Twinky

Rachel: by all means re-post what I have posted using the same scriptures from KJV if that is what you prefer. I invite you to consider the content (+heart) not the precise words. You seem determined to pick a fight. I am not fighting, arguing or anything else. Just ... asking. Kindly reply politely or not at all. Ex-Wayfers have seen too much abuse. Let's not add to it. If I offended you by what I posted in response ot someone else (as you say), I'm sorry. Perhaps that person can respond if offended - or are you the same person? I welcome considered comments. Plese keep this thread civil :-)

Of course you are both soooo right, Bride and Rachel. Rachel, you do not need to be insulting. This is not About the Way - it's Doctrinal, and if you prefer "a good row" you can stay in About The Way. I must have over a dozen different versions of the Bible at home. I have read KJV so very long that it is too familiar. I read The Message occasionally because it gives suuuuch a different picture BUT if you go back and read it in KJV or a more tight translation you see what it is getting at. I chose to use The Message not because it is good but because it breaks out of the KJV/TWI mold - sometimes it's so eyebrow-raising that it makes me take another look at KJV or anything else. It's not my Bible of choice. My invitation is to think outside the box for a while. But if you prefer not to, that's fine.

I’d urge you to think again about responses on this thread. Look at the last action of Jesus towards the apostles: John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put him in complete charge of everything, that he came from God and was on his way back to God. 4 So he got up from the supper table, set aside his robe, and put on an apron. 5 Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the feet of the disciples, drying them with his apron. 6 When he got to Simon Peter, Peter said, "Master, you wash my feet?" 7 Jesus answered, "You don't understand now what I'm doing, but it will be clear enough to you later." ... 12 After he had finished washing their feet, he took his robe, put it back on, and went back to his place at the table. 13 You address me as 'Teacher' and 'Master,' and rightly so. That is what I am. 14 So if I, the Master and Teacher, washed your feet, you must now wash each other's feet. 15 I've laid down a pattern for you. What I've done, you do. 16 I'm only pointing out the obvious. A servant is not ranked above his master; an employee doesn't give orders to the employer. 17 If you understand what I'm telling you, act like it - and live a blessed life.” The apostles didn’t understand this business about clean and unclean, no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, and real servanthood. We see how religious Peter is in Acts 10: 10 Peter got hungry and started thinking about lunch. While lunch was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw the skies open up. Something that looked like a huge blanket lowered by ropes at its four corners settled on the ground. 12 Every kind of animal and reptile and bird you could think of was on it. 13 Then a voice came: "Go to it, Peter - kill and eat." 14 Peter said, "Oh, no, Lord. I've never so much as tasted food that was not kosher." 15 The voice came a second time: "If God says it's okay, it's okay." 16 This happened three times, and then the blanket was pulled back up into the skies. …. (So in spite of the last example of footwashing by Jesus; and in spite of previous teaching about what goes into the mouth does not defile – Peter still didn’t “get it.” In fact, he's quite indignant that he should be asked to step outside his cultural values.) 28 Peter addressed [the household of Cornelius], "You know, I'm sure that this is highly irregular. Jews just don't do this - visit and relax with people of another race. But God has just shown me that no race is better than any other… [bless his heart - how many times had he been shown this previously??] 34 Peter fairly exploded with his good news: "It's God's own truth, nothing could be plainer: God plays no favorites! 35 It makes no difference who you are or where you're from - if you want God and are ready to do as he says, the door is open. 36 The Message he sent to the children of Israel - that through Jesus Christ everything is being put together again - well, he's doing it everywhere, among everyone. Acts 11: 17 So I ask you: If God gave the same exact gift to them as to us when we believed in the Master Jesus Christ, how could I object to God?" 18 Hearing it all laid out like that, they quieted down. And then, as it sank in, they started praising God. "It's really happened! God has broken through to the other nations, opened them up to Life!" (Maybe they are beginning to understand…) 19 Those who had been scattered by the persecution triggered by Stephen's death traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, but they were still only speaking and dealing with their fellow Jews. 20 Then some of the men from Cyprus and Cyrene who had come to Antioch started talking to Greeks, giving them the Message of the Master Jesus. 21 God was pleased with what they were doing and put his stamp of approval on it - quite a number of the Greeks believed and turned to the Master. Bride of JC says that the persecution was allowed of God: what I see is that it happened, but it still didn’t achieve all that was commanded. This makes it clear there is still no outreach to non-Jews. And the Jewish members of the church are suspicious of those who do reach outside their own culture: 22 When the church in Jerusalem got wind of this, they sent Barnabas to Antioch to check on things. 23 As soon as he arrived, he saw that God was behind and in it all. He threw himself in with them, got behind them, urging them to stay with it the rest of their lives. 24 He was a good man that way, enthusiastic and confident in the Holy Spirit's ways. The community grew large and strong in the Master. Clearly Barnabas sees how it is supposed to be. He sees there is a lot of difference between what was going on in Jerusalem, and what he was seeing in Antioch. He wouldn’t have stayed otherwise; he would have gone straight back to Jerusalem. A bit like seeing the scriptures taught today in a “live” church, and comparing that with the scriptures in a church where they go through the motions. As I have read more and more with this question/idea in mind, it seems to me more and more that what I first posted is correct. We can get so "holier than thou" about everything that people (who are written about in the Bible) did was correct - yeah, right. Lots of their mistakes are written about in there too. There's a time and a place for setting up centralised teaching places (school of the prophets? The work in Antioch?) but right after Pentecost was not the time (proclaiming the message was more urgent) nor the place (Jerusalem was full of legalists ready to attack). I think traveling fast and light, as Paul did on his many missionary journeys, was what the LJC intended these apostles to do. Sometimes he is noted as having had companions; no reason to suppose that they didn’t have wives and children too. The apostles could have left their wives and kids (if necessary) back in Galilee (sufficiently far from Jerusalem), broadcast the News, and then return to Galilee. Or taken the wives and kids (if still young) and gone as a family. Why not? (Family WoW.) There are even now many missionary families moving the word today in many countries. Certainly the apostles’ wives would have seen as much of Jesus as many of the husbands, entertained the LJC in their homes, heard his teachings - consider Mary and Martha. Why shouldn't the wives of the apostles also be able to teach and share the News? They would have outreach in places their menfolk couldn't. From a PM to me: T-Bone: I agree that every detail worked on Saul’s hard heart too. But it didn’t need to include the death of Stephen. Precious in the sight of the lord is the death of any of his people. God was big enough to work on Saul’s meanness outside of Stephen’s death. The LJC could have appeared to him at some other time. Rachel: it was the Greeks who were complaining they were neglected, not Hebrews. Not clear whether these were people who normally lived in or close to Jerusalem, or whether they were also visitors from parts round about come for the big Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) and stayed. Or even other visitors, traders and passers-by who came and never left. None of this, of course, “proves” anything. I’m just offering a different take on a familiar section of scripture and wondering if there aren’t lessons to be learned. We mustn’t consider that everything that we read about in the Bible really is the will of God, no matter how Godly it appears. There’s a shedload of examples of that in both OT and NT.

(Rascal, have you noticed it is not women who attack on the sex and abortion issues? We know - gnosko - what was done to us, individually and as a group.) (But that's another thread, please take it up elsewhere if anyone wants to argue.) It is good to bring to the light the works of darkness and expose them for what they are. The commitment to a person (fetus) has got to be greater than the commitment to a program devised of men - especially one devised for a man's glorification. You know that to be told that God required this of you is COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS WILL which is that you be fruitful and multiply. Examining in the light cannot completely repair the damage (can't bring back an aborted fetus). But it does relieve the silence and guilt of darkness.

Me too. At church nobody kisses anybody except people who seem to have known each other a long time. In some cultures people do greet with a kiss - others don't. I see this as an instruction to greet in a civil and culturally appropriate manner. Not an instruction that you MUST kiss believers in greeting. In some cultures that would in fact be highly offensive (Saudi Arabia? Pakistan?). But it is nice, and welcoming ...

This is clearly stirring up some very unpleasant memories for some people and I am very sorry if I have prodded anybody's pain that was slumbering below the surface. The teaching was wrong, stupid, inconsiderate, so anti-God and part of the general belittling of women. Pregnant women KNOW they have life growing within them. Even if it isn't "breath life" yet. Tiny fetuses can now be seen via scans making little movements, stretches, yawns, sucking fingers - it's not alive??? An older fetus when it kicks and can be seen moving - isn't alive??? Pregnant whilst in residence? Well that would be a no-no, and very difficult to do the program whilst either pregnant or with a tiny babe, but the couple should have been given LoA and then returned to the Family Corps (that's if they still wanted to be Corps) Child "a trick of Satan"? "Move the Word unencumbered"? (The words "steal, kill and destroy" come to mind.) New meaning of "Suffer the little children to come unto me." "A dozen or so little mogsters crawling about" - now that might be a reason (ha ha) but even the little mogsters if taught proper behavior could learn to be decent kids and adults. (Sorry, being flip here.) Good thing God is big on forgiveness, both for those who endured the loss of a baby and for those who condoned/supported it, like niKa, with financial help. Not sure what forgiveness is available to those who actively taught this devilish doctrine.

Hey Excie, you don't have to go in that horrible old motor coach In fact you could stand outside it with a flaming sword and make damn sure nobody else does either.

Oops double post

Yeah, I do that too sometimes (though not usually giving a reason why I raise an idea). Some of the responses from the church home group I go to border on the incredulous and oftentimes several of the group "jump" on me trying to say how wrong an idea is. I weigh their possible indoctrination/group think against everything I know from elsewhere. Other times, they think I am making some very wise comment. As a whole, although they are mature Christians of many years standing, with a deep love and confidence in God/LJC, they don't know as much of the Bible that most TWI folks that have been around only a few months would know. But they don't know it disjointedly either (like TWI folks). And I go to a really good church where I hear a lot of stuff that completely knocks out TWI teaching. For instance last week there was a teaching on humility and the heart of a leader and following a leader etc etc but the vicar is sooo humble and is always the first to point out his own errors and use them as a teaching point for what he is saying. The qas a Q&A session at the end and someone asked him how it would go if someone in the congregation disagreed with him. His answer was so kind and tender. And there are proper ways of sorting out disagreements within the church. That's washing with the Word. Seeing it lived in a different way. I don't always agree with what's taught, but I have the option to disagree, to think about it for myself, to see if there is anything from Waydaze that is relevant, and to make up my own mind[/i (now that I've got it back).

This was a nice thread - so thought I'd bring it back up as there are a number of new people hanging out in the Cafe since the last post. This was a nice thread - so thought I'd bring it back up as there are a number of new people hanging out in the Cafe since the last post.

Hey can I be Rosie too? I got 100% too but it was hardly a challenge. Mount up with wngs as ... butterflies (LOL) Hah, three of us - a holy Tri-nutty?

I think you're making my point, here. If the apostles had got out and done what they were commanded to do, there may not have been a great persecution such that the word got spread everywhere. It would already have been everywhere. Your word: "forced". The love of God does not "force" us but exhorts, commands, encourages - leaves it to our freewill to obey. As Jesus exhorted, commanded, encouraged, his apostles. But did they match that with obedience? Precise obedience?

You really have to consider what the apostles did in light of what Paul did. And also JC. Previously, we've seen Jesus on his travels wandering up and down the country. He finds himself in Samaria and spends a long time talking to a woman (way beyond cultural boundaries). Because of her witness, many believed. Jesus knew Samaria was ready to receive the Word. Ready to receive news of him. Ready to receive the great post-Pentecost message. John 4: 31 In the meantime, the disciples pressed him, "Rabbi, eat. Aren't you going to eat?" 32 He told them, "I have food to eat you know nothing about." 33 The disciples were puzzled. "Who could have brought him food?" 34 Jesus said, "The food that keeps me going is that I do the will of the One who sent me, finishing the work he started. 35 As you look around right now, wouldn't you say that in about four months it will be time to harvest? Well, I'm telling you to open your eyes and take a good look at what's right in front of you. These Samaritan fields are ripe. It's harvest time! 36 "The Harvester isn't waiting. He's taking his pay, gathering in this grain that's ripe for eternal life. Now the Sower is arm in arm with the Harvester, triumphant. 37 That's the truth of the saying, 'This one sows, that one harvests.' 38 I sent you to harvest a field you never worked. Without lifting a finger, you have walked in on a field worked long and hard by others." 39 Many of the Samaritans from that village committed themselves to him because of the woman's witness: " These are people considered unbelievers by the Jews. So JC and the apostles/disciples stayed there just a little while, and then moved on. No record of JC or anyone else revisiting when he/they next passed through that area. Now, why do you think in his last instruction to the apostles, he told them to get out to Samaria? Because it was ready! And they had seen it with their own eyes! But they wouldn't (even now) move out of their own cultural taboos. Later: Paul moved around the land of the Gentiles, setting up home churches, instructing some people very fully, and then appointing leaders. Then he moved on, starting more home fellowships elsewhere. He came back frequently to check on how they were doing, and wrote letters to the churches exhorting and warning them. Now this is among people who did not even have the OT to begin with. They worshiped idols, debated endlessly, etc, but did not have the understanding that the Jews did. Yet they turned wholeheartedly to what Paul was teaching. I do think this is perhaps what JC had in mind for the apostles to do. I'm suggesting that the apostles hanging around in Jerusalem is perhaps a little in the light of Paul wilfully going to Jerusalem ('cos it's so holy you know) despite warnings that ill-treatment awaited him there. He didn't do what God wanted him to. Yet God still blessed and honored his commitment and gave him great revelation, even whilst he was in prison in Rome. Don't forget the apostles lived in Galilee. That's their family home. Where their homes were. They were only in Jerusalem on a temporary visit, for a major festival. Maybe with, maybe without, their families. Doesn't say they decamped permanently from Galilee. Yet they just stayed and stayed. Read what JC commanded them; don't argue with me. Perhaps he intended their families to remain in Galilee whilst they made journeys elsewhere. Like Paul did. I'm just saying - have another look. Think about it. What's the bigger picture?

Now Ham that's just the sort of thing that was found in that wood in next-door's property adjacent to Founders Hall. (Gosh, what a time that was, clearing that out, when TWI bought it!) VPW2 would be too young to remember, though.

Here’s a verse which always seemed a little “off” to me (all quotes from The Message, which I read occasionally for its freshness and vitality). Acts 6 1 During this time, as the disciples were increasing in numbers by leaps and bounds, hard feelings developed among the Greek-speaking believers - "Hellenists" - toward the Hebrew-speaking believers because their widows were being discriminated against in the daily food lines. 2 So the Twelve called a meeting of the disciples. They said, "It wouldn't be right for us to abandon our responsibilities for preaching and teaching the Word of God to help with the care of the poor. 3 So, friends, choose seven men from among you whom everyone trusts, men full of the Holy Spirit and good sense, and we'll assign them this task. 4 Meanwhile, we'll stick to our assigned tasks of prayer and speaking God's Word." Last night this verse suddenly pinged into new vision (as it were). I have never seen or heard anything taught like this so offer it for considered opinion. I could be completely off the wall. So right from the beginning, the apostles didn’t want to get involved with the poor. Excuse me, hadn’t they spent enough time with Jesus, walking the streets, talking to all and sundry? (Doesn’t this sound a bit like the Pope refusing to leave the Vatican, other church leaders preferring to stay in their palaces, houses and comfort places; even wannabe ministry leaders living in log cabins? But I don’t want to derail my own thread here!) Here is the actual commission, the last words of the Lord Jesus Christ to them: Acts 1 4 As they met and ate meals together, he told them that they were on no account to leave Jerusalem but "must wait for what the Father promised: the promise you heard from me. 5 John baptized in water; you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit. And soon." 6 When they were together for the last time they asked, "Master, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel now? Is this the time?" 7 He told them, "You don't get to know the time. Timing is the Father's business. 8 What you'll get is the Holy Spirit. And when the Holy Spirit comes on you, you will be able to be my witnesses in Jerusalem, all over Judea and Samaria, even to the ends of the world." 9 These were his last words. So. They're told to wait for a few days – get the gift of holy spirit – then they are to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and elsewhere. They weren’t told to wait around afterwards. Weren’t told to stay in Jerusalem. Were told to “get out there.” So why do we find them quite a long time later – still in Jerusalem? Acts 2 41 That day about three thousand took him at his word, were baptized and were signed up. 42 They committed themselves to the teaching of the apostles, the life together, the common meal, and the prayers. 43 Everyone around was in awe - all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! 44 And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. 45 They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person's need was met. 46 They followed a daily discipline of worship in the Temple followed by meals at home, every meal a celebration, exuberant and joyful, 47 as they praised God. People in general liked what they saw. Every day their number grew as God added those who were saved. This activity took time. Yes, they had 3,000 new converts and more added daily. But they built a routine, and took time to sell property. Here we are in Acts 4: 32 The whole congregation of believers was united as one - one heart, one mind! They didn't even claim ownership of their own possessions. No one said, "That's mine; you can't have it." They shared everything. 33 The apostles gave powerful witness to the resurrection of the Master Jesus, and grace was on all of them. 34 And so it turned out that not a person among them was needy. Those who owned fields or houses sold them and brought the price of the sale 35 to the apostles and made an offering of it. The apostles then distributed it according to each person's need. 36 Joseph, called by the apostles "Barnabas" (which means "Son of Comfort"), a Levite born in Cyprus, 37 sold a field that he owned, brought the money, and made an offering of it to the apostles. More selling of property and lands. The time this might have taken… And clearly, it’s not that the apostles were the only ones who knew the Word at it was lately revealed. There were other instructed ones and they could have taught. Here we see Joseph/Barnabas who was clearly instructed and able to follow the teachings. He could have worked with some of the new converts in Jerusalem. He probably wasn’t the only one. It also seems the apostles didn’t carry out their self-assigned task of teaching properly either. There is big persecution after Stephen’s death (how much longer after the first Pentecost is this?). Believers are scattered all over. Phillip witnesses and opens up Samaria, but although a wonderful man, he himself perhaps wasn’t fully instructed: Acts 8: 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem received the report that Samaria had accepted God's Message, they sent Peter and John down 15 to pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 Up to this point they had only been baptized in the name of the Master Jesus; the Holy Spirit hadn't yet fallen on them. 17 Then the apostles laid their hands on them and they did receive the Holy Spirit. Why hadn’t the apostles taught Phillip that far? Keeping knowledge to themselves? Didn’t fully share with Phillip? Phillip didn’t understand? We can speculate about that. Meanwhile, the apostles go back to Jerusalem, witnessing as they go: 25 And with that, the apostles were on their way, continuing to witness and spread the Message of God's salvation, preaching in every Samaritan town they passed through on their return to Jerusalem. And much later we find Peter and John getting legalistic and refusing to eat with Gentiles when there are Jews around…. They also tell Paul that they will stick with witnessing to the Jews and refuse to go to the Gentiles, telling him that his ministry. I think there may well be a reason why Jesus didn’t tell them to stick around in Jerusalem. Do the business, then get out into the rest of the country and the rest of the world, witnessing. Don’t stick in one place, no matter how good it all looks. JC knew the legalism there would kill their ministry, just as legalism had killed his earthly body. Sure, they moved with power, miracles happened, people were born again - it must have been an amazing and thrilling time. Maybe, just maybe, if they had moved on soon after Pentecost, having taught worthy converts what they needed to know – maybe, just maybe, things would have been very different. (You can be dead right but dead wrong!) Perhaps Stephen wouldn’t have been martyred. Perhaps Saul (Paul) wouldn’t have witnessed his death. Perhaps Paul wouldn’t have been converted and gone on to receive the revelation that he did. Perhaps Peter or John would have received it instead. God is big enough to get His Word out there. The Lord Jesus Christ is big enough to take care of his church.

You know,I'd really like to see some of these folks out of their own comfort zones... ...working in an AIDS clinic in Africa ...working in a slum in Delhi or Bombay ...on food supply in Darfur ...building accommodation in some country recently hit by a hurricane, tsunami or earthquake ...hauling food and building supplies in Kashmir ...working as a volunteer in a drug or alcohol rehab program in any big inner city ...as a volunteer teacher aide in an inner city school ...as a hospital aide on Friday night Some of these might be paid (minimally) Most would be volunteer posts Might do a jolly sight more good than prodding a fire pit on an Ohio farm

Just bringing this up to the top for the benefit of some recent visitors to the Cafe.

I started a poll on why people left. Think I'll just bring it back up to the top.

From The Writing Machine (see post above) Well maybe the prophecy came true - he is shedding new light on his generation. His writings are dispelling some of the myths and Wierwille-ology and indoctrination. Some of that new light is shed upon those of us who were Wayfers ignorant of the goings-on in the Family Corps. The prophecy just is not quite coming out the way the prophet (??) expected it to. (edited for typo)

WW, you are getting off track. What I asked was, whether TWI paid for leadership-conceived abortions. Seems like they paid for non-leadership abortions as well. (sick sick sick) Now the little end represents what you put in And the big end represents what God blesses you with ...And the blood dripping from the middle represents your abundant sharing at work in the abortion clinic. So if someone conceived by VPW or LCM or the CC or the BC or the LC or the other "spiritual heavies"- whose pocket paid to clean up the evidence?

(((AJern))) It must have been very difficult for you as a child. (It was difficult for adults!) You would have to learn to form proper relationships with people your own age and with the world at large, having yourself a very damaged background. Did you receive any counseling to help you learn "normal" reactions and responses? I'm sorry your marriage did not last. It must have been very difficult for your wife at times, unless she was also a Way-babe raised in the same cultural desert. Do your best with your kids, showing the love (and appropriate discipline) you didn't quite get yourself. The Cafe is a good place for you to vent your frustrations and to re-think your ideas. Your own perspective here is valuable.

I'm absolutely horrified. (((Rascal))) It's the equivalent of say 2 Kgs 6 (people eating their babies). See also Lam 2:20 Did they miss this bit? - Ps 127: 4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. And this one: Gen 1: 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth F6 upon the earth. Anyway back to the topic,

Too right sistah! I went Corps because I saw some wonderfully humble and helpful people, out and out committed, really striving to help. They had quality in their lives. Nobody, when I was considering Corps, told me it was to "toughen me up." They said it was difficult or hard work, but you expect that of any training course (my degree and subsequent professional training were all VERY hard work). It was once you got in that you were told it was "boot camp" for the first semester. And that you'd signed up for life (I thought - how foolish - that it was to train people and return them to their localities, to offer a greater depth of Word and be a twig coordinator there.) In my Corps, we were told we were so (...what? weak spiritually, was it?) that boot camp was extended to next semester. Then it was RoA set up (hard work but often fun). Same next year. Perpetual boot camp. Now the boot's on the other foot. Those boots are made for walking And that's just what they'll do One of these days these boots are gonna walk right over you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OU7Nezg7Ls

There have been a number of comments here about abortions being sanctioned or required by TWI. There have been intimations that some of these abortions have been because women have been abused by leaders at the top of TWI. Having also read of people who have been on staff who have not had any medical care paid for by TWI even though injuries have occured as a result of work-related accidents; and people who have been in rez and suffered injury (eg LEAD) and again who have not had medical care paid for by TWI, I'm left wondering: Who paid for these (leadership-conceived) abortions? Was it left to the couple (on the basis that it could have been the husband's fetus that was being aborted)? Was it left to the woman (if a single woman)? Or was this paid for by TWI? PLEASE NOTE: this is not a thread about whether abortion, and TWI's sanctioning of it, is right or wrong. It's about who paid the financial cost.