Twinky

It's telling that as Wayfers we "learned" a new language. Unfortunately that wasn't a language that broadened our minds, but one that restricted them. We've had a few threads here about "Way jargon and phraseology ("Would you be blessed to..." springs to mind - instead of, "would you be able to...," "please could you..." and so on). Not to mention some of the unusual uses of some words - the jargon. Sometimes I wonder if those who drop by here and other ex-Way sites have forgotten their "native language" and instead taken on board "Wayspeak" so thoroughly that they can no longer think outside those confines. Not only do they not have the skills, they don't have the vocabulary. It's probably time I re-read 1984,

Word studies, I now think, were a form of "busy-work" and encouraged so that we could show off to other people. "We know Greek and the original meaning of this word is ..." In reality, we never knew any Greek, just a smattering of a few words and if lucky a few points of grammar. It's often said that children who learn another language in school learn other ways of thinking, and thus the exercise is not so much learning the language as developing the brain to think in different ways. That might be true for those of us blessed with really good teachers who could convey those language subtleties. Children in bilingual households pick up both (or sometimes more than two) languages very easily. They quickly sort out the words and the grammar from each language, different though they may be. It's said that this really helps them develop wider thinking patterns. Would be interesting if someone has input on that. I've also heard it said that people who have known more than one language sometimes need to switch to "the other one" to be able to express themselves clearly. To a great extent language reflects the culture of whatever country it is. I have lived in several countries, and travelled in others, and at a critical phase when life was in a bad place for me, the way I got myself out of it was: if I were in XYZ country now, how would I handle this? Choosing to think in a different culture freed me to do something different. How true it is, that travel broadens the mind!

Whatever it is you guys are talking about now - you're sure to be confusing Mike!!

Good post, T-Bone. It's late, and I'm taking my cold off to bed shortly, but a few things occurred to me from what you said. Delight yourself in the LORD, and He will give you the desires of your heart. Ps 37:4 (in fact, the whole of this psalm is a great read, esp :3-7) Question: what are the desires of your heart? Your real desires? Health, wealth, family, home security (a roof over your head)? Is this where the desires of your heart are? "Set your affections on things above..." 1Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. (Col 3:1-4) (the rest of this chapter is pretty good, too!) Seriously, people. Do we live as though we are "seated in the heavenlies"? Do we enjoy our life, our "hidden life"? Do we set our hearts on things above, and look, wait expectantly, for the return of the lord? Do we earnestly seek after the magnification of God, the creator of the universe, and his son Jesus Christ? Do we really endeavour, with all our heart, mind, strength and soul, to bring about the kingdom of heaven on earth, by living in a risen-with-Christ manner? By bringing about what we can of: "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." (You know, that "forbidden" prayer)? Do we do God's will? Do we tell our friends, neighbours, colleagues, about the richness (not the cash) that is available by believing God and His many promises? Or are we --- afraid to offend? I think we will find the true riches when we live like this, a bit more from Colossians: Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed [prosperity doctrine!!!], which is idolatry []. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.b 7When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. 8But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. ... 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, for to this you were called as members of one body. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. If we can manage to live like this (and with other desirable traits discussed in the Bible, but no time to go into here), we'll be excellent friends, parents, children, employees --- if we're excellent employees, then riches (a good pay packet) will come our way. Yeah, I know. I'm still doing my feeble best to do these things. I fail miserably sometimes, often; but sometimes I get it right. Anyway, I'd rather follow after a heart of compassion, being kind and gentle (patience is another thing!), and being forgiving etc than follow any fake "believing" as commanded by the strange gods of PFAL, orange books, and prosperity doctrines. Ps 81:8-9. Now for a hot shower, a warm bed - and perhaps a nip of whisky. For medicinal purposes, you understand.

The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. I'm pretty sure that no matter what version, when written, what history: all will point to honouring God, the creator and sustainer of the universe; to Jesus Christ his son, who is the way, the truth and the life; and to the life we are supposed to lead - one of respect (awe) for God and respect towards our fellow human beings (if not to mention the whole planet and all there is in it. Jesus's summation of "Love God and love your fellow man" isn't likely to have changed much since it was first said 2000 years ago, and here translated a mere 500 years ago: [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. or as NIV, much more recent, puts it this way: Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” But even then, some got nitpicky - even with Jesus ("Oh, I don't understand the words - who's my neighbour? Let's do some research!") And this, as a way of living life (from, for a change, the Berean study Bible - many other versions available). In some versions the words are slightly different due to inexact translations expressing the thoughts behind the words, but the thoughts themselves are unchanged. Gal 5:19-22. 19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. No. No variant reading of the above affects any material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.

I miss Steve's thoughtful posts, but as is common here, we can still debate the issue even though the original poster is long gone. And what you say, T-Bone, is worthwhile and very interesting. Just don't expect Steve to respond!

increases prosperity All about context, isn't it. And knowing what the words meant at the time. "Prosper" doesn't mean "get a load of money." It means more, THRIVE. To do well for oneself as a whole. 3 John 1:2 Parallel: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (biblehub.com) may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ... You could say, on the road. Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings? Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life? Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord. For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not. THRIVE, people. THRIVE. 1 Timothy 6:9-11, 6 9 But they that will be rich [and chase prosperity doctrines] fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows [the exact opposite of thriving]. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after [get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.

real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises. And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see. With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.

You might be interested in this book. It's a really interesting read. Available s/hand for a very modest amount on Ebay and Amazon.

4.7K???? Maybe some of those are bots or some such.

Thank you, Rocky. Somebody here can read, and "gets it."

Ah, WW, what has Pillai got to do with the 12 Steps? Especially in the Christian context. Reminder. Here is Step 1. I think in our recovery from TWI, all of us had to start from this place. Our separation from God - either before we ever heard of TWI, or quite possibly because of TWI. I assure you - my life had become so unmanageable that I was near suicidal when they kicked me out. Except that I had so little energy and motivation that I couldn't even do that. Profound depression, PTSD, who knows. Thank God he rescued me and all is very, very well now. Pity I couldn't have listened to him earlier and got out of the misery of the post-TWI state years before.

You guys are waaaay off topic.

Thanks, TBone.

Actually, this is what I asked about: "I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addiction to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc). "The sermon series is based on a book called Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr" Rohr, a Franciscan friar, posits that we are all addicted. But for all of us, our addiction is to sin, and we love to sin, it's an illness in us. He posits using the Twelve Steps to overcome our addiction to sin and self. Here is one version of the Christian 12 steps: The Christian 12 Step program and Biblical Principles, as used in Christian Rehab Centers for faith based 12 Step recovery programs around the world. STEP ONE is about recognizing our brokenness We admitted we were powerless over the effects of our separation from God – that our lives had become unmanageable I know nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out (ROMANS 7:18) STEP TWO is about the birth of faith in us Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (PHILLIPIANS 2:13) STEP THREE involves a decision to let God be in charge of our lives Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God – which is your spiritual worship. (ROMANS 12:1) STEP FOUR involves self-examination Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord. (LAMANTATIONS 3:40) STEP FIVE is the discipline of confession Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed (JAMES 5:16) STEP SIX is an inner transformation sometimes called repentance Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up (JAMES 4:10) STEP SEVEN involves the transformation or purification of our character Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1JOHN 1:9) STEP EIGHT involves examining our relationships and preparing ourselves to make amends Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Do to others as you would have them do to you. (LUKE 6:31) STEP NINE is the discipline of making amends Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (MATTHEW 5:23-24) STEP TEN is about maintaining progress in recovery Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall. (1 CORINTHIANS 10:12) STEP ELEVEN involves the spiritual disciplines of prayer and meditation Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. (COLOSSIANS 3:16) STEP TWELVE is about ministry Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, as you also may be tempted. (GALATIANS 6:1) So, while it may be interesting to discuss the AA 12 Steps programme, the real thing we need to be discussing is the 12 steps we need to take in our own spiritual recovery: our addiction to self, ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions and possessions (things), or even people. For some here, it may mean considering our addiction to heresies, to false teachings, whether from TWI, or Roman Catholicism, or any other religious teaching. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and the God and creator of the universe. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and Jesus Christ, in all his sacrifice and glory. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and living our lives in a spiritual manner, bearing witness to God in our words and our actions. As well as getting rid of ego and self-centredness, we need to examine ourselves and get rid of "nameable" things: hurt, jealousy, lack of forgiveness, thoughts of revenge, living in the past. We need to stop vaunting our own intellectual prowess (vaunting our knowledge above God). We need to stop being greedy, hoarding, and chasing money, etc (all of which show lack of dependence on God's provision). All of these, and many other things, can become "gods" to us, obsessions that get in the way of a true, living, spiritual reality. Instead, we need to consider who God says he is, and to try to deepen our own understanding of Him. This will involve our intellectual abilities - but always bring those back to understanding who and what God is, and what God requires of us. It involves our physical abilities - using what we have to do, to take actions in line with what God wants. That is what "being meek to the Word" means. The 12 steps, whether Rohr's Christian version, or AA's, or Drug Awareness, or any other entity's version, are only tools to help us on our spiritual journey. Too much debate on them, and the exact meaning of the words expressing the steps, veers off into an intellectual curiosity that distracts from actually paying attention and doing what those steps express, which is getting past our selves and into the freedom of our dependence on God.

Scary, isn't it! But I think Mike's talking about the AA Blue Book. Maybe for clarity it could be called AA-Blue to distinguish it from PFAL-Blue?

Great post, T-Bone. One worthy of being split off and reposted in part or whole as a separate thread on the power of prayer, or of redeemed life, or some such, rather than letting it get lost on this thread.

How big is TWI now? How many attend? Too big. Even if there were only the four directors - too big. Go find somewhere real, people. Leave this sham organisation.

"...given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word..." That's madness! Torture! Tied together? Locked up? Interrogated? What bloody ego trip was that? Hands up all those who think VPW would have survived something like that! Without complaining!

Do not mistake honesty for bitterness. Do not mistake people's recounting of what happened to them, as bitterness. I suppose we could ask you what your definition is (in this context) of "bitterness." But that would simply invite you to drag the topic even more off topic and away from a serious look at TWI.

Or is it rather, that YOU have no idea how to address the points people here have been presenting to you for well over a decade?

Interesting, huh, about who they want to come back. Ex-leaders. To lead others into the ditch. Not "Ex-members," who, with their money, have gone elsewhere. So who does TWI want? Just former Corps (the ones labelled DFA, or the ones labelled M&A?). Or are they after the ones who've set up splinter groups (so that they can hijack anything those people have already achieved - pinch "their" people, like they pinched Doop's and Heefner's)? What's interesting, if you think about the people here, is that there are plenty of ex-Corps from many decades. Could we all be welcome (cough)? Only those from corps 1-10? 10-16 (or whenever VPW died)? Those from the time of LCM's tenure? Later ones? We were all trained the same - yet differently. My experiences as later Corps aren't the same as those of, say, Skyrider, or earlier Corps. And yet all of us suffered significant indoctrination, and personal abuse, mental beating-up, etc, etc. Personally, I think it was much worse under LCM; it seems from what I've heard that the freedoms allowed by VPW were beyond imagining, in the post-fog reign of terror instigated by LCM.

Is precisely some of the people I work with. One way is to demonstrate by actions, not a thing TWI was very good at. Arguments? Huh? Who cares what answer you got? You get the answer by living the life. Your bit about "meekly learn" is straight out of the TWI playbook. DO NOT EVER try that one on me. The amount of abuse (that's ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE, that TWI meted out to so very many under the guise of them not being "meek," is beyond measure. Just shut it, Mike.

This popped up in my Facebook feed this morning and immediately I felt I had to share it with this group. Maybe there's someone here who really needs to hear this. Watch | Facebook (<5 mins) Don't let your life get paralysed by someone else's negativity.

Were neither Doop nor Heefner very well educated in the scriptures, then? I thought they were supposed to have their own powerful Christian ministries that VPW somehow hijacked? Were Doop and Heefner simple, untrained, but passionate believers, swayed by this ordained minister who showed interest in them?