dealt with the less obvious problem (those who were in the know but are with TWI, like Rosalie Rivenbark). If exposing LCM and RFR is picking on VPW then so be it. The organization is what VPW taught it to be.

DWBH, you said you had been deposed. I'm wondering if you have a copy of any affidavit [deposition] you made and which you can attach. You were not a party to the proceedings, merely a witness, so the gag order would not apply to you.

Lecithin? What does that do for cats? How much needs sprinkling on their food, how often? They love dry food. One of my friends calls Tuxedo "The Dustbin" because she is always eating. They like wet food out of sachets but they are expensive. They like Felix sachets so I bought some Felix in tins, same variety...unfortunately it appears that the tinned types are highly poisonous to black cats so they were unable to eat it. However obviously not poisonous to the silver cat next door which had no such difficulties. I have dosed my cat Twinky in New Zealand with worm tablets by (originally) smearing the worm tablet with Marmite and putting it with dry food (I figured Marmite smells a bit like cat biscuits). We had to use the Marmite trick to start with but now he will simply eat all his dry stuff and then eat the tablet. I can't imagine worming and de-fleaing these two. That would require handling them to some extent, even with Frontline on the nape of the neck. And I have bad experience of what their teeth and claws can do. So that's another reason for keeping them in for a little while longer.While they are indoors, they have no opportunity to bring parasites home. But who knows, Tuxy is enjoying getting fondled so much that she even prefers it to food. That's really saying something. She threw herself on her side this morning exposing her soft underbelly so that's a huge leap forward in confidence and trust.

Dooj, thanks, I'll see what I can find. If it makes Crypto's coat glossy, Tuxy will be glow in the dark. It will be interesting trying to dose them with anything. They get a few drops of Rock Rose or Mimulus in their drinking water and that's all. Oldies - is that your cat? His nose is so squashed in!! But he doesn't seem shy. Like the brown eyes. BNIS - Thanks for the cat repellant suggestion. I tried it but she just sat on top of it and peed anyway. :( But getting rid of the rug seems to have fixed the problem. Thanks for the suggestion.

Oh, and I removed my red rug. It seems Tuxy had wet it much more than I had realised with her once a day mesage. Even the floor under the carpet reeked. I have thoroughly cleansed the floor and now have a new rug. No misbehaviour so far after nearly two weeks. Musta been stating her case to some other cat. Maybe that's why she has suddenly relaxed and got fussy with me?

It is with great joy in my heart that I can say I have almost got a pet cat. And the other is coming along. They are both madly keen on feathers - you know, the odd feather you will see lying in a garden or on a path where a bird has preened itself. I took them a hawk feather and they loved it and ate it completely. Since then they have had a number of other feathers, usually grey, probably from gulls or pigeons. These are well liked but not as much as the hawk’s. They eat the end that sticks in tbe bird straight away but not so much the feathery bit. A dog trainer told me that I should try stroking along the cats’ backs with a feather to get them used to touch. I have tried this but it has been difficult. They are both so jumpy. Especially Tuxedo, who is seriously agitated at any kind of touch, anywhere on her body. So imagine my surprise when Tuxy of her own volition on Monday decided she wanted to be fondled! I’d picked up a feather to play with her and she sniffed it and had a little gnaw at it and then kept pushing her head underneath the stem of the feather so that my fingers were over her forehead. Well, you don’t decline the offer, do you? So I fondled her head, her ears, the nape of her neck, and gradually she has allowed me to stroke her whole length and down her flanks, not quite her belly yet but she rolls over on the floor so I can do her sides and will roll on her back quickly. Sometimes she has her eyes half closed in real blissed-out fashion. This has been a consistent pattern of behaviour now for several days. Each day she gets a little bolder and a little more permissive of what she will allow and how long she will allow it. She purrs with pleasure as well. Usually I have to use the subterfuge of the feather to get her started but then she will just accept my hand. Hey, if she needs to “fool herself” with the feather, I’m not complaining!! Once I was fondling her, stroking her side while she had thrown herself on the floor, and she was thoroughly enjoying it. She turned to look at what was causing this pleasurable sensation on her side, saw my hand and did a real “scared cat” jump – one minute lying on the floor and the next second two inches in the air. Really comical! Crypto watches all this with bemusement. She has however allowed me to fondle her head with the feather a couple of times and occasionally lets me run a hand along her back as she walks away. No prolonged fondling session and she doesn’t hang about near me yet (well she does, but just out of arm’s reach) but she watches intensely what Tuxy is doing. Tuxedo’s coat is so soft and silky and gleams with health. It’s really beautiful. Crypto’s coat feels rough and dry and does not gleam or lay flat along her body but rather sticks out slightly, not in a fluffy way but a bit hunched up. They have the same diet and share the same food bowl (by choice). I don’t know that Crypto gets enough to eat but there is plenty available for her. Maybe as she continues to settle and enjoy life, her coat quality will improve. It’s been a long slog but finally it seems we are “getting there.” Just as I was on the verge of sending them back as there had been no progress.